General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Xenomata]

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

Why wouldn't it be possible? They've only done a handful of brave prf refines so far - one included Cherche, who didn't originally have a brave weapon, while most units that originally had brave weapons have non-brave refines. (Hinoka, Camilla, Ogma, Barst, Cain, Abel, etc.)

Effie is more often used for player phase than most other armors who've gotten refines, due to her higher Atk. So I don't see any reason to expect she'd have to be enemy phase rather than player phase.

Many units who were given a normal Brave weapon previously were given them somewhat haphazardly, such as almost every Archanean unit who did not have a Prf or specific weapon like Navarre having a Killing Edge.

Unlike Cherche, Effie  is a melee armor, and pretty much every melee armor released or given a refine in the last few years has been outfitted with a primarily enemy-phase or mixed phase kit regardless of how well they would do with a Brave set, and even the melee armors who do come with player-phase skills would much rather take an enemy-phase kit. Edelgard is the only exception I can think of, since her personal skill has Galeforce built into it, but imagine if she didn't have that.
Besides that though, Effie has always had a pretty good amount of freedom of weapon choice, and having a Silver Lance makes thing even more complicated given the history of Prfs given to units starting with a Silver weapon.

I'm not saying she can't get a conditional Brave weapon, but I don't think she'll get a TRUE Brave weapon, that is a weapon that has lower Might and comes with a Spd penalty, but strikes twice per attack (dual phase optional).

[XRay]

14 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

and even the melee armors who do come with player-phase skills would much rather take an enemy-phase kit. Edelgard is the only exception I can think of, since her personal skill has Galeforce built into it, but imagine if she didn't have that.

I would argue ANF!Edelgard is also better off as a player phase unit due to her insane mobility. ANF!Edelgard might not have double Galeforce, but she can still trigger one Galeforce and she is far easier to use than FE!Edelgard. Double Galeforce is no doubt fun, but FE!Edelgard still got minor mobility issues that double Galeforce just is not  enough to offset in my opinion.

[bottlegnomes]

9 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Would be interesting if Arvis get an effect that uses his Recovery Ring for something... like an effect/boost if he is at full HP or something, but I don't know what they can do. Honestly, I also expect the same refinement effect for both.

This 100% won't happen, but what if they went with "Effects that trigger at start of turn now occur after every round of combat on applicable turns"? Arvis gets to use his recovery ring to completely offset Fury 4 or just patch up after combas, Saias could do similarly on odd turns with renewal 3, both's ploys get triggered more often and with more flexibility, etc. I don't think it'd be too broken since they can't equip Wrath, Special Spiral and smoke skills have that effect anyway, and most field buffs don't stack. You could also optionally swap the ploy for a chill so it goes debuff strongest enemy -> kill strongest enemy -> debuff next strongest enemy. It'd be a way to make chills a bit more relevant, though still probably suboptimal because you can't always or don't always want to deal with the strongest enemy first. I guess the biggest danger I could see is combining special spiral and time's pulse to give them guaranteed icebergs every turn. Which would be annoying, but let's be honest, is it really any worse than half of what's out there as is?

Edited September 28, 2020 by bottlegnomes

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not sure a Brave Lance is possible myself... they've only given Brave weapons to two armor units, and both are mostly throwaway weapons in the end anyway.
...then again, they've been loading armors up with enemy-phase kits for months now, so... maybe we'll see the first true Brave weapon that only activates on enemy phase?

Personally I would have made the Master Weapons (or Meister Weapons as I guess they're now called) inheritable brave weapons that only activate on enemy phase. Could have power crept brave weapons to dual phase later. I don't really see an enemy phase only brave weapon at this point. A unit designed to be enemy phase, sure, but there's no downside of being able to brave attack on player phase too, so taking that away would be a step backwards.

[Othin]

Another option for a Bold Fighter-supporting weapon for Effie could be a movement boost.

My first idea for implementing it was a base effect of "Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1)" and a refine effect of "At start of turn, if unit's HP ≥ 50%, unit can move 1 extra space", although it occurs to me that Flower Hauteclere has all of that and way more. So it could look a bit silly, but that doesn't mean they won't do it.

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Othin said:

Another option for a Bold Fighter-supporting weapon for Effie could be a movement boost.

My first idea for implementing it was a base effect of "Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1)" and a refine effect of "At start of turn, if unit's HP ≥ 50%, unit can move 1 extra space", although it occurs to me that Flower Hauteclere has all of that and way more. So it could look a bit silly, but that doesn't mean they won't do it.

I like extra mobility. Armor Stride is nice and all, but it still does not fully solve the mobility issue. ANF!Edelgard was the real gamechanger for me, and she is a like a thousand times more intuitive to use than FE!Edelgard.

FE!Edelgard is like a good strong whiskey, but she is super raw and rough on your throat, so you want to take it in shots. ANF!Edelgard is also good and strong, but she is also extremely smooth and refined, and she is something you can sip on all day and night.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

Unlike Cherche, Effie  is a melee armor, and pretty much every melee armor released or given a refine in the last few years has been outfitted with a primarily enemy-phase or mixed phase kit regardless of how well they would do with a Brave set, and even the melee armors who do come with player-phase skills would much rather take an enemy-phase kit.

I think the main reason why Effie has a chance to get a player-phase-focused weapon despite most of the refines for armored units being enemy-phase or dual-phase is the fact that she has Death Blow as a default skill. Mind, I think a dual-phase weapon is more likely, but a pure player-phase weapon is not out of the question, especially because a Brave weapon would work well with her default Death Blow and Wary Fighter.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

This 100% won't happen, but what if they went with "Effects that trigger at start of turn now occur after every round of combat on applicable turns"? Arvis gets to use his recovery ring to completely offset Fury 4 or just patch up after combas, Saias could do similarly on odd turns with renewal 3, both's ploys get triggered more often and with more flexibility, etc. I don't think it'd be too broken since they can't equip Wrath, Special Spiral and smoke skills have that effect anyway, and most field buffs don't stack. You could also optionally swap the ploy for a chill so it goes debuff strongest enemy -> kill strongest enemy -> debuff next strongest enemy. It'd be a way to make chills a bit more relevant, though still probably suboptimal because you can't always or don't always want to deal with the strongest enemy first. I guess the biggest danger I could see is combining special spiral and time's pulse to give them guaranteed icebergs every turn. Which would be annoying, but let's be honest, is it really any worse than half of what's out there as is?

That would be fun to synergize with Valflame's base effect for ploys too. Missed the enemy you want to hit with ploys at the start of the turn? No worries, just attack them or another enemy and they'd be hit with it afterwards. It's almost give Alvis default Seal/Smoks skills in addition to ploys. though I maintain in light of Seal and Smoke skills the debuff effect needs to be stronger.

[bottlegnomes]

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would be fun to synergize with Valflame's base effect for ploys too. Missed the enemy you want to hit with ploys at the start of the turn? No worries, just attack them or another enemy and they'd be hit with it afterwards. It's almost give Alvis default Seal/Smoks skills in addition to ploys. though I maintain in light of Seal and Smoke skills the debuff effect needs to be stronger.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Ploys have the issue of being pretty positioning dependent so this could make them like a variation on smokes that also work at the start of a turn and give the player some additional control over inflicting debuffs. Heck, it'd also make the threatens excellent, basically turning them into smokes (that also give stat boosts for the tier 4 versions). Arvis and Saias would love that.

Edited September 29, 2020 by bottlegnomes

[Xenomata]

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think the main reason why Effie has a chance to get a player-phase-focused weapon despite most of the refines for armored units being enemy-phase or dual-phase is the fact that she has Death Blow as a default skill. Mind, I think a dual-phase weapon is more likely, but a pure player-phase weapon is not out of the question, especially because a Brave weapon would work well with her default Death Blow and Wary Fighter.

I... actually thought she had Atk +3, not Death Blow. Oops.

I'm still not sure if she'll get a pure PP Brave weapon, but dual-phase is certainly more expected if they're willing to begin doing that. A conditional Brave weapon feels likely too, since Effie still has the freedom of having a Silver Lance starting weapon to account for, and they've been very generous to units who began with such in the past (not naming any skirtchasers I mean names)

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I'm still not sure if she'll get a pure PP Brave weapon, but dual-phase is certainly more expected if they're willing to begin doing that.

With AOTB!Hector getting the stuff he has currently, maybe it is not too much to give Effie a Meister Weapon with dual phase follow up, Null Follow-Up, and extra mobility.

Make armors great again!

[Icelerate]

When are the new batch of refines coming out? 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Icelerate

[SockPuppet]

24 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

When are the new batch of refines coming out? 

Update should be the 7th!

[Icelerate]

1 minute ago, SockPuppet said:

Update should be the 7th!

I am excited for the Sigurd refine. 

[Tybrosion]

3 minutes ago, SockPuppet said:

Update should be the 7th!

It's on the evening of the 6th for North America. If you're pretty much anywhere else, then yeah it should be on the 7th.

[DefyingFates]

On 9/27/2020 at 8:28 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Valflame and Wargod's Tome have identical effects right now. There's no reason to expect their refines to be different. They might be, but it will be a surprise if they are.

OG!Ephraim and Eirika's weapons had identical effects but completely different refines suited to their individual stats/ playstyles. I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened here (doubly so considering Arvis also has Recovery Ring and Saias doesn't).

[Fabulously Olivier]

46 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

OG!Ephraim and Eirika's weapons had identical effects but completely different refines suited to their individual stats/ playstyles. I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened here (doubly so considering Arvis also has Recovery Ring and Saias doesn't).

Eirika and Ephraim are completely different units. The only thing separating Arvis and Saias is tome color, a prf B skill, and a few points of stat distribution. They're basically the same unit.

[Diovani Bressan]

Guess what? Refinements are now available!

[Flying Shogi]

Looks like I'm keeping Brave Lance on Effie.

[Diovani Bressan]

1 minute ago, Flying Shogi said:

Looks like I'm keeping Brave Lance on Effie.

Yeah... Her weapon and refinement are... meh, in my opinion.

[bottlegnomes]

Well this is a pretty disappointing batch.

Sigurd's looks the best, though DC on him is still worthless unless he wants to die to mages or you can speed stack him to an absurd extent. If I'm following it correctly, does this mean he gets +10 atk/def when he's over 50% health? Or is it a translation error?

Arvis and Saias are like the most boring possible refines, but at least they're decent. They're better at their jobs and they get basically a free +10 attack, and hey, no res check anymore so they can run full offensive skills. It's what it is, but I was hoping for something that'd make me really keen on investing in them since I have 5 Arvis's lying around. I kinda wish they debuffed different stats so you could run them on a team.

Effie's is just ugh. It's just so...there. And that's it.

Rhajat's galeforceless Kempf now with a better base effect. A watersweep speed build on her might be kind of fun.

Effie seems like she got the worst one since it means the better half of her weapon is useless for a decent chunk of EP. The rest are decent, but just not all that interesting.

Edited October 7, 2020 by bottlegnomes

[XRay]

I think they dropped the ball on everyone. Even for Refines that are not horrible, they are not exactly good either.

Unless I am reading it wrong, Valflame and Wargod's Tome is a MASSIVE downgrade compared to its original Ploy effect. Three columns AND rows centered on unit is WORSE THAN THREATEN SKILLS. If they meant three columns OR rows, then I think it is pretty dang good.

Effie's Refine is okay if they just removed the stupid first round rule. It is not horrible, but it does not look decent either. Effie is basically forced to fight once per phase.

Divine Tyrfing is missing forced Desperation on enemy. It is decent, but not great.

Rhajat is nice for fun builds, but I do not think it is something practical.

 

[LoneStar]

The wording for Wargod Tome and Valflame makes it sound like the range is a box like Mila's Nurturing Breath, but I'm seeing on Twitter that it is basically everything in those columns and rows. How should it be reworded? Should the description drop the centered on unit part and just say: "At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Res -5 on foes within 3 columns, and 3 rows of unit through their next actions."

[Othin]

When it's fully active, Effie is getting +11 Atk and +5 Def/Res (or more, if the bonus nullification is relevant), which is a lot of stats but it just doesn't seem like enough. Seems like it wants her to go for some sort of dual phase approach, but isn't giving it enough support.

Divine Tyrfing looks sweet. Half or more health means +10 Atk/Def and guaranteed follow up on either phase? Looks fantastic. Doesn't seem to pair particularly well with Sigurd's B skill, but it's more reason to merge Seliph and give him DC. I have 300k feathers saved up from waiting to see what his and Effie's refines would do, and while I don't think I'll be merging Effie, I'll probably merge Seliph tomorrow.

Rhajat's weapon looks fun, but I haven't been using her and I don't think this will change that. So I think I'll pass on getting the refinement for now.

Alvis and Saias are going a pretty predictable route, but I can't tell if I'm understanding it right. By "3 columns and 3 rows", does it mean either, or both? I'm pretty sure that phrasing normally implies requiring both to be true, it's the same as Duo Alfonse's tiny range, but that does not sound right. Checking the Gamepress Discord, people are reporting that it's actually "within 3 columns or within 3 rows", which is a way bigger range, and I think someone here predicted that.

[XRay]

9 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

The wording for Wargod Tome and Valflame makes it sound like the range is a box like Mila's Nurturing Breath, but I'm seeing on Twitter that it is basically everything in those columns and rows. How should it be reworded? Should the description drop the centered on unit part and just say: "At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Res -5 on foes within 3 columns, and 3 rows of unit through their next actions."

Instead of "and", you want "or". "And" means that the enemy has to fulfill both the column and row requirements, but "or" only needs to fulfill one of them.

So something like "... within 3 columns or 3 rows centered on unit".

I hope they meant "or" and not "and", cause "and"'s range is pretty tiny and crap, effectively worse than regular Threaten skills.

8 minutes ago, Othin said:

Alvis and Saias are going a pretty predictable route, but I can't tell if I'm understanding it right. By "3 columns and 3 rows", does it mean either, or both? I'm pretty sure that phrasing normally implies requiring both to be true, it's the same as Duo Alfonse's tiny range, but that does not sound right. Checking the Gamepress Discord, people are reporting that it's actually "within 3 columns or within 3 rows", which is a way bigger range, and I think someone here predicted that.

I really hope it is within 3 columns or rows, because that tiny 3 by 3 box is not cutting it, and you might as well just give them regular Blade tomes instead of their reverse Blade tomes.

Edited October 7, 2020 by XRay