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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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14 minutes ago, XRay said:

Celica was not that amazing either, but with Ragnarok being pretty good, players had a reason to switch from Rauðrblade back to Ragnarok.

Sometimes players just summon a character because they like them. They still want to optimize them as much as possible.

And sometimes players want their characters to not be balanced around the Mystery of the Emblem Book 2 philosophy. Which is to say every single unit being identical. This is basically the same conversation that pops up whenever there's a new refine and you chime in hoping it's a mesiter weapon with special spiral and permanent vantage saying it would power creep Kronya. If we do that for everyone then we wouldn't have distinct units. We'd basically have different costumes for the same half dozen units.

Edited by Jotari

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And sometimes players want their characters to not be balanced around the Mystery of the Emblem Book 2 philosophy.

I agree that not every player cares about how good a Weapon is as long as it is unique, but I think most players who use them on a daily basis want something practical.

I use BH!Lyn every day, and I was less than thrilled when I saw her Refine. For players who use FH!Celica or any other unit daily, I think it would be better to give their players' wants and desires more weight.

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20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And sometimes players want their characters to not be balanced around the Mystery of the Emblem Book 2 philosophy. Which is to say every single unit being identical. This is basically the same conversation that pops up whenever there's a new refine and you chime in hoping it's a mesiter weapon with special spiral and permanent vantage saying it would power creep Kronya. If we do that for everyone then we wouldn't have distinct units. We'd basically have different costumes for the same half dozen units.

I wouldn't bother arguing this any further. I stopped since Xray's comments always seem to be generated from an automated reply system that does not allow for any variation and always pumps out the same formulated answers.  There is no variance possible in his way of thinking because there is no place for variance in his way of playing.  In the "ask questions thread" his answers are in most cases decent advice, with cookie cutter builds, but you won't ever see something being recommended that breaks the mould or is designed with a specific use in mind. There's just no room for things other than Brave/Fury/Desp/Brazen in this game apparently.

I've just given up since the reasoning can be way of, I mean, Null follow up's biggest use being able to break wary fighter? That's just lack of game understanding. 

Brave Lyn's Mulagir refine for example is made to turn her into an EP phase range cav. Where this leap of logic came from i don't know, but Spectrum buffs based on a speed check can be used both phases. In a vacuum, this refine is Player Phase oriented, since you can more easily utilise the field buffs on your unit on PP, so it's easier to pass the spd check. On turn 1 the enemy doesn't even have the ability to get field buffs themselves so it's a great weapon to initiate with on turn 1 in most battles. The fact that it is on Mulagir however, gives it some Ep merit. this is however because of the base weapon effect, and not the refine. Since Mulagir ignores field buffs it's easier to pass the spd check on EP as well. But that has nothing to do with the refine. Brave Lyn has some merit -and it's not much because even with +4 to her stats her defenses are not amazing- as a EP unit because of the base effect of her weapon. her refine turns from mostly player phase to somewhat mixed phase because of the weapon, not he other way around. It mainly enhances her PP, but mulagir gives it a niche as a mixed phase weapon because of the dull effect.

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4 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

In the "ask questions thread" his answers are in most cases decent advice, with cookie cutter builds, but you won't ever see something being recommended that breaks the mould or is designed with a specific use in mind. There's just no room for things other than Brave/Fury/Desp/Brazen in this game apparently.

I would not recommend builds that I myself would not use or builds that I have not seen in action enough times. With resources being limited for most players, I do not think it is a good idea to go after alternative builds if they do not give a sufficient level of return. Cookie cutters are tried and true, and I would be doing a great disservice if I recommended anything else and that something else turns out to be a dud.

If my boss or client asks me to recommend them somewhere to park their cash short term, I am going to tell them the boring advice to park it in CDs and maybe bonds. Getting creative and telling them to park it in stocks is just asking for trouble if shit-hits-the-fan and their businesses need to convert those assets back to cash as soon and as much as possible. If they tell me they have a boatload of cash and can afford to be more risky, then sure, I would recommend ETFs and mutual funds.

Unless a player tells me they want the unit to go tank busting or be a super tank, if a player asks me to recommend a build for a unit with decent Atk/Spd, I am going to recommend the standard Player Phase Desperation build since it is cheap, effective, easy to use, and gives the most bang for your buck.

4 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Brave Lyn's Mulagir refine for example is made to turn her into an EP phase range cav. Where this leap of logic came from i don't know, but Spectrum buffs based on a speed check can be used both phases. In a vacuum, this refine is Player Phase oriented, since you can more easily utilise the field buffs on your unit on PP, so it's easier to pass the spd check. On turn 1 the enemy doesn't even have the ability to get field buffs themselves so it's a great weapon to initiate with on turn 1 in most battles. The fact that it is on Mulagir however, gives it some Ep merit. this is however because of the base weapon effect, and not the refine. Since Mulagir ignores field buffs it's easier to pass the spd check on EP as well. But that has nothing to do with the refine. Brave Lyn has some merit -and it's not much because even with +4 to her stats her defenses are not amazing- as a EP unit because of the base effect of her weapon. her refine turns from mostly player phase to somewhat mixed phase because of the weapon, not he other way around. It mainly enhances her PP, but mulagir gives it a niche as a mixed phase weapon because of the dull effect.

In most cases, dual phasing is not particularly amazing in my opinion. Outside of Counter-Vantage units, I have not seen dual phase units being used to great effect compared to single phase builds.

As for BH!Lyn, I do not remember the last time I saw any BH!Lyn with Mulagir. There is absolutely no reason to use Mulagir for Player Phase when Brave Bow and Firesweep Bow exists. Unless the player is telling me they are absolutely short on resources or something, I cannot in good conscience recommend Mulagir.

For dual phasing, I do not think BH!Lyn is great for that due to lack of stats and key skills in general. Mulagir completely wrecks her Player Phase performance for an Enemy Phase performance that is hardly impressive. She does neither phase well.

For Enemy Phase, she can tank ranged magic nukes relatively decently, but that is about it. That is a huge waste of her mobility and Player Phase performance when other units can do the tanking role better.

Mulagir is sort of cheap, but I do not think it is effective, easy to use, and it definitely does not give much bang for 200 Dew.

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Personally, I'll take a weapon meant for a niche but novel role over one with a stronger but saturated role any day. I don't want more units to do the stuff my existing ones can already do a tiny bit better, I want units that can cover roles I don't already have someone built for. 

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17 hours ago, XRay said:

There is absolutely no reason to use Mulagir for Player Phase when Brave Bow and Firesweep Bow exists.

Mulagir is a direct competitor to Firesweep Bow and is comparable in power. It has 5 Atk and 8 Spd over Firesweep Bow, which gives Mulagir + Sacae's Blessing the exact same damage as Firesweep Bow + Poison Strike when doubling while also having a better chance of doubling the opponent and dealing damage that can kill, which it gets in exchange for not blocking counterattacks from dragons, beasts, and ranged units (though its built in Dull Ranged helps against ranged units) and missing out on the stat boost against a handful of extremely fast opponents.

As for getting Mulagir's stat boosts, with Life and Death 4, +0 Brave Lyn [+Spd] has 48 visible Spd. The absolute fastest units in the game in terms of visible Spd (using exclusive weapons when available and running a Spd Asset) are Leila, New Year Lethe, and Duo Marth with 48 visible Spd at +0 merge. Of these, only Leila is likely to be running a visible Spd boost in her passive skills as she has Life and Death 4 by default, but Leila is also extremely rare on defense teams in any PvP mode.

(And in Aether Raids, you can just run double Peony during Light season.)

So yes, there is very much a reason to run Mulagir now. It doesn't strictly beat Firesweep Bow, but it certainly isn't outclassed anymore.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Mulagir is a direct competitor to Firesweep Bow and is comparable in power. It has 5 Atk and 8 Spd over Firesweep Bow, which gives Mulagir + Sacae's Blessing the exact same damage as Firesweep Bow + Poison Strike when doubling while also having a better chance of doubling the opponent and dealing damage that can kill, which it gets in exchange for not blocking counterattacks from dragons, beasts, and ranged units (though its built in Dull Ranged helps against ranged units) and missing out on the stat boost against a handful of extremely fast opponents.

And that is a huge downside. Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep are not a good replacement for Firesweep and cannot compete with it directly. If the player is running Sacae's Blessing, they might as well run Brave Bow for killing power. Distant Counter dragons are relatively common in Aether Raids and ranged units are even more common. Unless the player lacks resources or something to get Firesweep Bow, there is no reason to use Sacae's Blessing that can deal with only a portion of problematic units and leave the team vulnerable to problematic dragons, beasts, and ranged units.

There is no reason to use Mulagir. If you want damage output, run Brave Bow. If you want to actually reliably counter problematic foes, you run Firesweep.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

And that is a huge downside. Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep are not a good replacement for Firesweep and cannot compete with it directly. If the player is running Sacae's Blessing, they might as well run Brave Bow for killing power. Distant Counter dragons are relatively common in Aether Raids and ranged units are even more common. Unless the player lacks resources or something to get Firesweep Bow, there is no reason to use Sacae's Blessing that can deal with only a portion of problematic units and leave the team vulnerable to problematic dragons, beasts, and ranged units.

There is no reason to use Mulagir. If you want damage output, run Brave Bow. If you want to actually reliably counter problematic foes, you run Firesweep.

Game modes not called "Aether Raids" exist, and I don't use player-phase teams in Aether Raids anyways (other than an Ophelia-centered team used for dealing with armors in boxes), so Lyn is irrelevant to me there regardless of her build.

I use Legendary Lyn almost exclusively in Arena Assault where she is one of my picks for dealing with all of the new annoying things (Fallen Ike, Duo Ephraim, Duo Alm, Young Marth, Young Caeda, etc.), which I find far more difficult to deal with than dragons (which have dedicated counters) and beasts (which are rare), and happen to almost all be sword, lance, and axe units. Dull Ranged is actually occasionally useful for sniping various tome units because high-tier Arena defense teams almost exclusively use Rally-type Assist skills (and I've been seeing a rise in Oath, Rouse, and tier-4 Hone skills).

Outside of Arena Assault where redundant roles are generally unnecessary, Brave Bow is better done by Legendary Leaf, and Firesweep is better done by any cavalry staff.

 

Even in Aether Raids, beasts are rare outside of Tibarn, Naesala, and the herons, and none of them run Distant Counter. The only ones that do are Keaton and Caineghis (since I don't think I've ever seen Nailah used, not like she'd matter anyways since she'd likely run Null C-Disrupt anyways).

Edited by Ice Dragon

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Legendary Lyn

BRAVE Lyn you mean?
And by the way, @XRay sometimes Mulagir does outperform Brave Bow. I recently only managed to clear Mila's LHB because I swapped BHLyn back to refined Mulagir from Brave Bow, since she didn't double and barely missed the attack to kill with BB, while having Mulagir not only secured the kill, but also allowed her to EP-kill another enemy (one of the mages), which she, again, failed to do with BB (and, in fact, she got doubled and killed).

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Game modes not called "Aether Raids" exist, and I don't use player-phase teams in Aether Raids anyways (other than an Ophelia-centered team used for dealing with armors in boxes), so Lyn is irrelevant to me there regardless of her build.

I use Legendary Lyn almost exclusively in Arena Assault where she is one of my picks for dealing with all of the new annoying things (Fallen Ike, Duo Ephraim, Duo Alm, Young Marth, Young Caeda, etc.), which I find far more difficult to deal with than dragons (which have dedicated counters) and beasts (which are rare), and happen to almost all be sword, lance, and axe units. Dull Ranged is actually occasionally useful for sniping various tome units because high-tier Arena defense teams almost exclusively use Rally-type Assist skills (and I've been seeing a rise in Oath, Rouse, and tier-4 Hone skills).

Outside of Arena Assault where redundant roles are generally unnecessary, Brave Bow is better done by Legendary Leaf, and Firesweep is better done by any cavalry staff.

 

Even in Aether Raids, beasts are rare outside of Tibarn, Naesala, and the herons, and none of them run Distant Counter. The only ones that do are Keaton and Caineghis (since I don't think I've ever seen Nailah used, not like she'd matter anyways since she'd likely run Null C-Disrupt anyways).

Game modes that are not Aether Raids have much lower stakes because you can just restart over and over again.

Outside of CE!Chrom and GA!Lucina, Arena Assault is piss easy because you can just counter pick. However, being able to have a ton of Firesweep archers and Dancers/Singers who can just shut down anything problematic requires even less brain juice since you do not have to think about dedicated counters. The only time I need to look for dedicated counters is when I see Null C-Disrupt, VS!Azura, and annoying blue archers.

11 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

BRAVE Lyn you mean?
And by the way, @XRay sometimes Mulagir does outperform Brave Bow. I recently only managed to clear Mila's LHB because I swapped BHLyn back to refined Mulagir from Brave Bow, since she didn't double and barely missed the attack to kill with BB, while having Mulagir not only secured the kill, but also allowed her to EP-kill another enemy (one of the mages), which she, again, failed to do with BB (and, in fact, she got doubled and killed).

There are some outlier cases where Mulagir can help, but for vast majority of the time, Brave Bow is better in my opinion.

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23 hours ago, XRay said:

I would not recommend builds that I myself would not use or builds that I have not seen in action enough times. With resources being limited for most players, I do not think it is a good idea to go after alternative builds if they do not give a sufficient level of return. Cookie cutters are tried and true, and I would be doing a great disservice if I recommended anything else and that something else turns out to be a dud.

If my boss or client asks me to recommend them somewhere to park their cash short term, I am going to tell them the boring advice to park it in CDs and maybe bonds. Getting creative and telling them to park it in stocks is just asking for trouble if shit-hits-the-fan and their businesses need to convert those assets back to cash as soon and as much as possible. If they tell me they have a boatload of cash and can afford to be more risky, then sure, I would recommend ETFs and mutual funds.

Though there is nothing wrong with Fury Desp builds ads a cheap option, saying they outperform most other builds is just factually untrue. 

Because what you're currently doing is not what you say you're doing. You're currently acting like a doctor that just prescribes Painkillers for every issue that patients come up with. Stubbed toe? Painkillers. Period cramps? Painkillers. Dislocated shoulder? Painkillers. Heart failure? Painkillers. Collapsed lung? Painkillers. And that's just bad advice in most cases. Arena requires specific skills, most of them for scoring, to be effective. Arena Assault requires hard counters, for which firesweep is great. PvE can be beaten with motsly brave bow. But Aether Raids, which is split into Offense and Defense, requires vastly different builds which also all depends on what team comp you're running.

23 hours ago, XRay said:

Unless a player tells me they want the unit to go tank busting or be a super tank, if a player asks me to recommend a build for a unit with decent Atk/Spd, I am going to recommend the standard Player Phase Desperation build since it is cheap, effective, easy to use, and gives the most bang for your buck.

Instead of just spouting out a premade answer, maybe ask what role in what mode the unit is supposed to be fulfilling. Brave Lyn needs different sets for different modes, so just saying "brave or firesweep is the answer", maybe ask what she is going to be used for. 

23 hours ago, XRay said:

In most cases, dual phasing is not particularly amazing in my opinion. Outside of Counter-Vantage units, I have not seen dual phase units being used to great effect compared to single phase builds.

As for BH!Lyn, I do not remember the last time I saw any BH!Lyn with Mulagir. There is absolutely no reason to use Mulagir for Player Phase when Brave Bow and Firesweep Bow exists. Unless the player is telling me they are absolutely short on resources or something, I cannot in good conscience recommend Mulagir.

For dual phasing, I do not think BH!Lyn is great for that due to lack of stats and key skills in general. Mulagir completely wrecks her Player Phase performance for an Enemy Phase performance that is hardly impressive. She does neither phase well.

For Enemy Phase, she can tank ranged magic nukes relatively decently, but that is about it. That is a huge waste of her mobility and Player Phase performance when other units can do the tanking role better.

Mulagir is sort of cheap, but I do not think it is effective, easy to use, and it definitely does not give much bang for 200 Dew.

I never said that B!Lyn should be used as a dual phase unit, I was merely pointing out that your assesment of her refine being an EP oriented refine was bogus. Because this may surprise you, Mulagir is useful in one mode, but might be shit in a different mode. Same goes for brave and firesweep. For example:

Arena is not included since she isn't a useful unit because of BST.

Arena Assault: Mulagir with base kit would be my main recommendation, since she gets firesweep because of her B skill. No need to refine if low on resources since savage blow fire sweep can get the job done. Using brave bow is an investment of 20K feathers which I wouldn't do because she has firesweep in her kit. Fire sweep bow is even worse since it requires summoning for a 5* unit when she has firesweep available anyway. It's Arena Assault, so you can just counterpick her matchup.

PvE: Brave bow as an added option is great, Mulagir can be used depending on the map. But brave bow is absolutely decent here.

Aether raids Defense, abipasta setup: Firesweep is most common here, though budding bow is also very popular.

AR-D: Cav line: Cheap option? Mulagir. High investment: Budding bow. Budding bow has an impact effect and can be refined for Hp, which can help vs B!Fjorm if needed to spec into that. Most importantly, Budding bow means Lyn will most likely survive a hit, and put her in WoM Range which allows for follow up attacks. The HP thresholds for this defense map are important so having quite reliable ways to trigger it means Duma/Thrasir/Lif/Mirabilis can follow up more easily.

AR-O: Hit and Run usually runs firesweep since brave bow means granting more special acceleration to the enemy units. Depending on the rest of the team it can be regular firesweep or Mulagir + Blessing.

AR-O: WoM chain: Budding bow again, being able to safely get into WoM range without bolt tower or bolt trap is huge, and can set up galeforce strats, hit and run if needed and also has flexibility in t's refine. 

Also important to mention is that Lul Spd/Def is absolutely king on most of these builds, desperation is not seen often.

 

So maybe ask what the unit is going to be used for first, because cookie cutter in this day and age really does not cut it anymore. There are too many different modes and meta's to just slap Fury Depseration on a unit and say it will perform well. Fury desperation is fine for PvE, but what isn't. Cookie cutter is fine to have as a backup cheap build, but to do well and have the most useful builds suited for each and every game mode requires actual different builds and weapons. Depending on player resources you can cut back on the fodder needed, such as budding bow, since it is also 5* exclusive. But to just slap Brave/Firesweep/Fury/Desp on every unit and it's grandmother is just bad advice to every player out there.

 

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

And that is a huge downside. Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep are not a good replacement for Firesweep and cannot compete with it directly. If the player is running Sacae's Blessing, they might as well run Brave Bow for killing power. Distant Counter dragons are relatively common in Aether Raids and ranged units are even more common. Unless the player lacks resources or something to get Firesweep Bow, there is no reason to use Sacae's Blessing that can deal with only a portion of problematic units and leave the team vulnerable to problematic dragons, beasts, and ranged units.

There is no reason to use Mulagir. If you want damage output, run Brave Bow. If you want to actually reliably counter problematic foes, you run Firesweep.

Distant counter dragons, much like most dragons, suck ass on AR defense. You don't need brave bow when you just slap dragon effectiveness on B!Lyn by having her hug Naga for a turn. in Light you have mystic boost available to neuter dragons. Dragons are a non issue. And on offense, you pretty much need S!Iddun vs highly invested defense maps to support your dragons and armours since not many dragons like taking Thrasir etc to the face. It can be done, as ice dragon has proven, but dragons in general are not the greatest concern.

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Game modes not called "Aether Raids" exist, and I don't use player-phase teams in Aether Raids anyways (other than an Ophelia-centered team used for dealing with armors in boxes), so Lyn is irrelevant to me there regardless of her build.

I use Legendary Lyn almost exclusively in Arena Assault where she is one of my picks for dealing with all of the new annoying things (Fallen Ike, Duo Ephraim, Duo Alm, Young Marth, Young Caeda, etc.), which I find far more difficult to deal with than dragons (which have dedicated counters) and beasts (which are rare), and happen to almost all be sword, lance, and axe units. Dull Ranged is actually occasionally useful for sniping various tome units because high-tier Arena defense teams almost exclusively use Rally-type Assist skills (and I've been seeing a rise in Oath, Rouse, and tier-4 Hone skills).

Outside of Arena Assault where redundant roles are generally unnecessary, Brave Bow is better done by Legendary Leaf, and Firesweep is better done by any cavalry staff.

 

Even in Aether Raids, beasts are rare outside of Tibarn, Naesala, and the herons, and none of them run Distant Counter. The only ones that do are Keaton and Caineghis (since I don't think I've ever seen Nailah used, not like she'd matter anyways since she'd likely run Null C-Disrupt anyways).

Well said.

 

16 minutes ago, XRay said:

Game modes that are not Aether Raids have much lower stakes because you can just restart over and over again.

Outside of CE!Chrom and GA!Lucina, Arena Assault is piss easy because you can just counter pick. However, being able to have a ton of Firesweep archers and Dancers/Singers who can just shut down anything problematic requires even less brain juice since you do not have to think about dedicated counters. The only time I need to look for dedicated counters is when I see Null C-Disrupt, VS!Azura, and annoying blue archers.

There are some outlier cases where Mulagir can help, but for vast majority of the time, Brave Bow is better in my opinion.

If game modes not named Aether Raids have much lower stakes, because you can restart over and over, they naturally should also require less investment since you can just restart. Why give B!Lyn a brave bow or firesweep bow when you can get through with mulagir if you restart enough times?

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4 hours ago, Kruggov said:

BRAVE Lyn you mean?

Yeah. That. I blame Legendary Leaf for confusing me.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Game modes that are not Aether Raids have much lower stakes because you can just restart over and over again.

Some of us would rather not waste an hour restarting Aether Raids over and over and would like to just have it done on the first try. Yeah, the stakes are lower, but they're not so low that I can just brush them aside as if they didn't exist.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Outside of CE!Chrom and GA!Lucina, Arena Assault is piss easy because you can just counter pick. However, being able to have a ton of Firesweep archers and Dancers/Singers who can just shut down anything problematic requires even less brain juice since you do not have to think about dedicated counters. The only time I need to look for dedicated counters is when I see Null C-Disrupt, VS!Azura, and annoying blue archers.

And on my end, I have zero trouble with Legendary Chrom or Legendary Lucina since they are piss easy to bait with a bulky green unit (and I have tons of those).

Edited by Ice Dragon

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3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Though there is nothing wrong with Fury Desp builds ads a cheap option, saying they outperform most other builds is just factually untrue. 

That is because standard Player Phase builds DO outperform most setups for raw damage output. Brave Bow is absolutely superior to most exclusive bows the stronger the stat boost the A slot provides.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Because what you're currently doing is not what you say you're doing. You're currently acting like a doctor that just prescribes Painkillers for every issue that patients come up with. Stubbed toe? Painkillers. Period cramps? Painkillers. Dislocated shoulder? Painkillers. Heart failure? Painkillers. Collapsed lung? Painkillers. And that's just bad advice in most cases. Arena requires specific skills, most of them for scoring, to be effective. Arena Assault requires hard counters, for which firesweep is great. PvE can be beaten with motsly brave bow. But Aether Raids, which is split into Offense and Defense, requires vastly different builds which also all depends on what team comp you're running.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

So maybe ask what the unit is going to be used for first, because cookie cutter in this day and age really does not cut it anymore. There are too many different modes and meta's to just slap Fury Depseration on a unit and say it will perform well. Fury desperation is fine for PvE, but what isn't. Cookie cutter is fine to have as a backup cheap build, but to do well and have the most useful builds suited for each and every game mode requires actual different builds and weapons. Depending on player resources you can cut back on the fodder needed, such as budding bow, since it is also 5* exclusive. But to just slap Brave/Firesweep/Fury/Desp on every unit and it's grandmother is just bad advice to every player out there.

Unless the player specifies, the assumption I make concerning builds is that the player is looking for a performance build and not scoring, and they are going to be using the unit manually themselves rather than using it on defense.

Standard Player Phase build work in just about any mode. The only mode where it does not work is in Røkkr Sieges since the Røkkr cannot die via combat, and it is far easier to just run a Galeforcer with Guard.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

I never said that B!Lyn should be used as a dual phase unit, I was merely pointing out that your assesment of her refine being an EP oriented refine was bogus. Because this may surprise you, Mulagir is useful in one mode, but might be shit in a different mode. Same goes for brave and firesweep. For example:

You need raw damage output in practically every mode. Archers are not the best units for raw damage nukes, but players may need archers to fulfill that role, so Brave Bow is always worth a mention. The only time I do not recommend Brave Bow is when the unit's exclusive bow rivals Brave Bow in damage output.

Firesweep is not necessary in Abyssal due to the mode having much less problematic units, but it is useful in PvP modes due to players using lots of problematic units on defense. While dedicated counters can take out problematic units much faster, Firesweepers can take out any problematic unit. For Aether Raids, this allows the players to run more variety of teams since they do not have to run multiple teams of the same type with the dedicated counter being the only variation. Firesweep archers are easy to use and have high single target damage, so archers are usually better than staff units for Firesweep role in my opinion.

Mulagir is useful in a very few situations. I am not going to mention something so niche over something that will give the player far more value in a lot more situations. I can include mentions of using Guard and Bonds on a Player Phase unit and say that these skills are useful in very niche cases where they may want to not charge a foe's Special or have the nuke avoid debuffs, but that is not going to help the player much who usually needs something more general.

No other unit can use Mulagir and BH!Lyn cannot do dual phase well, so there is not much point to consider Mulagir for dual phase purposes. That leaves Enemy Phase as the only other build type that is worth mentioning Mulagir for. With dual phase out the picture and Brave Bow and Firesweep being better options for Player Phase, that leaves Mulagir as an Enemy Phase oriented Weapon.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Arena is not included since she isn't a useful unit because of BST.

Not everyone plays Arena super competitively aiming to stay in Tier 21. If the player just want the most rewards as possible for the least amount of effort possible, BST is mostly irrelevant since a player with a team of maxed merged units should have no trouble bouncing between Tier 19 and Tier 20, which is where I am at right now. It is totally achievable with 2 ranged cavalry and 1 Dancer/Singer core, the lowest BST units, and the player will just need a 500 SP Special to help them avoid ranged cavalry teams. Rallies, Duels, Hone 4s, etc. are totally unnecessary.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Arena Assault: Mulagir with base kit would be my main recommendation, since she gets firesweep because of her B skill. No need to refine if low on resources since savage blow fire sweep can get the job done. Using brave bow is an investment of 20K feathers which I wouldn't do because she has firesweep in her kit. Fire sweep bow is even worse since it requires summoning for a 5* unit when she has firesweep available anyway. It's Arena Assault, so you can just counterpick her matchup.

Running Firesweep Bow in Arena Assault is not for everyone due to the cost involved, but the price the player pays for gives a big convenience.

Being able to quickly setup every team as Firesweep-Dancer/Singer-Dancer/Singer-random nuke greatly speeds up Arena Assault because you do not have to worry about counters most of the time since Firesweep counters just about anything. The only thing a player needs to do is to give a quick glance for Null C-Disrupt and a handful of unpredictable units, and if those are not there, then there is no need to even bother with counter picking.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

AR-D: Cav line: Cheap option? Mulagir. High investment: Budding bow. Budding bow has an impact effect and can be refined for Hp, which can help vs B!Fjorm if needed to spec into that. Most importantly, Budding bow means Lyn will most likely survive a hit, and put her in WoM Range which allows for follow up attacks. The HP thresholds for this defense map are important so having quite reliable ways to trigger it means Duma/Thrasir/Lif/Mirabilis can follow up more easily.

BB!Fjorm's HP is too high to reliably win the HP check for BH!Lyn. BH!Lyn needs to run HP skills to have any reliability of avoiding Gjallarbrú, and running HP skills significantly weaken her combat performance. Even with HP stacking, BH!Lyn is not likely to win the HP check unless she goes all out on HP.

If both stack HP to the max and got double Mythics, BB!Fjorm reaches 70 HP while BH!Lyn only reaches 66 HP. The opportunity cost for BB!Fjorm to fully stack HP is pretty low since she is just giving up Sabotage on B and Chill on Sacred Seal, and she will just be running Sudden Panic on B instead. The opportunity cost for BH!Lyn to stack HP like that is that she is going to have huge issues with killing things.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

AR-O: Hit and Run usually runs firesweep since brave bow means granting more special acceleration to the enemy units. Depending on the rest of the team it can be regular firesweep or Mulagir + Blessing.

As I have mentioned previously, the problem with Sacae's Blessing is that the player needs to run additional dedicated counters. Firesweepers can counter anything problematic, compressing the role of multiple dedicated counters to just one unit and saving team slots.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

AR-O: WoM chain: Budding bow again, being able to safely get into WoM range without bolt tower or bolt trap is huge, and can set up galeforce strats, hit and run if needed and also has flexibility in t's refine. 

While BH!Lyn can be a Wings of Mercy beacon on a Galeforce team, I think the Galeforce team would be better off to just have their Wings of Mercy beacon also be a Galeforcer.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Also important to mention is that Lul Spd/Def is absolutely king on most of these builds, desperation is not seen often.

In my opinion, Desperation is king. Lull Spd/Def is only relevant if BH!Lyn does not care about multiple rounds of combat or survivability. On defense, Desperation is crap, but on offense, most players need raw damage nukes to go through multiple rounds of combat.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Distant counter dragons, much like most dragons, suck ass on AR defense. You don't need brave bow when you just slap dragon effectiveness on B!Lyn by having her hug Naga for a turn. in Light you have mystic boost available to neuter dragons. Dragons are a non issue. And on offense, you pretty much need S!Iddun vs highly invested defense maps to support your dragons and armours since not many dragons like taking Thrasir etc to the face. It can be done, as ice dragon has proven, but dragons in general are not the greatest concern.

Not everyone has Naga, and Eir is not a reliable counter for all dragons. Wasting a slot to run Falchion or another a dedicated counter does not make sense if you can just run Firesweep to basically counter any problematic unit.

3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

If game modes not named Aether Raids have much lower stakes, because you can restart over and over, they naturally should also require less investment since you can just restart. Why give B!Lyn a brave bow or firesweep bow when you can get through with mulagir if you restart enough times?

Brave Bow provides raw damage output that Mulagir cannot match. Killing things more effectively helps the player save time. This is less of an issue in Arena Assault, but it is much more of a problem for Abyssal since you need high damage output to mow through multiple foes quickly to avoid being overwhelmed.

Firesweep is not super necessary for non Aether Raids PvP modes, but it saves a lot of time and frustration. Firesweep counters anything problematic in Arena so the player does not have to worry about bringing multiple counters. With enough Firesweepers and Dancers/Singers in Arena Assault, the player can just use the same team composition over and over again to save time without looking for dedicated counters.

39 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Some of us would rather not waste an hour restarting Aether Raids over and over and would like to just have it done on the first try. Yeah, the stakes are lower, but they're not so low that I can just brush them aside as if they didn't exist.

I assume you mean Arena Assault.

Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep just are not good enough to replace Firesweep. For saving time, Firesweep is even better than dedicated counters since all the player needs to do is to just scan for Null C-Disrupt and whatever annoying enemies the player has issue dealing with, and then just sort by Blessing and pick a Firesweeper, double Dancers/Singers, and whatever random unit the player wants.

Edited by XRay

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

I assume you mean Arena Assault.

Yeah. That.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep just are not good enough to replace Firesweep.

The fact that I have zero trouble using Brave Lyn with Mulagir and Sacae's Blessing says otherwise. Units that Sacae's Blessing doesn't work on have been decreasing in usage at the high end of Arena defense for a while now, meaning Firesweep Bow's advantage in versatility is no longer as valuable as before, and getting the boost in Spd from Mulagir (again, we're talking about a difference of 8 Spd, which is almost a full Darting Blow 4) is now more relevant with the current Spd creep and the slowly increasing usage of Repel and Close Call due to increased distribution and the continuing release of more fast infantry.

As for Windsweep, Spring Fir and Young Merric are both extremely viable with the skill for the exact same reasons, and it even works on bows and beasts (daggers are largely irrelevant), not to mention their stat spreads and weapon effects combined are significantly stronger than Firesweep units, and even more so than Lyn. That only leaves dragons and tomes. Dragons already have extremely effective hard counters (with Legendary Marth, Legendary Julia, and Thrasir leading the pack) than can be covered by a teammate, and Fir has no issue with tomes because the only tome unit that runs Close Counter at the high end of the Arena is Duo Alfonse, who is blue and will just roll over and die.

Watersweep is shit for the same reason that Windsweep is actually good now.

 

Reminder to self that I should actually finish building Fir.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

For saving time, Firesweep is even better than dedicated counters since all the player needs to do is to just scan for Null C-Disrupt and whatever annoying enemies the player has issue dealing with, and then just sort by Blessing and pick a Firesweeper, double Dancers/Singers, and whatever random unit the player wants.

Poison Strike stalling is slower than just beating the crap out of things with weapon triangle advantage and effective damage.

If you know your barracks and have a diverse enough selection, you should be able to figure out exactly what team composition you need for a given map and team without much effort anyways. The time savings from picking the same team composition each time isn't going to make all that much of a difference, if at all.

And if you're poking at things anyways, Gravity is still way more braindead to use since you don't need to spend time figuring out how to get out of the way after each attack. Just whack and Draw Back until dead.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that I have zero trouble using Brave Lyn with Mulagir and Sacae's Blessing says otherwise. Units that Sacae's Blessing doesn't work on have been decreasing in usage at the high end of Arena defense for a while now, meaning Firesweep Bow's advantage in versatility is no longer as valuable as before, and getting the boost in Spd from Mulagir (again, we're talking about a difference of 8 Spd, which is almost a full Darting Blow 4) is now more relevant with the current Spd creep and the slowly increasing usage of Repel and Close Call due to increased distribution and the continuing release of more fast infantry.

As for Windsweep, Spring Fir and Young Merric are both extremely viable with the skill for the exact same reasons, and it even works on bows and beasts (daggers are largely irrelevant), not to mention their stat spreads and weapon effects combined are significantly stronger than Firesweep units, and even more so than Lyn. That only leaves dragons and tomes. Dragons already have extremely effective hard counters (with Legendary Marth, Legendary Julia, and Thrasir leading the pack) than can be covered by a teammate, and Fir has no issue with tomes because the only tome unit that runs Close Counter at the high end of the Arena is Duo Alfonse, who is blue and will just roll over and die.

Watersweep is shit for the same reason that Windsweep is actually good now.

Reminder to self that I should actually finish building Fir.

Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep have more conditions for them activate. Firesweep's only condition is that the foe is not running Null C-Disrupt.

Firesweep is stable and is less affected by the swings of the meta compared to other Sweeps.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Poison Strike stalling is slower than just beating the crap out of things with weapon triangle advantage and effective damage.

If you know your barracks and have a diverse enough selection, you should be able to figure out exactly what team composition you need for a given map and team without much effort anyways. The time savings from picking the same team composition each time isn't going to make all that much of a difference, if at all.

And if you're poking at things anyways, Gravity is still way more braindead to use since you don't need to spend time figuring out how to get out of the way after each attack. Just whack and Draw Back until dead.

Firesweep-Poison Strike is slower, but it is guaranteed that you will counter almost anything problematic that pops up. My fourth random unit is usually a raw damage nuke that kills most things in one round of combat. Pumping up a cavalry/flier Blade mage is no more difficult than killing things with color advantage and effectiveness. Reinhardt, other slow Brave nukes, one shot nukes, etc. need even less pumping since all they care about is just Atk buffs.

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9 hours ago, XRay said:

Sacae's Blessing, Windsweep, and Watersweep have more conditions for them activate. Firesweep's only condition is that the foe is not running Null C-Disrupt.

Having more conditions to activate is irrelevant if those conditions are fulfilled.

 

9 hours ago, XRay said:

Firesweep is stable and is less affected by the swings of the meta compared to other Sweeps.

Future changes to the meta are irrelevant to the current state of the meta.

Making your units potentially better in the future at the cost of losing performance now is still a loss of performance now.

 

9 hours ago, XRay said:

Firesweep-Poison Strike is slower, but it is guaranteed that you will counter almost anything problematic that pops up.

Counter-picking is also guaranteed to counter the team you're currently going up against. The entire team. No "almost" necessary.

Again, making your units better against everything else that isn't on the team you're currently going up against doesn't help you fight the team that you're going up against.

 

9 hours ago, XRay said:

Pumping up a cavalry/flier Blade mage is no more difficult than killing things with color advantage and effectiveness.

Telling Micaiah to send the armor over there into the stratosphere is still easier than pumping a unit full of buffs to do the same thing.

I don't need to make sure that my team has the right buffs on it before starting the map because I don't need to rely on buffs to get the job done. (Besides cavalry, who always have Hone Cavalry, though I don't use Litrblade cavalry anyways.)

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37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Having more conditions to activate is irrelevant if those conditions are fulfilled.

More conditions to fulfill means you have to double check more.

39 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Future changes to the meta are irrelevant to the current state of the meta.

Making your units potentially better in the future at the cost of losing performance now is still a loss of performance now.

For me, the meta already has minor but noticeable swings week to week. And sometimes within the same week you may get matched with more or less annoying teams than usual. I see a spike of annoying archers during Water-Wind Season. Sometimes, I do not see a lot of armor units. Occasionally, but more pleasantly, I get a few armor teams consecutively and it gets really easy.

With Firesweep, I do not have to do much checking or adjust my play style unless Null C-Disrupt, CE!Chrom, and GA!Lucina show up.

47 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Telling Micaiah to send the armor over there into the stratosphere is still easier than pumping a unit full of buffs to do the same thing.

I don't need to make sure that my team has the right buffs on it before starting the map because I don't need to rely on buffs to get the job done. (Besides cavalry, who always have Hone Cavalry, though I don't use Litrblade cavalry anyways.)

Once you pump up your nuke, the nuke is equally effective against multiple types of units. There is no need to match the right units to the right enemies since raw damage nukes will generally kill anything that comes their way, and anything they cannot kill can be handled by the Firesweeper. If the whole team is mostly just armor units or flying units, then yeah, I will pick my fourth unit to be Micaiah or a second archer, but teams do not always consist of mostly a single movement type. I usually see a mix of two or three movement types.

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31 minutes ago, XRay said:

More conditions to fulfill means you have to double check more.

I don't remember the last time I had to double check if Ragnell was a sword or if my Windsweeper with 60 Spd before Phantom Spd outspeeds a unit.

 

36 minutes ago, XRay said:

For me, the meta already has minor but noticeable swings week to week.

Sure, but those swings aren't going to suddenly cause a resurgence of units that are immune to Windsweep. You might see one new unit per team every 2 weeks due to being a bonus unit, and they might stay on the team afterwards if they're good enough as a point stick, but it takes months to completely swap out an entire team's high-level composition. We're no longer in the age of dragon armors, and physical melee infantry and armors are here to stay for some time.

And I highly doubt you're going to be fighting 7 consecutive matches and have no matches that Windsweep or Sacae's Blessing could be used against.

 

34 minutes ago, XRay said:

Once you pump up your nuke, the nuke is equally effective against multiple types of units.

Yes. Once you pump up your nuke.

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Dark Royal Spear, Gloom Breath,  and Crimson Axe will be added to Berkut, FemCorrin, and Sheena. Fallen Celica gets to be the first Fallen Hero to get a refine.

I suspect salt, so just get on with it...

Edited by Xenomata

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Sheena will finally be able to score a bit higher for me. That’s nice. If they just slap Fort Def Res on her weapon or something boring like that I’ll be happy. I really don’t care much for what she’ll get. Though dmg reduction would be cool.

 

I have a 5 star corrin from year one, probably won’t be getting her refine. 

I could have a +2 F!Celica, and I might give her the refine if she becomes useful in AA because of it.

 

Berkut is not even going to see his 5* form unless the refine has ‘auto win a map’ the skill on it.

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Looks good to me. Fae and Cecilia are still the ones I'm most looking forward to, since I've already got them at +10, but Sheena and Corrin are up there, as units I might merge if their weapons are good enough. Berkut and Celica are also solid.

I'm hoping the next few months bring Fae, Cecilia, Legion, Valter, and Setsuna.

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How nice that three characters I have been wanting to get refines (Sheena, F!Corrin and FH!Celica) are all getting them in the same batch. Especially FH!Celica, Beloved Zofia was underwhelming when it first came out and hopefully it gets revamped like Ragnarok did. Sheena getting a prf weapon is great since she will probably keep the slaying effect and will get another effect from the refine. Hopefully F!Corrin will get something nice to justify taking Lightning Breath off mine and to help give her an edge over Nowi.

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