General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Ae†her]

Still praying for older DC weapons to get refines. Fierce Stance 4 for Ryoma, Steady Stance 4 + Guard 3 for Ike, maybe Def based damage reduction for Xander.

[NSSKG151]

6 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I know Ivaldi is worse than Gleipnir because it grants +3 Def for some reason, but it'd be nice for the latter to get a refine at the same time.

Until then, Morgan's new weapon is a pleasant surprise I'm really looking forward to! Still waiting for Naglfar though...

Eh, not like the +3 Res helps Eirika much either but really Gleipnir and Ivaldi need updated effects or at the very least get rid of the conditional HP requirements and just put Swift Sparrow on their weapons instead.

[Hilda]

32 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Still praying for older DC weapons to get refines. Fierce Stance 4 for Ryoma, Steady Stance 4 + Guard 3 for Ike, maybe Def based damage reduction for Xander.

I wouldnt hold my breath...

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, Ae†her said:

Still praying for older DC weapons to get refines. Fierce Stance 4 for Ryoma, Steady Stance 4 + Guard 3 for Ike, maybe Def based damage reduction for Xander.

Neither version of Ryoma really cares about Fierce Stance. Both versions of Ryoma have the stats to be good as partial dual-phase units, but have issues charging a Special skill in time on either phase, forcing them to run Slaying Edge + Distant Counter instead of Raijinto. Raijinto would ideally either get the Killer effect or a means of boosting Special charge rate.

Ragnell (and Alondite) should just get Guard. Ideally with no HP threshold at all (i.e. the Guard half of Special Fighter), but even 50% would be fine. Alternatively, Dull Everything or Null Follow-Up + Null C-Disrupt would also be extremely useful and are also relatively consistent with the weapons' lore, but are more likely to conflict with players' existing builds. Getting Guard and Steady Stance 4 at the same time is unrealistic considering the most loaded Distant Counter weapon in the game right now (excluding the intentionally powerful Ragnell-Alondite) is Vouge, which only has a conditional Distant Counter to compensate for its Killer effect.

Xander's personal skill Chivalry I can see being translated loosely as +4 to all stats when above 50% HP, but that would be kind of boring. From a gameplay perspective, it would be more useful to have Great Flame's effect. Ideally combined with Null Follow-Up, but that's just wishful thinking.

I want to see Gradivus get something like Dull Everything that would be useful for both Camus and Hardin. Or the Killer effect since Sable Lance has that as one of its effects.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Nym]

DC weapon getting refines?

The many gen 1 staff users would like to have a word with all of you.

[EricaofRenais]

Jakob's tray may sound like a joke weapon but the effects in Fates were very fun.  I hope it has the same effects in FEH, because it would work well with my debuffer Jakob build that my Jakob has right now.  I am just really happy since I have been waiting for Jakob to get a refine sin Felicia got hers.

[Icelerate]

15 hours ago, Ae†her said:

Still praying for older DC weapons to get refines. Fierce Stance 4 for Ryoma, Steady Stance 4 + Guard 3 for Ike, maybe Def based damage reduction for Xander.

Steady stance 4 already comes with enemy phase guard. Unless you meant just the +8 def and guard 3. I think giving tier 4 skill on top of DC is too much. 

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, Nym said:

DC weapon getting refines?

The many gen 1 staff users would like to have a word with all of you.

My Azama is still hurting -_- Infantry Gen 1 healers have fallens so far behind ._.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

My Azama is still hurting -_- Infantry Gen 1 healers have fallens so far behind ._.

At least Azama's low Atk gives him a good quality of life niche for training units in Special Training Maps. Same with Wrys. Using any other healer, you have to be careful about not killing things accidentally. Although I guess you can always remove the Weapon, but I am kind of lazy.

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, Nym said:

DC weapon getting refines?

The many gen 1 staff users would like to have a word with all of you.

Gravity+ and Pain+ are still broken in half. Staves literally have zero need for new exclusive weapons right now. Every single staff unit is more than viable and will continue to be viable until Null C-Disrupt becomes commonplace, which it won't anytime soon.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Nym]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

My Azama is still hurting -_- Infantry Gen 1 healers have fallens so far behind ._.

At least he is tanky.

51 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gravity+ and Pain+ are still broken in half. Staves literally have zero need for new exclusive weapons right now. Every single staff unit is more than viable and will continue to be viable until Null C-Disrupt becomes commonplace, which it won't anytime soon.

Just because they are strong staffs right now doesn't mean they can add more.

For example, they can add a personal staff with a new effect at base. Then the refine can be Dazzle or Wrathful.

[Baldrick]

22 minutes ago, Nym said:

Just because they are strong staffs right now doesn't mean they can add more.

L!Alm, L!Azura and Surtr refines when?

[Hilda]

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

L!Alm, L!Azura and Surtr refines when?

I can see Surtrs refine: double the amount of debuff/dmg from skills that work within 2 Spaces...

[Nym]

17 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

L!Alm, L!Azura and Surtr refines when?

I said strong staffs, not strong units!

[XRay]

I want Blade and Firesweep Weapons to get Refines to match the bulk of recent units. Plus, it is not like Firesweep is going to be the main method of dealing damage anyways, and I think giving Blade tomes a small buff would help them out a bit more for the older mages to give them a bit more Spd.

[Ice Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Nym said:

I said strong staffs, not strong units!

Alm, Azura, and Surtr are absolutely nothing special if you look at just their stats. It's their access to powerful skills that make them strong, and that's no different than the fact that every single staff unit in the game has easy access to Pain+ and Gravity+.

[Baldrick]

51 minutes ago, Nym said:

I said strong staffs, not strong units!

Those units are only strong because of their weapons and skills. Similarly, every unit with access to strong staffs like Gravity and Pain (i.e. every staff user) is a strong unit.

@Ice Dragon Please don't make fun of my slow typing

Edited February 1, 2020 by Baldrick

[Ae†her]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:51 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Neither version of Ryoma really cares about Fierce Stance. Both versions of Ryoma have the stats to be good as partial dual-phase units, but have issues charging a Special skill in time on either phase, forcing them to run Slaying Edge + Distant Counter instead of Raijinto. Raijinto would ideally either get the Killer effect or a means of boosting Special charge rate.

Ragnell (and Alondite) should just get Guard. Ideally with no HP threshold at all (i.e. the Guard half of Special Fighter), but even 50% would be fine. Alternatively, Dull Everything or Null Follow-Up + Null C-Disrupt would also be extremely useful and are also relatively consistent with the weapons' lore, but are more likely to conflict with players' existing builds. Getting Guard and Steady Stance 4 at the same time is unrealistic considering the most loaded Distant Counter weapon in the game right now (excluding the intentionally powerful Ragnell-Alondite) is Vouge, which only has a conditional Distant Counter to compensate for its Killer effect.

Xander's personal skill Chivalry I can see being translated loosely as +4 to all stats when above 50% HP, but that would be kind of boring. From a gameplay perspective, it would be more useful to have Great Flame's effect. Ideally combined with Null Follow-Up, but that's just wishful thinking.

I want to see Gradivus get something like Dull Everything that would be useful for both Camus and Hardin. Or the Killer effect since Sable Lance has that as one of its effects.

Well, I kind of just want them to be overpowered, but I like your ideas as well. Literally I'll take any kind of buff at this point so I have an excuse to take out my Ryoma, Xander and Camus again. 

14 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Steady stance 4 already comes with enemy phase guard. Unless you meant just the +8 def and guard 3. I think giving tier 4 skill on top of DC is too much. 

Steady Stance 4 only works on Enemy Phase that's why I added Guard 3 there. And yeah I want it to be too much as an f u to other more powerful DC units. 

[Diovani Bressan]

17 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I think giving tier 4 skill on top of DC is too much.

Yeah. I am with you.

I don't see Tier 4 skills in DC weapons, but I could see Sturdy Stance (Atk/Def+4 in enemy phase) for Xander as an example, even though I like Ice Dragon's ideas more (stats+4 during enemy phase when HP>50%).

But it's not guaranteed that Fates personal skills will be their refinements, or even be like their Fate's versions. Fates's Saizo Start grants Strength+4 in allies within 2 spaces after comabt, which is way different than a Smoke Dagger with a eneme penalty buffs effect (and I am glad that it's different).

Edited February 1, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Jotari]

Hey, we're talking about Distant Counter refines. Here's some ideas I posted a while ago (with some slight changes)

Alondite: Guard 3 (based on it's ability to negate critical hits in Path of Radiance)

Divine Mist: DEF/RES Bond 2 (based on this Tiki's With Everyone theme)

 

Razing Breath: ATK/DEF Solo (because this Tiki is alone)

Dragonbind: Renewal 3 (I know Legendary Roy comes with Renewal anyway, but he can double up. Or free up his B slot for something else)

Expiration: Upheaval (based on the prebattle attack Grima uses in Awakening. Duma can keep all the Aether raid stuff as unique though).

Gradivus: Renewal 3 (because it can restore health in game).

Leiptr: Special Spiral 3 (making Fjorm a more complete anti range unit, although if you want you could take Ice Mirror off her and double down on Special Spiral with something like Galeforce or Aether. That could be cool).

Ragnell: Dull Close (Comes from the fact that it Ignore's the Black Knight and Ashnard's blessed armour).

Raijinto: Death Blow 3 (because it has an atk+4 affect in game and a plain stat increase is already an option for other refines).

Siegfried: Armoured Blow 3 (because of it's def+4 affect and to mirror Raijinto).

Stout Tomahawk: Armoured Stance 3 (because it's what comes to mind when I think Stout and would pair well with his default Fierce Stance).

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Divine Mist: DEF/RES Bond 2 (based on this Tiki's With Everyone theme)

Bonds are horrible in my opinion, and A!Tiki's and Y!Tiki's special Refinement effect just need a sword or dragon ally within two space, which is quite a bit more flexible.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Razing Breath: ATK/DEF Solo (because this Tiki is alone)

I would double down on Spd with Atk/Spd Solo since she is kind of slow compared to other fast units.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Dragonbind: Renewal 3 (I know Legendary Roy comes with Renewal anyway, but he can double up. Or free up his B slot for something else)

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Gradivus: Renewal 3 (because it can restore health in game).

Too weak in my opinion. Healing skills on combat units are not very effective since they simply do not heal enough to be meaningful; most of the time, bringing a healer would be far more efficient. Renewal 4 might be okay though.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Raijinto: Death Blow 3 (because it has an atk+4 affect in game and a plain stat increase is already an option for other refines).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Siegfried: Armoured Blow 3 (because of it's def+4 affect and to mirror Raijinto).

I am not a fan of mixing Player Phase effects with Enemy Phase effects since it does not synergize with each other. Death Blow and Armored Blow are effectively useless on Enemy Phase, which is when most players use those two units in combat.

For Raijinto, I would just go with Slaying effect since activating a stronger Special is basically boosting Atk, but it also works on both phases.

For Siegfried, I would go with Guard with no HP requirements. It is active on both phases and it achieves a similar result to boosting his bulk.

 

 

[Xenomata]

@XRay @Jotari Therein lies a bit of a problem with refining weapons that have established effects in their original game. From a "lore" perspective it makes sense to give Raijinto a Death Blow/Fierce Stance refine, but in practice it doesn't actually make much sense to actually give to Ryoma because it does very little to actually improve his performance (and he still competes with many other DC swordies, but besides the point). So maybe it's cute that refined Fujin Yumi lets Takumi walk wherever the hell he wants like in Fates, but that doesn't even mean much of anything in most MAPS, let alone actual combat.

Besides, we now know what refines can truly do thanks to Leif's Light Brand refine, which already had a Stat+ and base effect but then got another Stat+ effect PLUS the refine effect. So if you wanted to give some sick refines to existing weapons while still making them useful, I have a few ideas...

Alondite / Ragnell: Grants Def +3. If Foe initiates combat and uses Sword, Lance, Axe, Breath, or Beast Damage, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +5. (Alondite and Ragnell are basically the same weapon in the Tellius games, just one is locked to one character while the other can eventually be used by anyone. Anyway, I don't remember where I saw this but I seem to remember a ranged weapon in SOME game having a weaker attack at range? Plus given Ike's very close-range battle style in Smash Bros, I think it makes sense for him to have a close-range effect)

Divine Mist: Grants Spd +3. Grants bonus to Atk/Spd during combat equal to highest bonus applied to Def or Res. (a refine these days tends to work with the units base kit, and what better way to work with your base kit then to work with your own personal skill? Basically makes her With Everyone! skill grant herself an Atk/Spd +5 bonus, or higher if she is buffed by Fortify Res 4 or something.)

Expiration: Nullifies skills that disable counterattacks. If foe does not have a weapon that deals effective damage to unit, reduces damage from attacks during combat by 20% and grants Def/Res +5 to unit during combat. (As a final boss, Grima's weapon can counterattack at any possible Player range. Besides Dragonskin, Grima also comes with Pavise+ and Aegis+ on higher difficulties in Awakening, further making them hard to defeat with just normal weapons).

Just... actually now that I look back Grima's might be a little much... but eh, isn't that what peer review is for?

Edited February 1, 2020 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Therein lies a bit of a problem with refining weapons that have established effects in their original game. From a "lore" perspective it makes sense to give Raijinto a Death Blow/Fierce Stance refine, but in practice it doesn't actually make much sense to actually give to Ryoma because it does very little to actually improve his performance (and he still competes with many other DC swordies, but besides the point). So maybe it's cute that refined Fujin Yumi lets Takumi walk wherever the hell he wants like in Fates, but that doesn't even mean much of anything in most MAPS, let alone actual combat.

The legendary weapons of Elibe, however, show that they're entirely willing to throw lore out the window for the purposes of gameplay.

 

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Besides, we now know what refines can truly do thanks to Leif's Light Brand refine, which already had a Stat+ and base effect but then got another Stat+ effect PLUS the refine effect. So if you wanted to give some sick refines to existing weapons while still making them useful, I have a few ideas...

Light Brand doesn't get a second "stat effect" on top of its refine effect, unless you're counting the +3 HP that all unique melee refines have. "Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, grants Spd/Def+4 to unit during combat." is the full refine effect, and the strength of its effect is there to make up for having a weak base effect.

Distant Counter is by absolutely no means a weak base effect, so it doesn't make sense to give a weapon with Distant Counter anything absurdly powerful as a refine. Again, may I bring your attention to Vouge, which is currently the strongest Distant Counter weapon outside of the intentionally overpowered Ragnell-Alondite.

 

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Anyway, I don't remember where I saw this but I seem to remember a ranged weapon in SOME game having a weaker attack at range?

You're probably thinking of Blazing Sword and The Sacred Stones. The GBA games don't have both a Str stat and Mag stat for units, so for those two games, it uses half of a unit's Str as a substitute for the Mag stat to calculate magic damage for magic swords. However, it's worth noting that the distinction is not close range and long range, but whether or not the weapon is using its magic attack. Light Brand and Wind Sword use its magic attack only at long range, but Runesword uses its magic attack all the time.

[Xenomata]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Light Brand doesn't get a second "stat effect" on top of its refine effect, unless you're counting the +3 HP that all unique melee refines have. "Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). At start of combat, if foe's HP = 100%, grants Spd/Def+4 to unit during combat." is the full refine effect, and the strength of its effect is there to make up for having a weak base effect.

Atk +3, Spd +3, Def +3, Res +3, Special Cooldown -1, Special Damage +10, Effective Against [                ], those are all I consider "stat effects".

[Ice Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Atk +3, Spd +3, Def +3, Res +3, Special Cooldown -1, Special Damage +10, Effective Against [                ], those are all I consider "stat effects".

I have no idea what the last 3 have in common with the first 4 to count as stat effects.