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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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2 hours ago, XRay said:

I guess it is a matter of time before we get staff Refines, but waiting until AOTB!Veronica gets a Refine feels kind of long. If they make us wait that long, I hope they are going to give them something bonkers, like Sabotage Pain or Sabotage Gravity without stat check requirements.

That sounds horrifying. "Novel and unique but not necessarily competitive" is fine for plenty of current refines, it's fine for staffs too.

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48 minutes ago, Othin said:

That sounds horrifying. "Novel and unique but not necessarily competitive" is fine for plenty of current refines, it's fine for staffs too.

Sabotage Pain is not that bad on defense; if anything Sabotage Pain is more of a liability. Player Phase teams and Counter-Vantage units would absolutely love getting risk-free damage. Super tank teams should be fighting in loose diamond formation anyways, so it is not really going to affect them either. On offense, it will help against stall teams to offset some of the healing from Bolt Tower (D), but you also run the risk of activating defense team's Wings of Mercy if you dilly dally too long.

Sabotage Gravity on defense could be pretty bad for normal Player Phase teams, but Player Phase teams using Tactics, Gaps, and VS!Azura should not have much issues with it. Super tank teams fighting in loose formation also should not be affected. On offense, Sabotage Gravity will better help players deal with Infantry Pulse and cav line teams.

Edited by XRay

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9 minutes ago, XRay said:

Sabotage Pain is not that bad on defense; if anything Sabotage Pain is more of a liability. Player Phase teams and Counter-Vantage units would absolutely love getting risk-free damage. Super tank teams should be fighting in loose diamond formation anyways, so it is not really going to affect them either. On offense, it will help against stall teams to offset some of the healing from Bolt Tower (D), but you also run the risk of activating defense team's Wings of Mercy if you dilly dally too long.

Sabotage Gravity on defense could be pretty bad for normal Player Phase teams, but Player Phase teams using Tactics, Gaps, and VS!Azura should not have much issues with it. Super tank teams fighting in loose formation also should not be affected. On offense, Sabotage Gravity will better help players deal with Infantry Pulse and cav line teams.

Aether Raids is not the only mode that exists.

If Sabotage Pain is so bad in the only mode you care about, why do you even want it?

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2 minutes ago, Othin said:

Aether Raids is not the only mode that exists.

If Sabotage Pain is so bad in the only mode you care about, why do you even want it?

Sabotage Pain also gives players another way to make low Atk Counter-Vantage units be more viable, and it also makes Counter-Vantage a more viable strategy for Abyssal and PvE content.

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11 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

@Jotari and @DefyingFates I know I am being bad hoping that, but I think her refine can still be really good without it.  I just get a bit worried when they give refines to units I have built up with expensive fodder because if their weapon is really good, but it can't use my original build I feel like I wasted that fodder since I am for the most part F2P. 

What I would like is if she had some kind of Steady Breath or Special Fighter aspect to her refine to charge her special quicker.  Maybe something like if unit's Def > foe's def Special Cooldown charge+1 during unit and foe's attack. That would make running Aether on her for surviviability much easier (and would make it so enemies that actually can out defense her are able to be more effective against her, because as of now with a well built Myrrh anyone who does out defense her is definitely not going to be running enough speed to double her). And it would also give her something to make her weapon still useful against Null Follow Up users.

Edited by Jotari

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21 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

@Jotari and @DefyingFates I know I am being bad hoping that, but I think her refine can still be really good without it.  I just get a bit worried when they give refines to units I have built up with expensive fodder because if their weapon is really good, but it can't use my original build I feel like I wasted that fodder since I am for the most part F2P. 

I know that feeling! It's why I'm so stingy with SI if I think the unit could get a refine some day (right now that's Lyon).

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29 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

I know that feeling! It's why I'm so stingy with SI if I think the unit could get a refine some day (right now that's Lyon).

It's why I am currently also not foddering a huge amount of unts. I have a Yarne + F!M!Corrin ready for Brunnya so she gets ATk/Spd sole 4 + null follow up, but I want to wait for the update since it is high time we get a HM increase. If we go to 10k Hm I would miss out on more than 60K feathers if I foddered stuff right now. So i'm hoping we'll be getting that increase. i'm not waiting forever, but I am done with HM grinding my 366 units already. I need more feathers.

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Hm... surprisingly decent, if simple, batch of refines.

Stalwart Sword: If foe initiates combat, inflicts Atk -6 on foe during combat.
If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Def +5 to unit and neutralizes unit's penalties to Atk/Def during combat.

Hewn Lance: Inflicts Spd -5. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice.
If unit initiates combat, grants Atk/Def +4 during combat and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.

Great Flame: Grants Atk +3. If unit's Def is greater than or equal to foe's Def +1, foe cannot make a follow-up attack. If foe's Range = 2, calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.
(Updated description: previously required Def greater than or equal to foe's Def +5)
At start of combat, if unit's HP is greater than or equal to 25% and unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +5 to unit and neutralize effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks during combat.

Sniper's Bow: Effective against Flying foes. After combat, if unit attacked, deals 7 damage to target and foes within 2 spaces of target, and inflicts Atk/Spd -7 on them through their next actions.
At start of combat, if unit's HP is greater than or equal to 50%, grants Atk/Spd +4 during combat, and if unit is also within 2 spaces of support partner, foe cannot counterattack.

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We now live in a world where a farm boy gets a more powerful weapon than a knight captain (Frederick). 😕

And I actually like Donny, so...

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I breath a sigh of relief when I see that my DC build Myrrh can use her refine.  I am happy.

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Myrrh's refinement is sooo goooood! If she has S support with Male Corrin, and is within 2 spaces of him, she gets +10 to all stats (+4 from Yato and +1 from Ally support within 2 spaces)!

Donnel is decent, I guess.

Draug is interesting. It's a better version of Spring Bartre's sword. I kinda like it.

Clarisse is actually pretty good. She may be useful in AA for me.

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Clarisse's conditional Firesweep is too restrictive. I think she got the worst out of the bunch.

Everyone else's looks decent.

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16 minutes ago, XRay said:

Clarisse's conditional Firesweep is too restrictive. I think she got the worst out of the bunch.

Everyone else's looks decent.

She's a budget Leila that trades offensive power for Chip damage, offensive debuffing and no potentially wonky swap mechanic.

I see that as a huge win for her.

EDIT: Read this on reddit: "So Conditional Firesweep + Atk/Spd Smoke + Swift Sparrow + Savage Blow + Poison Strike?"

Yeah... that's actually nonsense. If it was on a better archer it would be busted.

Edited by Zeo

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~Hm, Draug getting an Atk debuff on his weapon instead of a simple Defense buff means he can take magic on a little better. Not much better, but they could have easily just given him Steady Stance on a weapon. Having the peudo Atk/Def Bond 4 effect is a boon to his defensive ability as well, though he still has some competition in that regard.

~Very simple. Veeeeeeeery simple. And yet still effective... I'm with Anacy on this one, why did Donnel get a 15 might Brave weapon when Freddy got a Hammer with DB3 on it (which isn't even guaranteed Armor death, mind you), yet both have the exact same Atk stat?

~Myrrh's conditions are easier to trigger, and she also disables effects that would try to ignore the disabled follow-up attack. Course she'd still have Null Follow-up to contend with, but she still has a good refine here.

~ @XRay ...isn't this just Leila's dagger on a freebie unit? I really don't think it's that restrictive, you could pair her up with a Guidance Flier and she'd always have her conditions met AND have a wide range of movement. Only thing missing is a decent Atk/Spd stat to take advantage of it.

Edited by Xenomata

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I am so so so happy with Myrrh's. 
basically keep her healthy (thank you Aether) and keep her near a friend and she is tanking everything a hecka lot better. 
and all the pesky things that were giving her trouble before that weren't dragon effectiveness stuff - no longer an issue. ALM. 
I can not complain about this. (I did when i first read it because i read it wrong LOL)

oh wait it doesn't neutralize null followup. 
crap. 

Edited by daisy jane

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6 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

I am so so so happy with Myrrh's. 
basically keep her healthy (thank you Aether) and keep her near a friend and she is tanking everything a hecka lot better. 
and all the pesky things that were giving her trouble before that weren't dragon effectiveness stuff - no longer an issue. ALM. 
I can not complain about this. (I did when i first read it because i read it wrong LOL)

Legendary Alm will still Double Myrrh if he has Null Follow-up.

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28 minutes ago, Zeo said:

She's a budget Leila that trades offensive power for Chip damage, offensive debuffing and no potentially wonky swap mechanic.

I see that as a huge win for her.

Her damage output is awful due to her Weapon and low Atk, so she is going to die from Enemy Phase units who can counter attack. She can try to use Firesweep, but her Firesweep is positioning dependent and extremely teammate dependent, so I do not think it is an easy thing to set up and utilize.

I do not think she is usable in Aether Raids offense. Might be okay on defense with one or two Thrasir teammates, but I think there are better options than Clarisse.

For Arena and Arena Assault, I would just use a regular Firesweep archer or staff unit and not deal with the positioning hassle.

26 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

~ @XRay ...isn't this just Leila's dagger on a freebie unit? I really don't think it's that restrictive, you could pair her up with a Guidance Flier and she'd always have her conditions met AND have a wide range of movement. Only thing missing is a decent Atk/Spd stat to take advantage of it.

Leila can rely on Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers, Clarisse cannot if you want to utilize her stat buff and Firesweep.

Leila can run Desperation and not worry about maintaining a specific HP range outside of being under 75% HP, which is pretty easy. Clarisse needs to maintain between 50% and 75% HP to use her Weapon and Desperation to be safe since her Firesweep is not exactly reliable, and maintaining a specific HP range is not easy. And even with Desperation, it might not even be enough to save her against Distant Counter tanks due to her low Atk and utilizing a Weapon that is not Brave Bow. This drastically limits her targets whom she can debuff. Leila has a much larger pool of targets to choose from since she can kill a much larger variety of units, so she does not have to worry about getting knocked out.

Edited by XRay

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2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Legendary Alm will still Double Myrrh if he has Null Follow-up.

Does Null Follow-Up disable all skills that prevent follow ups? Because Myrrh is now how double follow up protection from her original effect and her new skill. If that didn't give her one layer of protection against Null Follow-Up then I question what the point of having the second protection from follow ups provides. It's not like there's a tonne of very fast units using Bold Fighter.

Edited by Jotari

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Does Null Follow-Up disable all skills that prevent follow ups?

Yes.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Because Myrrh is now how double follow up protection from her original effect and her new skill. If that didn't give her one layer of protection against Null Follow-Up then I question what the point of having the second protection from follow ups provides.

Null Follow-Up can currently not (and will hopefully never be able to) be neutralized. Her refine effect protects her against enemies' guaranteed follow-up effects. Otherwise, enemies with high enough Spd and a guaranteed follow-up skill (Bold Fighter, Hawk King Claw, etc.) would be able to break through Great Flame the same way they could before.

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5 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Yes.

Null Follow-Up can currently not (and will hopefully never be able to) be neutralized. Her refine effect protects her against enemies' guaranteed follow-up effects. Otherwise, enemies with high enough Spd and a guaranteed follow-up skill (Bold Fighter, Hawk King Claw, etc.) would be able to break through Great Flame the same way they could before.

I wouldn’t mind if Swordbreaker 4 would ignore NFU by giving ‘vs sword unit, gain Phantom speed + 30’

But it is a slippery slope.

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4 hours ago, Zeo said:

She's a budget Leila that trades offensive power for Chip damage, offensive debuffing and no potentially wonky swap mechanic.

I see that as a huge win for her.

EDIT: Read this on reddit: "So Conditional Firesweep + Atk/Spd Smoke + Swift Sparrow + Savage Blow + Poison Strike?"

Yeah... that's actually nonsense. If it was on a better archer it would be busted.

 

Feels more like an upgraded version of Jaffar's weapon.

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Firesweep is interesting since I've never pulled an actual Firesweep Bow ever. Not sure she has the stats for it, but she'll be in the back of my mind when considering merge projects.

A little disappointed Donnel's weapon isn't dual-phase, since this just means his all-round stats are wasted. Don't see why I'd use him over Cordelia.

Armours will never be a valid project for me, so as decent as Draug's is, it's immaterial.

___

In the end I still have no real clarity on who my next project will be, even with 240k+ feathers banked right now. Thinking what I might do is just maintain a baseline of 200k and spend any excess on spreading out merges to various characters without focusing on any single one.

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

Leila can rely on Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers, Clarisse cannot if you want to utilize her stat buff and Firesweep.

Leila can run Desperation and not worry about maintaining a specific HP range outside of being under 75% HP, which is pretty easy. Clarisse needs to maintain between 50% and 75% HP to use her Weapon and Desperation to be safe since her Firesweep is not exactly reliable, and maintaining a specific HP range is not easy. And even with Desperation, it might not even be enough to save her against Distant Counter tanks due to her low Atk and utilizing a Weapon that is not Brave Bow. This drastically limits her targets whom she can debuff. Leila has a much larger pool of targets to choose from since she can kill a much larger variety of units, so she does not have to worry about getting knocked out.

I'm not sure I agree. There's only two conditions for Clarisse to maintain her Firesweep effect. Be within 2 spaces of her support ally, and don't fight anyone with a Null C-Disrupt skill or effect (which currently only the skill exists). As long as she meets those conditions, she is allowed to safely debuff the foe by a large amount, and potentially even greatly weaken them if she packs double Savage Blow (21 damage to everyone surrounding the target unit, that's almost half most units HP). And yeah her stats are nowhere near as good as Leila's (31/34 offenses with no asset potential versus 36/41 offenses with asset potential AND a Spd superboon), but as long as she isn't being hit she really can't complain about not being able to kill, cause now the enemy is very much weakened.

If the point is to ORKO the foe then yeah she's not exactly in a good position, but really her role is to poison the foe so someone else can sink the dagger (Kronya looks like a pretty good unit right about now), and it's not exactly hard to weaken the enemy and then retreat.

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1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

Firesweep is interesting since I've never pulled an actual Firesweep Bow ever. Not sure she has the stats for it, but she'll be in the back of my mind when considering merge projects.

Firesweepers are not too dependent on stats. Having high Atk/Spd is nice, but not necessary unless you bring them into high difficulty modes. A Firesweeper, like most Player Phase units, do not mix well with positioning dependent skills. Since her Firesweep is dependent on being close to her Ally Support, I do not think she is going to be that great as it is a hassle to get the positioning right.

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

A little disappointed Donnel's weapon isn't dual-phase, since this just means his all-round stats are wasted. Don't see why I'd use him over Cordelia.

He can instantly activate Galeforce with Time's Pulse, assuming he does not one shot his foe. With a Brave Weapon, he does not care about his Spd stat.

Cordelia with Slaying Lance is dependent on both the Atk stat to pass the Heavy Blade check and the Spd to double.

11 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not sure I agree. There's only two conditions for Clarisse to maintain her Firesweep effect. Be within 2 spaces of her support ally, and don't fight anyone with a Null C-Disrupt skill or effect (which currently only the skill exists). As long as she meets those conditions, she is allowed to safely debuff the foe by a large amount, and potentially even greatly weaken them if she packs double Savage Blow (21 damage to everyone surrounding the target unit, that's almost half most units HP). And yeah her stats are nowhere near as good as Leila's (31/34 offenses with no asset potential versus 36/41 offenses with asset potential AND a Spd superboon), but as long as she isn't being hit she really can't complain about not being able to kill, cause now the enemy is very much weakened.

If the point is to ORKO the foe then yeah she's not exactly in a good position, but really her role is to poison the foe so someone else can sink the dagger (Kronya looks like a pretty good unit right about now), and it's not exactly hard to weaken the enemy and then retreat.

Null C-Disrupt is not a big deal.

What is a big deal is being within 2 spaces of her Ally Support to trigger Firesweep. That is simply impractical in high difficulty modes. Not only do you have to position the her Ally Support correctly, you also have to retrieve the Ally Support out of Enemy Range. Running 2 Dancers/Singers and 1 Ally Support just to support one Firesweeper simply is not practical in my opinion. Even if the Ally Support is an Enemy Phase unit, you cannot always leave a tank in Enemy Range since they can get overwhelmed by the sheer number of foes or get taken out by a foe that counters the tank.

Edited by XRay

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