General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Kaden]

Dire Thunder with -blade/the Cleaner/Blizzard's grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe effect or Luna Arc/Saintly Seraphim's deals damage = 25% of foe's Def/Res would be hilarious.

I doubt it would make sense for Siegbert, but Swift Impact: "If unit initiates combat, grants Spd+7 and Res+10 during combat and foe cannot make a follow-up attack", could be an interesting unique refinement for Dark Greatsword to create a inverse situation with Eliwood where Eliwood's lower base defense is evened out with Blazing Durandal's Steady Impact. Eliwood has 23/32 neutral defenses where Steady Impact would give him 33/32 while Siegbert has 31/16 neutral defenses where Swift Impact would give him 31/26 defenses. Given how low Siegbert's base resistance is and it would only help out against dragons and healers or mages with Close Counter or the few non-dragon units with adaptive damage, it's not that great compared to Eliwood having almost even defenses, but in those cases he is fighting a magic damage unit, it could make a difference from taking too much damage, he still gets the benefit of having an Impact effect preventing follow-up attacks, and with Dark Greatsword's base Swift Sparrow 2 or even an upgraded Swift Sparrow 3, Siegbert would gain 11 to 14 speed when initiating giving him 46 to 49 Spd if =Spd.

Darting Blow 3/4, Steady Impact, Sturdy Impact, or Swift Sparrow 3 to stack with the base Swift Sparrow 2 probably would work better with him.

9 hours ago, Xenomata said:

~Since some Fates units like to receive refines based off their personal skills, I think Siegbert might get something similar to what Corrin and Clive/Mathilda got, but purely in raw damage. Like "If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, unit or support partner will receive Atk +6 during combat." The base effect I have to imagine will get upgraded to Swift Sparrow 3, because no one likes Swift Sparrow 2 anymore.

Or we could go even crazier and make it so he deals damage instead: "If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, deals +7 damage."

[FrostyFireMage]

I'd rather have a refine for Shiro cos sword cavs are everywhere and infantry lances are comparatively scarce. Hopefully next month?  

I can totally see Leon having a combat bonus when in 2 spaces of an armored ally lmao

I have a +3 Gwendy so hopefully her refine is good, maybe a defense-based Heavy Blade?

[Hilda]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:42 PM, FrostyFireMage said:

I'd rather have a refine for Shiro cos sword cavs are everywhere and infantry lances are comparatively scarce. Hopefully next month?  

I can totally see Leon having a combat bonus when in 2 spaces of an armored ally lmao

I have a +3 Gwendy so hopefully her refine is good, maybe a defense-based Heavy Blade?

If only they wouldnt release so many Lance fliers we would have a diverse choice of Lance infantry users!

Our current picks are:
Free:
Sharena, Oboro, Lukas, Donnel and Fjorm (kinda)
5 Star:
Azura (Dancer lulz), Shiro, Regular Ephraim, Nephenee, Lucina

and limited because special hero or so:
Duo Ephraim, Charlotte, Robin

What do they all have in comon? a shitty RES stat aside from Fjorm who has decent mixed bulk but a shitty Attack stat. The selection on the free pool is really slim. We coul use some free high RES lance users and fast lance users.

[Kaden]

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

What do they all have in comon? a shitty RES stat aside from Fjorm who has decent mixed bulk but a shitty Attack stat. The selection on the free pool is really slim. We coul use some free high RES lance users and fast lance users.

They're not really beating axe or sword infantry in resistance either. Lance infantry have the highest resistance ceiling with Fjorm at 34 base to sword infantry's summer Helbindi at 33 base and to axe infantry's Helbindi at 31 base.

In the 3* to 4* pool and Sharena: Oboro (24), Donnel (23), Sharena (22), and Lukas (17). Both Oboro and Donnel have superassets that give them 28 and 27 Res, respectively.

In the 5* regular pool: Azura (28), Shiro (22), Ephraim and Nephenee (20), and CYL Lucina (19).

In the seasonal/limited pool: Fjorm (34), summer F!Robin (29), Ephraim & Lyon (25), soiree Berkut (24), and bride Charlotte (19).

Free: Fjorm (34) and Sharena (22).

Grail: none.

Looking at the best they got for axe and sword infantry and all their grail units, for axe infantry:

Spoiler

In the 3* to 4* pool: Hawkeye (30), Libra (29), and Echidna (27), and Arthur and Ross (24).

In the 5* regular pool: Annette (30), Osian (27), and Dorcas (24).

In the seasonal/limited pool: Nohrian Azura (28), Alm & Celica (25), and summer adult Tiki (24).

Free: Anna (28) and CYL Ike (20). In raw base resistance, CYL Ike's isn't great, but unique refined Urvan is so dumb that CYL Ike might as well dump all of his defensive stats into HP, Atk, and Spd because fuck damage.

Grail: summer Ylgr (25), Linus (19), and Legion (18).

For sword infantry:

Spoiler

In the 3* to 4* pool: Fir (31), Silvia (30), Eirika, Roy, and Selena (28), and Hana and Olivia (26).

In the 5* regular pool: Lyn (29), Lene (28), and witch Celica (26).

In the seasonal/limited pool: summer Helbindi (33), Lif (29), and kid Marth and legendary Roy (26).

Free: Alfonse (22) and legendary Ike (21). Not so great.

Grail: Itsuki (32), Lloyd (30), Joshua (28) who comes with prf Killing Edge with Res+5, Tobin (26), spring Bartre (25), Navarre and Rutger (24), Astram and Marisa (21), and masked Marth (19).

But yes, the low population of lance infantry is a problem as there are not many options much less options for a lance infantry with decent to high resistance. Lance infantry never had a gen 3 unit and still does not have a gen 4 unit in the regular summoning pool. Both soiree Berkut and Ephraim & Lyon are seasonal. What's even worse is that the last demote was Lukas back in April 14, 2017. At least axe cavalry, flier, and infantry had grail units if not later on for some of the types, demotes. The dumbest thing with this all is because of the high amount of stats gen 4 melee units have to play with, unless the developers make it so the new, eventual lance infantry demote have low resistance or choose to gimp them with gen 3 BST because why not, they could end up with average to good resistance let alone speed just because of they don't have any other stat to dump their points in.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

They're not really beating axe or sword infantry in resistance either. Lance infantry have the highest resistance ceiling with Fjorm at 34 base to sword infantry's summer Helbindi at 33 base and to axe infantry's Helbindi at 31 base.

In the 3* to 4* pool and Sharena: Oboro (24), Donnel (23), Sharena (22), and Lukas (17). Both Oboro and Donnel have superassets that give them 28 and 27 Res, respectively.

In the 5* regular pool: Azura (28), Shiro (22), Ephraim and Nephenee (20), and CYL Lucina (19).

In the seasonal/limited pool: Fjorm (34), summer F!Robin (29), Ephraim & Lyon (25), soiree Berkut (24), and bride Charlotte (19).

Free: Fjorm (34) and Sharena (22).

Grail: none.

Looking at the best they got for axe and sword infantry and all their grail units, for axe infantry:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the 3* to 4* pool: Hawkeye (30), Libra (29), and Echidna (27), and Arthur and Ross (24).

In the 5* regular pool: Annette (30), Osian (27), and Dorcas (24).

In the seasonal/limited pool: Nohrian Azura (28), Alm & Celica (25), and summer adult Tiki (24).

Free: Anna (28) and CYL Ike (20). In raw base resistance, CYL Ike's isn't great, but unique refined Urvan is so dumb that CYL Ike might as well dump all of his defensive stats into HP, Atk, and Spd because fuck damage.

Grail: summer Ylgr (25), Linus (19), and Legion (18).

For sword infantry:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the 3* to 4* pool: Fir (31), Silvia (30), Eirika, Roy, and Selena (28), and Hana and Olivia (26).

In the 5* regular pool: Lyn (29), Lene (28), and witch Celica (26).

In the seasonal/limited pool: summer Helbindi (33), Lif (29), and kid Marth and legendary Roy (26).

Free: Alfonse (22) and legendary Ike (21). Not so great.

Grail: Itsuki (32), Lloyd (30), Joshua (28) who comes with prf Killing Edge with Res+5, Tobin (26), spring Bartre (25), Navarre and Rutger (24), Astram and Marisa (21), and masked Marth (19).

But yes, the low population of lance infantry is a problem as there are not many options much less options for a lance infantry with decent to high resistance. Lance infantry never had a gen 3 unit and still does not have a gen 4 unit in the regular summoning pool. Both soiree Berkut and Ephraim & Lyon are seasonal. What's even worse is that the last demote was Lukas back in April 14, 2017. At least axe cavalry, flier, and infantry had grail units if not later on for some of the types, demotes. The dumbest thing with this all is because of the high amount of stats gen 4 melee units have to play with, unless the developers make it so the new, eventual lance infantry demote have low resistance or choose to gimp them with gen 3 BST because why not, they could end up with average to good resistance let alone speed just because of they don't have any other stat to dump their points in.

Who is there to create more lance infantry though? I can think of some characters that should have been lance infantry, namely Tobin who really should have been anything but a sword user, but over all lance infantry are rare in Heroes because they're really rare as playable characters in Fire Emblem. And even among bosses most enemies choose to go General. Jarod and Levail are the only lance infantry boss I can think of. Great Lord Dimitri, Devdan and Arran are also up for grabs, but that's pretty much it. Tellius is the only series that gave lance infantry a shot, and to a lesser extent Fates which already have both its spear units included (unless they want to add Haitaka, which honestly I wouldn't object!). The only option they really have for bolstering the spear pool is to ignore cannon and just make units who aren't lance infantry in their own game lance infantry. I suppose they could make a disproportionate number of seasonal units lance infantry, but that wouldn't help much in term of accessibility. Making some Thracia or Mystery of the Emblem characters who aren't yet in the game lance infantry and cite dismounting as a reason (even though dismounted units had to use swords in those games). Or just pull a Narcian and make someone who doesn't even resemble a lance user lance infantry just for the hell of it. Though they don't seem to be that interested in completely ignoring cannon recently.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Jotari

[Kaden]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Who is there to create more lance infantry though?

That's also a problem, but the thing is that they're not introducing them. I guess it's kind of like with axe cavalry where there were chances to introduce someone like Kieran or Lex, but they just didn't. Axe infantry are more common, but it took a while until we started to get more of them. And the times they could have had cavalry or flier use a sword, but didn't and had them use lances instead when lance cavalry and flier are well-populated.

There's also merchant Anna from Awakening for a lance infantry candidate. One thing they can do and one that people would probably dislike heavily is introduce versions of the same character who happen to be able to use lances, start off as infantry before becoming another movement type, or the rare instance of them being part of direct sequel. For shits and giggles, they could even introduce Devdan and Danved at the same time. But that doesn't add much. Sure, we might get infantry version of Forsyth to go with his armored introduction, PoR and RD Nephenee, or Great Lord Chrom using a lance, but it's still picking from a small pool and it might not help much if the character has the same or similar stat spread when we are looking for something else e.g. someone with good resistance where Great Lord Chrom probably would be his usual self with high attack, good to high defense, and low speed and resistance or be gen 4 lance Ogma and become the first lance infantry with <= 13 base resistance.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Kaden said:

That's also a problem, but the thing is that they're not introducing them. I guess it's kind of like with axe cavalry where there were chances to introduce someone like Kieran or Lex, but they just didn't. Axe infantry are more common, but it took a while until we started to get more of them. And the times they could have had cavalry or flier use a sword, but didn't and had them use lances instead when lance cavalry and flier are well-populated.

There's also merchant Anna from Awakening for a lance infantry candidate. One thing they can do and one that people would probably dislike heavily is introduce versions of the same character who happen to be able to use lances, start off as infantry before becoming another movement type, or the rare instance of them being part of direct sequel. For shits and giggles, they could even introduce Devdan and Danved at the same time. But that doesn't add much. Sure, we might get infantry version of Forsyth to go with his armored introduction, PoR and RD Nephenee, or Great Lord Chrom using a lance, but it's still picking from a small pool and it might not help much if the character has the same or similar stat spread when we are looking for something else e.g. someone with good resistance where Great Lord Chrom probably would be his usual self with high attack, good to high defense, and low speed and resistance or be gen 4 lance Ogma and become the first lance infantry with <= 13 base resistance.

Yes, Forsyth should have been infantry from the start just like Lukas. Lance armourers are in no short supply. Grant total of infantry I could see them possibly do. I don't really see them giving us Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn versions of any characters aside from Ike and Sothe. Their designs are just too similar. Maybe Devdan and Danved with one coming a significantly long time after the other.

*Devdan

*Aran

*Jarod

*Great Lord!Dmitri (you could say his original should have been infantry, but I do kind of like that they're mixing up the default and likely Master Class Three Houses lords)

*Fallen Dimitri using his High Lord design.

*Levail

*Maybe Sylvain. He's always mounted as an enemy and has mounted proficiency, but they could still make him infantry without contradicting anything that's really established.

*Lance!Chrom

*Possible Bride!Eirika, given Eirika introduced Brides in Awakening and they use lances there, but then again you could just say bride or Christmas anyone.

*Male or Female Kris (no real infantry lance available in Archanea games, but on the other hand Faye can't use bows and these two characters have no association with anything specific).

*Merchant Anna

*Dismounted Shiida finally using the Wing Lance?

*Maybe dismounted Glade or someone else from Thracia (which let's face it is the group of characters furthest down in the list for cries to get into the game).

I really can't think of any more beyond that that don't go into minor boss territory. And even there I can only think of the previously mentioned Hinata and that one lieutenant that serves as boss at the start of Marth's prologue in Shadow Dragon who doesn't even have a name. Even Levail is pretty damn minor, probably salvaged only by having some kind of associated wepaon. Only the first four from what I mentioned there seem really likely. Jarod could probably get away with having a good res stat since his whole deal is being Miaciah's bitter enemy and he's cannonically taken down by the Black Knight and not her in that one chapter.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Jotari

[Jave]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Forsyth should have been infantry from the start just like Lukas. Lance armourers are in no short supply. Grant total of infantry I could see them possibly do. I don't really see them giving us Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn versions of any characters aside from Ike and Sothe. Their designs are just too similar. Maybe Devdan and Danved with one coming a significantly long time after the other.

*Devdan

*Aran

*Jarod

*Great Lord!Dmitri (you could say his original should have been infantry, but I do kind of like that they're mixing up the default and likely Master Class Three Houses lords)

*Fallen Dimitri using his High Lord design.

*Levail

*Maybe Sylvain. He's always mounted as an enemy and has mounted proficiency, but they could still make him infantry without contradicting anything that's really established.

*Lance!Chrom

*Possible Bride!Eirika, given Eirika introduced Brides in Awakening and they use lances there, but then again you could just say bride or Christmas anyone.

*Male or Female Kris (no real infantry lance available in Archanea games, but on the other hand Faye can't use bows and these two characters have no association with anything specific).

*Merchant Anna

*Dismounted Shiida finally using the Wing Lance?

*Maybe dismounted Glade or someone else from Thracia (which let's face it is the group of characters furthest down in the list for cries to get into the game).

I really can't think of any more beyond that that don't go into minor boss territory. And even there I can only think of the previously mentioned Hinata and that one lieutenant that serves as boss at the start of Marth's prologue in Shadow Dragon who doesn't even have a name. Even Levail is pretty damn minor, probably salvaged only by having some kind of associated wepaon. Only the first four from what I mentioned there seem really likely. Jarod could probably get away with having a good res stat since his whole deal is being Miaciah's bitter enemy and he's cannonically taken down by the Black Knight and not her in that one chapter.

There's also Mozu, who starts as a Villager wielding a lance like Donnell, even though most people raise her as a bow user.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Gatekeeper as a lance user, please.

[Morgan--Grandmaster]

Well, it's been quite a while since I updated this bad boy. Time to make some modifications for the latest wave (I really hope I didn't miss anyone this time...).

3*-4* Units that Need Refines

• Olivia
• Draug
• Bantu
• Donnel
• Valbar
• Ross
• Cecilia
• Tanya
• Setsuna
• Chad
• Wrys
• Lissa 
• Azama
• Nowi
• Libra
• Sheena
• Fae
• Maria
• Lachesis
• Sakura
• Nanna
• Serra
• Soleil
• Shigure

Edited May 5, 2020 by Morgan--Grandmaster

[DefyingFates]

11 minutes ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Well, it's been quite a while since I updated this bad boy. Time to make some modifications for the latest wave (I really hope I didn't miss anyone this time...).

3*-4* Units that Need Refines

• Olivia
• Draug
• Bantu
• Donnel
• Valbar
• Ross
• Cecilia
• Tanya
• Setsuna
• Chad
• Wrys
• Lissa 
• Azama
• Nowi
• Libra
• Sheena
• Fae
• Maria
• Lachesis
• Sakura
• Nanna
• Serra
• Soleil
• Shigure

If you're looking for F2P units I nominate Lyon (personal bias), Clarisse and Canas (because they were outclassed as soon as they arrived).

[Morgan--Grandmaster]

5 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

If you're looking for F2P units I nominate Lyon (personal bias), Clarisse and Canas (because they were outclassed as soon as they arrived).

Thanks for the feedback, but for all intents and purposes, I prioritized units that don't already have exclusive weapons, and are in the regular summoning pool.

[Fabulously Olivier]

53 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

If you're looking for F2P units I nominate Lyon (personal bias), Clarisse and Canas (because they were outclassed as soon as they arrived).

Fun fact, with the resplendent alt, Sophia matches or outclasses Lyon in every stat. You know, while having a refine and access to IVs. He really does need that refine...

Edited May 6, 2020 by Etheus

[SockPuppet]

I am currently building a Henry, but I will definitely build a Lyon as well. Those extra copies helped me out a lot. I hope a refine comes sooner rather than later, but we still need book 1 GHB to continue trickling out...

[Nym]

3 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Well, it's been quite a while since I updated this bad boy. Time to make some modifications for the latest wave (I really hope I didn't miss anyone this time...).

3*-4* Units that Need Refines

• Olivia
• Draug
• Bantu
• Donnel
• Valbar
• Ross
• Cecilia
• Tanya
• Setsuna
• Chad
• Wrys
• Lissa 
• Azama
• Nowi
• Libra
• Sheena
• Fae
• Maria
• Lachesis
• Sakura
• Nanna
• Serra
• Soleil
• Shigure

Ironically, you somehow missed male Morgan.

[Morgan--Grandmaster]

3 minutes ago, Nym said:

Ironically, you somehow missed male Morgan.

Grima's Truth

[Nym]

6 minutes ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Grima's Truth

I don't get what you are trying to say by just the link.

If you meant that he already got a unique weapon, that doesn't mean he can't have a refine. Remember Thunderhead Olwen and Red Tome Erika? Or any units before them that had a unique weapon  and got a refine on their weapon?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Nym

[Morgan--Grandmaster]

1 minute ago, Nym said:

I don't get what you are trying to say by just the link.

If you meant that he already got a unique weapon, that doesn't mean he can't have a refine. Remember Thunderhead Olwen and Red Tome Erika? Or any units before them that had a unique weapon before and got a refine?

D'oh! I've been using the terms "refined weapons" and "exclusive weapons" interchangeably all this time! 😓

 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Well, it's been quite a while since I updated this bad boy. Time to make some modifications for the latest wave (I really hope I didn't miss anyone this time...).

3*-4* Units that Need Refines

• Olivia
• Draug
• Bantu
• Donnel
• Valbar
• Ross
• Cecilia
• Tanya
• Setsuna
• Chad
• Wrys
• Lissa 
• Azama
• Nowi
• Libra
• Sheena
• Fae
• Maria
• Lachesis
• Sakura
• Nanna
• Serra
• Soleil
• Shigure

Azama needs to get some kind of weapon that reflects his personal skill of using bolts of lightning on nearby enemies. Perhaps a weapon that has an attack value equal to half the enemy's damage value on EP. Given his low atk it might not be that crazy OP.

While I'm at it, we need some dragon buffing weapons. Fae would probably make the most sense. Though Fae could buff defenses and Nowi could buff offenses.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

13 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Well, it's been quite a while since I updated this bad boy. Time to make some modifications for the latest wave (I really hope I didn't miss anyone this time...).

3*-4* Units that Need Refines

• Olivia
• Draug
• Bantu
• Donnel
• Valbar
• Ross
• Cecilia
• Tanya
• Setsuna
• Chad
• Wrys
• Lissa 
• Azama
• Nowi
• Libra
• Sheena
• Fae
• Maria
• Lachesis
• Sakura
• Nanna
• Serra
• Soleil
• Shigure

You missed Female Corrin. Who definitely needs one more than the already-viable Nowi.

 

Speaking of Nowi, I hope that when she gets one, it's a sidegrade/ arguably weaker than Lightning Breath, much like Tiki got.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Etheus

[Othin]

So, it seems like they've been tending to make the weapon refinery updates fairly color balanced. Not always exactly, but any given color has pretty good odds of showing up.

With current refinements going up to April 2018 at the latest, it looks like the only non-seasonal green units from that timeframe without exclusive weapons are Cecilia, Fae, Sheena, Legion, Rhajat, and Gerome. There's also the matter of refines for existing weapons, which could go to Hector if they decide to give original Armads its own refine, Gunnthra and Legendary Lyn if they're ready to start handing them out to legendaries, and Dorcas and Grima if they're ready to start giving refines to DC weapons.

That's 11 units, which could take a while to get through (and they'll probably start dipping into some later units before they get through all of them), but 5 of them are Book 2 units, and so far they're still skewing heavily towards Book 1 ones. (In addition, Dorcas is Book 1, but they might not be ready for him yet.) So as someone who has Fae and Cecilia at +10 and could be willing to merge Sheena if she gets a good refine, it looks like there could be some pretty fun stuff on the way.

[Diovani Bressan]

The refinements are here!

[Fabulously Olivier]

Lol. Narcian needed so much more.

[Sayyyaka]

Weighted Lance looks really good, Runeaxe had the right idea but didn't go far enough in salvaging Narcian.  

Here's to hoping Fae is next month.

[Xenomata]

...well so much for his personal skill...

~Gwendy got it pretty good. Not the strongest of refines, but it doesn't clash with Vengeful Fighter, which is good.
~Aaaaand they seriously didn't do shit to the basic effect. COME ON. The refine is pretty good at least, probably not enabling any new builds but at least letting Siegbert do his thing better.
~...meh. Leon's is alright. I'm not sure what it's really enabling for him, but I guess it's still better than what Rebecca got.
~Why did they give yet another Grail unit a refine that they can't really take advantage of themselves...? Ursula at least technically had Threaten Res, but Narc needs to either learn a penalty-inflicting skill or get someone else to do it for him.
Bah whatever, least he's not stuck with just an Emerald Axe anymore.

Well Siegbert got an alright refine. He can do his usual thing better, and that's all I can really ask for. But I am NOT happy they skimped out on making the basic effect better...