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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


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2 hours ago, Othin said:

I hope they finally break from the CYL September tradition. Last year was silly enough.

 

I would be fine if they delayed this possible CYL 4 September refinement for at least until the anniversary. Save it for February 2023, and I would be fine by that. (Even though it's still early since they will get refined before a lot of Book 4 heroes, if not all of them).

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5 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I would be fine if they delayed this possible CYL 4 September refinement for at least until the anniversary. Save it for February 2023, and I would be fine by that. (Even though it's still early since they will get refined before a lot of Book 4 heroes, if not all of them).

February 2023 would mean we'd have time for about 15 more regular Book 3 refines, leaving about 14 still to go.

In fairness, looking back, there were 15 regular Book 2 refines missing at the time of the CYL3 refines. (Including Ophelia and Surtr.) Which I also thought was very silly at the time. But at least by then they'd cleared out all the regular 5*s from before CYL2.

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Just now, Othin said:

February 2023 would mean we'd have time for about 15 more regular Book 3 refines, leaving about 14 still to go.

In fairness, looking back, there were 15 regular Book 2 refines missing at the time of the CYL3 refines. (Including Ophelia and Surtr.) Which I also thought was very silly at the time. But at least by then they'd cleared out all the regular 5*s from before CYL2.

At least Book 4 Seasonals will have started at that point.

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I'm iffy on whether or not CYL 4 is going to get a refine this year. As I've mentioned before, I consider CYL 4 to be the start of modern weapons. However, Moon Gradivus and Wind Parthia are both pretty borderline. Moon Gradivus is behind other Distant Counter weapons due to lacking a stat boost, and Wind Parthia still somewhat suffers from the trend of older bows being too conservative. Dark Spikes T could also feasibly get a refine without breaking it, though it would likely be weaker than other recent refines, but Flower Hauteclere is definitely up to par with other modern weapons. If it gets a refine, it would have to be quite small.

 

Anyways, the usual translation note:

Wanderer Blade is "流浪の鋭剣" (rurō no eiken), "Wanderer's Sharp Sword". The localization team's allergy to the word "sword" strikes again.

 

And hopes and predictions:

Rutger: Wanderer Blade

Base weapon is Slaying Edge.

Rutger has almost identical stats to Athena with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers other than a sizable advantage in HP (+7/+0/+1/+1/-1). Our most recent free-to-play sword infantry are Kamui (-2/+4/+0/+5/-4 over Rutger) and Guy (-2/+3/+1/+2/-1), all stat comparisons again with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers.

Keeping his base weapon's Slaying effect and getting a +6 Atk/Spd boost are pretty much a given, though there is a chance he'll get +5 to all stats instead due to his base kit coming with Atk/Def Bond and Vantage, despite both skills being awful for his stat spread and role. The condition on the stat boost is probably Blow-or-Unity, again due to having a Bond skill on his base kit.

As for additional effects, make a dartboard with Dodge, Tempo, Flashing Blade, Spd-based damage, and maybe a few other effects and throw some darts at it, though I do expect some additional source of damage due to Rutger's slightly lower Atk stat.

Keaton: Wolfskin Fang

Base effect is the Meister effect. It has the standard beast transform condition and the old beast infantry transform effect.

Keaton is currently untied for the highest base Atk of all beast infantry at 48 with an Atk Asset and max Dragonflowers.

Updating the beast infantry transform effect is a given. Other than that, it's almost certainly getting a boost to at least Atk and Def (one of +6 Atk/Def, +5 to all stats, or -6 Atk/Def to the opponent).

I can see it getting Vantage on the refine in order to encourage keeping Keaton's default Special Spiral on his B slot.

if they want to get really fancy, it would be really cool for the refine to have 5 HP regeneration after combat in order to perfectly offset the recoil from Distant Storm or just give him En Garde.

Summer Laegjarn: Worldsea Wave

Base effect is Desperation if HP is 50% or higher and a permanent +3 Spd.

Worldsea Wave is literally identical to unrefined Holsety. Laegjarn has -1/-1 offenses compared to Levn with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers. Holsety's refine added +8 Atk/Spd, nullified Levn's Penalties to Atk/Spd and the opponent's Bonuses to Atk/Spd.

Worldsea Wave is also similar to Shadow Sword, which received a refine much more recently, with the only difference between the two base weapons being that Worldsea Wave has +3 Spd whereas Shadow Sword has the Slaying effect as their permanent stat effects. Laegjarn has +1/-5 offenses compared to Fallen Mareeta with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers (+1/-2 if you count Worldsea Wave's permanent +3 Spd). Shadow Sword's refine added +10 Atk/Spd, the offensive half of Tempo, and grants either +8 Atk or +8 Spd depending on a stat comparison.

Like Holsety and Shadow Sword, the base effect's condition is likely to be change to if HP is 25% or higher. Given that Laegjarn is a Special Hero, I'm expecting Worldsea Wave's refine to be at least as strong as Shadow Sword's.

Laegjarn's current problems are her relatively lower Spd compared to her competition, her lack of access to Null Follow-Up, and the fact that she has no reliable means of guaranteeing a Special activation in every round of combat. Levn has access to Special Spiral and Time's Pulse, the former he has on his base kit, and Mareeta has the Slaying effect on her weapon.

I can see it getting either +5 or +6 Atk/Spd on the base effect and then another +5 or +6 on the refine effect. Ideally, it would also get the offensive half of Null Follow-Up and some effect to guarantee a Special activation in every round of combat (Slaying effect, Brave effect, Pulse effect, +1 Special charge rate, etc.).

And then some other effect to make it at least as good as Shadow Sword.

Naga: Divine Breath

Base effect is +3 to all stats for each dragon or unit with effective damage against dragons within 2 spaces (max +9), effective damage against dragons, and a permanent +3 Atk.

Divine Fang+ is getting an additional effect that grants +6 Atk/Spd as a Bonus to Naga and allies within 2 spaces. Naga's remix also gives her Dive-Bomb to replace Chill Spd.

Divine Breath should allow Naga to teleport to any allied dragon or allied unit with effective damage against dragons. Given that she is getting Dive-Bomb with her remix, it looks like they want to give her more offensive presence, and this would make it much easier to activate the weapon's base effect.

Since Divine Fang+ is now granting Bonuses, it's possible that the refine could grant additional stats or effects based on the total Bonuses on Naga or on nearby allies.

Since all of Naga's remix updates are offensive, it's unlikely she'll get any defensive effects on her weapon, so the obligatory stat boost will probably be +6 Atk/Spd.

Hilda: Freikugel

Base effect grants +6 Atk/Spd if there are no allies with more Def within 2 spaces, +4 Atk/Spd to allies within 2 spaces that have more Def than Hilda, and a permanent +3 Spd.

Hilda is very awkward to use. Her Def is slightly below average for a melee unit at 31 with maximum Dragonflowers. In order to get the stat boost for herself, she typically has to either stay away from the rest of the team or move first (which does not sound in character for her). Melee units can move in after her to get the stat boost from her, but ranged units usually don't have high enough Def to do so.

I have no idea what they're going to do with the base effect on this weapon, as the current conditions are just too ungainly to work with compared both to more recent units and the strength of the effects themselves.

Hilda is a pretty generically offensive unit, so there's any number of skill effects they could give her. Throw some more darts at the dartboard you previously made for Rutger.

Maybe an effect to reference Apocalyptic Flame or her Crest.

Legendary Alm: Luna Arc

Base effect deals damage equal to 25% of the opponent's Def and has a permanent +3 Spd.

Lunar Flash II gains the ability to nullify percentage damage reduction. Alm's remix also give him Time's Pulse.

I'm expecting this refine to be relatively tame given that Alm is still a pretty good unit, largely due to Lunar Flash being a really good Special skill.

Neimi (+0/+4 offenses over Alm) is the most recent bow infantry, and her weapon effectively gives her +17/8/5/5 with no other combat effects. Ulir (+4/+4) is the current gold standard for bow infantry, and her weapon gives her +6/6/0/0, the Slaying effect, the offensive half of Tempo, and nullifies her Penalties to Atk/Spd.

With the obligatory +6 Atk/Spd that it will surely get, Luna Arc will put Alm 3 Spd behind Neimi and 1 Spd behind Ulir. This leaves enough room that there could potentially be another boost to Spd. The remaining difference in Atk compared to Neimi is already effectively covered by Luna Arc's base effect.

Alm comes with Null Follow-Up in his base kit, but it's often replaced with Desperation on player-controlled teams for survivability. With Alm getting Time's Pulse from his remix, which allows him to activate Lunar Flash if the opponent does not counterattack, it makes sense to give him the Desperation effect (high or low HP works) on his weapon. The offensive half of Tempo would also be nice to promote Null Follow-Up over Spd/Def Tempo.

If they really want to tread on Ulir's toes some more, Alm could nullify the opponent's Bonuses to Spd and Def, which would be useful for him in the Arena and would again promote his default Null Follow-Up over Lull Spd/Def.

Caineghis: Lion King Fang

Base effect is +4 to all stats on enemy phase and a permanent +3 Atk. It has the standard beast transform condition and the standard beast armor transform effect.

Make a new dartboard with all of the effects that enemy-phase armors want (excluding everything already he has on his base kit) and throw some darts. Caineghis has Fortune in Radiant Dawn, so Guard would make sense.

+5 to all stats or -6 Atk/Def to the opponent are pretty likely for the obligatory stat boost, but it'll probably get an additional stat boost on top of that because Caineghis's Res is pretty far behind what you'd want of a Distant Counter armor these days.

Maybe it could also have some novel defensive effect like what Kjelle got.

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Why are people so certain the (legendary versions of the) Three Houses lords would get refines all at once? Considering there's at least three different versions of each character, staggering them out seems like it'd make way more sense. I understand the precedent for the CYL versions, but do we typically get legendary refines all at once? I don't think so.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Why are people so certain the (legendary versions of the) Three Houses lords would get refines all at once? Considering there's at least three different versions of each character, staggering them out seems like it'd make way more sense. I understand the precedent for the CYL versions, but do we typically get legendary refines all at once? I don't think so.

Did someone mention the legendary versions? I was talking about the originals.

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44 minutes ago, Othin said:

Did someone mention the legendary versions? I was talking about the originals.

Ah X[ I gues the originals are just so plain in my mind I erased them (despite tallying them in the number of alts). Still though the point kind of stands, I don't see much reason to expect them all at once. New refines sometimes group characters together, but theyre also typically pretty random.

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This batch is about what I expected (except for Hilda being the first TH refine), but I’ll still be bidding my time.

Just give me a good Haar refine next month IS so that I don’t need to give him a Seahorse Axe+. That is all I want. I don’t even care about the potential CYL4 refines when compared to Haar.

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Hilda is a better support unit with all stats+4 and follow-up denial, which I believe works on everyone on the map as long as she stays lazy?

Naga is a better support unit too with all stats+3, Atk/Spd+6 bonus buffs, player phase guaranteed follow-up, and dragon effectiveness whenever it is relevant.

Alm: Saint King can break walls a lot more effectively now with Tempo and Windsweep. I am kind of iffy on Time's Pulse, so I think Flashing Blade would be a better option for more consistent Special triggers within a turn, and you get more true damage.

Laegjarn: Burning Sun can opt for Sweep for more protection or Far Trace for more stats. Kind of meh in my opinion. Would not hurt to include true damage or more consistent Special triggers in my opinion.

Rutger can Galeforce. I guess he can super tank too.

Keaton can Counter-Vantage better now, which is not as relevant these days, and also Galeforce.

Caineghis wants Hardy Fighter, although I guess you can opt for Special Fighter too if you are using multiple copies of Nifl and/or Nifl: Tropical Ice God.

To me, I guess Alm: Saint King is the most exciting. Hilda and Naga are decent secondary support units after Flayns and Elimines (or the two Nifls for Laguz). Caineghis is another really good Far Save tank. Rutger, Keaton, and Laegjarn: Burning Sun are all alright, but nothing major.

Edited by XRay
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  • Rutger kind of just gets a bunch of stuff that Sword Infantries like having, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing I'm not sure that's exactly enough to make him "relevant."
  • Keaton's transformed effect was updated, which Tempo is always appreciated. The stat debuff and enemy bonus neutralization is great, and the accelerated special charge is great, though it doesn't really synergize that well with Bonfire without some form of out-of-combat Special charging (since two hits when combined with Vantage only means Bonfire will be fully charged) Overall it's as solid as a refine being given to a Meister weapon can be, I just... don't know if they noticed that the effect doesn't synergize with Keaton's base kit all that well.
  • Naga's base effect refine is... kinda unfortunate in my opinion. While it gives supportive effects now, the stat boost given to Naga only had it's effect trigger range increased, even though the triggers needed to trigger the effect did not change, and as for giving allies Dragon Effectiveness, that did not change at all, it's still only a 1-tile range trigger. So... I can't help but feel like the base effect didn't get any benefit at all.
    As for the refine, it's good. All Stat +4 and a slightly worse Dragon's Wrath 3-like effect isn't bad whatsoever. It's just... when combined with her base effect's refine and compared to past Remixes, it feels kinda meh. The supportive effects are always appreciated, but it kind of came at the expense of Naga's own powers.
  • Laeg's base effect is essentially the same that Forseti got, not that surprising. She can get a grand total of +20 Atk/Spd if she has at least a +6 boost to all stats and the opponent has at least one stat bonus. The Spd-based NFU is also appreciated when she otherwise doesn't have many ways to get the NFU effect, though I would like to note that it's technically a worse effect than if she were to get the NFU effect from Legendary Byleth or other such supportive effects (since they only need the unit's Spd to be higher at all, rather than being a whole 10 points higher)
  • Hilda's refine is solid. Her supportive game is actually not that bad, now that she grants enemy follow-up denial to her allies, and she gets a pretty sizable amount of damage reduction.
  • Caineghis almost totally shuts down AoE specials and goes really well with Hardy Fighter (what a coincidence I JUST got some fodder of that skill!), though it's kind of weird that the refine effect gives him a guaranteed follow-up when he already gets that from his base kit. (not complaining)
    I believe, if my math is right, that for him to get the highest bonus from 25% of his foe's attack -8, the enemy needs at least 72 Atk, which might be slightly harder to achieve if he is also LOWERING their Atk by 5... would have technically been better for him to be getting Atk/Def/Res +5. Then again, the lower their Atk the more likely he is to simply nullify all incoming damage just by being that much tankier, so works out either way.
  • Legendary Alm, in total, gets Atk/Spd +10, Tempo, the effect of Windsweep 1 minus the player follow-up denial, and continues to deal damage equal to 25% of the foes Def. Lunar Flash now also ignores non-special damage reduction, so in total his offensive game has improved.

Is it just me or have the Remixes felt slightly tamer lately? What happened to Legendary Marth becoming a massive statstick with basically guaranteed counterattack denial? Or Legendary Tiki being a speedy Far Save unit? Gunnthra being able to decimate anyone who dare be debuffed by her?

Edited by Xenomata
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As someone who really dislikes Alm, seeing him get these great refines kinda bugs me. Oh well.

Cool to see Caineghis get a nice refine that really separates him from Fallen Edelgard, though.

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32 minutes ago, Xenomata said:
  • Naga's base effect refine is... kinda unfortunate in my opinion. While it gives supportive effects now, the stat boost given to Naga only had it's effect trigger range increased, even though the triggers needed to trigger the effect did not change, and as for giving allies Dragon Effectiveness, that did not change at all, it's still only a 1-tile range trigger. So... I can't help but feel like the base effect didn't get any benefit at all.
  • As for the refine, it's good. All Stat +4 and a slightly worse Dragon's Wrath 3-like effect isn't bad whatsoever. It's just... when combined with her base effect's refine and compared to past Remixes, it feels kinda meh. The supportive effects are always appreciated, but it kind of came at the expense of Naga's own powers.

Yeah, I was really hoping Naga would get an effect that boosts the range of passive skills. Her C skill being only one range really hurts her and I've felt that since day 1. You're best off just using her on a team that already has Dragon effectiveness built in and replacing her C skill with drive attack.

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38 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

As for the refine, it's good. All Stat +4 and a slightly worse Dragon's Wrath 3-like effect isn't bad whatsoever.

Eehhh... Dragon's Wrath 3 is 20%. She has slightly better Dragon's Wrath 3 since hers is 25%.

I believe you probably thought Dragon's Wrath was 30% because of Duma's refinement or because of the Domain skills from Nifl and Múspell?

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10 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

It works on allies within 2 spaces of her.

Aw, that sucks. I think it could have been worded better with "At the start of ally's combat, if ally is within two spaces of unit" or something like that.

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51 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Eehhh... Dragon's Wrath 3 is 20%. She has slightly better Dragon's Wrath 3 since hers is 25%.

I believe you probably thought Dragon's Wrath was 30% because of Duma's refinement or because of the Domain skills from Nifl and Múspell?

...huh.
Yep, I got them mixed up.
In my (hopefully justified) defense, it's been so long since I seen the actual skill anywhere.

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Rutger: Wanderer Blade

Base effect is

  • Slaying effect
  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • If unit's Spd is higher than opponent's Spd:
      • +1 Special charge rate

Refine effect is

  • If HP is 25% or higher:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • Dodge 3

Compared to (non-Resplendent) Karla, Rutger still has only +1/-2 offenses with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers before accounting for Karla's Spd-based damage, which adds about 10-12 additional damage depending on how maxed out she is.

The most notable effect on his weapon is the +1 Special charge rate, which applies to both his own attacks and the opponent's attacks. In addition to getting Dodge on his weapon, it's pretty clear they're trying to make Rutger into a dual-phase unit, which at least gives him something to separate him from Karla and Fallen Mareeta. Additionally, he can actually viably run Aether as a functional Special.

Compared to Ascended Mareeta, Rutger has -1/+3 offenses with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers, and his Dodge is stronger and more reliable than Vital Astra, but he doesn't have Null Follow-Up on his weapon and doesn't have access to a free Ascended Asset.

Keaton: Wolfskin Fang

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent -5 Spd
  • Meister effect
  • Standard beast transform condition
  • New beast infantry transform effect (updated, previously old transform effect)

Refine effect is

  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or Stance condition:
    • -5 Atk/Def to opponent
    • Neutralizes opponent's Bonuses to Atk/Def
    • +1 Special charge rate on unit's attacks

-5 Atk/Def is a bit underwhelming since other units get -6 instead, but it's probably justifiable simply because he has a Meister weapon and the highest Atk of all all beast infantry.

The Special charge rate boost allows him to run Moonbow or Glimmer without the need for his default Special Spiral, which lets him run Vantage instead in his B slot, and Tempo on his transform effect prevents the opponent from stopping the Special activation. Unfortunately, being a beast unit, he doesn't have access to Vital Astra or Ruptured Sky, which means he's still stuck without a functional Special in the Arena.

It's a pretty conservative refine, but that's to be expected for a Meister weapon. But it does the job.

Summer Laegjarn: Worldsea Wave

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent +3 Spd
  • If HP is 25% or higher (updated, previously 50%):
    • +5 Atk/Spd (new)
    • Desperation effect

Refine effect is

  • With Blow-or-Unity condition:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • Increases Atk/Spd by 40% of total Bonuses on unit and opponent, max +10 (25 total Bonuses)
  • With Blow condition and if unit's Spd is at least 10 higher than opponent's Spd:
    • The offensive half of Null Follow-Up

Unfortunately, Laegjarn doesn't get an effect to guarantee a Special activation, but does get a huge boost to Spd and Null Follow-Up. She also gets the expected upgrade to her base effect's condition.

Before accounting for the stat boost due to Bonuses, Laegjarn now has +1/+4 offenses compared to Levn with a Spd Asset and max Dragonflowers and has +1/-2 offenses compared to Fallen Mareeta before accounting for the +8 Atk or +8 Spd from Shadow Sword's stat comparison.

Laegjarn gets the maximum stat boost from Bonuses when the total Bonuses on her and her opponent are at least 25, which is pretty easy to reach in the high Arena. Reaching a total of 24 is relatively easy outside of the Arena just from her own Bonuses. With a +9 Atk/Spd boost, she cleanly beats Levn with a +10/+13 difference, and hits +2/+7 over Fallen Mareeta if she gets her Atk boost or +10/-1 over Fallen Mareeta if she gets her Spd boost.

She didn't get everything she wanted, but she's definitely viable again.

Naga: Divine Breath

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent +3 Atk
  • Effective damage against dragons
  • Dragonstone common effect
  • +3 to all stats to allied dragons and allied units with effective damage against dragons within 4 spaces of unit (new)
  • +3 to all stats to unit for each allied dragon and allied unit with effective damage against dragons within 4 spaces of unit, max +9 (updated, previously 3 spaces)

Refine effect is

  • If there is at least one ally within 3 spaces:
    • +4 to all stats
    • 25% damage reduction on opponent's first attack
    • If unit's Atk is greater than opponent's Res:
      • Additional damage equal to 25% of the difference between unit's Atk and opponent's Res

Naga still seems confused. She got Dive-Bomb from her remix, but gets a damage reduction effect on the opponent's first attack on her refine. It's like they can't decide if they want to make her a dual-phase unit or a player-phase unit and just half-assed both.

Increasing the search range for her base effect's stat boost is pretty useful and makes it slightly easier to get her maximum boost, but it still requires her to have three allies that are either dragons or have effective damage against dragons, which is somewhat difficult to line up in Aether Raids unless you actually have dragons on the team. Unfortunately, we still don't have any particularly good Far Save dragons that can handle all of the recent bullshit that has been released.

The additional support effect is at least decent, and the additional damage is certainly welcome. In the end, as a Mythic Hero, it's good enough that she can provide decent support when she's a bonus unit.

Since they decided to increase her defensive stats even more, I don't really see the need to switch over to Dive-Bomb, so I'll be sticking with Wings of Mercy for the mobility.

Hilda: Freikugel

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent +3 Spd
  • At start of combat, if there is no ally with higher Def than unit within 2 spaces or Solo condition (updated, Solo condition is new):
    • +6 Atk/Spd
    • Additional damage equal to 10% of Spd (excluding AoE Specials)
  • At start of combat for ally within 2 spaces:
    • If that ally's Def is higher than unit's Def or if unit has not yet participated in combat during the current phase (updated, lazy Hilda condition is new):
      • +4 to all stats on that ally (updated, previously +4 Atk/Spd)
      • Prevents opponent's follow-up attack (new)

Refine effect is

  • If HP is 25% or higher:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • 40% damage reduction on opponent's first attack

Well, I guess that fixes Freikugel's base effect. Previously, Freikugel was best utilized if Hilda moved first during player phase. Obviously, that makes no sense. Now, it is fixed.

Hilda now gets +11 Atk/Spd on top of her permanent +3 Spd with a pretty lenient condition, which makes her by far the best offensive axe infantry in the game. The additional Spd-based damage is nice and essentially allows her to copy Karla to some extent, and the damage reduction on the opponent's first attack means she doesn't really need to give up her default Null Follow-Up for something like Frenzy.

The support effect being upgraded to +4 to all stats and preventing the opponent's follow-up attack is really nice, though staying within 2 spaces of Hilda on player phase can still be quite difficult.

Legendary Alm: Luna Arc

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent +3 Spd
  • Effective damage against fliers
  • With Blow-or-Unity condition (updated, Unity condition is new):
    • +5 Atk/Spd (new)
    • Additional damage equal to 25% of opponent's Def (including AoE Specials)

Refine effect is

  • If HP is 25% or higher:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • The offensive half of Tempo
    • If opponent is physical and unit's Spd is at least 5 higher than opponent's Spd:
      • Opponent cannot counterattack

As predicted, they gave him the offensive half of Tempo and a defensive effect. I wasn't expecting the defensive effect to once again be Windsweep, but I guess they really don't try to be original.

Other than that, Alm just gets +10 Atk/Spd, which once again puts him in contention for the best bow infantry. Alm is now -7/+1 offenses over Neimi, with the deficit in Atk made up for by Luna Arc's pseudo-Moonbow and Lunar Flash being better than anything Neimi has access to. Alm is +0/+3 over Ulir and again has Luna Arc's pseudo-Moonbow to boost damage. Ulir's defensive effect, however, is a bit more reliable as long as she can kill the opponent in one round of combat.

Caineghis: Lion King Fang

Base effect is updated:

  • Permanent +3 Atk
  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or Stance condition (updated, previously only Stance condition):
    • +4 to all stats
  • With Stance condition (new):
    • 70% damage reduction from AoE Specials
    • 70% damage reduction on opponent's follow-up attacks
  • Standard beast transform condition
  • Standard beast armor transform effect

Refine effect is

  • If HP is 25% or higher:
    • -5 Atk/Def to opponent
    • Guaranteed follow-up
    • If transformed:
      • Increases Atk/Def/Res by 25% of opponent's Atk at start of combat, minus 8, max +10 (72 Atk), min +0 (32 Atk)

Caineghis can now get rid of his default Vengeful Fighter and run either Hardy Fighter or Special Fighter.

Using him as a Far Save tank is still a bit awkward since he needs to be transformed to function, though Light season gives you access to Ash for mobility and Askr and Mila as non-human units that can help with remaining transformed.

The full stat boosts bring his defenses up to 57/53/49 with max merges, max Dragonflowers, a Res Asset, and only his weapon equipped before accounting for the additional stats from the opponent's Atk.

The most annoying units to tank right now are Harmonized Lysithea, who has 61+6 visible Atk, and Duo Chrom, who has 67+6 visible Atk.

Against Lysithea, Caineghis has +8 Res for 57 Res before skills and 68 Res with a Svalinn Shield A/R Far Save build. Lysithea typically gets an effective +21 Atk from skills and deals somewhere around 20 damage before Special activations, damage reduction, blessings, and any status effects that Caineghis has. (C Feud prevents Caineghis from getting support effects other than status effects.)

Against Duo Chrom, Caineghis has +10 Def for 63 Def before skills and 70 Def with a Svalinn Shield A/R Far Save build (because D/R is expensive). Chrom typically gets an effective +23 Atk from skills and deals somewhere around 26 damage before all of the other stuff, including team support this time. Chrom typically has Deadeye fully charged, so it should run into Sacred Cowl instead of nullifying Caineghis's damage reduction on follow-up attacks.

I'm not yet 100% convinced Caineghis is going to properly function as a Far Save tank. It might be required to run him on Light season with Askr to provide follow-up prevention since Lysithea doesn't have Null Follow-Up on her without team support, and Chrom is slow enough that it's possible to block his guaranteed follow-up with enough Spd stacking from teammates.

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2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Keaton's transformed effect was updated, which Tempo is always appreciated. The stat debuff and enemy bonus neutralization is great, and the accelerated special charge is great, though it doesn't really synergize that well with Bonfire without some form of out-of-combat Special charging (since two hits when combined with Vantage only means Bonfire will be fully charged) Overall it's as solid as a refine being given to a Meister weapon can be, I just... don't know if they noticed that the effect doesn't synergize with Keaton's base kit all that well.

Keaton looks like one of the units where you're intended to completely scrap his base kit (like Nailah). The refine plays into running Moonbow + Vantage over his default Draconic Aura + Special Spiral.

 

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I believe, if my math is right, that for him to get the highest bonus from 25% of his foe's attack -8, the enemy needs at least 72 Atk, which might be slightly harder to achieve if he is also LOWERING their Atk by 5... would have technically been better for him to be getting Atk/Def/Res +5. Then again, the lower their Atk the more likely he is to simply nullify all incoming damage just by being that much tankier, so works out either way.

The boost to Caineghis's stats is based on the opponent's Atk at the start of combat, so the in-combat penalty doesn't matter.

 

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Is it just me or have the Remixes felt slightly tamer lately? What happened to Legendary Marth becoming a massive statstick with basically guaranteed counterattack denial?

The units receiving remixes now are less outdated than previous units, so it makes sense that their upgrades aren't going to be as strong.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Aw, that sucks. I think it could have been worded better with "At the start of ally's combat, if ally is within two spaces of unit" or something like that.

As usual, you can blame the localization team.

The effect in Japanese reads:

周囲2マス以内の味方が戦闘開始時、
その味方の守備がスキル所持者より高い時、または、
スキル所持者が現在の
各軍ターン(自軍ターンまたは敵軍ターン)
で戦闘を行っていない時、
戦闘中、その味方の攻撃、速さ、守備、魔防+4、
敵は追撃不可

At start of combat for an ally within 2 spaces of unit,
if that ally's Def is greater than this skill's owner's Def or
if this skill's owner has not yet entered combat during the current phase,
during combat, grants +4 Atk/Spd/Def/Res to that ally and
foe cannot perform a follow-up attack.

It would also be nice if the localization team learned how to break up text into blocks instead of just vomiting everything out all at once. Technical writing is not the place for prose formatting. (This is why I've recently been putting my effect breakdowns in bulleted lists.)

Edited by Ice Dragon
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Hurts me a little to have to finally merge my +Spd Laegjarn into my Forma copy, but at least she's just base kit. Also hurts that my Forma never managed to pick up a better special than Blue Flame, but the Catch and the Far Trace are what really matter I suppose.

Aside from that, Alm is probably safe to spend on, but beyond that is iffy. Caineghis is +2 +Res but being a armoured unit on top of being a beast means he's extremely niche in terms of my playstyle. Naga despite being +1 +Spd is a unit I can't remember ever using, likewise Keaton who is +Atk but unmerged. Don't have Hilda and Rutger is irrelevant.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/8/2022 at 8:57 AM, Humanoid said:

but the Catch and the Far Trace are what really matter I suppose.

Even here I can't get away from how I forgot to get her Forma when her rotation ended... I hope we get unit reruns (or even a AHR style vote) for Hall of Forms so I can get her and H!Myrrh...

Unfortunately I don't have much else to say about the recent refines. Do people here think CYL4 will get them? If so, what do you think we'll get/ what would you like to see?

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40 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Do people here think CYL4 will get them? If so, what do you think we'll get/ what would you like to see?

I would prefer not, but I already expect CYL 4 refinements even though it's too early for them. (that was my opinion about CYL 3 last year, but oh well)

Edelgard will probably get Damage Reduction on first hit, for sure, to go with the damage reduction of Black Eagles Rule. I can see Dimitri getting Atk based damage, like the one from Atrocity, or since his Brave version is all about having high Def to trigger Blue Lions Rule he could have Askr's effect of reduction flat damage and dealing flat damage based on Def. I can see Claude getting Fallen Star effect, maybe like after combat if special triggered in that combat, and Tempo effect so he has better time triggering his special to heal. If Lysithea has a self damaging effect of 1 HP, like Winter Bernadetta, that would be good enough... Just to have a easier time triggering her tome. Extra damage when unit trigger special would also be good, as a reference to her crest (extra damage when crest triggers).

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