General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Xenomata]

56 minutes ago, XRay said:

Null C-Disrupt is not a big deal.

What is a big deal is being within 2 spaces of her Ally Support to trigger Firesweep. That is simply impractical in high difficulty modes. Not only do you have to position the her Ally Support correctly, you also have to retrieve the Ally Support out of Enemy Range. Running 2 Dancers/Singers and 1 Ally Support just to support one Firesweeper simply is not practical in my opinion. Even if the Ally Support is an Enemy Phase unit, you cannot always leave a tank in Enemy Range since they can get overwhelmed by the sheer number of foes or get taken out by a foe that counters the tank.

Hence Kronya. Her whole thing is having Vantage if the enemy is already weakened, which Clarisse can do 21 AoE damage in one go. Have someone Dance Clarisse away/Have Kronya punch Clarisse away, leave Kronya isolated, and she has almost free reign to any enemies within reach. Hardy Bearing is not that common a seal run outside AoE Special users, though I wouldn't blame people for getting blindsided by units like Festival Micaiah who just have it on their weapons. The whole idea may also be ruined by a Healer, though they also generally are the squishiest of the bunch (especially Troubadours) so Kronya can target them immediately in a pinch.

...Caeda would work to, but only if the enemy is made up entirely of Armors or swords/axes/lances/bows...

[Humanoid]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Firesweepers are not too dependent on stats. Having high Atk/Spd is nice, but not necessary unless you bring them into high difficulty modes. A Firesweeper, like most Player Phase units, do not mix well with positioning dependent skills. Since her Firesweep is dependent on being close to her Ally Support, I do not think she is going to be that great as it is a hassle to get the positioning right.

He can instantly activate Galeforce with Time's Pulse, assuming he does not one shot his foe. With a Brave Weapon, he does not care about his Spd stat.

Cordelia with Slaying Lance is dependent on both the Atk stat to pass the Heavy Blade check and the Spd to double.

It's a hassle but I figure her primary purpose will be chipping those nigh-invulnerable armours and such in AA. I have plenty of dancers I don't use right now so I could assign her a personal one. Still a little awkward if the target is closer to her than to the dancer, but I guess that just means I should assign a squishy dancer. That said, 200 dew is a hefty investment for a niche unit, though I've been happy to do so in the past. After refining Myrrh, I'm down to ~1000 dew, though admittedly I have 2200 stones to process as well. The counter-argument I suppose is that I could just use a Pain+ healer to do a similar thing, except without the flexibility of a movement assist. Without that, the healer would need Gravity+ for 2-mov targets and wouldn't work at all against tanky ranged units. At any rate, I'd ultimately still have to decide on Clarisse vs Klein if I wanted a +10 foot archer - a battle between finesse and power - so we'll see. Tough task to just match a +2 Legendary Alm as it is.

Donnel on the other hand would just be a one-trick pony for me, as an assassin against soft but fast targets that are difficult to one-shot. I don't have Time's Pulse, and likely never will as I never pull for premium fodder. Besides, my Heavy Blade seal is permanently married to Oscar these days. It's a bit passe these days but I use my 4*+10 Brave Lance+ Est in this manner (and a +1 Cordelia with unrefined Prf), so I might do the same with Donnel as a budget option, spending the 20k feathers but not the dew for now.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Hence Kronya. Her whole thing is having Vantage if the enemy is already weakened, which Clarisse can do 21 AoE damage in one go. Have someone Dance Clarisse away/Have Kronya punch Clarisse away, leave Kronya isolated, and she has almost free reign to any enemies within reach. Hardy Bearing is not that common a seal run outside AoE Special users, though I wouldn't blame people for getting blindsided by units like Festival Micaiah who just have it on their weapons. The whole idea may also be ruined by a Healer, though they also generally are the squishiest of the bunch (especially Troubadours) so Kronya can target them immediately in a pinch.

...Caeda would work to, but only if the enemy is made up entirely of Armors or swords/axes/lances/bows...

Unlike AMH!Hector who can provide out-of-battle damage support from afar, Clarisse needs to get pretty close to the front lines.

In Aether Raids, this simply is not viable. Kronya already has a lot to do using her action to snipe a high priority foe or Healing Tower (D), and she cannot waste her action trying to Smite Clarisse back. Repositioning or Smiting Kronya in is no big deal. Doing that for 2 units is far more difficult since unlike Kronya, Clarisse also needs to be retrieved from Enemy Range. With 1 AMH!Hector, 1 Kronya, 1 Clarisse, and 2 Altinas, you already have 2 Altinas Smiting/Repositioning both Kronya and Clarisse into Enemy Range. And with Kronya needing to snipe the Healing Tower (D) or Ophelia, there is no one else who can retrieve Clarisse.

In Arena Assault, it is a probably more doable, but it is still a huge hassle.

1 hour ago, Humanoid said:

It's a hassle but I figure her primary purpose will be chipping those nigh-invulnerable armours and such in AA. I have plenty of dancers I don't use right now so I could assign her a personal one. Still a little awkward if the target is closer to her than to the dancer, but I guess that just means I should assign a squishy dancer. That said, 200 dew is a hefty investment for a niche unit, though I've been happy to do so in the past. After refining Myrrh, I'm down to ~1000 dew, though admittedly I have 2200 stones to process as well. The counter-argument I suppose is that I could just use a Pain+ healer to do a similar thing, except without the flexibility of a movement assist. Without that, the healer would need Gravity+ for 2-mov targets and wouldn't work at all against tanky ranged units. At any rate, I'd ultimately still have to decide on Clarisse vs Klein if I wanted a +10 foot archer - a battle between finesse and power - so we'll see. Tough task to just match a +2 Legendary Alm as it is.

A Firesweep staff unit does not care about positioning. While they cannot use Reposition, it is still a lot easier to use a Firesweep staff unit than trying to position 2 units at the same time just to active 1 Firesweep, and you still need to retrieve those 2 units afterwards. A Firesweep staff unit is just 1 hassle to deal with. Clarisse and her Ally Support are 2 hassles to deal with.

Edited June 5, 2020 by XRay

[Jotari]

Fallen Celica is the fallen unit from the first set that people are of the opinion is significantly more in need of a refinement than anyone else. So it got me thinking of one and I came up with this.

Beloved Zofia: Grants Def+3. If unit's HP is > 75% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but if unit attacked, unit takes 4 damage after combat.

At the start of turn, if unit's HP is < 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

 

So first off there's a change on her initial effect to make it more lenient. Reducing the requirement from 100% hp to >75%. The combat boost I also increased from 4 to 5. Her new affect is to completely recover her at the start of turn if her HP is less than 50%. This was done for two lure reasons. One, being that Beloved Zofia has innate renewal any way. The second is trying to emulate how Mila revived Celica when she was killed. So at the start of turn if she's low on HP it's like Mila is bringing her back to life (though she's still fallen naturally). This would synergize well as it would mean at the start of every turn she almost always is going to be either healthy enough to get her combat boost or unhealthy enough to get a recovery putting her in combat boos range and charging her special. Reciprocal aid would also be really useful on her. This wouldn't really be a game changer as far as over all unit quality goes, but I think it would make her more fun to use.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Jotari

[DefyingFates]

On 6/8/2020 at 12:30 AM, Jotari said:

At the start of turn, if unit's HP is < 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

A full heal and cooldown recovery is WAYYYY too much. A simple Renewal at 50% or less HP would still fit the lore and what you're trying to do with her 🙂

[Diovani Bressan]

On 6/7/2020 at 8:30 PM, Jotari said:

Beloved Zofia: Grants Def+3. If unit's HP is > 75% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but if unit attacked, unit takes 4 damage after combat.

At the start of turn, if unit's HP is < 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

I agree with @DefyingFates. The refinement effect is too much. I know that she needs a huge help to be able to compete with the sword infantry units of today, but still...

The only full heal skill we have is S Drink, and it is only for Turn 1. Your description works in every turn as soon she reaches 50% HP or below. Like DefyingFates said, Renewal at 50% HP or lower would be nice, and the special charge could be 1 instea of 2, like how Wrath does.

Also, why not remove the HP requirement of the base effect? It would make Beloved Zofia like Fallen Delthea's Death and Barst's Devil Axe, which is pretty good.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

A full heal and cooldown recovery is WAYYYY too much. A simple Renewal at 50% or less HP would still fit the lore and what you're trying to do with her 🙂

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I agree with @DefyingFates. The refinement effect is too much. I know that she needs a huge help to be able to compete with the sword infantry units of today, but still...

The only full heal skill we have is S Drink, and it is only for Turn 1. Your description works in every turn as soon she reaches 50% HP or below. Like DefyingFates said, Renewal at 50% HP or lower would be nice, and the special charge could be 1 instea of 2, like how Wrath does.

Also, why not remove the HP requirement of the base effect? It would make Beloved Zofia like Fallen Delthea's Death and Barst's Devil Axe, which is pretty good.

Full HP healing is fine. Sustainability skills on combat units has always been absolutely pathetic. Having a sustainability that does not suck on a combat unit is fine. The game has mostly been about killing things in one round of combat ever since skill inheritance became a thing, so full HP healing honestly is not even that big of a buff. Also keep in mind that healing on a Player Phase unit makes the unit unworkable with Desperation AND Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers, so that is a huge and massive nerf to a unit's viability for high difficulty modes. There is also a pretty big gap between 75% HP and 50% HP where the Weapon does absolutely nothing.

Personally, I think the idea needs a buff, where the stat boost is effective at HP ≥ 50%, and the healing at HP ≤ 50%. The unit is not going to be working with Wings of Mercy, but at least it works with Desperation and Repel/Close Call to temporarily preserve her bulk and viability as a combat unit without bringing in a healer.

Atk/Spd+5 is good but it is honestly nothing amazing. Special cooldown count-2 is nice, but it is too unreliable to depend on it.

On 6/7/2020 at 4:30 PM, Jotari said:

Beloved Zofia: Grants Def+3. If unit's HP is > 75% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but if unit attacked, unit takes 4 damage after combat.

At the start of turn, if unit's HP is < 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

For practical application, I personally prefer Ragnarok's Refinement where it removes the HP requirement and adds Brazen Atk/Spd. Being able to use Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers is pretty important.

Since the your idea is not going to be working with Wings of Mercy, I think your idea needs a little more of a buff to make forgoing Wings of Mercy worth it. Changes in red.

On 6/7/2020 at 4:30 PM, Jotari said:

Beloved Zofia: Grants Spd+3. If unit's HP ≥ 50% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but if unit attacked, unit takes 5 damage after combat.

At the start of turn, if unit's HP ≤ 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by XRay

[Diovani Bressan]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

Beloved Zofia: Grants Spd+3. If unit's HP ≥ 50% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but if unit attacked, unit takes 5 damage after combat.

At the start of turn, if unit's HP ≤ 50%, restores 99 HP and grants Special cooldown count-2.

Hm...  It's not impossible for them to change the base stat boost effect, but I don't expect it at all. I still think they would not change the Def+3 to Spd+3.

[XRay]

38 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Hm...  It's not impossible for them to change the base stat boost effect, but I don't expect it at all. I still think they would not change the Def+3 to Spd+3.

I do not think they will either, but for optimal performance, Spd+3 is better than Def+3.

[Diovani Bressan]

9 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not think they will either, but for optimal performance, Spd+3 is better than Def+3.

Yeah, that I agree. Fallen Celica would like a Spd+3, or even a Atk+3, than a Def+3. 

We can say the same as Mage Eirika, I think. She would prefer a Atk+3 instead of Res+3 to boost her killing potential.

[Othin]

Whatever the effects are, I'm guessing the next batch will be Celica, Legion, Setsuna, and either Effie or Nowi.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

Whatever the effects are, I'm guessing the next batch will be Celica, Legion, Setsuna, and either Effie or Nowi.

Umm. Celica already has a refine. A good one.

[Othin]

5 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Umm. Celica already has a refine. A good one.

Fallen Celica, the one people were talking about refines for since she's one of the best candidates for the next Book 2 refine.

[SuperNova125]

Honestly, I really don't care about Fallen Celica as no matter what they try to pull of she still won't be able to compete or at least have a niche over all the swordies that surpass her in every possible way. Other book 2 units can utilise a possible refine way more productively. The ones I am thinking are, Bownoka, Original Michy, Flora, Horse Chrom, Ishtar, FlyNino/Karla, Lewyn, the Adrift bunch in the distant duture, the Muspel generals (Laegjarn and Helibindi mostly), and last but not least Surtr and Ophelia, those two need refines desperately.  But I can see Celica this month. I just want Fae to get a good refine soon enough and maybe Flora somewhere down the line as I remembered I have a +1 that could use one. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by SuperNova125

[XRay]

17 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

Honestly, I really don't care about Fallen Celica as no matter what they try to pull of she still won't be able to compete or at least have a niche over all the swordies that surpass her in every possible way.

Giving her Ragnarok treatment will do the trick. That is Atk/Spd +11. It will be more than enough to surpass the stats of the latest gen IV units. Whether the extra stats is enough to offset the extra effects of the later units is more debatable, but I think it is enough in most cases.

Mareeta has 35/42, and her sword gives Atk/Spd+4 for a total of 85 offensive stats.

FH!Celica has 35/35 and got extra Flowers for Atk/Spd+1, and if she gets treatment similar to Ragnarok, her sword will give Atk/Spd+11 for a total of 94 offensive stats.

[SuperNova125]

 

54 minutes ago, XRay said:

Giving her Ragnarok treatment will do the trick. That is Atk/Spd +11. It will be more than enough to surpass the stats of the latest gen IV units. Whether the extra stats is enough to offset the extra effects of the later units is more debatable, but I think it is enough in most cases.

Mareeta has 35/42, and her sword gives Atk/Spd+4 for a total of 85 offensive stats.

FH!Celica has 35/35 and got extra Flowers for Atk/Spd+1, and if she gets treatment similar to Ragnarok, her sword will give Atk/Spd+11 for a total of 94 offensive stats.

Well that's an interesting idea, perhaps the Brazen effect could apply to all stats and for a reduced amount of stats +5 or 6 instead of 7 it can have another effect. Another option is for the Atk/Spd Brazen effect to be paired with a slaying effect (Leif did something similar as well), or a desperation. Basically, something more than a simple Atk Spd Brazen. 

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

A full heal and cooldown recovery is WAYYYY too much. A simple Renewal at 50% or less HP would still fit the lore and what you're trying to do with her 🙂

 

11 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I agree with @DefyingFates. The refinement effect is too much. I know that she needs a huge help to be able to compete with the sword infantry units of today, but still...

The only full heal skill we have is S Drink, and it is only for Turn 1. Your description works in every turn as soon she reaches 50% HP or below. Like DefyingFates said, Renewal at 50% HP or lower would be nice, and the special charge could be 1 instea of 2, like how Wrath does.

Also, why not remove the HP requirement of the base effect? It would make Beloved Zofia like Fallen Delthea's Death and Barst's Devil Axe, which is pretty good.

Beloved Zofia does have renewal, so a renewal being part of the refine would make sense. But the thing is, renewal kind of sucks. I mean, it's not the worst skill in the world, but it's application is better used in stuff like Chain Challenge. If you make it conditional Renewal below 50% HP, then that really does suck entirely, as that's never going to make any significant impact. Flat out regular renewal (or Alvis's every turn recovery ring) could work and would be underwhelming if that's all there is, but renewal under half HP is basically useless. In addition, Fallen Celica is far from the bulkiest of units, so I don't think giving her full recovery under half HP would be broken at all. It'd still be quite easy to take her out.

9 hours ago, XRay said:

Full HP healing is fine. Sustainability skills on combat units has always been absolutely pathetic. Having a sustainability that does not suck on a combat unit is fine. The game has mostly been about killing things in one round of combat ever since skill inheritance became a thing, so full HP healing honestly is not even that big of a buff. Also keep in mind that healing on a Player Phase unit makes the unit unworkable with Desperation AND Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers, so that is a huge and massive nerf to a unit's viability for high difficulty modes. There is also a pretty big gap between 75% HP and 50% HP where the Weapon does absolutely nothing.

Personally, I think the idea needs a buff, where the stat boost is effective at HP ≥ 50%, and the healing at HP ≤ 50%. The unit is not going to be working with Wings of Mercy, but at least it works with Desperation and Repel/Close Call to temporarily preserve her bulk and viability as a combat unit without bringing in a healer.

Atk/Spd+5 is good but it is honestly nothing amazing. Special cooldown count-2 is nice, but it is too unreliable to depend on it.

For practical application, I personally prefer Ragnarok's Refinement where it removes the HP requirement and adds Brazen Atk/Spd. Being able to use Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers is pretty important.

Since the your idea is not going to be working with Wings of Mercy, I think your idea needs a little more of a buff to make forgoing Wings of Mercy worth it. Changes in red.

 

I would love Wings of Mercy to be innate on her weapon given that Fallen Celica is a witch and witches can teleport, but I decided to limit it to just the one extra effect as I don't think we've seen two entirely different and distinct effects added to a refine like that. Although if it is possible then absolutely, throw innate Wings of Mercy on her. In fact make it an Unrestricted Wings of Mercy that let's her teleport to any unit regardless of HP requirements.

Regarding removing the HP requirement, this wouldn't synergize with a recovery skill, as it would mean you want her to always be in Brazen Desperation range which recovery would work counter too. It would also basically make her a clone of her regular form only in melee range. The whole point is to make her a unit that fights better at full HP and a recovery aspect to keep her there. To that extent a guaranteed follow up attack or something like Forseti's inverse desperation could be added to her first skill.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Jotari

[XRay]

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I would love Wings of Mercy to be innate on her weapon given that Fallen Celica is a witch and witches can teleport, but I decided to limit it to just the one extra effect as I don't think we've seen two entirely different and distinct effects added to a refine like that. Although if it is possible then absolutely, throw innate Wings of Mercy on her. In fact make it an Unrestricted Wings of Mercy that let's her teleport to any unit regardless of HP requirements.

Unconditional Wings of Mercy/Escape Route on her is not bad, although I think being able to activate Dancers'/Singers' Wings of Mercy is generally more important for mobility since they are the engines for mobility.

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Regarding removing the HP requirement, this wouldn't synergize with a recovery skill, as it would mean you want her to always be in Brazen Desperation range which recovery would work counter too. It would also basically make her a clone of her regular form only in melee range. The whole point is to make her a unit that fights better at full HP and a recovery aspect to keep her there. To that extent a guaranteed follow up attack or something like Forseti's inverse desperation could be added to her first skill.

The point of the HP requirement removal is to make her more similar to her regular counterpart so players would actually want to use her. For practical application, it is easier to use a nuke that works with Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers than a nuke that does not work with them. Desperation is also an important effect for most Player Phase units to have. Even with the suggested buffs I gave to your idea, I think most players would still brush her off no matter how unique her play style is since uniqueness alone is not what wins battles. For a similar example, Cordelia's Weapon with special Refinement is considered pretty bad for most players because it does not synergize with the tried and true Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers.

Basically, Player Phase units in general do not want high HP. Player Phase units that want high HP are generally not considered to be very good due to issues with Desperation and not working with Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers.

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, XRay said:

Unconditional Wings of Mercy/Escape Route on her is not bad, although I think being able to activate Dancers'/Singers' Wings of Mercy is generally more important for mobility since they are the engines for mobility.

The point of the HP requirement removal is to make her more similar to her regular counterpart so players would actually want to use her. For practical application, it is easier to use a nuke that works with Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers than a nuke that does not work with them. Desperation is also an important effect for most Player Phase units to have. Even with the suggested buffs I gave to your idea, I think most players would still brush her off no matter how unique her play style is since uniqueness alone is not what wins battles. For a similar example, Cordelia's Weapon with special Refinement is considered pretty bad for most players because it does not synergize with the tried and true Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers.

Basically, Player Phase units in general do not want high HP. Player Phase units that want high HP are generally not considered to be very good due to issues with Desperation and not working with Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers.

But the game is more boring if we make it so every single unit is running Brazen Atk/Spd + Desperation, I think. Other alternatives can be implemented. Especially when we have a cast this big to experiment with. Making Fallen Celica like regular Celica wouldn't do anything for Fallen Celica since regular Celica already exists and can do that stuff at range. A Fallen Celic athat can heal would also help her as a mixed phase unit instead of being purely player phase. Melee units trend better towards being enemy phase units anyway.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

But the game is more boring if we make it so every single unit is running Brazen Atk/Spd + Desperation, I think. Other alternatives can be implemented. Especially when we have a cast this big to experiment with. Making Fallen Celica like regular Celica wouldn't do anything for Fallen Celica since regular Celica already exists and can do that stuff at range. A Fallen Celic athat can heal would also help her as a mixed phase unit instead of being purely player phase. Melee units trend better towards being enemy phase units anyway.

Boring but effective units get used more often. While Celica is better over all, FH!Celica can Galeforce relatively consistently using Time's Pulse and Flashing Blade Sacred Seal, and Galeforce is something most ranged units cannot do.

Even if you turn FH!Celica into a dual phase unit, her Enemy Phase portion is heavily compromised due to recoil damage, and the healing does not come online until the start of your next turn. For easy but grindy modes, you can autobattle and have the AI charge your dual phase unit into a group of enemies, but you can still expect your units to come out alive most of the time. FH!Celica's recoil damage significantly lowers her ability to fight through multiple rounds of combat in a single turn.

There simply is not enough support available for Player Phase units who want high HP to work well. Lewyn and SR!Laegjarn partially solves that issue with reverse Desperation, but their damage output is significantly compromised, and setting up Escape Route on Dancers/Singers is a lot more difficult than setting up Wings of Mercy.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Boring but effective units get used more often.

And we have plenty of them already.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And we have plenty of them already.

We do, but most players who have invested into a unit they like prefer something practical over something unique. Outside of Galeforcers and a few Counter-Vantage units, melee units do not form a key part of my strategy, so I personally do not care if FH!Celica got something unique to play with even if it is not practical, but I imagine that players who have invested into her want something useful. Brave Sword and Slaying Edge are good Weapons, but I think most of them want an exclusive Weapon that they can actually use in any mode rather than a Weapon that is only used as a score stick. Until we get Dancers/Singers who can warp to anyone and reverse Desperation to support a high HP play style, I do not think a high HP play style is desirable for people who actually use FH!Celica.

BH!Lyn's Refine is pretty unique in terms of turning her into an Enemy Phase ranged cavalry unit, but extremely few use BH!Lyn that way. Similarly, Cordelia's Refine just is not that great. Since I use both a lot, it is pretty disappointing to see the Refinements they got. For players who do not use these units, then sure, diversity is great. For players who use them on a daily basis though, most of us want something practical. Cordelia's Weapon is not too bad since you can just use Spd Refine, but BH!Lyn's Weapon is unusable unless the player is one of the few who actually uses BH!Lyn as an Enemy Phase unit.

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, XRay said:

We do, but most players who have invested into a unit they like prefer something practical over something unique. Outside of Galeforcers and a few Counter-Vantage units, melee units do not form a key part of my strategy, so I personally do not care if FH!Celica got something unique to play with even if it is not practical, but I imagine that players who have invested into her want something useful. Brave Sword and Slaying Edge are good Weapons, but I think most of them want an exclusive Weapon that they can actually use in any mode rather than a Weapon that is only used as a score stick. Until we get Dancers/Singers who can warp to anyone and reverse Desperation to support a high HP play style, I do not think a high HP play style is desirable for people who actually use FH!Celica.

BH!Lyn's Refine is pretty unique in terms of turning her into an Enemy Phase ranged cavalry unit, but extremely few use BH!Lyn that way. Similarly, Cordelia's Refine just is not that great. Since I use both a lot, it is pretty disappointing to see the Refinements they got. For players who do not use these units, then sure, diversity is great. For players who use them on a daily basis though, most of us want something practical. Cordelia's Weapon is not too bad since you can just use Spd Refine, but BH!Lyn's Weapon is unusable unless the player is one of the few who actually uses BH!Lyn as an Enemy Phase unit.

If pragmatism was key then players wouldn't have invest in fallen Celica, as she was never that amazing even when she first debuted.

[Humanoid]

Refine: Evil Celica now throws her sword.

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If pragmatism was key then players wouldn't have invest in fallen Celica, as she was never that amazing even when she first debuted.

Celica was not that amazing either, but with Ragnarok being pretty good, players had a reason to switch from Rauðrblade back to Ragnarok.

Sometimes players just summon a character because they like them. They still want to optimize them as much as possible.