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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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8 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Yes, one is an actual tank used in AR, the rest are not. 

Bzzz! The correct answer is he's not a cavalry tank. Read the whole comment chain next time.

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Clive's new Lordly Lance bothers me in the same way as Frederick's Axe. The developers have been on and off with if effective damage is a free effect or not. As evident with Dauntless Lance, Rhomphaia, Selena's Blade, or Wing Sword, it's not a new thing where new units are getting effective damage and two or more additional effects or it's 5*-only units considering Caeda, Clair, and Selena are 3* to 4* summonable. Effective damage is a powerful thing, but unless a unit has dual effective damage, it's only going to work on one unit type. Then again, we have new weapons with effective damage and other powerful or utilitarian effects as well.

In Clive's case, Clive's Lance in Shadows of Valentia has the effects of Armorcrush, Lunge, and Wrath Strike. Lordly Lance has the Armorcrush part and Clive comes with Lunge. Wrath Strike would probably have been Death Blow. Sturdy Blow would have worked too. That would have been a neat way to give him all the effects of his lance in SoV for Heroes if you keep Lunge. The reality, though, is that for Clive, he only has effective damage against armors and the unique refinement only works on his support partner where it gives him and his support partner, Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3. That's good and all considering the raw amount of in combat stats he and his support partner can get, but Death/Sturdy Blow would have been a nice bonus too. Or someone like Florina or Oboro whose personal lances ended up with only effective damage against armors for the base effect and Close Spectrum for Florina or Close Def 3 for Oboro which kind of locks them into a specific role. There's nothing wrong with that, but it would have been nice if there was something else like maybe Florina could have had this weird resistance check Windsweep that could have extended to working on dragons as well where you could have her tag a melee unit safely and on enemy phase if the foe was still alive, allow Florina to have boosted stats through Close Spectrum. And a Guard effect would have worked well for Oboro or any of the tanky units who for some, didn't get that great of a unique refinement like Lukas and Sophia.

Before moving on to Mathilda, Clive having effective damage against armors, Death Blow, and the support effect would make Frederick's Axe look lacking despite the different weapon types and Frederick's access to boons and banes. So, let's give Frederick's Axe Fierce Stance for the base effect. Death Blow and Fierce Stance would have been hilarious as it effectively means Frederick would have Atk+6 in combat. With his high attack and effective damage against armors, he'd be able to smush armors on player phase and he'd likely survive a hit from a physical melee armor to smush them back on counter-hit. Either could be considered a free A passive as you could give him Death Blow 6 and Fierce Stance 6 with Death Blow 3 as his A passive and Fierce Stance 3 as his seal for Atk+12 in combat. A +Atk Frederick would have 66 Atk in combat and +10 would mean 70 Atk in combat; 38 (+Atk) + 16 Mt + 12 (DB6 and FS6) = 66. His resistance isn't good, but Distant Counter might work with a lot of resistance stacking and he can run Distant Def 3 as his seal for Atk+6 in combat and Def/Res+6 when attacked by ranged units. Distant Counter, Vantage, and Brazen Atk/Def seal might be better, though.

For Mathilda, Knightly Lance having a Killer effect and effective damage against cavalry as its base effects wouldn't have killed anyone. A Killer effect is already very utilitarian and effective damage against cavalry would have been a bonus considering how specific her and Clive's unique refinement is. Instead, Mathilda ended up with a very specific unique refinement while Peri has Brazen Spectrum that works at < 100% HP and Oscar's Loyal Greatlance ended up with three total effects since the unique refinement does two things: "Grants Atk/Spd+3 to infantry and cavalry allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an infantry or cavalry ally, grants Atk/Spd+3 during combat." That is to say, it buffs his allies who are infantry or cavalry within 2 spaces of him and it buffs him if he's within 2 spaces of his infantry or cavalry allies. Clive and Mathilda's unique refinement can be argued as two effects, but as noted, it only works on their support partner whereas Oscar's unique refinement works on two movement types. Mathilda with a Killer effect and effective damage against cavalry wouldn't intrude on anyone really as Clair is a speedy-ish flier who has effective damage against armors as well, Ephraim & Lyon are an infantry duo unit with very high attack and high defense and effective damage against armors, and Panne is a beast who shares the same movement type as Mathilda, but has higher defense than resistance compared to Mathilda.

Moving on from my issues with with how effective damage is counted, regular Mareeta's Close Call had me thinking about a unit having Close Call as their weapon's effect considering this would mean the unit could run Close Call with another B passive like Null C-Disrupt, Special Spiral, or whatever. Probably would have to exclude the Hit 'n' Run part, though, since it would probably be considered annoying to people if it was tied to the weapon. The fastest melee unit without a personal weapon right now is Rutger who having a personal sword with a double Killer effect might make more sense, but anyway. Defensively, he's like Mareeta as he has three more base HP, two less base defense, and one more base resistance. Rutger's 44 HP, 32 Atk, 39 Spd, 29 Def, and 24 Res. Assuming the Killer effect is kept from his default Slaying Edge, he could run Null Follow-Up to emulate regular Mareeta's default kit without Spectrum Solo. Or as noted, he could run a different B passive where considering Close Call reduces damage in combat and from AoE specials, a unit like Rutger with high speed could probably run Distant Counter and Null C-Disrupt very well and be a good tank.

Edited by Kaden

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3 hours ago, Kaden said:

The developers have been on and off with if effective damage is a free effect or not.

Whether or not there is another effect on the weapon doesn't change the fact that it's free. There's no rule stating that base weapons must have exactly one non-free effect.

 

3 hours ago, Kaden said:

Clive and Mathilda's unique refinement can be argued as two effects, but as noted, it only works on their support partner whereas Oscar's unique refinement works on two movement types.

Oscar's refine effect only gives 6 points of stats. Clive and Mathilda's gives 12. I think it's perfectly fair that Clive and Mathilda have a more strict condition for activating their buffs.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Whether or not there is another effect on the weapon doesn't change the fact that it's free. There's no rule stating that base weapons must have exactly one non-free effect.

There isn't a rule, but it is strange feeling seeing units getting a personal weapon and only seeing effective damage knowing that other units, new or older, have effective damage and some other effect. It probably won't happen, but it'd be like if an archer gets a personal weapon and it only has effective damage against fliers which would probably be the worst thing since the archer class's shtick is having effective damage against fliers whereas with other units, effective damage is something they have to choose to have. The unique refinement would be able to make up for that, but that also feels like a, "If you want a weapon that isn't just a personal effective against X weapon, then you have to spend divine dew." This is while knowing for some other unit, you don't have to deal with that like Dauntless Lance, Hermit's Tome, Rhomphaia, Selena's Blade, and Wing Sword all have effective damage and something else. Granted, four of those five weapons are on units who either have low attack or were considered not that great. Refining them makes them stronger, but you don't really have to like with personal -blade, Brave, or Killer weapons.

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Oscar's refine effect only gives 6 points of stats. Clive and Mathilda's gives 12. I think it's perfectly fair that Clive and Mathilda have a more strict condition for activating their buffs.

I pointed that out the raw amount of in combat buffs Clive and Mathilda's unique refinement give is good, but it would have been nice if their lances had another base effect to offset choosing between a strict, but powerful unique refinement or a stat refinement which more or less makes their lances a glorified Heavy Spear or a Killer Lance. The latter would be less of a problem if they didn't require the use of divine dew. There aren't a lot of regular weapons I want to refine or the unit doesn't even have a regular weapon in the first place.

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20 minutes ago, Kaden said:

but it'd be like if an archer gets a personal weapon and it only has effective damage against fliers which would probably be the worst thing since the archer class's shtick is having effective damage against fliers

That's a horrible analogy. Effective damage against armors is not a base effect of lances whereas effective damage against fliers is a base effect of bows. An exclusive lance with effective damage against armors is better than a Silver Lance+ (counting the +1 Atk common to all refines) whereas an exclusive bow with effective damage against fliers is not better than a Silver Bow+ (again, counting the +1 Atk common to all refines). No exclusive weapon is going to be equivalent to the weapon type's Silver weapon at base.

Whether or not an effect is "free" says nothing about how good the effect is. It's simply a description of how the developers are distributing effects on weapons.

 

34 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Granted, four of those five weapons are on units who either have low attack or were considered not that great.

Exactly.

And the fifth weapon you mentioned is on Nephenee, who is a 5-star exclusive unit that doesn't stand out from her competition on stats alone.

 

39 minutes ago, Kaden said:

There aren't a lot of regular weapons I want to refine or the unit doesn't even have a regular weapon in the first place.

The fact that pretty much every unit that has an inheritable weapon is going to get an exclusive weapon sometime down the line (except possibly staves) is basically saying that players should be treating rocks as an expendable resource whose primary purpose is to be converted into Dew and whose secondary purpose is to be used to make units better, not the other way around.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's a horrible analogy. Effective damage against armors is not a base effect of lances whereas effective damage against fliers is a base effect of bows. An exclusive lance with effective damage against armors is better than a Silver Lance+ (counting the +1 Atk common to all refines) whereas an exclusive bow with effective damage against fliers is not better than a Silver Bow+ (again, counting the +1 Atk common to all refines). No exclusive weapon is going to be equivalent to the weapon type's Silver weapon at base.

Whether or not an effect is "free" says nothing about how good the effect is. It's simply a description of how the developers are distributing effects on weapons.

The only other thing I could think of is if a dagger unit ended up with a personal Silver Dagger. The point I was trying to get there was that in the past, effective damage by itself on a personal weapon was fine considering any personal weapon with any effect that is not already on the Silver weapon in the cases of archers and dagger units is going to be better than a Silver weapon, but now we have newer units who have effective damage and two or more effects. I pointed it out where they have to sell new units, but it still feels underwhelming at times and this disregards how effective those weapons are like Frederick's high attack paired with his axe and its Death Blow unique refinement. It leaves a feeling of wanting more knowing that more isn't always more.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that pretty much every unit that has an inheritable weapon is going to get an exclusive weapon sometime down the line (except possibly staves) is basically saying that players should be treating rocks as an expendable resource whose primary purpose is to be converted into Dew and whose secondary purpose is to be used to make units better, not the other way around.

That sentence was a personal problem one. I've never been one to use a lot of resources and making through games with the bare minimum at times just happens with me. With regards to Heroes, I don't really feel the want or need to refine regular or personal weapons much less even inheriting skills onto people a lot. The last unit I felt like I really wanted to refine their weapon was Saizo. Hawkeye was both because I felt like I should invest in more axe units and because why not make use of the Lull Atk/Def unique refinement. Things have been just "I'll get by with the base effects of their new weapon" or "I'll get by with their default kit." So, you can imagine how much resources are piling up and being wasted.

Edited by Kaden

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Leif, Cordelia, Rebecca, and Henry getting refines!

Most excited for Cordelia since lately, she's been sort of outperformed in specific roles by existing lance fliers that have received refineable Prf weapons.

Pretty curious for Rebecca, too, especially since there's some competition in the form of Norne and Tanya.

Not sure what to expect from Leif though given that he's a 5* exclusive book 2 Jugdral sword infantry unit getting a refine in book 4, I'm half-expecting his Prf to become incredibly Plus-Ultra broken.

Also unsure of what to expect from Henry. His offensive stats are lacking so I'm sort of expecting his Prf to be incredibly dumb as well to make players besides his fans consider using him.

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1 hour ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Leif, Cordelia, Rebecca, and Henry getting refines!

Most excited for Cordelia since lately, she's been sort of outperformed in specific roles by existing lance fliers that have received refineable Prf weapons.

Pretty curious for Rebecca, too, especially since there's some competition in the form of Norne and Tanya.

Not sure what to expect from Leif though given that he's a 5* exclusive book 2 Jugdral sword infantry unit getting a refine in book 4, I'm half-expecting his Prf to become incredibly Plus-Ultra broken.

Also unsure of what to expect from Henry. His offensive stats are lacking so I'm sort of expecting his Prf to be incredibly dumb as well to make players besides his fans consider using him.

Given how screwed Leif got by taking so long to even get in the game, I say bring on the brokenness. 😄

 

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1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

Henry will have an owl effect somewhere in there. It's the book 1 mage curse.

It's funny how you say that, because the original Owl Tome units, Mae and Boey, don't have Prf Owl Tomes.

I don't expect a owl tome because Katarina and Raigh have it.

Edited by Diovani Bressan

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I'm expecting a Raven Tome with an added effect

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Predictions, predictions...

Leif: If they're bold they'll give him Distant Counter or adaptive damage but I doubt it. Maybe he'll get a conditional either or? Renewal is another possible effect since he can heal with it in Thracia although it's redundant with S Drink.

Cordelia: She started with a Brave Lance, has one in her official art and rocks with it in Heroes, so I can see her keeping it with a +stat. If her special refine doesn't make her lance Elincia then I expect something offensive like Flashing Blade. I doubt it'll be the effect her daughter has.

Rebecca: Probably Life or Death like- oh wait it's not Rienfleche? Never mind then, although I'm still expecting something offensive like a second Darting Blow or Swift Sparrow.

Henry: Raventome with a cooldown effect is my guess, since he joins with a Ruin tome. Could be a straight cooldown boost, or an armor skill like Vengeful Fighter would suit him too.

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13 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

or an armor skill like Vengeful Fighter

Therein lies madness. Possibly.

But Henry is so overlooked maybe Vengeful Fighter won't be so bad after all. It would definitely have been much worse were he armored. It also helps that this is a refine I'd love for Lyon too.

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11 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Therein lies madness. Possibly.

But Henry is so overlooked maybe Vengeful Fighter won't be so bad after all. It would definitely have been much worse were he armored. It also helps that this is a refine I'd love for Lyon too.

Blazing Durandal refine is Special Fighter with a different activation condition, it isn't out of the question.

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21 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Blazing Durandal refine is Special Fighter with a different activation condition, it isn't out of the question.

Huh. It doesn't inflict Guard (unless I'm mistaken) so I always saw it as a stronger Heavy Blade. You make a good point though!

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49 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Rebecca: Probably Life or Death like- oh wait it's not Rienfleche? Never mind then, although I'm still expecting something offensive like a second Darting Blow or Swift Sparrow.

If they want to make her competitive, she needs Brave Bow or Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim. Or more ideally, a Brave Bow with Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim effect.

8 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Huh. It doesn't inflict Guard (unless I'm mistaken) so I always saw it as a stronger Heavy Blade. You make a good point though!

It inflicts Guard on the enemy.
"Grants Atk+3. If unit initiates combat, grants Special cooldown charge +1 to unit and inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

Here is Guard.
"At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ 80%, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

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9 minutes ago, XRay said:

"Grants Atk+3. If unit initiates combat, grants Special cooldown charge +1 to unit and inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

Here is Guard.
"At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ 80%, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)"

Oh, I should have been clearer: I know what Guard is, I just forgot that Blazing Durandal inflicted it. Thanks for the correction!

So a Player Phase variant of Special Fighter has already been made a refine, huh? On one hand, the CYL refines (minus Lyn) have all been incredibly potent to the point that I think we've all agreed that they won't be matched any time soon, but on the other...maybe Vengeful Fighter isn't that unlikely after all~

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Agh, if Leif gets a DC-related refine, I'm going to be so mad. Mine already has DC!

As for Henry, I'm expecting a raven tome effect. Partly because his tome name, Corvus, pretty much relates to ravens, right? Henry's personal refine should probably give him close counter or more attack.

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18 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

So a Player Phase variant of Special Fighter has already been made a refine, huh? On one hand, the CYL refines (minus Lyn) have all been incredibly potent to the point that I think we've all agreed that they won't be matched any time soon, but on the other...maybe Vengeful Fighter isn't that unlikely after all~

Celica's was stupidly insane, and she got it before Brave Heroes units got theirs. She rivals Blade mages in player hands, trading away some Atk for Spd, AND she got recoil damage so she can run Brazen Atk/Spd 4 instead of Fury.

Sonya's was also pretty bonkers, and with Time's Pulse being a thing now, she can spam Iceberg without external support. Once Mirror Blow/Death Blow Sacred Seal becomes a thing, she would hit even harder.

The White Wings and Cain and Abel also got really good niche Refinements that make them perfect for Røkkr Sieges.

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Freaking FINALLY! How long have I been clamoring for a Rebecca refine, now? I really hope it isn't a letdown.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

If they want to make her competitive, she needs Brave Bow or Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim. Or more ideally, a Brave Bow with Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim effect.

I'd hope she at least gets Brave Bow. But I'm tempering my expectations.

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6 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Hoping for Firesweep Bow since we've already doubled up on Brave Bows and Faye lost her Firesweep.

No one says you cannot have a Firesweep Bow with a Brave or Lunar Arc/Saintly Seraphim effect. Or have all three effects.

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-> = Refine upgrade to new weapon

Cordelia: Firesweep + +4 Atk/Spd boost if within 2 spaces of a red sword infantry ally -> Close Guard. Basically tried to reference her crush on Chrom.

Henry: Raven + Distant Defence 3 -> If unit's Def > foe's Def, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum bonus of +7 damage). The damage would be true damage like with Subaki's Prf, the built in Distant Defence is included in the calculation when it activates. 

Rebecca: Slaying + Effective against Beasts -> Savage Blow 3. Her background for knowing how to use a bow was all about hunting animals, and we have enough beasts in the game we could probably start introducing more anti-beast options. 

Leif: -> Adaptive Damage + DC when at 100% HP. Nods to the weapon originally being able to attack at range with magic. 

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24 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Cordelia: Firesweep + +4 Atk/Spd boost if within 2 spaces of a red sword infantry ally -> Close Guard. Basically tried to reference her crush on Chrom.

I really hope that is not the effect because everything besides Firesweep feels really underwhelming. A support effect and an effect that requires a super specific ally class and positioning requirement are not great for a nuke.

For a thematic build that is useful, I would just go with a simple Slaying Lance with HP<100% Escape Route to reflect her backstory when she joins in Awakening. She can Galeforce and then immediately run the hell away.

33 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Henry: Raven + Distant Defence 3 -> If unit's Def > foe's Def, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum bonus of +7 damage). The damage would be true damage like with Subaki's Prf, the built in Distant Defence is included in the calculation when it activates. 

I think a straight up stat boost of Def/Res+6, similar to Fort Def/Res but without the Atk -2, would be fine. As a gen I mage, he really needs all the stats he can get.

36 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Rebecca: Slaying + Effective against Beasts -> Savage Blow 3. Her background for knowing how to use a bow was all about hunting animals, and we have enough beasts in the game we could probably start introducing more anti-beast options. 

While it is not impossible, they have not released an Effective Weapon that is effective against a movement type and a Weapon type at the same time. Effective Weapons with double effectiveness are either effective against 2 movement types or effective against 2 Weapon types.

For going against beast teams, Savage Blow is bad idea in my opinion since it could trigger Wings of Mercy Herons. I would just go with Brazen Atk/Spd or Swift Sparrow so she is better equipped to kill beasts, especially when paired with Time's Pulse.

50 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Leif: -> Adaptive Damage + DC when at 100% HP. Nods to the weapon originally being able to attack at range with magic. 

100% HP is way too restrictive and weak. I would do HP≥70% at most, the same threshold as Quick Riposte. Osian's Vouge has a threshold HP≥50%, so I expect Leif to have the same threshold if he is going to have conditional Distant Counter.

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