Jump to content
Corrobin

General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, XRay said:

If players can spend Orbs on their favorites because it brings them joy, they can spend Orbs on one unit to help them avoid misery. If the goal is to get as much resources as possible to fund favorites, I think it makes a lot of sense to invest a bit into a Firesweeper so you can easily coast repetitive PvP and ranking modes without much thought, and focus the rest of your attention and energy in enjoying your favorites.

You can maintain tier 17.5 in the Arena with nothing but a budget build Askr trio, so a half-assed team including the bonus Askr trio unit should have zero trouble maintaining tier 18.5. The difference between tier 18 and tier 20 is 4 Divine Codes and 1,200 feathers, which is insignificant.

You absolutely don't need to invest in fancy things to get a decent haul from PvP modes.

Investing in your favorites is generally a more satisfying use of resources, and any resources spent on other things are resources not spent on your favorites. The average player doesn't find min-maxing as fun as you do.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Watersweep is practically free, so Ishtar can use whatever Sweep the player needs more of. Alm: Imperial Ascent cannot Sweep dragons, but that is what Watersweep is for and you can slap that on to other units with Null Follow-Up Weapons.

You can't run both Windsweep and Watersweep simultaneously, and no PvP game modes let you switch builds after you can see the opponent's team.

And you're still stuck with Ishtar having access to only one stack of Poison Strike and Alm being a melee unit.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Forces of Will Focus ran twice about half a year apart, so you can pick up both units up.

Pulling from a rerun means you're having to stretch your orbs across four banners in that month.

Except this rerun happened during the winter holidays. Not only is there an extra banner running during the winter holidays (the New Year banner goes between the mid-December banner and the early January banner), but this rerun had to also compete with the three sparks from the Winter banner.

Good luck having orbs to spare.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

175 Orbs for Joshua: Resolute Tempest is not a bad deal in my opinion, and while Neimi is a dud, Rennac is pretty good fodder and his dagger can let any thief be a Sweeper.

And Joshua's banner was the early January banner this year. You know, the one right after everyone has already spent all of their orbs on the Winter and New Year banners.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

The beauty of Ishtar: Echoing Thunder is that she does not need to be a Sweeper to shut down Edelgard: Hegemon Husk, and she can do so with minimal investment against an Edelgard: Hegemon Husk with maximum investment. If for some reason the player is really paranoid about facing Edelgard: Hegemon Husk running Deflect Magic and/or triple Legendaries/Mythics boosting Res, then just throw Windsweep on her.

Wouldn't it be nice if Edelgard were the only tank out there.

 

54 minutes ago, XRay said:

Sweepers have been in the game since like almost the beginning of the game. Refusing to acknowledge and use Firesweep (and other Sweeps) is like refusing to acknowledge and use Dancers/Singers exist and are core to player phase strategies. You can run a player phase team with no Dancers/Singers, but it is going to be giant pain in the ass to rely solely on Reposition.

There exist 4-star dancers. There don't exist 4-star units with Firesweep Bow.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Free players should still spend Orbs on their account's economy (cannot think of a better word) to get more resources overtime.

Putting resources into getting more resources only matters if the resources you get are more than the resources you spent.

There is no difference in the orb rewards between tier 18 and tier 20 in the Arena, and reaching tier 18 is beyond trivial. Aether Raids has no orb rewards at all.

Divine Codes, Dragonflowers, and Grails are nice and all, but are far less impactful of resources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only remember ever pulling for fodder once: intentionally pulling for a second Lewyn to give Lilina Special Spiral. But even that had mitigating circumstances in that the first Lewyn I pulled was awful (-Spd probably?) so I wanted a good one anyway. That said, it doesn't count single-round investments like spending an extra 4-15 orbs on a banner's first round to try for a unit with decent fodder.

My notion of building counter units dates back to 2018, where everyone had half-a-dozen Bowbreaker Raventomes in their barracks. Oh, and I suppose a couple of 4*+10 units with unrefined armour-effective Prfs like Hana and Bartre. Since that era has passed, units have generally been good enough out of the box that I have enough counters for every occasion just through pulling modern units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You can maintain tier 17.5 in the Arena with nothing but a budget build Askr trio, so a half-assed team including the bonus Askr trio unit should have zero trouble maintaining tier 18.5. The difference between tier 18 and tier 20 is 4 Divine Codes and 1,200 feathers, which is insignificant.

You absolutely don't need to invest in fancy things to get a decent haul from PvP modes.

Investing in your favorites is generally a more satisfying use of resources, and any resources spent on other things are resources not spent on your favorites. The average player doesn't find min-maxing as fun as you do.

It takes so little investment to consistently clear anything the game throws at you that I'm slightly surprised whales even exist. Maybe at the very highest PvP a difference shines through between a +10 unit and a +1 unit, but generally speaking units are so crazy good with guaranteed follow ups and damage reduction out the gate that they can kill anything they need to without the extra stats.

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It takes so little investment to consistently clear anything the game throws at you that I'm slightly surprised whales even exist. Maybe at the very highest PvP a difference shines through between a +10 unit and a +1 unit, but generally speaking units are so crazy good with guaranteed follow ups and damage reduction out the gate that they can kill anything they need to without the extra stats.

For top-tier modern units, the difference between a +10 unit and a +1 unit is less about performance and more about score. The reason why whaling for merges is a thing is not because you need the merges to make the unit good, but because you need the merges to score high enough to remain at the top.

As a reminder of just how important merges are for scoring in the Arena (and other game modes that use Arena scoring), 10 points of stats, 200 SP of skills, and 1 merge are all worth the same amount (1 point per match). The difference in score between the unit with the highest stat total and the unit with the lowest stat total is equivalent to only 6 merges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

For top-tier modern units, the difference between a +10 unit and a +1 unit is less about performance and more about score. The reason why whaling for merges is a thing is not because you need the merges to make the unit good, but because you need the merges to score high enough to remain at the top.

As a reminder of just how important merges are for scoring in the Arena (and other game modes that use Arena scoring), 10 points of stats, 200 SP of skills, and 1 merge are all worth the same amount (1 point per match). The difference in score between the unit with the highest stat total and the unit with the lowest stat total is equivalent to only 6 merges.

Ah yeah, I forgot they had that method of encouragement. I particularly dislike it in Resonance battles where I can play literally perfectly and still end up being demoted just because I'm tied with a thousand other people who have also played perfectly but have less merges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It takes so little investment to consistently clear anything the game throws at you that I'm slightly surprised whales even exist. Maybe at the very highest PvP a difference shines through between a +10 unit and a +1 unit, but generally speaking units are so crazy good with guaranteed follow ups and damage reduction out the gate that they can kill anything they need to without the extra stats.

Honestly, yeah.

The closest I came to pulling for fodder was when Nagi was being rerun on a legendary banner alongside two green units I was missing, and I wanted more DC fodder so that pushed me over the edge of spending a few orbs to take a swing at getting someone green on it. Even then, it was a case where I could have reasonably pulled on the banner without Nagi being on it, I just hadn't planned on doing so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Othin said:

Honestly, yeah.

The closest I came to pulling for fodder was when Nagi was being rerun on a legendary banner alongside two green units I was missing, and I wanted more DC fodder so that pushed me over the edge of spending a few orbs to take a swing at getting someone green on it. Even then, it was a case where I could have reasonably pulled on the banner without Nagi being on it, I just hadn't planned on doing so.

I pulled a few Milas for fodder because Bracing Stance 3 was such a good skill, but then I didn't even end up giving it to many units and still have a few Milas I'm debating between merging or just leaving hanging out in my barracks. Units are so highly stacked with their default kit that even skill inheritance feels like something that's not all that important any more, unless you just want to show blatant favouritism to a unit that just isn't any good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I pulled a few Milas for fodder because Bracing Stance 3 was such a good skill, but then I didn't even end up giving it to many units and still have a few Milas I'm debating between merging or just leaving hanging out in my barracks. Units are so highly stacked with their default kit that even skill inheritance feels like something that's not all that important any more, unless you just want to show blatant favouritism to a unit that just isn't any good.

Yeah, I rarely do SI these days. Back when I seriously played Arena and AR, I did it occasionally when I wanted to add a new unit to my lineups there, but in the months since then, I've barely used it. I took a look through my current Book 6 units and the only one I could find SI on is Vantage on Valentine's Chrom. (Haven't even gotten around to throwing movement assists onto units like Ash and Ascended Idunn yet.) I've picked up a few Forma units with fancy skills, but otherwise, base kits and occasional common SI are plenty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair I do kinda get that these days you don't technically need to fully invest in a unit just to clear content, but A. I spoil my favorite units (or in some cases those who just happened to be summoned a bunch), and B. there is no B, that's about it really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2022 at 9:00 AM, Ice Dragon said:

You can't run both Windsweep and Watersweep simultaneously, and no PvP game modes let you switch builds after you can see the opponent's team.

And you're still stuck with Ishtar having access to only one stack of Poison Strike and Alm being a melee unit.

You do not need both Windsweep and Watersweep on the same unit. You just need to have enough of both among your units with Null Follow-Up Weapons.

On 5/5/2022 at 9:00 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Pulling from a rerun means you're having to stretch your orbs across four banners in that month.

Except this rerun happened during the winter holidays. Not only is there an extra banner running during the winter holidays (the New Year banner goes between the mid-December banner and the early January banner), but this rerun had to also compete with the three sparks from the Winter banner.

Good luck having orbs to spare.

Free players will have to prioritize, and I doubt they are spending their Orbs on every single new Focus.

On 5/5/2022 at 9:00 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Wouldn't it be nice if Edelgard were the only tank out there.

She is the unit people have trouble with the most. If you can kill her in one round of combat, you have a better chance of killing other Far Save tanks too.

On 5/5/2022 at 9:00 AM, Ice Dragon said:

There exist 4-star dancers. There don't exist 4-star units with Firesweep Bow.

Firesweep Bow is not the only option. Watersweep is practically free. Windsweep is more expensive using Grails, but it is free in terms of Orbs in that situation.

Even if a player does not consciously spend on Sweepers, they should have at least gotten some from the special 4* pool and pity breakers. There might be a tiny minority of players that are so unlucky to have none of these, but most players that have spent at least a year or two with the game should have a few units on the following special 4* list.

Spoiler

Alm
Alm: Imperial Ascent
Eliwood: Marquess Pherae
Faye
Innes
Ishtar
Jaffar
Karla
Laegjarn
Mikoto
Ryoma
Sue
Genny
Maribelle
Mikoto
Veronica: Brave Princess

And we can more than double that list if we include current pity breakers that everyone suffers from.

Spoiler

Byleth: Proven Professor
Byleth: Tested Professor
Catherine
Constance
Dimitri: Savage Boar
Eleonora
Ingrid
Mareeta
Rennac
Selena: Fluorspar
Alm: Imperial Ascent
Camilla: Light of Nohr
Eliwood: Marquess Pherae
Eirika: Pledged Restorer
Marth: Prince of Light
Laegjarn: Flame Ascendent
Joshua: Resolute Tempest
Mareeta: Astra Awakened
Byleth: The Fódlan Star

I find it highly unlikely that a player who spent a year or two with this game have not gotten at least a couple of these units across the two list, and I have not even include Special Heroes yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, XRay said:

You do not need both Windsweep and Watersweep on the same unit. You just need to have enough of both among your units with Null Follow-Up Weapons.

And this requires you to have double the number of units with Null Follow-Up on their weapons.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Free players will have to prioritize, and I doubt they are spending their Orbs on every single new Focus.

Yes, that is called "saving orbs".

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

She is the unit people have trouble with the most. If you can kill her in one round of combat, you have a better chance of killing other Far Save tanks too.

The best Far Save tanks are significantly harder to kill than Edelgard and are countered by a mostly-different set of units.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Firesweep Bow is not the only option. Watersweep is practically free. Windsweep is more expensive using Grails, but it is free in terms of Orbs in that situation.

Windsweep and Watersweep have drawbacks that I already mentioned and you haven't refuted.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Even if a player does not consciously spend on Sweepers, they should have at least gotten some from the special 4* pool and pity breakers. There might be a tiny minority of players that are so unlucky to have none of these, but most players that have spent at least a year or two with the game should have a few units on the following special 4* list.

And we can more than double that list if we include current pity breakers that everyone suffers from.

I find it highly unlikely that a player who spent a year or two with this game have not gotten at least a couple of these units across the two list, and I have not even include Special Heroes yet.

You can remove all of the melee units from that list because they are no better than running Firesweep Sword and Firesweep Lance, which I have already argued are significantly worse than Firesweep Bow.

Innes and Jaffar are both absolute garbage at sweeping. Staff units are typically not good at wall breaking due to having less powerful weapons and less access to relevant skills (no Blow skills, forcing them to use skills that are harder to get, and no Poison Strike).

This leaves only Faye, Ishtar, and Sue in the first list and Constance, Eleonora, Ascended Joshua, Ascended Laegjarn, Rennac, and Selena in the second. That's 3 out of 124 units in the 4-star SR pool and 6 out of 100 units in the 5-star pool. That's about 1 in every 400 pulls to get a unit from one of these two lists when pulling from non-Legendary/Mythic Hero banners. When running only on free orbs, that comes out to about one very 5-6 months.

But that's only the current summon rate. Half of the units in the second list didn't even exist 6 months ago, and a fourth unit didn't exist if you go back another 2 months. Selena was released a year and a half ago, leaving only Eleonora to have existed for the entire last 2 years. Sue was dropped to the 4-star SR pool during this year's anniversary, and the 4-star SR pool itself has only existed since last year's anniversary.

For the first year of the 4-star SR pool, the expected value of the number of units from the list gotten from the 4-star SR pool is only about 0.7. In the three months since the recent set of demotes, the expected value is about 0.15.

For simplicity of calculation, I'll assume that the size of the 5-star pool remains relatively constant at about 100 units. It takes roughly 40-50 months on average to pull any individual unit as a pity breaker. Joshua and Rennac have been in the pool for 3 months (reminder that it takes a month after release to drop into the pity breaker pool), Laegjarn for 4.5 months, Constance for 6.5 months, Selena for 16 months, and Eleonora for more than the past 2 years.

For a player that has been playing for the past 2 years and spends none of their orbs on Legendary/Mythic Hero banners, the expected value of the number of units from the two lists is very close to 2, effectively one from the first list and one from the second.

So no, the average player does not have reasonable access to good sweepers. Unless you're specifically pulling for them, you probably have 2 at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

gIZO5en.png

I am becoming increasingly upset at the amount of people I've had to remind that Bonus Doubler is an Infantry-locked skill and cannot be inherited by Thea.

Note: Kaden's refine is mistranslated. It grants Def/Res+2 and Guard to the ally within 2 spaces, not to himself.


e: I'm also getting upset at how many people I've had to remind that Pegasus Flight runs its stat check before combat, and not when Thea is swimming in in-combat buffs.

Edited by Some Jerk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Refines are out.

Thea: Icy Maltet

Base effect is:

  • +6 Atk/Def if unit has 10 or more Dragonflowers
  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or Stance condition:
    • +4 to all stats
    • +1 to all stats if unit has 1 or more Dragonflowers
    • Guard if unit has 5 or more Dragonflowers

Refine effect is:

  • If there is at least one ally within 3 spaces:
    • +4 to all stats
    • Bonus Doubler

Thea gets a total of +15/9/15/9, Guard, and Bonus Doubler with trivial conditions if she has 10 Dragonflowers.

This brings her stats up to 43+/65/47/49/40- with max Dragonflowers and only her weapon equipped before accounting for Bonus Doubler.

For comparison, the previous best non-Brave 4-star lance flier, Shigure, had 46-/69/50/30-/28. Shigure has +4/+3 offenses before accounting for Bonus Doubler, but Thea easily beats that if she has Bonuses active.

The best non-Brave 5-star lance fliers are currently Young Tana and Legendary Caeda. Tana has 42-/63+/49+/41-/35 with the Slaying effect on player phase (-10 Def/Res on enemy phase). Caeda has 40-/63/49+/33-/37 with effective damage and Canto (2) and steals her opponent's Bonuses.

Thea now dethrones Shigure as the best non-Brave 4-star lance flier. She's significantly bulkier than modern 5-star fast lance fliers, but relies on having Bonus Doubler active to keep up with her Spd.

Gharnef: Imhullu

Base effect has been changed to add +5 Atk/Spd with a Blow-or-Solo condition, and the damage on turn 3 has been increased from 5 to 7.

Refine effect is:

  • If HP is 25% or higher:
    • +5 Atk/Spd
    • Opponent cannot counterattack if opponent is not a tome unit
    • 30% damage reduction from in-combat damage and AoE Special damage if opponent is not a tome unit

His turn-3 effect is still pretty useless, as the only change to it is that it now deals 7 damage instead of 5.

However, he now gets a sizable +10 Atk/Spd with trivial conditions. And he blocks counterattacks and gets 30% damage reduction against everything except tomes.

Gharnef now has 58-/48 offenses with max Dragonflowers and only his weapon equipped. Compared to recent infantry red tomes, Hugh has 60+/53- offenses before accounting for his Bonus Doubler. The more similar Nyx has 64+/51+ and deals bonus damage equal to the amount reduced by her damage reduction.

While Gharnef's offenses still fall noticeably behind the leaders, he's a ranged Sweeper unit that's easy to obtain and merge.

Idunn: Demonic Breath

Base effect's condition has been changed from "unit has a Penalty or HP is less than 100%" to "Stance condition or HP is less than 100%".

Refine effect is:

  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or Stance condition:
    • +5 Atk to self and -5 Atk to opponent
    • 70% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack if the opponent can make a follow-up attack

Idunn interestingly loses her weapon's base effect if she's at full health with a Penalty, though that shouldn't be too much of a problem since she isn't typically used on player phase.

Unfortunately, she doesn't get some form of Svalinn Shield like her other versions, which is kind of disappointing.

Her refine effect gives her the typical +5 Atk to herself and -5 Atk to her opponent that pretty much every dragon has been getting ever since the release of Lantern Breath. With the 70% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack if they can make a follow-up attack, the weapon's refine effect is nearly identical to Valentine Gustav's Loyalist Axe... except Demonic Breath has a full base effect on top.

Idunn now effectively has 51/63/33-/54+/46+ with max Dragonflowers and only her weapon equipped in addition to Penalty nullification and effective damage. Gustav has 51/65+/20-/54-/39 plus the Slaying effect. Given that Idunn is extremely similar to Gustav, her only real drawback for running a Near Save build (other than getting the skills) is the fact that her color makes her exceptionally weak to Brave Eirika.

Picnic Felicia: Eldhrimnir

Base effect has been changed to also reduce the opponent's Def on top of the existing Atk/Spd and increases the scaling from 50% to 80%. Maximum is still 8. Additionally adds +4 to all stats if HP is 25% or higher.

Refine effect is:

  • If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or Stance condition:
    • +4 to all stats
    • The defensive half of Null Follow-Up
    • 30% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack if unit's Res is greater than opponent's Res

As predicted. Felicia got the exact same treatment as Selkie. She now gets a flat +8 to all stats and effectively an additional maximum +8 to all stats from the Res comparison.

Felicia now effectively has 49-/65-/59/49-/54 with max Dragonflowers and only her weapon equipped in addition to effective damage, half of Null Follow-Up, and 30% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack. Selkie effectively has 41+/68-/57/42/61 on player phase (-4 Atk/Def/Res on enemy phase) in addition to the other half of Null Follow-Up and Guard as well as follow-up prevention on player phase.

Felicia notably has a bit more Spd (and actually has the highest Spd in the game now, not counting effects that copy the values of Bonuses and Penalties), but has less visible Res to use for her Res comparison and less Res to use for her in-combat Res comparison (for damage reduction) due to the fact that the +8 to all stats from the Res comparison is actually a penalty to the opponent's Atk for Felicia whereas it's an actual bonus to her own Res for Selkie. This is also an issue for Felicia's Atk stat because the extra +8 from the Res comparison is a penalty to the opponent's Def, meaning it doesn't scale with her effective damage (which is kind of a big deal for dealing with Fallen Edelgard).

Like with Selkie, Felicia now finally has a competitive Atk stat, as long as her Res is higher than her opponent's by enough, but suffers from the fact that her visible Res stat isn't reliably that much higher than the Res stat on a lot of bulky attackers. But at the very least, Felicia does get the defensive half of Null Follow-Up, which does help against bulky attackers that typically rely on guaranteed follow-ups.

Also, Felicia has the major advantage of being an armor unit and therefore has access to Savvy Fighter, though it does make the half of Null Follow-Up on Felicia's weapon kind of pointless since Savvy Fighter already comes with all of Null Follow-Up.

Kaden: Kitsune Fang

Base effect has been changed to add +5 Atk/Spd if there is at least one ally within 3 spaces.

Refine effect is:

  • +5 Atk/Spd if there is at least one ally within 3 spaces
  • +2 Def/Res and Guard as a Drive effect (There is a translation error in the English description. This is a Drive effect, not a self buff.)

Kaden's base offenses were actually pretty okay before his refine, but his combat potential was limited by the fact that he didn't get any combat effects on his weapon. With the +10 Atk/Spd from his refine, he now has 65/49 offenses with max Dragonflowers and only his weapon equipped. Unfortunately, he doesn't have any other combat effects besides the beast cavalry common Impact effect, but it should let him function as a clean-up unit after his support is no longer necessary.

The only new support effect he gained was +2 Def/Res and Guard as a Drive effect, but Drive Guard is quite useful and lets tanks run alternative skills in their A and B slots to gain additional effects.

Interestingly, the two +5 Atk/Spd effects from the base effect and the refine effect both have the exact same condition, which is pretty rare for refines.

Duma: Fell Breath

Base effect's condition has been changed from "opponent's HP is less than 100%" to "opponent's HP is less than 100% or unit's Atk is greater than opponent's Atk".

Refine effect is:

  • With a Blow-or-Unity condition:
    • +5 Atk to self and -5 Atk to opponent
    • 30% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack
    • Additional damage equal to 30% of the difference between unit's Atk and opponent's Res if unit's Atk is greater than opponent's Res

Adding the Atk comparison to his base effect was easily predictable due to Upheaval+ having this exact combination of conditions for its new Dull All effect.

The refine effect of course gives him the same +5 Atk to himself and -5 Atk to the opponent from Lantern Breath.

Flat 30% damage reduction on the opponent's first attack is pretty good, considering he has follow-up prevention on his weapon's base effect, and what is effectively +30% damage on his first attack is quite nice, especially since he can't get a guaranteed follow-up on both phases without support.

That said, not having a way to inflict Deep Wounds to prevent opponents from healing back the damage from Upheaval is a bit disappointing, especially since he shares a season with Elimine, so even if he can destroy the Healing Tower, there's still a decent chance that the challenger will have a source of healing. Additionally, he also doesn't get a way to mitigate the recoil damage from his new default Fury 4, which hurts his sustain and makes it easier to wear him down.

 

Overall thoughts:

A lot of these refines feel like they were missing something that would have really helped the units stand out. It's not that they're bad, just that they fell short of the high bar that other recent refines have set.

Idunn didn't get Svalinn Shield, unlike her other versions. Kaden didn't get Null Panic to prevent his support effects from being blocked by Panic. Duma didn't get En Garde to counteract Fury's recoil or a means of inflicting Deep Wounds to make it harder to heal off the damage from Upheaval.

Felicia is unfortunately even more susceptible to not getting her full stat bonus compared to Selkie due to her lower visible Res stat. The defensive half of Null Follow-Up on her weapon is also somewhat wasted when running Savvy Fighter. However, it's quite annoying that her visible Res is lower than Fallen Edelgard's, which does make enough of a difference. As it is, Felicia only barely manages to get enough Atk to kill Edelgard in one round, even with effective damage.

Gharnef still falls noticeably behind modern units, but I suppose that's an acceptable tradeoff for having a very powerful Sweep effect on a unit as easily obtainable as he is.

Thea's is the only refine that I don't have any complaints about.

Edited by Ice Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. I'm really surprised they didn't give Duma deep wounds in some way. Kind of weakens his original gimmick. Of course what he got instead is kind of ridiculous, damage reduction from first attack (and remember he has follow up immunity built in) and an additional 30% damage per attack. That sounds excellent.

Gharnef having a firesweep against everything but tome units is both useful and a great reference to his original invincibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In order of don't care to really care:

  • Imhullu's base effect was upgraded by a whole extra 2 damage when triggered. Fantastic. When refined, Gharnef gets a total of Atk/Spd +10 through Blow/Solo/Healthy triggers, and against non-magic foes reduces damage taken by 30% and prevents all counterattacks. Given his surprisingly fast nature this does help his direct combat performance, and having an almost full Sweep effect is nice. Just... kind of a shame the original effect's trigger area has not changed at all... and also still doesn't make me want to use him.
  • Eldhrimnir's base effect additionally targets Def and has had its Res comparison made more lenient. She also gets extra stats plus enemy-NFU if foe initiates, and first-hit damage reduction if her Res is higher. Her base Res is... still only 35 neutral... but maybe that's just enough? It's not like many PP units have amazing Res as-is...
  • Weird... I know Ilian Pegasus Knights are mostly mercenaries, but Thea really went all-in on demanding Dragonflowers. 10 uses to get the Atk/Def bonus is 1,200 flowers total... even Farina only asks for 5, and Thea isn't even recruited by gold.
    ...well anyway, she gets a total of all stat +9, Guard, and Bonus Doubler effect if foe initiates and she is within 3 spaces of an ally. Pretty good as a 4* unit, just kind of a lot of flowers to demand...
  • Kaden gets Atk/Spd +10 if he is within 3 spaces of an ally. I think it's pretty rare for a weapon's base effect and special refine to have exact matching trigger conditions? I don't really feel like double checking to make sure, but that's not the focus here.
    With Some Jerk's note in mind, Kaden's ally support game has not changed much, only getting a minor upgrade of Def/Res +2 and Guard. That may be enough considering he can act as a Save beacon and provide the Guard effect so many Save units carry in their Stance skills, freeing their A slots for other A passives. Just give two Save armors the Rally+ combination to fully boost Kaden's stats and he's good to go (as long as Panic isn't around)
  • Demonic Breath now also triggers if the foe initiates combat. The Special Refine also calls to the weapons from the To Stay Dreaming dancer banner. 70% damage reduction is rough, but that it's only on their first hit could be troublesome if they trigger their special later on...

Ugh... Duma, you had one expectation from me, and you didn't meet it...
Well the effect itself is easier to trigger, and the special refine is a slightly stronger Dragon's Wrath in addition to an Atk buff/debuff. I guess Fury 4 helps, but I'd still rather keep Distant Counter on him. When combined with Upheavel+, the effect always triggers regardless of enemy Atk and he ignores enemy bonuses.

I wonder if Mila's remix, if it ever comes, will get an effect that lets her heal her allies, to counter Duma...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I wonder if Mila's remix, if it ever comes, will get an effect that lets her heal her allies, to counter Duma...?

She could get [False Start] in her Turnwheel+, which would counter his Upheavel+.

Not that they will face each other in AR, since they are from different season combos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

She could get [False Start] in her Turnwheel+, which would counter his Upheavel+.

Not that they will face each other in AR, since they are from different season combos.

Would it be the worst thing in the world to shuffle the season combos?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welp, I can't afford to build Thea so another year of delaying the blue flier project it is. Next one is what, Altena?

Can't justify Idunn or Felicia either for now, though if I ever pick up an Idunn merge I might since my red armour lineup is horrific - besides Idunn my best ones are, uh, an unmerged Duo Hector and Black Knight with however many merges as we got free copies. And I'm down to triple-digit grails after burning them all on Walhart and Yen'fay so Garney is no go either. (Don't have Duma or Kaden)

Edited by Humanoid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Picnic Flora's weapon refine wouldn't be the same as Felicia because this is a little bit underwhelming.

Duma dmg reduction only means I can hit him twice and activates my Thorr's galeforce reliably, especially during Thorr's season.

Kind of wish Kaden gives +5 atk/spd to ally instead of himself to enhance his support role.

I feel like recent new units have so much good effects (young mia and Ike) that these refines can't even catch up or be the 2nd best option, because the second best option is these new powerful units, after getting powercrept by the next banner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m so happy Thea got a great refine and thematically fits where she comes from as aThea fan I’m happy she’s much better now it’s has lots of great effects to play around with!

Idunn while great I’m disappointed she doesn’t get Svalinn Shield massive missed opportunity makes her especially weak to duo Chrom but great nonetheless.

Gharnef with firesweep on all except magic is pretty good for some offensive builds extra splash damage is nice.

Picnic Felicia high speed DR tank might be fun running Savy Fighter on her!

Kaden hasn’t really changed too much but drive Guard is great for save teams.

Duma typical tank effects but much better now than when he was released still nothing too outstanding.

Edited by Mage Goddess Lysithea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty happy with Thea's weapon and refine. It isn't super crazy or anything, but it works, it's good. Since I've already invested in her so heavily with max merges and dragon flowers, I'm getting immediate payoff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kaden is nice. Together with Lucina: Brave Princess, Save tanks can basically offload Special Fighter. You can also run two of him for a massive 12/12/16/16 in combat buffs.

Gharnef can Sweep, which is good.

Idunn is basically red Gustav with Bond.

Duma is decent. He is harder to kill now, but most wallbreakers can probably still bust him open.

Not sure what to run for B skill of Felicia: Off the Menu. Savvy Fighter and Hardy Fighter already got defensive Null Follow-Up, so it feels slightly redundant to run those, but you still want that damage reduction.

Thea feels like the weakest of the bunch, but she still seems okay.

Kaden and Gharnef are the best out of the bunch, although I do not think you necessarily need their Refines if you already got good support units and Sweepers. The armor units are all decent, but I think Arden is still better if you need a Save tank, and he is free. Thea is not too bad, but I do not think she is worth Refining unless you really like her.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

And this requires you to have double the number of units with Null Follow-Up on their weapons.

You only need enough of them to Sweep problematic units. If you have one Windsweep and one Watersweep, you are basically all set to go for most modes. The only mode where players may have issue with is Arena Assault since that mode may demand more depending on who you match with.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

The best Far Save tanks are significantly harder to kill than Edelgard and are countered by a mostly-different set of units.

With similar levels of investment, Ishtar: Echoing Thunder can kill Fjorm: Ice Ascendent if the latter does not do enough Res stacking, and will still deal signifcant damage even if the former gets counter killed. If Ishtar: Echoing Thunder runs a Blazing set up instead, she can vaporize Fjorm: Ice Ascendent with some bonus buffs but without any merges.

Save tanks are significantly harder to kill only when under player control because players can support them more effectively.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Windsweep and Watersweep have drawbacks that I already mentioned and you haven't refuted.

Not every bulky tank requires two stacks of Poison Strike to chip. Having two makes the process go much faster, but it is not a requirement. You only need double Poison Strike for a handful of super bulky units like Edelgard: Hegemon Husk.

And against Spd tanks, regular nukes are in a better position to deal with them since their bulk relies on having a signficant Spd difference to trigger meaningful damage reduction.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

You can remove all of the melee units from that list because they are no better than running Firesweep Sword and Firesweep Lance, which I have already argued are significantly worse than Firesweep Bow.

I mentioned those melee units because their damage output is significantly higher than inheritable Firesweep weapons. While they are a bit more difficult to use compared to ranged units, it is made up for their ability to dispatch bulky foes in a quicker time frame.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Innes and Jaffar are both absolute garbage at sweeping. Staff units are typically not good at wall breaking due to having less powerful weapons and less access to relevant skills (no Blow skills, forcing them to use skills that are harder to get, and no Poison Strike).

Innes and Jaffar have weak Atk stats, but they do not need it to be high either to do their job. Pain for staff units is good enough in most cases.

On 5/8/2022 at 9:58 PM, Ice Dragon said:

So no, the average player does not have reasonable access to good sweepers. Unless you're specifically pulling for them, you probably have 2 at best.

Every Choose Your Legend Focus has at least one unit that can effectively Sweep, especially after Refines, so players are bound to have some of their free picks as Sweepers. Players also got multiple chances to get guaranteed summons, and these are the Foci where players are most likely going to spend their Orbs on.

A player that has been playing for years is bound to be pitybroken by something that can Sweep.

 

22 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@XRay You have your wish now. There is now no excuse for a player to not have Gharnef as a Sweeper.

There is also Walhart. He basically turns your whole team into Firesweepers.

Players who have been playing since the past half year got Corrin: Ninja Nightfall Act for free, and you can slap your choice of Sweep on her B slot. And the year before that, players got Lyn: Ninja-Friend Duo.

Edited by XRay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mage Goddess Lysithea said:

Thea is definitely not the weakest Duma feels the most nothing to out there

Thea does not really have a niche that she can do better than other units though. Her effects suggests an enemy phase or dual phase build, but she lacks access to important skills that infantry and armor units got (infantry got Dodge and Null Follow-Up, armor got various Fighter skills). For player phase, ranged nukes are better since they are easier to use and are safer, and she lacks the right effects that other melee units got to Galeforce effectively or bust tanks.

For actual effects, Icy Maltet is just a glorified Guard Lance. Bonus buffs and bonus doubler are just more stats, and stats alone are not enough to set a unit apart. She does get lots of stats, but it is going to get outdated really fast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...