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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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So, if I'm counting everything right, the Book 1 non-staff/seasonal/DC units awaiting refines are:

  • Red:
    • No prf: Olivia (dancer), Arden (grail)
    • Has prf: Sigurd/Seliph, Ayra, Arvis (grail), Joshua (grail)
  • Blue:
    • No prf: Effie, Nowi, Azura (dancer), Ninian (dancer)
    • Has prf: Olwen/Reinhardt, Valter (grail)
  • Green:
    • No prf: Fae
    • Has prf: Hector

Only 7 of them are missing prfs entirely, and 3 of those are dancers which they still seem to be avoiding. Which is interesting. There's also 7 prfs awaiting refines, if we count Dire Thunder and regular Armads. Which, at this point, I feel like we should. They just announced a refine for Maltet, and that's a super upgraded version of regular Armads.

One way or another, the current pattern of one Book 1 grail unit and two Book 1 non-grail units doesn't seem like it can last much longer. September seems like it'll take a break from that pattern anyway, so after that, we might be on a new pattern entirely.

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Yeah, I was a bit disappointed to find out next month's batch would be a special case, not because of the specific units as such, but because I'd liked to have some clarity on the future direction of the refines. There are a bunch of marginal ones for me like Cain and Abel's which would be useful for my barracks but would end up unaffordable if they start up the DC weapon refines anytime soon.

And yeah, Armads has no reason to be excluded, I mean look at it compared to refined Binding Blade. The latter has QR5, Dragon Effectiveness, Bracing Stance 2 and +3 HP. The former has ...QR2. But I suppose the existence of Berserk Armads means it can wait until last.

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:40 AM, Kaden said:

I wonder what the Japanese name for Sneering Axe is.

"Axe of the Laughing Face".

 

On 8/1/2020 at 11:40 PM, Xenomata said:
  • I can't tell what Hector's Maltet got, as he doesn't enter combat and the skill only appears for a split second. If anyone wants to hazard a guess, here's the snippit that appears in the video.

Two red arrows facing left indicates an effect relating to follow-ups, as can be seen in the icon for Bow of Beauty.

There are no icons with a white "x" yet, so there's no definitive way to know what that means until it's released. Bow of Beauty uses a circle with a slash through it to refer to preventing follow-ups. Deathly Dagger and Nidhogg use a red "x" to indicate blocking counterattacks.

Great Flame's ability to nullify opponents' guaranteed follow-ups is indicated with a red... blob thing.

If it isn't just Null Follow-Up in its entirety, my best guess is it's the half of Null Follow-Up that Great Flame doesn't have, i.e. "neutralizes effects that prevent unit's follow-up during combat". Plus a boost to Atk and Def, probably with the same condition as its base effect.

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Hah, perfect! They knew exactly what Cecilia is meant for. Plus bonus flier effectiveness!

Now I need to pick a new A slot for her. Maybe Distant Def 3 for now, since I do have an extra Micaiah. Close Counter could be fun if I ever get another Takumi or something.

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Nothing for me here. If another generalist horse mage comes along to be my main magic nuke, then maybe the refine will have value in her new role, but for now I'm not paying dew for what would be a secondary kit. If only there was a unit with a statline similar to Sylvain but in the general 3-4* pool. Hell, the same statline as Valentine's Titania would be gleefully accepted. L'Arachel comes the closest but also comes with the disadvantage of colour-sharing with Reinhardt.

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~Legion just... HAS a permanent Panic infliction on the foe? Literally the inverse of Chaos Ragnell? And also the Panic Smoke effect that his original axe started with? Awesome. The refine effect seems somewhat iffy if you ran Savage Blow before, but nonetheless good if you can get it off. That it doesn't require Legion himself to be healthy is appreciated.

~Cecilia got pretty much what she wanted. Make her able to kill Colorless better? Great, here you go, also flier effectiveness. Now that her A slot is freed up, what would she appreciate most though...?

~Setsuna... I can only barely see the remnants of the Guard Bow she had previously, and nothing at all of the Assassin Bow she technically starts with. I don't think this'll make her all that much better than she was before, but Setsuna fans at least no longer need to feel embarrassed when trying to use her.

~Shiro... eh. Nothing really surprising here, but at least his Naginata is no longer inferior to like 5 inheritable lances.

I think this was the fastest I refined a brand new weapon.

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Legion is wonderful. We finally get an axe infantry that can compete with Raven and Linus.

Shiro is fine. Simple. Does its job.

Setsuna basically got the "Distantbreaker" that I wanted, so that's nice. Would have been better with +99 Spd, but I'll manage.

Cecilia... eh. I get that she has Gronnraven as her base weapon, but her 22 base Def was never all that great for using Gronnraven in the first place. Well, at least now she can run a different A skill to help with that, but still... eh.

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My girl essentially got Aircalibur in a different name it looks amazing!!! I see some already to downplay the TA effect. Um....she obviously isn't surviving red units to begin with and WHY would she fight Reds in the first place.... This makes her options open as it frees her A slot now and can now take down flyers as well as Blues and Colorless.

Edited by Mage Goddess Lysithea

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Wow Legions's new axe looks pretty good, just like with Clarisse. I bet when they give Erimiya a prf it will be really good too. I'm almost tempted to get a single copy of him from the grail shop. The refines are pretty good overall, but nothing is immediately necessary. Guess I'll save for the CYL 2 refines.

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21 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Cecilia... eh. I get that she has Gronnraven as her base weapon, but her 22 base Def was never all that great for using Gronnraven in the first place. Well, at least now she can run a different A skill to help with that, but still... eh.

I've found her to do quite well at it even before this. TA makes it so her foes still don't hit her that hard, although that does leave her vulnerable to Cancel Affinity.

I run her with Summoner Support, but I think the +3 Mt from the upgrade plus the open A slot means she can do better without SS now than with SS beforehand.

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Cecilia's is pretty focused, which is good. She's not blowing up reds anyway, and this lets me pick a different A-skill for her. I don't know what though. Her B-skill is QR, so should I focus on having her be an EP unit or should I give her death blow?

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Cecilia and Legion are the two learn and forget which is not to say they are bad. Learning Tome of Order gives Cecilia a prf anti-flier and -raven tome. I am a bit glad that I held off having her inherit T-Adept 3 since Tome of Order has it for its unique refinement. She could have had something else like Null C-Disrupt, but a -raven mage with T-Adept is a cheap way to counter stuff and now she's in a similar situation to Boey where her A passive is open for something else. It might not be as great as almost Close Counter and being able to run T-Adept, a tier 4 Stance, or to complete it with Distant Foil in the future, but it's still good in allowing her to combo with T-Adept 3 and whatever else like Fierce Stance 3 from Bantu works for a cheap enemy phase build or keep her Attack +3 for more of a mixed phase one-shot or do as much damage against blue and colorless foes build. Granted, you have to spend Divine Dew for the T-Adept unique refinement which might not be as cheap as just inheriting T-Adept on her. Thematically, it works as a reference to her being defeated by Zephiel.

Sneering Axe's base effect is nutty. It still has the original, refined effect of Panic Smoke 3 from Legion's Axe and adds on top of that an effect that essentially says "F U" to all field buffs. Have or want to 5* Legion? Just learn the damn thing and there you go. He comes with Fury by default, so you don't really need to give him much else to have a decent unit going. The unique refinement is a cherry on top. A unit who is at high HP and was field buffed finding themselves fighting Legion is screwed. That's the combined effects, but the unique refinement also makes it so that he has a more flexible effect in that he just needs to fight someone with >= 75% HP to gain Atk/Spd+5 and a Blade effect, Special cooldown charge +1, as the Bonus Reverser I guess you could call it relies on, well, a foe having a bonus on them.

Setsuna's Yumi was not what I expected. She is the third archer to have a received a bow with an effect that exclusively targets ranged units. The first was Jeorge whose unique refinement for Parthia grants him Atk+6 against ranged units and the second was Faye whose base effect for Bow of Devotion has Spectrum Stance against ranged units. Setsuna's Yumi works on both phases like Parthia's unique refinement, but grants her the same stats as Bow of Devotion. It granting her the same stats regardless of phase is kind of unfortunate when considering Bow of Devotion since while Faye is more of an enemy phase unit, it would have been nice to have those stats boosts on player phase too. What sets it apart is that the unique refinement grants her Atk/Spd+5 and neutralizes penalties on her Atk/Spd in combat if she has a field buff on her. The one thing I'm not sure on is if someone has Dull Ranged or Lull Atk/Spd, does that negate the effect or does she still get Atk/Spd+5 and neutralizes Atk/Spd debuffs because she simply had a field buff?

Damage reduction goes a long way even if it's 30% and only works against mages and Jeorge's base attack is 4 points higher than Setsuna, but his speed is 5 points lower and the differences in their defenses are negligible. Jeorge has the same HP, +2 Def, and -1 Res compared to Setsuna. With Parthia's unique refinement against Setsuna with just her base bow, Jeorge has +6 Atk over her and 30% damage reduction against a mage's first hit, but in return loses out by -9 Spd, -2 Def, and -3 Res. With her unique refinement, Jeorge would only have +1 Atk over her against ranged units if she has a non-attack field buff on her and 30% damage reduction against a mage's first hit, but loses out by -14 Spd, -2 Def, and -3 Res against ranged units and -5 Atk and -5 Spd against physical units if Setsuna has a non-attack or non-speed field buff and being unable to neutralize debuffs on his attack and speed. Setsuna's reliant on field buffs to get the advantage and just as equally prone to panic as him, but she can have higher offenses and be more flexible than him.

Bright Naginata is the most disappointing for me. It works, but it leaves me wanting. Picnic Lukas was introduced with an inheritable version of Bright Naginata, so a lance with Sturdy Stance 2, and regular Lukas ended up with Sturdy Stance 2 as his unique refinement giving him a Killer Lance with Sturdy Stance 2. Not the greatest, but a Killer effect is always useful due to how versatile it is. Bright Naginata ended up as a prf version of Luncheon Lance and a stronger version of Gilt Fork by having Sturdy Stance 2 as its base effect and the 2 space Atk/Def Bond that neutralizes all penalties on him instead of only Atk/Def like Gilt Fork. It's fine, it works with his stats, and it mirrors Siegbert's Dark Greatsword gaining an Atk/Spd and Dull All Solo effect that grants him Atk/Spd+5 and neutralizes his foe's field buffs.

I don't know. Lance infantry is an underpopulated unit type and most of them have good physical defense. While Shiro's resistance isn't that great or his speed compared to units nowadays, he could have made use of both stats. That is to say, I really wished he had gotten Balmung's effect for Bright Naginata; Spectrum Stance that also works if the foe's HP is at 100% and penalty neutralization. They could have overhauled its effect to be that as the unique refinement. He got half in the sense of he still can neutralize penalties if he's within 2 spaces of an ally, but he doesn't get the speed and resistance Shannan or the Krises do. It's asking for more that's all it is, but I did wish we got more for him.

12 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Cecilia's weapon looks worth refining, now I just gotta think of a good A slot for her. She's gonna be an even better blue and colorless counter now that fliers can be obliterated.

Close Counter for full coverage, but if you can have someone to deal with dragons for her and want the Atk/Def boost, the Close Foil. Cecilia's not fast, but grabbing Close Foil and Lull Atk/Spd 3 from Julian should be okay. At worst, Lull Atk/Spd will reduce damage she takes even if she still getting doubled.

Edited by Kaden

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Reminds me of the days where I had 5-6 TA Raven Bowbreaker mages in my barracks just so I could get through all the Bowlyns in AA. Now only two remain in M Robin and Lyon because they have no alternate utility. Since I was too lazy to swap skills between modes I just had an unmerged +Atk Cecilia run that kit while the main one was a full time blade nuke. But I ended up merging them together once that era of oppression was over. Maybe I should have kept her with this refine in mind...

I know I should stop hoarding, but boy am I finding it hard to find any refine I'm unquestionably comfortable spending on. And that's with my current stash of ...1351 Dew and 2391 Stones.

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28 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Cecilia's weapon looks worth refining, now I just gotta think of a good A slot for her.

21 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Cecilia's is pretty focused, which is good. She's not blowing up reds anyway, and this lets me pick a different A-skill for her. I don't know what though.

Death Blow for player phase. Fierce Stance, Sturdy Stance, or Distant Def for enemy phase. Grani's Shield to give Micaiah and Duo Micaiah the finger.

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2 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

I know I should stop hoarding, but boy am I finding it hard to find any refine I'm unquestionably comfortable spending on. And that's with my current stash of ...1351 Dew and 2391 Stones.

You're telling me. Some of the new weapons' base effects are fine enough for me that I don't want particularly care for refining them. Virion's the biggest example when it's a free Sudden Panic unit by having him learn his Dignified Bow or anyone with a prf Brave. Other times, whatever the unit got didn't seem worth it to me to invest at all, for example, I like Oboro, but a Heavy Spear with Close Def 3 is not that appealing.

Meanwhile, 8,230 Heroic Grails and counting.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It seems as though f2p players aren't allowed to have good green cavalry. But I guess Cecilia's is decent enough for what it does.

Free players have access to Python for nuking and BB!Marth for Galeforce. They are not super crazy, but they get the job done.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It seems as though f2p players aren't allowed to have good green cavalry. But I guess Cecilia's is decent enough for what it does.

Cecilia was already a good f2p unit, and now she's even better.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It seems as though f2p players aren't allowed to have good green cavalry. But I guess Cecilia's is decent enough for what it does.

Serious question, are there any particularly good green cavalry?

As for the refines, Legion's seems nuts, so I might actually finally build him. Also doesn't hurt that he manages to still have a solid statline. Shiro's is what it is. I was kind of hoping for a guard effect, so Sturdy Breath 3, but debuff negation is a nice alternative and it'll serve its purpose of making him tankier. Cecilia's I kind of wish had been broken for personal bias reasons, but it'll do it's job and as mentioned, frees up her A slot, so that's nice. Setsuna's seems fine, but I also don't really care at all about her so that one's kind of a non-factor for me.

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Just now, bottlegnomes said:

Serious question, are there any particularly good green cavalry?

As for the refines, Legion's seems nuts, so I might actually finally build him. Also doesn't hurt that he manages to still have a solid statline. Shiro's is what it is. I was kind of hoping for a guard effect, so Sturdy Breath 3, but debuff negation is a nice alternative and it'll serve its purpose of making him tankier. Cecilia's I kind of wish had been broken for personal bias reasons, but it'll do it's job and as mentioned, frees up her A slot, so that's nice. Setsuna's seems fine, but I also don't really care at all about her so that one's kind of a non-factor for me.

Well, Green Olwen isn't the most amazing unit in the world, but she has a refinable blade tome with no cooldown penalty. That's pretty good. Then there's Ranulf if you count beast units.

 

But yes. Green cavalry in general are really, really lacking. Probably the weakest, least saturated unit type.

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2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It seems as though f2p players aren't allowed to have good green cavalry. But I guess Cecilia's is decent enough for what it does.

Are we talking about ranged or in general? Can't say much about ranged when we only have two green mage cavalry and two green bow cavalry who were recently introduced in the 3* to 4* summoning pool or is a grail unit in the case of picnic Leo. Cecilia and picnic Leo and Python and Rath are interchangeable with how similar their stats are. Cecilia back in the day and can still be used as the Gronnblade mage and now she can be specialized as an anti-blue and anti-colorless mage with her Tome of Order which should have been called Aircalibur because apparently it has the same attack animation. Python's 32/35 and Rath's 33/35 base neutral offenses are fine and at least they give people the option of a non-grail or non-5* bow cavalry since the only other options are bride Louise and Halloween Rolf who have the advantage of being colorless. Sue's advantage over them is having 3 more speed making them -Spd versions of her, but they're not 5*-locked at the cost of not having her default kit. In particular, they don't have Swift Sparrow 2 by default.

For physical, Frederick, Gunter, and Titania are specialized in their roles with their prf axes; Frederick crushes armors, Gunter is a support unit, and Titania is a T-Adept and Tactics support unit. Groom Marth and Walhart are the only other options where groom Marth stands out like Titania in that he has decent speed unlike everyone else who is slow and physically bulky. Worst case scenario is you can slap Brave Axe on Frederick or Walhart to have them be an Arena Assault counter unit or something. Being specialized might not be ideal to some, but they are good at their jobs.

The problem which axe cavalry have and is shared with axe fliers and lance infantry is that the developers do not introduce them or enough of them. Axe fliers has never had a 3* to 4* demote. The closest you call to an "axe flier" demote is Reyson and he's a green beast flier and refresh unit. All the F2P accessible axe fliers are either launch units or were introduced as grail units where granted some of them are good like Mininerva and while it sucks for them to be Cherche, but worse, you can slap a Brave Axe on Gerome and call it a day for another Brave Axe flier filler and Haar just needs Death Blow or some attack boosting A passive to get going as also another Brave Axe filler. 5* hasn't been that great either when it's only been in order: New Year's Azura, summer Innes, spring Fir, and recently Hel. But I'm getting off track because the axe fliers situation piss me off at times.

We had chances to get axe cavalry to get in such as Kieren and Lex or even possessed Gunter if they wanted to have him share the same weapon and movement type as regular Gunter among others. Kieren could have showed up with Elincia, Nephenee, and Oscar, but their debut banner was a three person banner with the Black Knight as the TT unit. I think his stats should make him at worst a green Cain which even back then would have been fine when his competition would have only been Titania as the other fast axe cavalry. Lex could have showed up on a Genealogy of the Holy War banner, particularly, Sigurd's since he assisted Sigurd early on. He would have been a default Brave Axe cavalry and perhaps had the same stat spread as Luke where he has too much speed, but at least we would have had another option than Frederick, Titania, and Frederick with veteran BST aka Gunter. Anyone remember Gustav? At this point I'd take a Radiant Dawn version of Titania with Poleaxe+, Sol, Renewal 3 at 5*, and Spur Res 3 at 4* if it meant getting an axe cavalry demote with something like 38 HP, 32 Atk, 36 Spd, 27 Def, and 30 Res.

Green or rather mage cavalry is in another situation where at least the units we do have access to are a worst, okay. Greil's Devoted Titania is the only F2P option for red cavalry mage, but everyone does get a change to get a 5* mage Eirika, green has the two I already mentioned, and blue is loaded when they have Reinhardt. Nobody else needs to be mentioned for blue when Reinhardt exists.

@XRay, I'm curious about your thoughts on Legion considering he's the second axe infantry after Rinkah to have a Blade effect on his axe through its unique refinement where it works off of his foe's HP being >= 75% rather than on enemy phase or not being at full health for Rinkah. There's also the other thing of Legion's defense being much lower than Rinkah making it easier for him to get into certain HP ranges against physical units. He doesn't have access to assets and his base speed with factoring his axe's effects is lower than Navarre's and slightly lower than +Spd Ogma's since Ogma's base neutral speed is 34 and Legion's highest level 1 stats are HP, Atk, and Spd, so he will end up with 40 Spd after merges to +Spd Ogma's 41 after merges.

29 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Serious question, are there any particularly good green cavalry?

Kaden. One of the best support units whose main weakness is being Panicked.

For offense, New Year's Lethe who recently got powercrept by Freyja having the same effects on her beast weapon, but with Distant Counter because why not, summer Selena has the highest offenses for green mage cavalry at 37/37 neutral base offenses and her Exotic Fruit Juice gives her Atk+3 and inflicts Spd/Res-6 on foes within 2 spaces of her, and Yarne's all right for Galeforce where he could run into trouble by one-shotting cavalry units and his base speed could be higher. People could have chosen to summon for and merge summer Sylvain if they wanted a 32/35 base neutral offenses green cavalry. -blade tomes are still powerful and he has the same base neutral attack as Cecilia who people run -blade tome on, but he has 10 more speed than her.

Also, Halloween L'Arachel. Cutest mad scientist ever.

27 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Then there's Ranulf if you count beast units.

Ranulf offers half of what CYL Lucina does with unique refined Geirskogul, but for all units instead of only physical damage units with his Drive Atk/Def. I feel like they should have demoted him over Mordecai since Sabertooth Fang inflicting Atk/Spd/Def/Res-4 on foes within 2 spaces of him and the ally who had a movement assist used on them or who used it on Mordecai seems better than Drive Atk/Def. Sure, we would have gotten a 30/37 base neutral offenses green melee cavalry making him the fastest green melee cavalry available to F2P units, but only by 1 speed compared to groom Marth who has 1 more Atk and groom Marth's HP, Atk, and Spd being his highest level 1 stats means he will match a =Spd Ranulf and have access to other weapons instead of being locked to a support-only weapon.

Edited by Kaden

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34 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

But yes. Green cavalry in general are really, really lacking. Probably the weakest, least saturated unit type.

They are not lacking in my opinion. At the very least, they got player phase, dual phase, and support completely covered.

WOT!Olwen is an amazing nuke. She essentially has 35/40 offensive stat spread. Blade tomes are still the hardest hitting Weapons in the game.

SP!Selena got 37 base Atk, which is pretty good for Counter-Vantage. Her Spd is not lacking either if the player wants to go full player phase.

Yarne can Galeforce during his first round of combat without using Heavy Blade. He is also the only viable Galeforcer for Resonant Battles. For Galeforcers, being able to Galeforce without eating up valuable Sacred Seals is much more important than combat performance.

PP!Veronica got automatic follow-up on both phases. Automatic follow-ups are pretty strong in player hands, and even if Null Follow-Up becomes more common on enemies, that just means other types of nukes on your team will have an easier time dealing with those enemies, as Null Follow-Up does nothing against regular Desperation nukes, Brave nukes, Blazing nukes, one shot nukes, and Galeforcers.

Kaden can provide a huge amount of buffs, much more than M!Corrin, and a shit ton more than Ranulf. Panic is an issue though.

Edited by XRay

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