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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Thea does not really have a niche that she can do better than other units though.

Most players don't care how well 4-star units compare to 5-star units because comparing a unit they have to a unit they don't have is pointless.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

She does get lots of stats, but it is going to get outdated really fast.

We currently get boosts in base stats at the same time that we get Dragonflower cap increases. When Dragonflowers are taken into consideration, there has actually been zero stat creep in terms of base stat totals since CYL 3 and only small amounts of stat creep in individual stats.

Modern exclusive weapons almost always grant either +5 to all stats or +6 to two or three stats plus the "permanent stat" effect and one or two additional effects (I'm counting step-up effects as one big effect) (weapon-type common effects and effective damage are free effects). The only change between CYL 4 and now is that stronger weapons have two effects in the additional effects category instead of just one. (If a unit has Distant/Close Counter on their weapon, it replaces one of the aforementioned effects.)

 

The bulk of power creep happening right now comes from exclusive non-weapon skills, which are getting more and more effects, but are pretty much restricted to Legendary/Mythic Heroes, CYL units, and the occasional alt of a former unit in the previous categories, and from inheritable skills, which are available to all units of the unit class.

I don't think just being a giant ball of stats is that bad, especially with how often we're currently getting fancy new units with full skill effects as Bonuses or Drives.

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7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Most players don't care how well 4-star units compare to 5-star units because comparing a unit they have to a unit they don't have is pointless.

Yen'Fey is free. Arden is free.

If you want a blue unit, Nowi is practically free. She has access to better skills, and do not have to worry about being weak to archers. Dragon effectiveness is far more manageable than flier effectiveness.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

We currently get boosts in base stats at the same time that we get Dragonflower cap increases. When Dragonflowers are taken into consideration, there has actually been zero stat creep in terms of base stat totals since CYL 3 and only small amounts of stat creep in individual stats.

Modern exclusive weapons almost always grant either +5 to all stats or +6 to two or three stats plus the "permanent stat" effect and one or two additional effects (I'm counting step-up effects as one big effect) (weapon-type common effects and effective damage are free effects). The only change between CYL 4 and now is that stronger weapons have two effects in the additional effects category instead of just one. (If a unit has Distant/Close Counter on their weapon, it replaces one of the aforementioned effects.)

 

The bulk of power creep happening right now comes from exclusive non-weapon skills, which are getting more and more effects, but are pretty much restricted to Legendary/Mythic Heroes, CYL units, and the occasional alt of a former unit in the previous categories, and from inheritable skills, which are available to all units of the unit class.

I don't think just being a giant ball of stats is that bad, especially with how often we're currently getting fancy new units with full skill effects as Bonuses or Drives.

I am not concerned about stat differences. What makes or breaks a unit in this day and age is not just about stats, it is the amount of effects a unit can cram into its kit and how synergistic that effect combination is. Being a giant ball of stats is not going to help you if you lack the right effects or even simply the amount of effects. In this case, while Guard is an extremely important effect, it is also an effect that can be easily moved to another slot or be offloaded entirely to a support unit.

If stats can be likened to raw force, effects can be likened to force multiplying levers and pulleys. Using the same example, Guard is not only a defensive effect, with the release of Vital Astra and Hardy Bearing, it is also slowly acquiring the elements of an offensive effect to mitigate the activation of Vital Astra and Hardy Bearing. Guard gets more powerful as stronger Specials are released. On the other hand, all stat +5 is going to stay that way forever if not get worse over time, as it is not going to react as well against new effects. Increasing stacks of damage reduction lately makes Atk less and less effective, and combos like Sweep-true damage-Poison Strike makes Def/Res irrelevant.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Yen'Fey is free. Arden is free.

If you want a blue unit, Nowi is practically free. She has access to better skills, and do not have to worry about being weak to archers. Dragon effectiveness is far more manageable than flier effectiveness.

Yen'fay costs Grails and Trait Fruits and doesn't have access to flier mobility. Arden costs Grails and has even worse mobility. Nowi has significantly lower stats and doesn't have flier mobility.

Archers aren't a problem on player phase.

You are trying to use Thea as a dual-phase unit with a focus on enemy phase. I see Thea as a player-phase unit with enemy-phase presence because that's what her movement type promotes.

No, needing to stay within 3 spaces of an ally is not a problem for player-phase units with 2 movement.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I am not concerned about stat differences.

You should be.

A unit can have all the fancy effects they want, but if they don't have the stats to back them up, there's no point. A unit with high stats and no additional effects on their weapon can still function using only the effects on their passive skills and teammates, especially now that there are so many different effects you can stack from teammates. Henriette is the best example of this, as the only non-stat effect on her weapon is passive healing.

Vital Astra is a shit defensive effect on every unit that isn't Ascended Mareeta. The only way to reliably have it fully charged at the start of combat is to run Special Spiral, which prevents you from being able to run a Dodge skill in the B slot. This means that you aren't actually getting an extra stack of Dodge; you're just moving it from the B slot to the Special slot and lowering its effectiveness from Dodge 3 to Dodge 2.

On the contrary, Guard is actually weakening in power due to the fact that more units have been gaining effects that instantly charge their Special, and more units are now gaining Tempo effects.

Damage reduction stacking is only reliably usable on player-controlled teams. Players themselves don't typically need to deal with enemies stacking damage reduction. Units that self-stack damage reduction typically only reliably get up to 50-60% in the form of Dodge effects, which is still breakable with modern wall breakers and is easily breakable with fast attackers.

Firesweep chipping is also only reliably usable on player-controlled teams. Players themselves don't typically need to deal with enemies using Firesweep to chip against them, and the one game mode where it actually appears has the Healing Tower (and ladders) to counteract it.

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7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yen'fay costs Grails and Trait Fruits and doesn't have access to flier mobility. Arden costs Grails and has even worse mobility. Nowi has significantly lower stats and doesn't have flier mobility.

Archers aren't a problem on player phase.

You are trying to use Thea as a dual-phase unit with a focus on enemy phase. I see Thea as a player-phase unit with enemy-phase presence because that's what her movement type promotes.

No, needing to stay within 3 spaces of an ally is not a problem for player-phase units with 2 movement.

There is nothing she could do as a player phase unit that another unit cannot do better. She already is not ideal as a nuke due to being a melee unit. She also lacks Slaying to better synergize with Galeforce, as that is the main niche melee units have over ranged units. Even as a raw damage nuke, she completely lacks offensive effects to deal with even minor tanks with Guard and guaranteed follow-up, let alone modern bulky tanks with stacks of damage reduction on top. We also got Lyn: Ninja Friend Duo and Corrin: Nightfall Ninja Act for free, and they are much better options as nukes.

Azura: Vallite Songstress can also be guarantee summoned now, and she can boost the movement range of infantry and fliers, which makes positioning requirements a problem.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You should be.

A unit can have all the fancy effects they want, but if they don't have the stats to back them up, there's no point. A unit with high stats and no additional effects on their weapon can still function using only the effects on their passive skills and teammates, especially now that there are so many different effects you can stack from teammates. Henriette is the best example of this, as the only non-stat effect on her weapon is passive healing.

Vital Astra is a shit defensive effect on every unit that isn't Ascended Mareeta. The only way to reliably have it fully charged at the start of combat is to run Special Spiral, which prevents you from being able to run a Dodge skill in the B slot. This means that you aren't actually getting an extra stack of Dodge; you're just moving it from the B slot to the Special slot and lowering its effectiveness from Dodge 3 to Dodge 2.

On the contrary, Guard is actually weakening in power due to the fact that more units have been gaining effects that instantly charge their Special, and more units are now gaining Tempo effects.

Damage reduction stacking is only reliably usable on player-controlled teams. Players themselves don't typically need to deal with enemies stacking damage reduction. Units that self-stack damage reduction typically only reliably get up to 50-60% in the form of Dodge effects, which is still breakable with modern wall breakers and is easily breakable with fast attackers.

Firesweep chipping is also only reliably usable on player-controlled teams. Players themselves don't typically need to deal with enemies using Firesweep to chip against them, and the one game mode where it actually appears has the Healing Tower (and ladders) to counteract it.

A unit with just high stats and no effects will not function well as a nuke and will not survive as a tank. If super tanks and Save tanks are barely holding on with a bunch of effects crammed into their builds and supports, Thea is nowhere near being a top tier tank nor dual phase unit. As a nuke, Thea is completely uncompetitive. Save tanks for example do not need much merges to function well due to how stacked their effects are.

Vital Astra still contributes to bulk, and Guard's ability to mitigate that helps. Precharged Specials can be mitigated with Pulse Smoke, and it is still better to have Guard than not, as not all units have access to Tempo.

Armors that self stack damage reduction will get up 75% damage reduction from Hardy Bearing if not more. Infantry units with damage reduction Weapons can get at least 50% damage reduction from their Weapon and Spurn, and can further pad that with Spd Smoke and the occaisional Vital Astra. While the latter can by solved by just having higher Spd, the former strictly requires Guard and/or Null Special Charge to disrupt.

Firesweep makes players vulnerable to other nukes on the enemy team, especially Blazing nukes. Unless you are a super tank, 20 HP is a lot of health to lose.

Edited by XRay

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20 hours ago, XRay said:

Thea does not really have a niche that she can do better than other units though. Her effects suggests an enemy phase or dual phase build, but she lacks access to important skills that infantry and armor units got (infantry got Dodge and Null Follow-Up, armor got various Fighter skills). For player phase, ranged nukes are better since they are easier to use and are safer, and she lacks the right effects that other melee units got to Galeforce effectively or bust tanks.

For actual effects, Icy Maltet is just a glorified Guard Lance. Bonus buffs and bonus doubler are just more stats, and stats alone are not enough to set a unit apart. She does get lots of stats, but it is going to get outdated really fast.

Yes she does compare to her common peers also you just clearly downplaying and being narrow minded how effective she can be just because people aren’t putting her down being another 4* especially being a lance flyer…..we Thea fans got a W don’t ruin it for us…..

Edited by Mage Goddess Lysithea

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4 hours ago, Mage Goddess Lysithea said:

Yes she does compare to her common peers also you just clearly downplaying and being narrow minded how effective she can be just because people aren’t putting her down being another 4* especially being a lance flyer…..we Thea fans got a W don’t ruin it for us…..

I am not trying to ruin it for anyone. I am simply stating that Thea is not a good investment for the average player who got no interest in her, as she does not do anything another unit could not do better. If Thea is your favorite character, by all means invest in her, and she should serve you decently well.

Most of her lance flier peers also are not that great either. Off the top of my head, the only ones with a relevant niche is Valter and maybe Cordelia. The former got Slaying for Galeforce and recoil damage for Desperation and Wings of Mercy, and the latter got a glorified Brave Lance. Est and Catria are not really notable outside of Røkkr Sieges. That is about it for lance fliers.

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27 minutes ago, XRay said:

Valter

Valter. And his 59/42- offenses? That's the best you could come up with for a "relevant niche"? Sure, Slaying means he can Galeforce without needing to eat a counterattack, but first, he has to double, and second, he has to beat his opponent's Atk stat to activate Heavy Blade, which is kind of hard when his stats are so outdated and he's losing his Sacred Seal slot for Heavy Blade.

Meanwhile, Thea can cleanly two-round kill Fallen Edelgard with only rudimentary support (just standard +6 Bonuses) or one-round kill Edelgard if Edelgard doesn't have any Def Bonuses.

This is a perfect case of skill effects not being able to make up for bad stats and good stats being able to make up for a lack of skill effects.

 

For anyone curious,

Spoiler

I'm calculating with

+10+15 Thea [+Spd, +Atk] +6/6/6/6
Icy Maltet [unique]
[Assist]
[Special] / doesn't matter because it won't activate, but Ruptured Sky is obviously optimal in general
Surge Sparrow
Flow Refresh 3
Spd/Def Rein 3
Atk/Spd Solo 3

against

+10+10 Fallen Edelgard [+Atk, +Res] +6/6/6/6
Twin-Crest Power
[Assist]
Bonfire
Atk/Def Ideal 4
Armored Wall
Armored Stride 3
Mystic Boost 3

This leaves Edelgard with 3 HP and Thea with 23 HP before post-combat healing, which brings Edelgard to 16 HP and Thea to 33 HP. Finishing off Edelgard is trivial at this point (Thea deals 25 damage even after losing 5 Atk from Edelgard no longer being above 75% HP).

Running Atk/Spd Catch 4 on Thea is a one-round kill with (at least) 1 overkill if you have any debuff on Edelgard.

 

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7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Valter. And his 59/42- offenses? That's the best you could come up with for a "relevant niche"? Sure, Slaying means he can Galeforce without needing to eat a counterattack, but first, he has to double, and second, he has to beat his opponent's Atk stat to activate Heavy Blade, which is kind of hard when his stats are so outdated and he's losing his Sacred Seal slot for Heavy Blade.

Depending on the team composition, the player can run Thórr or Ninian: Frozen Heart, so Heavy Blade is not necessary. Stacking Spd is trivial in Aether Raids, and winning the Spd check in Arena is not too hard either if you are not using Duel skills.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Meanwhile, Thea can cleanly two-round kill Fallen Edelgard with only rudimentary support (just standard +6 Bonuses) or one-round kill Edelgard if Edelgard doesn't have any Def Bonuses.

This is a perfect case of skill effects not being able to make up for bad stats and good stats being able to make up for a lack of skill effects.

 

For anyone curious,

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm calculating with

+10+15 Thea [+Spd, +Atk] +6/6/6/6
Icy Maltet [unique]
[Assist]
[Special] / doesn't matter because it won't activate, but Ruptured Sky is obviously optimal in general
Surge Sparrow
Flow Refresh 3
Spd/Def Rein 3
Atk/Spd Solo 3

against

+10+10 Fallen Edelgard [+Atk, +Res] +6/6/6/6
Twin-Crest Power
[Assist]
Bonfire
Atk/Def Ideal 4
Armored Wall
Armored Stride 3
Mystic Boost 3

This leaves Edelgard with 3 HP and Thea with 23 HP before post-combat healing, which brings Edelgard to 16 HP and Thea to 33 HP. Finishing off Edelgard is trivial at this point (Thea deals 25 damage even after losing 5 Atk from Edelgard no longer being above 75% HP).

Running Atk/Spd Catch 4 on Thea is a one-round kill with (at least) 1 overkill if you have any debuff on Edelgard.

 

Not all Edelgard: Hegemon Husk run +Res and Mystic Boost. Quite a few run +Def and Atk/Def Solo as well, and those that do can counter kill Thea.

I will concede that an overwhelming amount of stats is a quality worthy of consideration. However, stats do not scale as well as effects, and my counter example above illustrates how easy it is for Edelgard: Hegemon Husk to come back out on top with an extra 15 points of stats due to the amount of effects she has. Thea can still shut those with Atk/Def Solo down, but Thea will need to stack Def all the way, losing 20 Spd in exchange for 23 Def, a far bigger redistibution of stats and more resource intensive too.

Or to put it another way, despite Valter with Cursed Lance having less total stats than Thea with Icy Maltet, Valter with the same set up can still kill Edelgard: Hegemon Husk with Ninian: Frozen Heart supporting him.

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6 hours ago, XRay said:

Not all Edelgard: Hegemon Husk run +Res and Mystic Boost. Quite a few run +Def and Atk/Def Solo as well, and those that do can counter kill Thea.

Thea misses the kill by only 6 damage against that build on the second round of combat, assuming Edelgard has +6 to all stats and no Penalties. Edelgard is only likely to have those Bonuses in the Arena, and only when her allies aren't dead. On the other hand, even if you somehow can't get rid of her Bonuses or apply a Def Penalty, Edelgard with less post-combat healing and no Res Asset can easily be finished off by another teammate (instead of dancing Thea).

Edelgard can also run Atk/Def Menace, but then she'll be without mobility and definitely end up as the last unit alive. And because of her immobility, it's easy enough to either get out of her Menace range entirely and then rush her or just let her get the Bonuses, but let a different unit take the Penalties.

 

6 hours ago, XRay said:

Thea can still shut those with Atk/Def Solo down, but Thea will need to stack Def all the way, losing 20 Spd in exchange for 23 Def, a far bigger redistibution of stats and more resource intensive too.

If you want a wall breaker Thea that absolutely won't die to Edelgard regardless of Edelgard's build, all you need to do is switch her skills out for Sturdy Surge and Pulse Smoke. That's 10 Spd and 3 Atk for 7 Def and Pulse Smoke.

But again, there's basically no real reason to do so since the chances that you'll need to fight a fully buffed Edelgard are extremely low, and Edelgard can't stack all three of Atk, Def, and Res at the same time. (But if you're still worried, running Pulse Smoke instead of Spd/Def Rein is a small enough sacrifice, and you don't need to swap out her A skill.)

 

6 hours ago, XRay said:

Or to put it another way, despite Valter with Cursed Lance having less total stats than Thea with Icy Maltet, Valter with the same set up can still kill Edelgard: Hegemon Husk with Ninian: Frozen Heart supporting him.

That's nice, but Thea doesn't need one of a small handful of support units and can work with any party composition.

And pretty much any unit with Null Follow-Up, Guard, and Ruptured Sky can kill Edelgard with Fallen Ninian support, granted their Atk and Def stats aren't complete garbage.

Thea doesn't even need all of those fancy skills from before to pull it off with Fallen Ninian support. Thea can kill Edelgard cleanly in a single round of combat with just Ruptured Sky, Swift Sparrow 2, Flow * 3, and the Atk/Spd Solo Sacred Seal.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Summer is on the horizon... but these refines are a little closer. No new weapons, and nothing for any 3*/4* pool units.

  • Picnnic Flora's Sæhrímnir - Grants Atk +3. Effective against Beast units. At start of combat, if unit's Res > foe's Res, reduces foe's Atk/Def by 50% of difference between stat during combat. (calculates reduction before combat, maximum penalty of -8) [Dagger 7] effect.
  • Fallen Berkut's Kriemhild - If a bow, dagger, magic, or staff foe initiates combat and unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, unit can counterattack regardless of foe's range and foe cannot make a follow-up attack, but after combat, if unit attacked, deals 20 damage to nearest ally.)
  • Naesala's Raven King Beak - Grants Spd +3. If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, deals damage = 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum bonus of +7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.) Standard Beast Flier transformation effect.
  • Ranulf's Covert Cat Fang - Grants Def +3. If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Def +3 to unit and allies within 2 spaces of unit during combat. Standard Beast Cav transformation effect.
  • Velouria's Wolfpup Fang - Grants Spd +3. At the start of Turn 1, grants special cooldown count -2 to unit and unit's support partner (if any). Standard Beast Infantry transformation effect.

Personally keeping an eye on Naesala and Velouria.
Flora could be a potent PP armor unit if she is given the right effects.
Kriemhild just needs to give Berkut more to work with against ranged enemies. I could see maybe a sort of Dragon's Wrath effect and blocking effects that guarantee enemy follow-up attacks.
Ranulf might like getting Spd boosts on top of the Atk and Def boosts.
Naesala's base effect has no reason not to be changed to adding damage = 20% of units Spd.
Velouria could gain an effect similar to Pent, reducing the special charge of her support ally if it is at its maximum value. Whether it totally overwrites the existing effect or is added in addition to it... I dunno.

Regardless of any predictions, all units will get additional stats. Picnic Flora could get Atk/Def/Res+, Berkut could inflict Atk/Def -5, Naesala is almost definitely Atk/Spd+, Ranulf hopefully gets more Atk/Spd/Def, and Velouria is sure to get Atk/Spd+ but Def+ as well would be nice.

Edited by Xenomata

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Hopes, predictions, and the like:

Picnic Flora: Saehrimnir

Base effect decreases opponent's Atk/Def equal to 50% of the difference between unit's and opponent's Res at start of combat if unit's Res is higher, maximum 8 points. Also permanent +3 Atk and effective damage against beasts.

The base effect is obviously going to be upgraded to 80% of the difference like all of the other effects of the same type. Being a Special Hero, the base effect is likely to get an additional stat boost, and ideally, it will be -6 Atk/Def on the opponent, as Flora isn't really in need of Spd.

Flora has Bold Fighter in her base kit, so it's unlikely she'll get a guaranteed follow-up on her weapon. The most meaningful effects to give her would be the offensive half of Null Follow-Up to follow-up prevention effects from units that she is unable to get a natural follow-up against and the offensive half of Trace to prevent Guard from blocking her Special.

Ideally, the obligatory stat boost should be another -6 Atk/Def on the opponent.

Fallen Berkut: Kriemhild

Base effect grants Distant Counter and prevents the opponent's follow-up attack if the opponent is a ranged unit, the opponent initiates combat, and there is at least one ally within 2 spaces. After combat, the nearest ally takes 20 damage with the same condition.

The current strongest Distant Counter weapon excluding beast armor weapons, which get the effect for free, is Nifl's Bite, which has two effects in addition to its permanent stat effect. All other recent Distant Counter weapons have only two effects or one effect with a permanent stat effect. Since previous refines for Distant Counter weapons granted a stat boosting effect on top of a skill effect back when contemporary Distant Counter weapons only received a skill effect at most, it's quite possible that Kriemhild will receive a stat effect and two or three skill effects on top of its existing effect.

For its existing effect, I can see the restriction that the opponent is a ranged unit being removed a slight possibility that the Unity condition is increased to 3 spaces.

Berkut has Warding Stance 4 in his base kit, so it's unlikely that Kriemhild will get Guard. With how strong ranged units have gotten and Berkut's relatively low natural Res, Berkut really wants to get some form of damage reduction, and I think this is likely to happen due to the weapon having Phantasm in Echoes, which halves damage from bows and magic.

His default Special skill is Reprisal, so he also wants some means of guaranteeing its activation. This could be either the Breath effect or a guaranteed follow-up. If it isn't a guaranteed follow-up it would still be nice to get a damage boost on the first attack in combat, like what Duma and Fallen Rhea have.

Ideally, the obligatory stat boost should be -6 Atk/Def on the opponent.

Naesala: Raven King Beak

Base effect deals damage equal to 70% of the difference between unit's and opponent's Spd if unit's Spd is higher, maximum 7 points. Also permanent +3 Spd. Has the standard beast flier transform effect.

His pirate version's weapon has the Slaying effect, the Desperation effect with a Solo condition, the offensive half of Null Follow-Up with a Solo condition, and the obligatory stat boost.

Naesala has Blazing Wind as his default Special in reference to having the Vortex skill in Path of Radiance, but has no means of reliably activating it, as he lacks the Slaying effect, has no access to Special Spiral, and does not have a reliable means of fully charging his Special before his first round of combat. If they want to lean into a Blazing Wind build, he'll need all three of those effects or some equivalent. I can see being transformed as a condition if he's going to be getting that many effects.

If they aren't going to focus his weapon around landing Blazing Wind, there's not much to go off of for a prediction since the weapon's base effect is just damage to make up for his low Atk stat. Naesala's stat spread is nothing special, and his other default skills are also rather generic. They could just be unoriginal and copy his pirate version like Tibarn did.

Plus the obligatory stat boost.

Ranulf: Covert Cat Fang

Base effect is Joint Drive Atk/Def for 3 points. Also permanent +3 Def. Has the standard beast cavalry transform effect.

Ranulf is basically Kaden, but only one quarter as good. Which is to say Ranulf is garbage.

I'm expecting the base effect to be upgraded in the same way that Kaden's weapon was. The stat boosts should be split into +5 Atk/Spd/Def for Ranulf with some condition and a separate Drive effect. The condition for the stat boosts to himself should ideally be better than Kaden's, as needing to remain within 3 spaces of an ally defeats the purpose of being cavalry.

Since Kaden is already way better than Ranulf at support, I hope Ranulf is more offensively oriented, but I have no idea what they want to do with him. Offensively, he's just flat-out worse than both New Year Lethe and Freyja, who are both stronger, faster, and generally bulkier than he is due to Dodge despite his higher Def. In fact, the only thing Ranulf has to distinguish himself from the other green beast cavalry is his Def stat, and even then, it's not particularly amazing.

His source material is also of no help because he has no default skills in both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn outside of his class skills.

Velouria: Wolfpup Fang

Base effect is Quickened Pulse for 2 points and the same effect on unit's ally support partner. Also permanent +3 Spd. Has the old beast infantry transform effect.

Velouria really just wants stats and the Slaying effect, though I doubt they'll give her the latter. As it is, she's already guaranteed to land Luna on her follow-up attack when initiating combat and on her first counterattack when the opponent initiates due to the upgraded beast infantry transform effect having Tempo built in.

Her default skills are focused more around enemy phase, though her stats are more suited for player phase. Preferably, they give her effects that work on both phases because there's no good reason to run her as an exclusively enemy-phase unit.

Although she has Luna as her default Special, it would be nice if she got Special charge rate +1 on her own attacks and the offensive half of Null Follow-Up in order to consistently land Aether when combined with Special Spiral in the B slot.

Velouria has Goody Basket as her personal skill in Fates, and if they want to reference it, I can see them giving her the Surge effect in order to tie in with her focus on Special activations. And because Renewal is boring.

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On 6/1/2022 at 4:02 AM, Xenomata said:

Naesala's base effect has no reason not to be changed to adding damage = 20% of units Spd.

I can see it being 15% because he is a free to play grail unit, but overall... yeah, I except it to happen (the fixed damage based on unit's Spd and not by comparing unit's Spd with foe's Spd).

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This isn't that major, but it's also worth mentioning.

Idunn's refined Demonic Breath lost the trigger condition of "Penalties inflicted on unit" when being refined, in favor of "Foe initiates combat" and "Units HP is less than 100%."

After the update, the refined breath will retain the penalty condition while keeping both of the original conditions, giving Idunn 3 separate triggers for her all stat +4/penalty neutralization effect.

This probably isn't going to cause any major issues going forward, considering most current Effect Triggers already play heavily into the units playstyle and this is likely just a consistency error that wasn't caught on release, but... you know, it is neat all things considered. 

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It seems strange that they'd adjust Demonic Breath's effect considering how minor the change is. The only difference is that it now activates on player phase when Idunn is at full health and has a Penalty. Perhaps it's because the new condition this time didn't fully overlap the old condition, but it still seems strange that this was important enough to warrant a change.

If I recall correctly, the only time we've had a change to a skill's effect was to fix a bug with Prayer Wheel, which changed the skill effect to match the bugged version instead of the originally intended effect as opposed to being a simple bug fix, and the only other time we've had a major change to a unit's skills outside of standard update mechanics was when Fjorm was given Mirror Stance because Leiptr's refine ended up conflicting with the Atk/Def Unity that she gained for her remix. Both of these were far more meaningful changes and were on units of a more premium summoning type.

(Meanwhile, we're still stuck with a Berserk Armads refine that actively hinders it.)

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

(Meanwhile, we're still stuck with a Berserk Armads refine that actively hinders it.)

Or we can just get rid of Wrath's HP condition. Unconditional Time's Pulse and +10 damage is hardly exciting when compared to 50%+ damage reduction that lots of armors now get.

Edited by XRay

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5 minutes ago, XRay said:

Or we can just get rid of Wrath's HP condition. Unconditional Time's Pulse and +10 damage is hardly exciting when compared to 50%+ damage reduction that lots of armors now get.

I can see the appeal of a relevant alternative to Wrath, but Wrath without a condition wouldn't be Wrath anymore.

Edited by Othin

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1 minute ago, Othin said:

I can see the appeal of a relevant alternative to Wrath, but Wrath without an HP condition wouldn't be Wrath anymore.

As long as the beneficial mechanics are still there, the name does not really matter to me.

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48 minutes ago, XRay said:

Or we can just get rid of Wrath's HP condition. Unconditional Time's Pulse and +10 damage is hardly exciting when compared to 50%+ damage reduction that lots of armors now get.

Meanwhile, we're still stuck with a Berserk Armads refine that actively hinders it.

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Early patch today brings a set of pretty well-received refines. Even as someone who's avoided investing in beast units/teams, I think +10ing Naesala immediately is a no-brainer.

Might go Velouria too if I ever figure out who to pair her up with.

Edited by Humanoid

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https://preview.redd.it/cu7z1awwg3491.png?width=962&auto=webp&s=67e27d3083069b50c81a29187eedcff72375a3ec
@Humanoid If you have Fallen Lilith, she wouldn't be a bad option at all: they both provide effects to their support partners (adding up to Special Charge Count -2 at turn 1, Atk/Spd +6 field buff, ignoring enemy bonuses, and the NFU bonus effect) and Lilith can even teleport near Velouria.

Edited by Xenomata

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Thoughts from don't care to care a lot:

  • Saehrimnir: Well... can't say I wasn't expecting defensive effects. I'm not even that disappointed, I just wish they remembered the days of Player Phase armor units... when was the last time Bold Fighter was even on a unit where it wasn't immediately replaced?
  • Covert Cat Fang: Uh... couldn't help but notice they totally ignored the support effects. Oh wait nevermind, they increased the bonuses given and the range by +1.
    Anyway, he gets all stat +8, unitNFU, and true damage based on the number of allies nearby (up to +15), which is overall good.
  • Kriemhild: The base effect is just straightup Distant Counter if near an ally, and the refine is stupidly simple... but then it still does the job it needs to do. Plus this frees up the B/SS slots for other skills. It's just a simple refine all things considered
  • Wolfpup Fang: Atk/Spd +10 when all conditions are met. That's cool and all, but the thing I was hoping for was Velouria providing more support to her ally, and... well, they delivered. Atk/Spd buffs, Enemy buff ignoring, and the continued existence of the Special Charge Count at the start of battle makes Veloria solid as a support ally.
  • Raven King Beak: So @Diovani Bressan was right about it only being 15% Spd, but when Naesala can go well over 60 Spd if invested in, that's not the biggest deal out there. He also gets playerNFU and Flashing Blade effects if his Spd is higher, which is great. Might not have amazing synergy with Galeforce considering he's still a bit of a noodle when taking hits and no Slaying effect on his base weapon, but it's certainly easier to do than before.

Ugh... all these great refines for speedy units, but I've long ago run out of sacred seals with Spd-boosting effects for the purpose of Arena Assault... it's pretty much just the small stat boosters left.

Edited by Xenomata

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Flora: Signature Dish got essentially the same Refine as Felicia: Off the Menu. It is alright overall and I think it is slightly better since all her effects are based on just a Res check, whereas Felicia also wants to win that Spd check to make use of her Null Follow-Up effect on top of trying to win that Res check for damage reduction.

I think Ranulf is meant to be used in a Save team due to positioning requirements and he got some minor support utility, and he can apply damage on player phase safely with Windsweep or Watersweep. I do not think he is all that great as Atk/Def+4 is peanuts compared to damage reduction, and while he does have more damage output than Flayn, I do not think it is necessary since Save tanks should deal enough damage on enemy phase where player phase damage is not really necessary in most cases.

Berkut: Purgatorial Prince got dual phase guaranteed follow-up, which should make him more threatening on defense. I do not think he is that great in player hands unless you really know what you are doing, but he seems solid on defense to help trigger Wings of Mercy.

Naesala is alright. For Galeforce, you probably want Impact-Guard. Sweep is also an option so he can chip bulky tanks.

Velouria is alright too, and she can Galeforce better now.

— — — — — — —

Ranulf feels really iffy to me since I do not think his role is really that necessary, but the rest are all decent. I do not think it is worth it to chase after and Refine Flora: Signature Dish and Berkut: Purgatorial Prince since they got insane competition or are kind of niche. I think Velouria is good if you are using beast and/or Galeforce teams a lot, but she is not a must have either. I think Naesala is probably the best one to Refine if you really want to spend some Dew since he can Galeforce or Sweep, so he is more flexible.

I think I will give Flora: Signature Dish a Refine since I gave her sister one; should make Limited Hero Battles with Fates a bit easier, especially with one or two Kadens for support.

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

I just wish they remembered the days of Player Phase armor units... when was the last time Bold Fighter was even on a unit where it wasn't immediately replaced?

Faye: Drawn Heartstring just needs Firesweep Bow, Reposition, and Armor Boots, and she is good to go for Arena Assault.

Everyone else though, yeah, I just take off their Bold Fighter and run something else.

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Ugh... all these great refines for speedy units, but I've long ago run out of sacred seals with Spd-boosting effects for the purpose of Arena Assault... it's pretty much just the small stat boosters left.

You can lock teams to free up a little more Seals. Super and save tank teams can handle most Arena Assault defense teams, and since their team composition does not change, you can lock them and then reassign their Sacred Seals somewhere else.

Edited by XRay

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Picnic Flora: Saehrimnir

Base effect is upgraded to use 80% of the difference between unit's and opponent's Res at the start of combat instead of 50% (maximum 8), and now also affects Atk/Spd/Def instead of Atk/Def. Also grants +4 to all stats if unit's HP is 25% or higher. All other effects are unchanged.

Refine effect grants the following if unit is within 3 spaces of an ally:

  • +4 to all stats
  • 30% damage reduction on opponent's first attack if unit's Res is at least 1 higher than opponent's Res
  • Follow-up prevention if unit's Res is at least 7 higher than opponent's Res

Despite the fact that Flora is relatively slow, they decided to give her Spd boosts like Selkie and Picnic Felicia before her. With the maximum +16 Spd, Flora now reaches 41 Spd with Dragonflowers before Asset and merges. I'm not really sure if it's actually worth building for Spd, though, since her Spd isn't high enough to compete with actual fast units, making Bold Fighter still a better option than Special Fighter or Daring Fighter.

I have fewer problems with Flora than with Selkie and Felicia before her because Flora has an actual Atk stat and has higher visible Res than the other two. +8 to all stats with trivial conditions on a unit with as optimized of a stat spread as Flora is kind of ridiculous, and that's even before the out-of-combat Res comparison.

She is stuck in the awkward situation where the best skill to boost her in-combat Res comparison outside to gain follow-up prevention outside of Aether Raids is Mirror Impact, which already gives her follow-up prevention. The next best is Atk/Res Ideal, which also functions on enemy phase.

Fallen Berkut: Kriemhild

Base effect is upgraded to remove the enemy weapon type restriction and extend the condition to if there is an ally within 3 spaces instead of 2 spaces.

Refine effect is -5 Atk/Def to the opponent and a guaranteed follow-up, both effects with a Stance condition or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher.

Berkut ends up with +4/+1/+3/+3/+1 over Zeke in addition to follow-up prevention on enemy phase at the cost of killing his allies. Not much else to say. He's a strictly better Zeke if you ignore the fact that he kills his allies, which can either be a good or bad thing depending on your team composition.

I would have liked if he also got damage reduction on the opponent's first attack, though.

Naesala: Raven King Beak

Base effect is replaced with +5 Atk/Spd and additional damage equal to 15% of unit's Spd, both effects with a Blow condition or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher. The permanent +3 Spd and transform effect are unchanged.

Refine effect grants the following if unit is transformed or if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher:

  • +5 Atk/Spd
  • Flashing Blade 3
  • The offensive half of Null Follow-Up if unit's Spd is at least 6 higher than opponent's Spd

Naesala ends up with -2/+2 offenses plus an additional +11~12 damage compared to his pirate version. He gains a Special charge rate boost, but looses the Desperation effect.

The Special charge rate boost allows him to run Galeforce, but without the Slaying effect, he needs to take a counterattack to activate it, which can be a problem due to his low bulk. Additionally, he can't run Desperation because, while it fixes his bulk, it blocks the opponent's counterattack, which defeats the purpose.

He's probably better off just spamming Glimmer or Moonbow with Desperation to keep him alive. Yes, Glimmer is a viable option because it deals a free 5~6 damage due to his weapon's additional damage effect, which allows Glimmer to outdamage Moonbow until the opponent's Def reaches the high 50's if Naesala is fully invested. Glimmer hits harder against opponents with low Def that rely on non-Spd-based percentage damage reduction (Spd-based percentage damage reduction is presumably nullified by Naesala's high Spd), whereas Moonbow hits harder against opponents with very high Def.

Ranulf: Covert Cat Fang

Base effect is replaced with +4 to all stats with a Blow condition or if there is an ally within 3 spaces and +4 Atk/Def to allies within 3 spaces. The permanent +3 Def and transform effect are unchanged.

Refine effect grants +4 to all stats, additional damage equal to 5 times the number of allies within 3 spaces (maximum 15), and the offensive half of Null Follow-Up, all effects if HP is 25% or higher.

Ranulf is significantly better than before, gaining a consistent +8 to all stats. This brings him up to +1/-1 offenses compared to Freyja and +3/+0 offenses compared to New Year Lethe before accounting for Ranulf's potential +15 damage, Freyja's Binding Necklace granting a potential +16 to all stats, and Lethe's potential +7 damage.

If you ignore color, Ranulf is more comparable to Summer Freyja, as both of them have the offensive half of Null Follow-Up, though Ranulf falls quite a bit behind Summer Freyja, having -5/-6 offenses before accounting for his additional damage and Binding Necklace.

While Ranulf's primary advantage over his competitors is his massive potential +15 additional damage, it's heavily tempered by the fact that it requires 3 allies within 3 spaces to get the full effect, which can be difficult to achieve outside of specific game modes. He'll feel right at home in Pawns of Loki, though.

Velouria: Wolfpup Fang

Base effect is upgraded with an additional +5 Atk/Spd with a Blow-or-Unity condition. The old beast infantry transform effect is upgraded to the new beast infantry transform effect. All other effects are unchanged.

Refine effect is:

  • Grants +6 Atk/Spd and Dull All as Bonuses to unit and unit's support partner if the support partner is within 3 spaces at the start of the turn.
  • Grants +5 Atk/Spd if unit is transformed or if the opponent's HP is 75% or higher.

Without a support partner, Velouria now has +3/+3 offenses over Desert Nailah and -5/+6 offenses compared to Fallen Muarim. Velouria has -2 Special cooldown at the start of the first turn and gains a free +6 Atk/Spd visible buff and Dull All if she has a support partner. Nailah has the Slaying effect, Null Follow-Up, and Canto. Muarim inflicts -6 to all stats to all enemies within 4 spaces and has Dull All. Despite her Spd advantage, it's hard to say Velouria really has an edge over the others due to her weaker non-stat effects.

That said, Velouria's primary advantage over other units was her ability to charge another unit's Special, and that hasn't changed. The difference is that now she has combat effects on her weapon, which allows her to actually keep up in combat instead of being just a support unit with passable combat performance.

 

Overall thoughts:

While all of the refines this time around are good, none of them are must-haves for me.

I'll probably be grabbing Berkut's since I have him merged higher than Zeke, even if it does require completely reworking his skills. I might grab Velouria's because she's already +10, though I don't really need another infantry beast at the moment. Ranulf's looks particularly good if I ever actually get around to using beasts in Pawns of Loki. Naesala's is good, but I don't really use him. I'd grab Flora's refine immediately if I actually had her leveled, but she's not.

For people that are not me, Naesala's refine definitely looks worth getting, especially if you actually use him and even more especially if you grabbed him from Hall of Forms with good skills. (Also if you can stand the fact that his face is all wrong.) Flora's, Berkut's, and Velouria's are also worth getting if you use the units with any regularity or need a good unit for their respective roles. Ranulf's feels like the weakest of the bunch, but that's more because of how strong his competition is. Still good for Pawns of Loki or if you don't have his competition.

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This is extraordinarily fortunate for me because I already have Naesala as a 10+ unit, haha. That's an easy choice for me, definitely spending the resources for his refine.

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