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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And that is less problematic than allowing it to reach +23 at this point in the game, which is blatantly absurd. As I've already shown, +14 is already ahead of the curve. No, it's not going to be future-proof forever, but it's going to be future-proof for a long time.

All stat+23 is no worse than Blizzards' Atk+52 with Panic support. Concentrated stat increases from Blade tomes and even more so Blizzard can completely outpace the growth of bulk unless they run Dodge or some kind of damage reduction, and even then, Dodge does not always work due to stat checks that can significantly swing stats one way or the other.

All stat +23 is easy to counter by just not using buffs on defense, which both Aether Raids offense and defense did for a long time.

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

All stat+23 is no worse than Blizzards' Atk+52 with Panic support. Concentrated stat increases from Blade tomes and even more so Blizzard can completely outpace the growth of bulk unless they run Dodge or some kind of damage reduction, and even then, Dodge does not always work due to stat checks that can significantly swing stats one way or the other.

All stat +23 is easy to counter by just not using buffs on defense, which both Aether Raids offense and defense did for a long time.

On the other hand, Chilling Seal II applies its full effect on only one unit on the opposing team, and you don't get to pick which one. Furthermore, the target of Chilling Seal II is the opponent with the lowest Def, which means it's almost certainly not going to target the bulkier units that are difficult to kill until its squishier teammates are killed off first. Blizzard is not consistently getting that kind of massive Atk boost, so while its peak performance is absolutely insane, it's at the same time extremely swingy, just like how Lull effects make Litrblade extremely swingy as the balance.

 

And you seem to completely misunderstand what the problem with having access to +23 to all stats is. The problem is not that your Arena defense team can't win against it. It probably can't, but that's not a problem. And the solution is not to stop using dual Rally skills on Arena defense because it's not a problem to begin with if your defense team happens to lose one match, and Laegjarn's existence isn't going to stop other players from not running dual Rally skills.

The problem is that it's not healthy to keep adding more and more Fallen Edelgards into the game, either for the player to control or for the AI to control. There being one already doesn't justify adding more.

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IMO Fallen Edgelgard's Twin Crests should have been unique special skill that's a quick charging Gale Force, rather than just an innate ability of hers. She'd be much easier to deal with if she wasn't launching Bonfires with every single attack.

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

On the other hand, Chilling Seal II applies its full effect on only one unit on the opposing team, and you don't get to pick which one. Furthermore, the target of Chilling Seal II is the opponent with the lowest Def, which means it's almost certainly not going to target the bulkier units that are difficult to kill until its squishier teammates are killed off first. Blizzard is not consistently getting that kind of massive Atk boost, so while its peak performance is absolutely insane, it's at the same time extremely swingy, just like how Lull effects make Litrblade extremely swingy as the balance.

 

And you seem to completely misunderstand what the problem with having access to +23 to all stats is. The problem is not that your Arena defense team can't win against it. It probably can't, but that's not a problem. And the solution is not to stop using dual Rally skills on Arena defense because it's not a problem to begin with if your defense team happens to lose one match, and Laegjarn's existence isn't going to stop other players from not running dual Rally skills.

The problem is that it's not healthy to keep adding more and more Fallen Edelgards into the game, either for the player to control or for the AI to control. There being one already doesn't justify adding more.

Laegjarn with hypothetical uncapped stat boost is no where near the level of Edelgard: Hegemon Husk. Edelgard: Hegemon Husk got unconditional Galeforce and can heal, and her bulk is innately built in. Laegjarn's bulk is conditional on buffs and she does not come with Galeforce. If the player is unwilling to deal with a buffed Laegjarn with Firesweep, a Dancer/Singer with Cleaner can do the job just as easily for a fraction of the cost.

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25 minutes ago, XRay said:

If the player is unwilling to deal with a buffed Laegjarn with Firesweep,

The player is not dealing with Laegjarn in my scenario. She is under the player's control. A player-controlled Laegjarn in the Arena is the only way to consistently get the +23.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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59 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The player is not dealing with Laegjarn in my scenario. She is under the player's control. A player-controlled Laegjarn in the Arena is the only way to consistently get the +23.

All stat +23 is not going to make her invincible, and some teams run Harsh Command instead of Rallies so that +23 is not always guaranteed either.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

All stat +23 is not going to make her invincible, and some teams run Harsh Command instead of Rallies so that +23 is not always guaranteed either.

Teams running Harsh Command typically aren't running nothing but Harsh Command, and using debuffs to bait out Harsh Command only helps Laegjarn anyways.

And +23 to all stats is invincible enough for the purposes of Arena. A maxed out Laegjarn with R Duel Flying 4 and all other skill slots empty has 60 HP, 73 Def, and 54 Res with +6 to all stats in bonuses against an opponent with +6 to all stats in bonuses. For comparison, a maxed out Fallen Edelgard with her default Atk/Def Ideal 4 has 50 HP, 70 Def, and 56 Res with +6 to all stats in bonuses.

Not to mention, Laegjarn ends up with 79 Spd (with an Asset) and Null Follow-Up, which is way more reliable than Edelgard's built-in Wary Fighter and renders Dodge useless against her. And her 73 Def (which is all Def and not a result of Atk penalties) and 56 Res is high enough to turn off Blue Lion Rule and Dragon Wall, so not much is going to get in the way of her 85 Atk.

An uncapped Laegjarn has Edelgard beat in raw stats even with a passive A skill that is sub-optimal for performance and, unlike Edelgard, still has space to run Iote's Shield to remove her only common effective-weapon weakness. And Laegjarn still has skill slots left over to run things like Near Trace and Tempest for mobility or whatever other passive B and C skills and Sacred Seal you want for performance or sustain.

 

With only +14, a maxed out Laegjarn still manages to reach 60/74/70/64/45 before counting passive B and C skills and her Sacred Seal slot, which is still absurd for having only a weapon and a Duel passive A skill, just not as absurd as +23.

Meanwhile, for comparison, Fallen Dimitri, who is comparable to Laegjarn in terms of role (and exactly identical in role if Laegjarn chooses to have a Near Trace and Tempest), only reaches 45/85/67/49/28 with his weapon and passive A skill and +6 to all stats (with a Spd Asset for parity).

Laegjarn is still well ahead of the curve in terms of stat stacking.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Refines have been announced for this month:

  • Dusk Dragonstone (male Kana)
  • Dracofalchion (Brave Alm)
  • Flame Siegmund (Legendary Ephraim and Ephraim)
  • Ninis's Ice Lance (Brave Eliwood)
  • Swift Mulagir (Legendary Lyn)
  • Light of Dawn (Brave Micaiah)
  • Sanngridr (Brave Camilla)
Edited by Ice Dragon

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Kinda hoping this is the time they begin removing the pseudo-Solo effect (comparing the number of enemies nearby to number of allies nearby) in favor of just giving us a Solo effect. Both Dracofalchion and Flame Siegmund have this effect, and honestly I don't think pseudo-solo actually adds anything when most of the units with it want to be completely alone anyway (usually since they wind up with a Solo skill anyway, as is the case with LegEphraim's upgrade)

Edited by Xenomata

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Predictions:

Dusk Dragonstone

Sun Dragonstone has Lull Atk/Spd 3 and +4 to all stats on player phase or if the opponent has no visible buffs.

I'm half expecting them to make it identical to Sun Dragonstone, but with Lull Def/Res 3 instead, which would ironically make male Kana better than female Kana because Lull Def/Res 3 still doesn't exist yet to make Sun Dragonstone reliable.

Dracofalchion

I'm expecting the Brave effect to mirror his vanilla version's Double Lion refine, but probably without Double Lion's strict HP condition (since Scendscale makes it impractical to maintain).

The biggest flaw with Brave Alm's design is the fact that Scendscale pairs perfectly with Brave Sword, so pretty much every Brave Alm I've seen on other players' teams is running Brave Sword instead of Dracofalchion.

I could also see the stat bonus in his weapon's base effect being changed to have a "Blow or Solo" condition. And he'll probably also get an obligatory stat boost on his refine.

Flame Siegmund

The current weapon grants a guaranteed follow-up with the more enemies than allies condition and literally nothing else. I can see the effect being made more lenient with just a Solo condition or "Blow or Solo".

As for the refine effect, Solar Brace II is already giving him Canto [2] and "Null Guard", so it isn't going to be one of them. Since he's getting "Null Guard" from Solar Brace II and its healing is no longer tied to activating a combat Special, I can definitely see him getting +1 Special charge rate on his own attacks to make it easier to activate Galeforce, opening up his Sacred Seal slot for something other than Heavy Blade.

Getting a -6 Atk/Def debuff on the opponent like Obsidian Lance would also make a lot of sense for the obligatory stat boost, given, if I recall correctly, Duessel was Ephraim's lance teacher.

Ninis's Ice Lance

As this is one of the few weapons with effective damage against beasts, I think it would make the most sense to lean the weapon much more heavily towards countering beasts. Eliwood was definitely the least impressive of this batch of CYL units, and this would give him a strong enough niche to make him finally relevant.

Giving the weapon "Dragonsweep" and "Beastsweep" would be nice, though that's probably wishful thinking. I could, however, definitely see it getting a huge damage reduction (50% or higher) on the first attack from dragons and beasts along with Null Follow-Up to block Fallen Edelgard's Wary Fighter and cavalry beasts' follow-up prevention.

Additionally, with percentage damage reduction being somewhat common on dragons and beasts (Dragon Wall, Duo Myrrh, Fallen Edelgard, both versions of Freyja, New Year Lethe), I can also see it getting Thjalfi's effect of lowering the opponent's damage reduction.

Swift Mulagir

Give it all of the stats. Maybe Dodge and Dull All and refined Gigascalibur's Spd-based piercing damage. I've analyzed this one enough in the remix thread. Old bows really suck, and Lyn is the Legendary Hero with the least coherent skill set, so it really needs to be a major buff to make her relevant. Given that Lyn does actually have decent bulk, I'm hoping for a dual-phase weapon.

With Laws of Sacae II being upgraded to have its condition changed to "Blow or Unity", I assume Swift Mulagir's base effect will also have its condition changed to match.

Light of Dawn

This version of Micaiah focuses on debuffs with the weapon giving her bonuses matching the opponent's penalties and has Sabotage Atk/Spd as her exclusive skill. At the minimum, I think the refine should add Sabotage Def/Res and "Penalty Doubler" (given Gunnthra has both Dominance and "Penalty Doubler" on her weapon).

And as this is a Micaiah, I can also see it getting a guaranteed follow-up and/or a percentage damage reduction on the opponent's first attack.

Sanngridr

Pretty much anything is game here. The current weapon has Dazzling Staff, Swift Sparrow, and Gravity+.

Maybe it'll have more Swift Sparrow. Maybe it'll heal herself to offset Atk/Spd Push. Maybe it'll also inflict Pain+. Maybe it'll get Sumia's super Wings of Mercy.

I'm mostly expecting Canto because that's the new fad going on, and as an offensive staff unit, Camilla's B skill is already pretty much forced to be occupied by Wrathful Staff, which prevents her from running Far Trace.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Huh, I was really expecting them to wait another year. Wonder why not.

Like Veronica last year, Camilla has the best base effect of her batch, so I expect she'll get the least out of this.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And as this is a Micaiah, I can also see it getting a guaranteed follow-up and/or a percentage damage reduction on the opponent's first attack.

Maybe also with Iotes Shield built in as well?
It would do about jack crap for her, since she'd still take a lot of damage from one Bow attack if not outright die even if she can offset a load of damage, but if they give her %damage reduction on ranged attacks it would still leave a giant weakness that could still be exploited by the foe.

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Remaining Book 1+2 Units for the Weapon Refinery (As of version 5.9) by u/Greid_IX

Spoiler

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Book I, II and III units without Weapon Refines
 

Spoiler

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Basically same picture just different format.

I'm exicted for book 3 since I have units from there.

I think we will getting dancer refines together with L!Azura Remix or her weapon refine. If anything I hope they speed more refines.

Edited by Naoshi

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Poor Reinhardt and Olwen. Hector at least has access to another weapon refine, but those two are paying for Rein's dominance in the early days.

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I was actually half-expecting CYL3 units to not get their refines yet. This is jumping way further ahead of schedule than the last two sets of CYL refines were. Are we really going to see a Flower Hauteclere refine next year? Well, at least it's not just the CYL3 units. With 7 total weapons getting refines, I believe that makes this the biggest batch yet.

Let's just hope Swift Mulagir becomes worth using for once.

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3 minutes ago, Florete said:

I was actually half-expecting CYL3 units to not get their refines yet. This is jumping way further ahead of schedule than the last two sets of CYL refines were. Are we really going to see a Flower Hauteclere refine next year? Well, at least it's not just the CYL3 units. With 7 total weapons getting refines, I believe that makes this the biggest batch yet.

Let's just hope Swift Mulagir becomes worth using for once.

Version 2.2 had 10 units: 5 Falchions, Zephiel, and the first batch to gain new weapons (Caeda, Hinoka, Raven, and Felicia): https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/What's_in_Store_for_the_2.2.0_Update_(Notification)

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1 minute ago, Othin said:

Version 2.2 had 10 units: 5 Falchions, Zephiel, and the first batch to gain new weapons (Caeda, Hinoka, Raven, and Felicia): https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/What's_in_Store_for_the_2.2.0_Update_(Notification)

I was talking about weapons, not units. Units who share a weapon always get the refine together, so that one is actually just 6 weapons...although this is a weird case since Falchion got 3 different refines, making it 6 weapons getting refines but 8 unique refines. So it's kind of more and less at the same time, depending on how you look at it.

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1 minute ago, Florete said:

I was talking about weapons, not units. Units who share a weapon always get the refine together, so that one is actually just 6 weapons...although this is a weird case since Falchion got 3 different refines, making it 6 weapons getting refines but 8 unique refines. So it's kind of more and less at the same time, depending on how you look at it.

True. I think of the three Falchions as different weapons with the same names and base effect, since their appearances are different.

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7 minutes ago, Florete said:

I was actually half-expecting CYL3 units to not get their refines yet. This is jumping way further ahead of schedule than the last two sets of CYL refines were. Are we really going to see a Flower Hauteclere refine next year? Well, at least it's not just the CYL3 units. With 7 total weapons getting refines, I believe that makes this the biggest batch yet.

While the CYL3 refines are quite a bit ahead of schedule, I feel like the CYL4 refines will probably be more comparable to the CYL1 refines in terms of scheduling.

The CYL3 weapons are old enough that, other than Sanngridr, they still followed the old pattern of having only 2 effects (not counting effective damage), whereas the CYL4 weapons are all recent enough that their effects are still comparable to current weapons. There wasn't any significant power creep between the CYL1 weapons and the CYL3 weapons, and there similarly wasn't any significant power creep between the CYL4 weapons and the CYL5 weapons, but the difference between the CYL3 and CYL4 weapons is huge.

 

1 minute ago, Florete said:

although this is a weird case since Falchion got 3 different refines,

The reason Falchion "got 3 different refines" is because "Falchion" was always 3 different weapons, even at launch. The three weapons had the same name and effect, but different sprites. The difference between the weapons was purely cosmetic, but that could also have been said of the several Distant Counter swords, which only differed by name and sprite. That the three Falchions got different refines is no more unexpected than Raijinto and Siegfried getting different refines.

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My thoughts:

  • Alm: Hm... didn't think they'd give base Dracofalchion the movement +1 effect by default, but neat. The refine however... they straightup gave him Windsweep. That's awesome, so many refines we're like "that can work with Windsweep!", but here they just gave him Windsweep. Very cool.
  • Ephraims: Both Dracofalchion and Flame Siegmund, as hoped, have dropped the pseudo-Solo effect in favor of straightup Solo. Appreciated. Anyway...
    Very straightforward weapon and refine. Eph now has sped-up special cooldown without the need for Heavy Blade, which means one of his skill slots has been opened up for use. Both Ephs have benefited very greatly, especially LegEphraim with his upgraded Solar Brace.
  • Eliwood: Refine effect works in tandem with the base effect (which now also triggers on EP if Eliwood is within 2 spaces of an ally) and now grants +10 Atk/Spd/Def/Res, self NFU, and Dodge effect. Straight upgrades are always welcome, and this should help make Eliwood an effective Hegemon killer.
  • Kana: well that's just straight better than what FemKana has, what the hell.
  • Lyn: That refine is... hm. I don't know why she still has to be within 3 spaces of an ally, and I do not approve of her still having a Res +3 boost, but everything else about the refine is good... is it good enough to make LegLyn meta, I dunno but if that refine were put on Brave Lyn... ho boy.
  • Camilla: Straight upgrade. That's an effective +17 Atk she gets from her refined weapon, up from the original +4.
  • Micaiah: Hm... well it's not disappointing, makes Micaiah stronger and grants her an automatic follow-up, but after Gunnthra's upgrade straightup murders anyone who dares to have a debuffed stat, I was kinda hoping Micaiah would get... a little more. I mean, she was the girls winner of CYL3, and Alm up there gets Movement +1 just for existing.
    So yeah, not disappointing itself, disappointing compared to what everyone else got in comparison.

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Lol Lyn straight up gets Impenetrable Dark on her weapon.

Micaiah's is good...ish, but I really wish she had NFU or NCD to cap it off. I mean, Alm and Eliwood are out here with +10 stat balls and NFU (among other things) while Micaiah still arguably loses to Gunnthra.

I do really like Camilla's super Def/Res Ploy.

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