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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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Only refine I'm looking forward to is seeing what they give Marisa though I'm not sure if she will be next or if they will do someone like FH!Takumi first. I really would like to see them give her Shamshir with some kind of unique effect on it.

My personal guess/wish is Hector, V!Hector, Sumia, Marisa and I don't really care who the last one is but I guess Soleil or Sothe.

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And there you have it, a new month of refines and an officially "confirmed" new trend: 5 refines a month, with the 5th going to a Seasonal unit with an existing Prf weapon.

Marisa: Shamshir
Sumia: Flower Lance
Male Morgan: Grima's Truth
Quan: Gae Bolg (yay I +10ed him!)
Berserk Armads: Valentine Hector (and by extension regular Hector)

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Still waiting for them to do something about 4* healers...

Oh well, I'm actually really happy about Quan getting one.  He deserves a good one, especially since he wasn't allowed to get Earthly Gáe Bolg for no reason.

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I'm excited to see Marisa getting a prf and refine since she is one of my favorite characters and I fully merged her a long time ago but haven't really used her for anything other than armor smashing in Arena Assault. Hopefully they give Shamshir something unique and interesting.

I like Sumia and it's nice she is getting a prf weapon but I doubt anything they give her will make me want to use her over Cordelia, Catria or Duo Palla.

Berserk Armads was already powerful and I wonder what they will do to make it even stronger.

Edited by NSSKG151

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I don't see Soleil, and so therefore I don't care.

OK, while that is a slight hyperbole I really am starting to get frustrated.

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Marisa

I'm hoping they've learned their lesson that the Slaying effect is more desirable than Wo Dao's effect, considering they replaced Ayra's Blade's Flashing Blade with the Slaying effect, but I'm not going to count on it.

Marisa's offensive stat spread sucks. It's worse than both Navarre's and Athena's, and both were released earlier than her. Hauteclere would be nice, but unoriginal, and it would also make her way too similar to Karel, who has an almost identical stat spread.

I'm expecting either Slaying Edge or Wo Dao as the base effect and then getting some other Swordmaster-like skill, like Atk/Spd Solo or Null Follow-Up. A second stack of Infantry Pulse would be interesting, though.

 

Cuan

Gae Bolg is awful. It gets Sturdy Blow [5] and Sturdy Stance [5] against grounded opponents. Earthly Gae Bolg is flat out better, having Defense +3 and Lull Atk/Def [5], but still not particularly great by present-day standards.

The weapon canonically has +10 Str, Skill, and Def in Genealogy. Thorhammer and Holsety, which also have Skill boosts in Genealogy have gotten boosts to Special activation in Heroes, so it would make sense to do something similar for Gae Bolg. Cuan also has Adept as his personal skill in Genealogy.

I'd replace the base effect with Slaying + Atk/Def Unity. The refine effect should give a guaranteed follow-up with some condition (perhaps if opponent is grounded).

 

Morgan

Grima's Truth is currently a worse version of Peshkatz and Hlidskjalf and a better version of Dark Breath+. It's similar to Gloom Breath as an upgrade of Dark Breath+, though the two weapons go in different directions, with Gloom Breath doubling down on debuffs instead of granting buffs.

As Gloom Breath is also a weapon on a 4-star-summonable unit, it could probably be an example of what could be done with the weapon.

Perhaps something like

"At start of turn, if unit is within 2 spaces of a foe, grants Atk/Spd+5 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn and inflicts Atk/Spd-5 on foes within 2 spaces through their next actions.

After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd-5 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions, and grants Atk/Spd+5 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn."

as its base effect. They can be unoriginal and use the same refine effect as Saizo's Star and Gloom Breath if they want. I would say they could make the refine effect Dominance instead to be slightly less unoriginal, but I think that might be too strong for a 4-star-summonable unit.

 

Sumia

Her default weapon is Reprisal Lance, which isn't great for her movement type and stat spread, but they doubled down on it by giving her Close Def as a default skill. So she's basically trying to be Tana for some reason.

If they really want to make her an enemy-phase unit for whatever reason, she really wants something like Kestrel Stance 3 as her weapon's base effect and Evasion or full-on Spurn as its refine effect.

If they want to make her not be weird, then they have all sorts of things they could do as long as they don't insist on keeping her default weapon's effect as the weapon's base. I don't really feel like speculating since she's just yet another 70-offenses lance flier (yes, I know she doesn't actually have exactly 70 offenses) that are a dime a dozen, so they have plenty of leeway to get creative.

 

Valentine Hector

Slaying + Wrath. The most busted weapon in the game until they started feeding weapons through the Yu-Gi-Oh! card printer.

Hector ran two different builds:

  1. Player phase Bonfire + Wrath, giving him a fully charged Bonfire at the start of every turn after dropping to 75% HP.
  2. Enemy phase Moonbow + Vantage, giving him a fully charged Moonbow at the start of every turn after dropping to 75% HP.

I suggest Vantage as a refine, giving him the option to run Bonfire + Wrath while also getting the benefits of Vantage, allowing him to function on either phase with the same build (but still just once per turn).

Also, just for kicks, add this to the base effect:

"At start of turn, if unit's HP > 75%, deals damage to unit = 25% of unit's max HP, rounded up."

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33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

Sumia

Her default weapon is Reprisal Lance, which isn't great for her movement type and stat spread, but they doubled down on it by giving her Close Def as a default skill. So she's basically trying to be Tana for some reason.

If they really want to make her an enemy-phase unit for whatever reason, she really wants something like Kestrel Stance 3 as her weapon's base effect and Evasion or full-on Spurn as its refine effect.

If they want to make her not be weird, then they have all sorts of things they could do as long as they don't insist on keeping her default weapon's effect as the weapon's base. I don't really feel like speculating since she's just yet another 70-offenses lance flier (yes, I know she doesn't actually have exactly 70 offenses) that are a dime a dozen, so they have plenty of leeway to get creative.

 

 

Bit late now, but they really should have just made Sumia a mage flier. Not like there's a tonne of them in the series and Awakening is like the only game where it's a natural promotion for anyone not named Constance. Alternatively given Sumia saved Chrom at that one point, there's reason to make her a support unit. Actually it'd be really weird, but if they want to double down on her enemy phase build then they could give her savior in reference to that Chrom saving moment. It probably wouldn't be functionally all that useful, but Savior on a flying unit would be somewhat novel.

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3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Berserk Armads: Valentine Hector (and by extension regular Hector)

This is the second time they didn't mention the other unit who can evolve their weapon to a variant? The first was with Julia not being listed for Divine Naga in the version 3.1.0 update, but both Naga and Divine Naga were part of that update, so I think they wanted to separate the two as Julia's tome and Deirdre's tome are becoming available for refinement. Still, they left out that detail of Julia can evolve Naga to Divine Naga that players probably know or can check easily.

For Blazing Durandal and Divine Tyrfing, however, Eliwood and Seliph were listed and shown on the weapon update image alongside CYL Roy and Sigurd, respectively. Version 3.9.0 for CYL1 and version 4.10.0 for Divine Tyrfing.

It could be argued that the weapon update image would be crowded, except it would be six units the same as with 4.10.0 which had Arvis, Effie, Rhajat, Saias, Seliph, and Sigurd together. Also, the accompanying new power banner didn't even have Seliph as a focus unit as it was only Effie, Rhajat, and Sigurd. With the upcoming update, it would be LA Hector, M!Morgan, Quan, and Sumia. A fifth focus isn't common outside of legendary/mythic banners or special banners like the double seasonal or whatever they're called banners which are more than five focus units.

My guesses are that they forgot about regular Hector or he was supposed to be part of the upcoming update, but for whatever reason swapped out last minute with someone else. That someone I would say might be M!Morgan since they would not have to make a new weapon model like with Marisa or Sumia where granted Sumia in Heroes is not depicted with Awakening's Luna and her art's lance looks like a Silver Lance. Another thing is that M!Morgan can have simple unique refinement effects they can come up with on the spot to the point of not even bothering to change the base effect of Grima's Truth.

For M!Morgan, the simplest things they can give Grima's Truth for its unique refinement and which they repeated three times already for tomes -- four if you include a non-tome weapon, Matthew's Spy Dagger -- is Blizzard/Broadleaf Fan or if they want to be more adventurous, the Penalty Doubler effect found on F!Corrin's unique refined Gloom Breath, CYL Micaiah's Light of Dawn, and unique refined Saizo's Star. Now, if they want to be adventurous, Bonus Doubler except, y'know, Dulls and Lulls exist with Lulls being fairly common on newer units while Blizzard/Broadleaf Fan and Penalty Doubler aren't common. On the brightside, Bonus Doubler 6 would be possible on him.

Moving on from the mystery that is regular Hector and regular Armads, Quan is one of several gen 2+ units whose prf weapon does not have a flat stat boost if it already didn't have a Brave, Killer, or Wo Dao effect I guess, but prf Wo Dao weapons if I recall are uncommon. The most recent unit to have this trait is Solon. Shiro and Siegbert were the first, there's also Garon and flying Olivia, and arguably Deirdre who along with Tailtiu were in this weird transitional spot of gen 1 to gen 2. Making it worse is when Altena was introduced, her Earthly Gae Bolg was essentially a stronger regular Gae Bolg that in addition to having a stat boost, Def+3, it neutralized bonuses on armor, cavalry, and infantry foes. It just inflicted in-combat debuffs instead of granting in-combat buffs. They could have forgot about regular Gae Bolg, gave Quan the ability to evolve it to Earthly Gae Bolg, and even have Altena be part of this weapon update because why not.

Sumia's the first unit with a Reprisal weapon to be part of a weapon update. This also reminds me that we don't have a Reprisal Sword yet. Flower Lance being a prf Reprisal Lance at base is fine with my guess of it being extended to dual phase with if foe's HP = 100% that has been a thing for a lot of enemy phase prf weapons starting with Balmung if I recall correctly. Or not because reasons. Anyway, if it has that condition, then it would be like Ronan's Indignant Bow except without the Atk-6 on foe and neutralizing attack penalties on Ronan and attack bonuses on his for parts.

I do hope that if they do the infantry (Chrom) or flier allies thing that it is at least extended to within 3 spaces or does something else other than give stats only to Sumia which they stopped doing around with F!Morgan and which made the older weapons like Camilla's Axe or Vidofnir look even more restrictive let alone the ones that only worked with specific unit types like Regal Blade's unique refinement only working with infantry mages. Otherwise, she's not like Marianne who is good with animals in general if I recall correctly and she's more of good with pegasi and the one memorable thing is her saving Chrom, so the infantry part instead of cavalry. If not a flier or infantry ally effect, perhaps support partner since Awakening introduced the pair-up mechanic and also the implied thing with Chrom.

She's clumsy and flower readings are her thing, but I have no idea how they would be able to incorporate that except for the Arthur's bad luck thing translated as he grows stronger in spite of, but does not ignore penalities. Maybe they could do something stupid like grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+X = 50% Dragonflowers given to unit. Maybe 100% because why the hell not. The last thing would be to reference her being depicted with Awakening's Luna and have the unique refinement reduce Def/Res in some way with Lunar Brace being a powerful effect albeit held back by its special cooldown penalty and legendary Eirika not having a Killer effect on Storm Sieglinde or being able have charged specials like Ares or an infantry unit who has access to Special Spiral, Wrath, and Time's Pulse on top of a Killer weapon.

Edited by Kaden

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Nothing too surprising here, although Morgan is earlier than expected. The lack of original Hector is also odd, wonder how long it'll take him.

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I hope they rework Morgan's Grima Truth. Debuff have weapons been kind of bad lately due to recent unit either negating or even reversing debuffs.

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11 hours ago, Kaden said:

She's clumsy and flower readings are her thing, but I have no idea how they would be able to incorporate that except for the Arthur's bad luck thing translated as he grows stronger in spite of, but does not ignore penalities.

An Odd Wave kind of bonus ("loves me, loves me not...")

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16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gae Bolg is awful. It gets Sturdy Blow [5] and Sturdy Stance [5] against grounded opponents. Earthly Gae Bolg is flat out better, having Defense +3 and Lull Atk/Def [5], but still not particularly great by present-day standards.

The weapon canonically has +10 Str, Skill, and Def in Genealogy. Thorhammer and Holsety, which also have Skill boosts in Genealogy have gotten boosts to Special activation in Heroes, so it would make sense to do something similar for Gae Bolg. Cuan also has Adept as his personal skill in Genealogy.

I'd replace the base effect with Slaying + Atk/Def Unity. The refine effect should give a guaranteed follow-up with some condition (perhaps if opponent is grounded).

Honestly I'd just drop the condition of no fliers in addition to the above upgrades. It's a "fun" reference to how Quan was murdered in cold blood by Travant's army, but the lance itself was never actually "ineffective" against fliers.
Hell, if we ever get to refining Earthly Gae Bolg I'll say the same thing, it just doesn't make sense to have a unit be good against everything except fliers. It's like a bow from the reverse world or something...

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1 minute ago, Xenomata said:

Honestly I'd just drop the condition of no fliers in addition to the above upgrades. It's a "fun" reference to how Quan was murdered in cold blood by Travant's army, but the lance itself was never actually "ineffective" against fliers.
Hell, if we ever get to refining Earthly Gae Bolg I'll say the same thing, it just doesn't make sense to have a unit be good against everything except fliers. It's like a bow from the reverse world or something...

Unusual conditions are good for helping the game stay able to support a variety of effects. They just have to be balanced around it.

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2 minutes ago, Othin said:

Unusual conditions are good for helping the game stay able to support a variety of effects. They just have to be balanced around it.

I wish I could agree, but we're also playing a game where the conditions for any number of effects winds up being simplified to one slightly tricky to trigger condition (no bonuses on foe, foe's HP being above or below 100% HP, if unit is within X spaces of an ally, etc.) and also one of the two following: if unit initiates combat, or if foe initiates combat.
Heck, Divine Tyrfing got a great special refine that guarantees a follow-up on low-Spd units, and all it asks for is for the enemy to be above 50% HP. It's a separate check from the base effect to be fair, but that's still a refine that has a simple trigger check for great effects.

Again, I wish I could agree. But Quan's trigger condition is dated as hell when every other weapon has one of those two trigger conditions above.

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11 hours ago, Kori said:

An Odd Wave kind of bonus ("loves me, loves me not...")

That works and it reminds me of Constance who I think I remember a comment about how her Circadian Beat could be incorporated. Stats only might have to be at least +5 since +4 field buffs aren't that difficult to get, especially as a flier who has access to Hone and Fortify Fliers let alone her default Atk/Def Link, and field buff neutralization isn't uncommon. Something weird they could do is have her heal, herself or her allies, in some way to reference Awakening Pegasus Knights learning Relief which restores 20% of the user's HP each turn if they are not within a 3 tile radius of an ally. They could maybe even give her a movement buff in some way where Dark Fliers learn Rally Movement which is what Annette's Crusher has or they could go crazy and give her Odd or Even Tempest that either gives her or adjacent allies +1 movement or Odd/Even Orders.

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21 hours ago, Nym said:

I hope they rework Morgan's Grima Truth. Debuff have weapons been kind of bad lately due to recent unit either negating or even reversing debuffs.

See, I don't agree with this line of thinking. It's okay for certain units to be bad against units with specific skills. Everything should have counters, and they should not be able to counter their own counters. Counters don't make overpowered things balanced, but they do make them beatable and engaging.

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1 hour ago, Kaden said:

That works and it reminds me of Constance who I think I remember a comment about how her Circadian Beat could be incorporated. Stats only might have to be at least +5 since +4 field buffs aren't that difficult to get, especially as a flier who has access to Hone and Fortify Fliers let alone her default Atk/Def Link, and field buff neutralization isn't uncommon. Something weird they could do is have her heal, herself or her allies, in some way to reference Awakening Pegasus Knights learning Relief which restores 20% of the user's HP each turn if they are not within a 3 tile radius of an ally. They could maybe even give her a movement buff in some way where Dark Fliers learn Rally Movement which is what Annette's Crusher has or they could go crazy and give her Odd or Even Tempest that either gives her or adjacent allies +1 movement or Odd/Even Orders.

SInce we've gotten Annette I've really been questioning why they haven't just given us rally movement yet. Giving up one units action to get another unit+1 move isn't the most the broken thing in the world. Giving us pure rally movement would make Annette a bit less special, but she'd still be able to do it better than anyone else by virtue of being able to stack it with another rally. Course that's kind of off topic since this is about refines and not new units who could come with rally move.

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58 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

See, I don't agree with this line of thinking. It's okay for certain units to be bad against units with specific skills. Everything should have counters, and they should not be able to counter their own counters. Counters don't make overpowered things balanced, but they do make them beatable and engaging.

Yeah, exactly. Same goes for Quan.

It's healthy for the game, no matter what other units they make that go against that.

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9 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

See, I don't agree with this line of thinking. It's okay for certain units to be bad against units with specific skills. Everything should have counters, and they should not be able to counter their own counters. Counters don't make overpowered things balanced, but they do make them beatable and engaging.

I doubt they would not make it a debuff weapon, but I hope the base effect better. Sothe's weapon is just better in every single way.

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10 minutes ago, Nym said:

I doubt they would not make it a debuff weapon, but I hope the base effect better. Sothe's weapon is just better in every single way.

Which is funny, because Sothe's weapon is also in need of a refinement. Neither are especially great.

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4 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Which is funny, because Sothe's weapon is also in need of a refinement. Neither are especially great.

I'm aware. If you compare the two to Brave Veronica's staff, they both look very bad compare to it and that was before the refine.

But Morgan's weapon is worse than Sothe's.

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5 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Which is funny, because Sothe's weapon is also in need of a refinement. Neither are especially great.

I mean, Peshkatz has been a worse Hlidskjalf for as long as Hlidskjalf has existed.

However, the reason Peshkatz is a bad weapon is not because of its effect, but because Sothe simply cannot keep himself alive to actually use the weapon. A weapon that applies status effects, no matter how strong, is worthless if the unit cannot safely apply them, and Sothe flat out doesn't have the stat spread to do so (39/22/21 defenses are awful, and 33 Spd was underwhelming even at his release).

 

I think they need to add a survivability skill for dagger units. Similar to how bows now have Deadeye for a more offensive role, daggers should get something for a support role. Maybe something like

Shade 1/2/3 (Passive B):

If unit initiates combat, reduces damage from foe's first attack by 30/40/50%, and if unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd+1, neutralizes effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks during combat and reduces the percentage of foe's "reduce damage by X%" skills by 50%.

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35 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I mean, Peshkatz has been a worse Hlidskjalf for as long as Hlidskjalf has existed.

However, the reason Peshkatz is a bad weapon is not because of its effect, but because Sothe simply cannot keep himself alive to actually use the weapon. A weapon that applies status effects, no matter how strong, is worthless if the unit cannot safely apply them, and Sothe flat out doesn't have the stat spread to do so (39/22/21 defenses are awful, and 33 Spd was underwhelming even at his release).

 

I think they need to add a survivability skill for dagger units. Similar to how bows now have Deadeye for a more offensive role, daggers should get something for a support role. Maybe something like

Shade 1/2/3 (Passive B):

If unit initiates combat, reduces damage from foe's first attack by 30/40/50%, and if unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd+1, neutralizes effects that guarantee foe's follow-up attacks during combat and reduces the percentage of foe's "reduce damage by X%" skills by 50%.

Shade: Drop the Speed check and drop the reduce damage by X% effect with it but keep the nullifieing guarantees foes follow up attack (with no spd check). Not all Dagger units are immensely fast.

But then again doesnt matter, FEH went bonkers anyway on every direction you might as well just give it the full effect without any SPD check.

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8 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Not all Dagger units are immensely fast.

That's the entire point of the Spd check. Dagger units that aren't immensely fast are already fairly bulky and should be encouraged to run a different skill.

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