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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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5 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Okay I'm just as pleased as everyone else that we're getting DC weapon refines, but if I'm honest, this kinda feels like ripping the bandaid off. With sandpaper.
I mean, this update is literally all DC weapons. And of course all but one of them have two wielders, so we're getting 9 refined units total (as well as the first Legendary refines... technically). Three of the units are Grail units, throw that onto the pile. The New Power banner is gonna suck for anyone hoping to summon for one unit not named Hardin...

In the past they've mostly trickled out refines for a certain type of weapon (I guess there was that time with all the Falchions), but doing it this way... they better know what they're doing. I guess this also means that Hector's Armads now doesn't have any good reason not to be refined, about the only thing holding it back was Hector having DC by default...

The New Power banner will have four units. Ryoma, Ike, and Zelgius are color sharing, but that's not a bad thing.

All of them are in the revival pool anyway, so who cares. If you only want one of them, you can get a way better rate there.

Edited by Othin

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28 minutes ago, Othin said:

The New Power banner will have four units. Ryoma, Ike, and Zelgius are color sharing, but that's not a bad thing.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean: if you want Hardin then good on you, he'll be the easiest to snipe. But the other three all have to share the same focus rate, and god forbid you summon the wrong flavor of refinable DC weapon.

...then again, end of the day LegIke and LegRyoma will probably be the better units anyway, and Zelgius... well, BK might be the better recommend by virtue of being a Grail unit...

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55 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Yeah that's exactly what I mean: if you want Hardin then good on you, he'll be the easiest to snipe. But the other three all have to share the same focus rate, and god forbid you summon the wrong flavor of refinable DC weapon.

...then again, end of the day LegIke and LegRyoma will probably be the better units anyway, and Zelgius... well, BK might be the better recommend by virtue of being a Grail unit...

They're not sharing "the same" focus rate any more than any two units that aren't color-sharing. If you're trying to summon Zelgius on a 4-character banner, your likelihood of pulling him from a red orb is virtually unchanged no matter how many of those units are red. Having three of the units being red means your total odds of pulling some focus unit in red are about three times as high, which is good unless you have absolutely zero interest in the others or are really worried about your pity rate. And again, if you care that much about a tiny change to your odds of getting the unit you want most, you shouldn't be trying to summon them from a 4-character New Power banner no matter how the colors are distributed, because that's a much bigger impact.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Wait, do people actually spend orbs on New Power banners? Why?

Impatient and/or bad at math, I guess? Same reason as a lot of ways people spend orbs.

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2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Wait, do people actually spend orbs on New Power banners? Why?

I mean, Valentine's Hector was on the previous one and had green all to himself there (instead of having to share it with Lilina on his usual yearly re-run).

I know how you feel about seasonals, but their presence certainly makes any given New Power banner more desirable (especially if they aren't color sharing like Hector) due to their scarcity.

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8 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

I mean, Valentine's Hector was on the previous one and had green all to himself there (instead of having to share it with Lilina on his usual yearly re-run).

I know how you feel about seasonals, but their presence certainly makes any given New Power banner more desirable (especially if they aren't color sharing like Hector) due to their scarcity.

No, I get it. Scarcity adds value. 

 

And as much as I hate seasonals, them getting refines does not bother me so long as I still get my 4 monthly NH weapon refines.

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There's the scarcity, and also the fact that most old seasonals are only expected to get rerun on 4-character banners, not 3-character ones, so appearing on a 4-character New Power banner isn't a step down in frequency like it is for old main pool units.

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 I usually dont summon on New Power banners, but once Laevatein gets a refinement I will be summoning for her in her New Power banner. I need 3 more copies. I just hope she doesnt share color, since I can easily see Laevatein getting refinement alongside Laegjarn.

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34 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

 I usually dont summon on New Power banners, but once Laevatein gets a refinement I will be summoning for her in her New Power banner. I need 3 more copies. I just hope she doesnt share color, since I can easily see Laevatein getting refinement alongside Laegjarn.

I am hoping Laevatein can add total bonuses and penalties to her Atk, so the only way to completely nullify her Atk buffs would be Dull Close and no one on the team inflicts Panic on her.

Edited by XRay

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On 5/1/2021 at 10:27 AM, Xenomata said:

Yeah that's exactly what I mean: if you want Hardin then good on you, he'll be the easiest to snipe. But the other three all have to share the same focus rate, and god forbid you summon the wrong flavor of refinable DC weapon.

As mentioned by @Othin, sharing colors makes only a small difference in your summon rate.

For example, on the Enduring Legacy banner (Azel, Mahnya, Ferry, Lex), your chance of pulling an individual red unit at the base summon rate is 1 in 35.3. If the banner were color-balanced instead of having 2 red units, the chance would instead have been 1 in 34.3.

If you account for the pity rate, your chances change to about 1 in 34 for the actual banner compared to about 1 in 31 if it were color-balanced.

In contrast, at base summon rate, if it were a 3-character banner, it instead would shoot up to 1 in 26.0 even before accounting for the pity rate.

 

Pulling for a single character from a 4-character 3% banner is always going to be worse than pulling for a single character from a 3-character 3% banner regardless of the amount of color sharing. The difference in the number of characters sharing the banner matters more than the difference in the number of characters sharing a single color.

If you're aiming for any individual character from this banner, you're far, far better off pulling from their revival banners, which are 3-character 4% banners. On the other hand, if you're just looking for 5-star characters in general and don't care who you get, this banner is among the best because the 5-star summon rate when sniping red is somewhere around 11-12%. (Pretty much the only way to beat this banner in general 5-star rate when sniping is to have all characters share the same color, like the Falchion New Power banner and the Wyvern Riders Voting Gauntlet banner, which had something like a 16-17% 5-star rate.)

Edited by Ice Dragon

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@Othin @Ice Dragon Yeah okay, I never said the New Power banner was ideal for summoning any of the 4 units though. I don't know why that seems to be the conclusion people came to. Hell, I'd sooner wait for Weekly Revival units to appear as 4* Special Summons than actively summon for them.

My comment only applies to the one summoning session that matters on these kinds of banners (and sorry for not making it clear in the first place): the first one, where you have a free summon. You're obviously going to pick an orb color that matches the focus units of the banner, and who would say no to a free focus unit? But you can't hope for any one of the three DC sword bros in that freebie summon, you can only hope you get a freebie 5* focus at all. Meanwhile Hardin gets to be the single focus unit of blue, so if you want him, then good for you just pick the free Blue unit and pray you get him for free.
There is no math in the world that could possibly help you to predict the one orb that will be the 5* anyway. I fully expect to summon 3* Eirika or 3* Thea myself, if I even get a single Red or Blue orb.

I don't recommend full summoning off New Power banners, or really any non-Weekly Revival banner that has Weekly Revival units on them. But you still get a free summon, and you can still hope to be lucky with it. And again, god forbid you get the refinable DC sword bro you didn't want. I fully expect someone will make a comment about it in the Official Pull Topic.

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11 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

My comment only applies to the one summoning session that matters on these kinds of banners (and sorry for not making it clear in the first place): the first one, where you have a free summon. You're obviously going to pick an orb color that matches the focus units of the banner, and who would say no to a free focus unit? But you can't hope for any one of the three DC sword bros in that freebie summon, you can only hope you get a freebie 5* focus at all. Meanwhile Hardin gets to be the single focus unit of blue, so if you want him, then good for you just pick the free Blue unit and pray you get him for free.

A 3% chance to pull a specific result is still 3% regardless of what the other 97% contains.

You can pray to get Ike for free just as much as you can pray to get Hardin for free. The only difference is that if you didn't get Ike, you have a better chance of getting a different 5-star.

 

11 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

There is no math in the world that could possibly help you to predict the one orb that will be the 5* anyway.

That is entirely false. Probability and statistics is literally the mathematics of making predictions.

What I assume you meant to say is that there is no math in the world that will tell you with any amount of certainty exactly what you will get, but that is true whether you're pulling for Ike or for Hardin.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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14 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

@Othin @Ice Dragon Yeah okay, I never said the New Power banner was ideal for summoning any of the 4 units though. I don't know why that seems to be the conclusion people came to. Hell, I'd sooner wait for Weekly Revival units to appear as 4* Special Summons than actively summon for them.

My comment only applies to the one summoning session that matters on these kinds of banners (and sorry for not making it clear in the first place): the first one, where you have a free summon. You're obviously going to pick an orb color that matches the focus units of the banner, and who would say no to a free focus unit? But you can't hope for any one of the three DC sword bros in that freebie summon, you can only hope you get a freebie 5* focus at all. Meanwhile Hardin gets to be the single focus unit of blue, so if you want him, then good for you just pick the free Blue unit and pray you get him for free.

The fact that it's the free summon doesn't change anything. If you want a red focus unit, you use your free summon to pick a red orb. Like Ice Dragon said, the odds of that red orb having the focus unit you want are almost exactly the same whether or not there are any other red focus units.

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Why do I have to keep saying this, god forbid you summon the DC sword bro you didn't want. Congratulations you got a Red Focus unit for free, here's the catch: it's Zelgius not Ike. Whatever, it's a freebie 5* focus, I'm not going to give the game 1 star, leave a bad review on google play, and complain to customer support just because I wanted Ike and not Zelgius.

I'm not even trying to make a point about anything, I never was, it was a goddamn throwaway line I didn't think anyone would respond to, or for that matter notice. If we were all in a room talking to each other I would be muttering under my breath while saying it. Why do I feel like an idiot because I have some people explaining the math and statistics of focus units to me (all subjects I get a headache over, by the way), other people seeming to assuming I support summoning from New Power banners, over a line I added because I thought it'd be mildly funny.

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6 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Why do I have to keep saying this, god forbid you summon the DC sword bro you didn't want. Congratulations you got a Red Focus unit for free, here's the catch: it's Zelgius not Ike.

Unless you're allergic to Zelgius, there's literally no downside to getting Zelgius instead of, say, Stahl when aiming for Ike. Not-Ike is not Ike regardless of which not-Ike it is.

Unlike many other games, Heroes doesn't build up expectation by showing you the 5-star rarity before crushing your dreams by revealing that you didn't get the 5-star you were looking for (assuming you don't suck at recognizing silhouettes).

 

23 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not even trying to make a point about anything, I never was, it was a goddamn throwaway line I didn't think anyone would respond to, or for that matter notice. If we were all in a room talking to each other I would be muttering under my breath while saying it. Why do I feel like an idiot because I have some people explaining the math and statistics of focus units to me (all subjects I get a headache over, by the way), other people seeming to assuming I support summoning from New Power banners, over a line I added because I thought it'd be mildly funny.

Because a forum post is significantly easier to notice than muttering under your breath in a noisy room.

Also because being wrong on the internet is one of the best ways to get a response.

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23 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Why do I have to keep saying this, god forbid you summon the DC sword bro you didn't want. Congratulations you got a Red Focus unit for free, here's the catch: it's Zelgius not Ike. Whatever, it's a freebie 5* focus, I'm not going to give the game 1 star, leave a bad review on google play, and complain to customer support just because I wanted Ike and not Zelgius.

I don't understand how this relates to what either of us are saying.

24 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I'm not even trying to make a point about anything, I never was, it was a goddamn throwaway line I didn't think anyone would respond to, or for that matter notice. If we were all in a room talking to each other I would be muttering under my breath while saying it. Why do I feel like an idiot because I have some people explaining the math and statistics of focus units to me (all subjects I get a headache over, by the way), other people seeming to assuming I support summoning from New Power banners, over a line I added because I thought it'd be mildly funny.

I tend to feel compelled to explain things when I see something that looks like a misunderstanding and I tend to be really wary when I see concerns about color-sharing because of the common misconception that it reduces the individual unit rate by much more than the tiny amount it actually does. So I wanted to make sure that was clear, which I still can't tell whether or not it is.

I think I'm the one who inferred you wanted to summon from New Power banners based on the concern? I did not realize it would bother you that much. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

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Hm... LegIke clearly has the better deal due to having Radiant Aether II, but at least Ike has something to work with. 2 cooldown Black Luna... methinks Zelgius wants Special Fighter. Seems like they can both also retain Spd builds, if people built them with Spd in mind.
Raijinto can go either Player Phase with a standard Windsweep build or remain EP. As above, I think LegRyoma has the better winning overall (thanks to the brand new Bushido II)
Siegfried... well, it certainly does what Xander needs done. He doesn't need his Spd anyway.
Gradivus I'm not sure has a definite "best choice." Camus is free but has middling overall stats, while Hardin is slightly harder to come across but has a bulkier statline.

Hm... while they didn't get anything new for the base effect, they did all at least get some sort of new benefit (even if it all got the same All stat +4 if simple condition is met). Raijinto I think boosted LegRyoma considerably along with Bushido II, considering he now has the benefit of two Infantry-exclusive skills despite being a flier (and also no flier weakness and permanent +7 damage).

Edited by Xenomata

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Ragnell, Alondite

  • Base effect is Distant Counter.
  • Refine effect is Slaying and all stats +4 if unit's HP is 25% or higher.

Legendary Ike now has a 3-cooldown Radiant Aether II that charges to 1 cooldown at the start of the first turn, and the extra Spd helps out with Dodge builds. You can also give up the Breath skill in his A slot for something like Kestrel Stance or Atk/Spd Solo and run either Time's Pulse or Special Spiral for consistent Radiant Aether activations. Overall pretty nice.

Vanilla Ike is basically now identical to Legendary Ike before his Remix, but with extra stats. Nothing particularly special.

Zelgius and Black Knight now have a 2-cooldown Black Luna. Zelgius how has 40 Spd at +0 with an Asset and no passive skills, and Black Knight how has 41, which is really nice. Otherwise, 2-cooldown Black Luna. Really not much else to say beyond that.

It's still not worth running Warp Powder, though.

Raijinto

  • Base effect is Distant Counter.
  • Refine effect is all stats +4 and Null Follow-Up if Blow condition or Unity condition.

The weapon is good for Legendary Ryoma, but vanilla Ryoma is forced to run either a Blade skill or Time's Pulse if he wants to guarantee a Special activation on player phase with Desperation. Alternatively, he runs a Dodge skill like Legendary Ryoma.

Null Follow-Up does allow him to run Windsweep, though, so that's neat, at least, though not as useful as the ranged Windsweepers.

Siegfried

  • Base effect is Distant Counter.
  • Refine effect is opponent's Atk/Def -5 and follow-up prevention if unit's HP is 75% or higher.

I wasn't expecting anything particularly amazing, and yeah, it's not particularly amazing. +5 Atk/Def/Res is still pretty nice, though, and follow-up prevention makes up for his low Spd defensively.

On the other hand, it does apply on both phases, so he can initiate combat relatively safely, but it's not like he can actually double on player phase, though.

Gradivus

  • Base effect is Distant Counter.
  • Refine effect is all stats +4 and Nosferatu (7 HP) if Stance condition or opponent's HP is 100%.

Sol Lance + stats is basically exactly my prediction with no extras.

Camus probably better than Sirius now for dual-phase Distant Counter builds since he has his A slot open for a tier 4 skill, like Atk/Spd Solo 4, which makes up for his lower base Atk and Spd. Still has crummy Res, though, so Perceval is probably more consistent.

Hardin is still Hardin, just even harder to kill. No complaints on this end.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Well Xander and Camus got definitly shafted. Not so much Hardin because he can play the enemy phase role as a Armorer.

Biggest Winner is Imho Ryoma, especially Legendary Ryoma with his new B skill

Edited by Hilda

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Ragnell: HP+3, Slaying. If unit's HP≥25%, grants +4 to all stats during combat.
Boring, but if we're being honest, L!Ike probably didn't need anything more than Slaying and extra stats. Vanilla Ike is left in the dust since Legendary Ike got Remixed, but really, he's just been Heavy Blade food ever since L!Ike existed.

Alondite: HP+3, Slaying. If unit's HP≥25%, grants +4 to all stats during combat.
Also boring, but BK and Zelgius also didn't need more than Slaying and extra stats. Black Lunas every battle with Alondite intact and the A slot free is as scary of a prospect as it ever was.

Raijinto: HP+3. If enemy is at full HP or unit is near an ally, grants Null Follow-Up and +4 to all stats during combat.
NFU is a very good thing to have in the weapon slot. If gives Ryoma a niche over Ike as well as freeing his B Slot, and L!Ryoma with his Remix upgrade is now much scarier to trade blows with.

Gradivus: HP+3. If foe initiates or is at full HP, grants +4 to all stats and heals 7 HP after every attack the unit makes.
This definitely feels like it was tailored to Hardin more than Camus. Healing after every attack is a very underrated skill, and Hardin with his sheer bulk will make it go far. Camus, on the other hand, is not known for his bulk and seems to be better off speedtanking.

Siegfried: HP+3. If enemy's HP≥75%, inflicts Atk/Def-5 during combat and denies them a follow-up attack.
Underestimated! It's probably worth pointing out that the follow-up denial is both phases, not just PP like Sturdy Impact, and while low he still has enough Spd to make Bold Fighter armors fuck off. Pretty good for a physical tank, as Xander can stack his Def pretty damn high with the free A slot and perhaps also tank some magic with the right setup.

Edited by Some Jerk

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Ragnel/Alondite got a nice refine. With special fighter Black knight/Zelgius can counterattack with Black Luna which is really nice and possibly quite scary in Arena where everyone has a +10 merged one. Ike didn't change much I feel.

The freebies got a nice one, didn't expect much from them anyway. 

LeRyoma was the winner of the batch. With refined Raijinto and Bushido II he has

  1. DC
  2. Iote's shield
  3. +4 to all stats 
  4. NFU
  5. +7 true damage 
  6. dodge

He also gains Rein Atk/Spd from the update, add that and he becomes a monster. You can give him any seal and A slot you want and make him a very good tank. He won't be a BrHector or BrEdie but it's nice that this old, forgotten and outdated unit caught up to modern standards and even surpassed them.

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So I just realized Hardin with maximum positioning-independent dual-phase Spd investment (+Spd, +10 merge, +10 Dragonflowers, Gradivus [unique], Life and Death 4, Life and Death 3) hits 53 Spd and 70 Atk while retaining 36/32 defenses. That's kind of terrifying.

With Atk/Spd Solo instead of Life and Death, he gets 71/54/46/42 at the cost of being a bit more awkward to use. Seems like a pretty damned solid Armored Stride build, though. He can also consistently Galeforce with either Bold Fighter or Special Fighter.

 

Zelgius, of course, gets to be a similarly terrifying 75/59/48/31 with the insane power of Black Luna with the same double Solo build.

Legendary Ryoma gets an effective 71/60/42/34 on enemy phase with nothing but his default kit (and the +Spd, +10 merge, and +10 Dragonflowers). Running Atk/Spd Solo 4 + Atk/Spd Solo 3 boosts that up to a hilarious 80/69/42/34. Basically a fast flying armor with no effective-damage weaknesses. (The extra 2 Atk/Spd from Catch or Ideal is not reliable, so they're effectively identical to double Solo in terms of numbers.)

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Bit disappointed Ragnell and Alondite got the same refine, disappointed, but not particularly surprised. But wow wee we're getting not just weapons but new skills too. That's something I've been wanting them to do since Book 2 and I'm only just now learning is a thing. A lot more potnetial for buffing old characters when we can give them skills instead of just weapons. And Legendary Ryoma means it won't be an either or choice between refines and skills. Gunnthra was also one of my favourite characters to use back in the early days so some love on her is appreciated. Course I probably still won't use her, but it's still appreciated.

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Bit disappointed Ragnell and Alondite got the same refine, disappointed, but not particularly surprised. But wow wee we're getting not just weapons but new skills too. That's something I've been wanting them to do since Book 2 and I'm only just now learning is a thing. A lot more potnetial for buffing old characters when we can give them skills instead of just weapons. And Legendary Ryoma means it won't be an either or choice between refines and skills. Gunnthra was also one of my favourite characters to use back in the early days so some love on her is appreciated. Course I probably still won't use her, but it's still appreciated.

Old Legendary Heroes are each getting an upgrade to their exclusive skill and one new skill (either an upgrade of a skill they already have or a completely brand new skill) to allow them to catch up to more recent Legendary Heroes. Ike and Fjorm got their Legendary Hero Remix upgrades in February, and Ryoma and Gunnthra got them this time. If they keep the interval the same, we should be getting the next set in the August update. I'm hoping for Grima and Lyn.

We had a speculation thread for the system back when it was first announced:

 

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