General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Diovani Bressan]

1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

I am irrationally upset about how there isn't a single 4-star demote unit getting a weapon refine. For fuck's sake, they arguably need more help than the 5-stars. It's going to take forever to get through the few demotes we have if they keep on putting off units like Bantu and Tanya and Ross.

4-star units follow the same order as the 5-stars. Someone like Bantu will get a refinement around the same time a the others from his banner (Nagi, Sirius and Norne, who is also a 4-star). The only difference is that they limit them for one 4-star hero per refinement, which is kinda lame, especially considering that around that time we were getting two demotes per new heroes banner.

[Sunwoo]

It is 100% lame indeed. They really should consider giving two 3-4 star demotes a weapon refine on certain months. However, the state of weapon refines in itself is kind of ridiculous. Characters who needed the most help are yet again in need of the most help because they got the worst refines. Characters who would still be good without refines are now getting more ridiculously busted because they're getting all sorts of nonsense effects on their refines. Should we really be refining CYL4 when characters like Takumi, Leo, and Anna were never good even when they first got theirs? Do we really need to refine CYL5 next year when their base weapons' effects are already better than all year 1 units put together?

While rearmed heroes could be one solution to this problem, there are still a lot of caveats that come with that so they're probably not a one-size-fits-all solution.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

After all, Legendary Caeda's Wing-Lifted Spear (despite its name in English, it's actually just a prefixed Wing Spear) doesn't have all of the effective damage against weapon types that Feather Sword and Dolphin-Dive Axe have.

Oh of course it doesn't deal effective damage in Valentia. I'm just tossing around ideas that would be conceptually fitting. Because it doesn't actually do anything in Valentia. It's a pretty basic spell. Though I agree some kind of warping effect makes a lot of sense.

[Ice Dragon]

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh of course it doesn't deal effective damage in Valentia. I'm just tossing around ideas that would be conceptually fitting. Because it doesn't actually do anything in Valentia. It's a pretty basic spell. Though I agree some kind of warping effect makes a lot of sense.

I was mostly just bringing attention to the fact that even though Heroes gives out weapon effects mostly for gameplay reasons rather than to be faithful to the source material, effective damage is one of the few things it typically keeps intact.

 

And while effective damage against everything would be interesting, it'd really just be easier to make the effect be "increases damage by 50% of unit's Atk". In both Gaiden and Echoes, Death is just a weapon with high damage and low accuracy, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just leaned into the "high damage" part and gave it some form of boost to Atk or damage (just not as high as 50% of the user's Atk).

[Xenomata]

Dangit my Canto prediction was off.

My thoughts:
 

Spoiler

 

 

• Delthea is getting a total of +9 all stat plus inflicting a minimum penalty of -3 to the enemy Spd/Res as long as she has at least a 2-cooldown special equipped (doesn't seem worth it to go higher than 3 cooldown just to get a slightly higher penalty) plus enemy bonus nullification to Spd/Res (which just makes this look like Lull Spd/Res+)
  The biggest addition she got was the Grimoire warp effect (do we have a better name for that yet?), giving her a much wider area of attack when given proper positioning of allies. The post-combat damage is still there, so she can potentially get Brazens and Desperation setup in just one combat. I feel like there's still better Blue Tome Inf out there, but as a free unit this is still a very good refine, especially considering the Grimoire Warp is on a free unit.
• All stat +9, unitNFU, unitTempo, Windsweep, and even a tacked on Slaying effect. Give her Watersweep (5* Soren fodder) and she basically becomes a Firesweep unit. Could possibly be frightening if built that way, may even be a possible Save armor killer if it weren't for Ascended Fjorm.
• Right now Fallen Tiki's Solitary Dream only gives +4 all stat, so on her own Tiki only gets an extra +4 from bonuses that aren't ignored. The mixed nature of the [Bonus] effect works with the Armored Stride effect on SD, or can play into a more defensive build.
  ...it's technically a good refine, but we've seen Fallen units get far better. I blame the DC weapon on that...
• ...interesting path they took with Yarne. Give him +10 Atk and Spd, a damage addition based on 10% of his Spd (which with a base of 33 really isn't that high), and a guaranteed follow-up attack when furry. You'd think they would give him some damage reduction on the enemies first attack, or at least Spectrum boosts. But like this he's just better at killing, not at surviving.
• Lethe is getting 10/10/4/4 total stats, unitNFU, Wo Dao effect (when was the last time THAT came up...), accelerated special charge, and Guard as long as she is transformed. Her defenses aren't amazing, but they should still let her take one hit to get Desperation ready, then she can launch powered-up Moonbows every combat, assuming she can follow-up (which I think she can most of the time)

So... nothing bad, but nothing absolutely mind-blowing. Man, when there's no remixes going on the hype for these things really goes down...

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Xenomata

[Ice Dragon]

I wish the update were tomorrow night instead so that I could relax tonight. But it's here, so I'm doing this.

Lethe: Brazen Cat Fang

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Spd
• With Blow-or-Solo condition (previously Solo condition):
  • +6 Atk/Spd
  • The offensive half of Null Follow-Up (new)
  • +10 damage when Special activates (new)
• Standard transform condition and cavalry transform effect

Refine effect:

• If HP is 25% or higher:
  • +4 to all stats
  • +1 Special charge rate
  • If transformed:
    • Guard effect

Lethe's base kit says that she's intended to tank the opponent's counterattack and follow-up with a Special activation. This weapon does exactly that, and is really close to my prediction because of it. She effectively gets Flow Guard, Special Fighter, and the Wo Dao effect, which is great because she doesn't have access to an equivalent to any of those skill effects normally.

This lets her run Moonbow (or Glimmer) and guarantee that her Special lands on her follow-up if the opponent can counterattack and doesn't have both Guard and the defensive half of Tempo. Alternatively, if the opponent has neither Guard nor Tempo, she can run Astra or Galeforce.

The only downside to using Lethe is the fact she isn't particularly bulky, having only 30 base Def with max Dragonflowers and only a +4 boost from her weapon. Guard is nice, but she'll still get worn down after a few rounds of combat and is still vulnerable to Specials that are pre-charged and opponents with the offensive half of Tempo.

Fallen Delthea: Death

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Res
• +5 to all stats (previously +4)
• Reduces opponent's Spd/Res by [unit's maximum Special cooldown + 1], minimum 1 (new)
• Nullifies opponent's Bonuses to Spd/Res (new)
• If unit attacked, unit takes 4 damage after combat

Refine effect:

• Grimoire teleportation
• If opponent's HP is 75% or higher:
  • +4 to all stats

As expected, Delthea teleports.

Other than that, she now gets a minimum of +12/12/9/12 when running a 2-cooldown Special (including the visible Res) and nullifies the opponent's Bonuses to Spd/Res.

Her competition for a teleporting blue tome infantry is Legendary Byleth, who has -6/+1 offenses with max Dragonflowers and a weaker teleportation effect in exchange for the Slaying effect and a stronger-than-usual self-buff (+7 instead of +6). But since Delthea actively kills herself, she is unable to get the second stack of stats from Ideal after the first round of combat, whereas Byleth can trade the ability to nullify the opponent's Bonuses for Sweep.

Even though Byleth is the better unit, it's still impressive that Delthea can even be compared to her and not lose completely.

Summer Lyn: Deep-Blue Bow

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Spd
• Effective damage against armors
• With Blow condition or if opponent's HP is 75% or higher (previously 100%):
  • +4 to all stats
  • The offensive half of Null Follow-Up (new)
  • The offensive half of Tempo (new)
• Bow common effect

Refine effect:

• Slaying effect
• If HP is 25% or higher:
  • +4 to all stats
  • If opponent is melee-ranged and unit's Spd is at least 5 higher than the opponent's:
    • Opponent cannot counterattack

It's reassuring to know that the two most straightforward units in this batch got almost exactly the refines I hoped for because that means the designers actually know what these units' roles are and what they're missing in order to perform those roles.

Lyn still can't use Deadeye properly without support to charge her Special, but she can at least now guarantee Ruptured Sky, so it's not too bad.

Other than that, she literally got everything else she needed for wall breaking: Null Follow-Up, Tempo, and Sweep.

That said, Lyn's Atk is still not particularly great, and getting +8 from her weapon is not enough for her to challenge Duo Hinoka, who not only has 7 more base Atk with max Dragonflowers, but also has a weapon with +9 Atk and targets the lower defensive stat. So while Lyn does have all of the skill effects for wall breaking, she's probably better as a general-use unit due to her higher Spd and her ability to Sweep opponents, even if she can't kill them outright.

Yarne: Bunny Fang

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Spd
• Effective damage against cavalry
• If unit's HP is 90% or lower after combat (previously 75%):
  • -2 to Special cooldown
• With Solo condition or if HP is 90% or lower:
  • +5 Atk/Spd (new)
• Standard transform condition and cavalry transform effect

Refine effect:

• If opponent's HP is 50% or higher:
  • +5 Atk/Spd
  • Boosts damage by 10% of Spd (includes AoE Specials)
  • If transformed:
    • Guaranteed follow-up

I'm confused. Yarne still has no effect on his weapon to keep him alive after his HP drops below 90%, which means he's stuck running Desperation in his B slot instead of something more interesting like his default Escape Route.

I guess you could also run him with Blazing Wind + Life and Death 4 + Heavy Blade 3 and use his first round of combat to take damage.

Fallen Tiki: Razing Breath

Base effect is unchanged:

• Effective damage against dragons
• Distant Counter
• Dragon common effect

Refine effect:

• If HP is 25% or higher:
  • +4 to all stats
  • Bonus Doubler
  • If Bonus is active:
    • With Blow condition:
      • Guaranteed follow-up
    • With Stance condition:
      • Prevents opponent's follow-up

So Tiki's weapon now effectively gives her +8 to all stats as long as her Bonuses aren't nullified, a guaranteed follow-up on player phase, and follow-up prevention on enemy phase. That's better than nothing, I suppose, but her competition is still Fallen Edelgard.

For comparison, Tiki with an Atk Asset has +4/+0/+33/+0/-4 compared to Edelgard with an Atk Asset when Tiki has Bonuses from Solitary Dream and Edelgard has no Bonuses, both units with max Dragonflowers. However, Edelgard's B skill has both Special Fighter and damage reduction built in, whereas Tiki has to pick one or the other in that slot. Edelgard's weapon also has self-healing after combat, which allows her to reliably get the second stack of stats from Ideal, whereas Tiki can only reliably get one stack.

Additionally, Tiki loses -8 to any stat that has its Bonus nullified, and while Lull skills are becoming less common due to an increase in the number of alternative skills in the B slot, they're still used often enough because they're easier to acquire (and Valentine Lucina shuts stat Bonuses down entirely).

It also doesn't help that Tiki is stuck with the awful selection of Special skills that dragons have access to, which prevents her from running Galeforce for scoring. If she runs Dragon Wall instead of Special Fighter, she's stuck with either the largely non-functional Aether or the extremely weak Blue Flame due to its conditional damage conflicting with Solitary Dream.

At the very least, she can hope that Legendary Eliwood's likely remix next month will fix some of her problems.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

Lyn: Lady of the Beach got the best Refine in my opinion with Null Follow-Up, Tempo, Slaying, and most importantly Sweep. She can also add Windsweep to go after bow and dagger foes, or Watersweep for tome and staff foes.

Delthea: Tatarrah's Puppet is pretty plain with just a bunch of stat boosts and buff nullification. There is warping too, which I guess she can use to get behind the front lines when she is on defense depending on her positioning.

Tiki: Torpid Dragon feels pretty pathetic. She gets some stats and conditional guaranteed follow-up or follow-up prevention. If they are going to give her a bunch of stats and follow-up effects, at least give her another stack of Bonus Doubler by granting it as a status effect, and replace the dumb conditional crap with omnibreaker.

I wish they did more to utilize Yarne's Galeforce, like adding Slaying to the Weapon. True damage and guaranteed follow-up are not bad, but I would trade the former for Slaying. I would also throw in Desperation for free.

Lethe sounds alright. She got Null Follow-Up, Special damage, and Special Fighter. I think I would run Desperation or Sweep on B. If you really want her to take a hit, I guess something like Surge Sparrow-Mystic Boost would be good for additional healing.

[Xenomata]

The first Duo Hero introduced in the game is getting his and her refine!
...and then some other guys are too.

• Conjurer Curios, for Sword Armor Hector w/Lilina: Dressed-Up Duo (Effective against armored foes. Grants Atk+3. If it is an odd-numbered turn or if foe's HP < 100% at start of combat grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit during combat.
• Ardent Durandal will be refined alongside the remix of Sword Cavalry Eliwood: Blazing Knight (Grants Atk+3. At start of turn, grants [Bonus Doubler] to ally with the highest Atk.
• Lance of Heroics is a new weapon being given to Lance Flier Cynthia: Hero Chaser (Firesweep Lance: Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks.
• Hunting Blade, for Blue Dagger Flier Petra: Princess of Brigid (Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). Effective against beast foes. At start of combat, if unit's Atk/Spd/Def/Res < that of an ally within 2 spaces, grants +5 to unit's corresponding stat during combat. Calculates each stat bonus independently. Effect:【Dagger ７】
• Snide Bow is a new weapon for Green Bow Cavalry Python: Apathetic Archer (Short Bow: Effective against flying foes. Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.
• Chaos Manifest will be refined for the remix of Green Tome Flier Yune: Chaos Goddess (Grants Res. +3. If a penalty inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threathen and/or a a negative status effect (preventing counterattacks or restricting movement) is active on foe, grants Atk+6 during combat and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.
• Savage Breath is being refined for Colorless Manakete Corrin: Wailing Soul (Grants Atk+3. Grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+X (Calculates X based on number of allies withing 2 spaces of unit:0 allies grants +6; 1 ally grants +4; 2 allies grants +2; ≥ 3 allies grants +0.) If foe's range = 2, calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

Hector is the first Duo unit to receive a refine (wow, they're seriously old enough now to warrant it... I still remember their reveal being a pretty big deal at the time), so one question I'm curious to see answered is if the refine will at all take into account their Duo Skill (Deals 20 damage to foes within 3 columns centered on unit.) Otherwise the only refines I'm paying attention to are Yune (+10 merge unit) and Cynthia (grail unit, could become +10 merge if the refine is good)

Edited November 1, 2022 by Xenomata

[DefyingFates]

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Conjurer Curios, for Sword Armor Hector w/Lilina: Dressed-Up Duo (Effective against armored foes. Grants Atk+3. If it is an odd-numbered turn or if foe's HP < 100% at start of combat grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to unit during combat.

Helbindi also had a turn-specific gimmick in his weapon, which the refine changed to working either on odd-turns OR based on nearby allies, so I imagine Hector will get something similar. As cool as it would be to see Duo skill updates, I imagine we'd have heard about it if he was getting that 😕

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Lance of Heroics is a new weapon being given to Lance Flier Cynthia: Hero Chaser (Firesweep Lance: Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks.

Sumia got a lance with Canto (2) and some other warping stuff IIRC, so I imagine Cynthia will get at least the Canto. As you say, she could be a fun merge project if the refine is good!

3 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Savage Breath is being refined for Colorless Manakete Corrin: Wailing Soul (Grants Atk+3. Grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+X (Calculates X based on number of allies withing 2 spaces of unit:0 allies grants +6; 1 ally grants +4; 2 allies grants +2; ≥ 3 allies grants +0.) If foe's range = 2, calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

I've never used Petra despite having two of her (so can't judge), but I used Corrin for a bit when she came out. Maybe she could be updated to get the full bonus as long as she's not adjacent to someone, like Shinon?

Eliwood's Remix looks really fun for a support unit and thankfully the Remix banners have sparks so it wouldn't be too difficult to get him either. I do want to see who's on the next NH banner though, especially if we get another Rearmed Hero.

[Naoshi]

[Diovani Bressan]

4 hours ago, Xenomata said:

• Lance of Heroics is a new weapon being given to Lance Flier Cynthia: Hero Chaser (Firesweep Lance: Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks.

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

Sumia got a lance with Canto (2) and some other warping stuff IIRC, so I imagine Cynthia will get at least the Canto. As you say, she could be a fun merge project if the refine is good!

Considering she has a Firesweep Lance, they could use that as a base. I hope they dont do like Soleil, and give her the Firesweep effect. Give her a conditional sweep, that allow her to be able to counterattack in enemy phase.

[Ice Dragon]

Well, it looks like they're going to keep trucking along with Special Heroes instead of letting regular units catch up. On the one hand, it'll be nice to see Winter Sothis get a refine sooner rather than later, but on the other hand, I'd like to see the rest of Book III get a refine first. There's still a chance, I guess, since they haven't actually started on Book IV Special Hero refines yet, but Winter Sothis or Duo Marth getting a refine at the same time as their banner rerun is a bit too fitting in terms of timing, though there's no way for them to actually keep that up outside of this one coincidence.

Translation notes:

Lance of Heroics is "正義の直槍" (seigi no chokusō), "Straight Lance of Justice". "直" (choku) translates as "straight" or "upright" in both the literal, physical sense and in the figurative sense of being honest or straightforward.

Snide Bow is "冷笑の遊弓" (reishō no yūkyū), "Amusement Bow of Derision". "冷笑" (reishō) can be translated as "derision", "sneer", or literally as "cold smile".

 

Cynthia: Lance of Heroics

Currently has Firesweep Lance.

I'm expecting Cynthia to follow Sumia's lead and not Soliel's and Roderick's.

Wings of Mercy makes sense thematically, and I'd expect it to get Flower Lance's boosted version that activates at 80% HP instead of 50% HP. Canto (2) like Flower Lance would be nice, but it would be cool to get one of the novel Canto variants, like Canto (Ally 2) or Canto (Recall).

Whether or not it'll have the Firesweep effect is probably a coin toss, but it is a viable defensive effect to set her apart from the horde of other fast lance fliers, so I wouldn't count it out.

Python: Snide Bow

Currently has Short Bow.

Fuck if I know. Every bow cavalry in the game that isn't colorless is green, so hopefully whatever he gets will set him apart from everyone else. And his base kit gives absolutely no hints outside of being an offensive unit, which is already obvious.

Duo Hector: Conjurer Curios

Base effect is:

• Effective damage against armor
• Permanent +3 Atk
• If it is an odd-numbered turn or opponent's HP is 99% or lower:
  • +4 to all stats in combat

Unlike the other weapons that grant effects based on turn number, Conjurer Curios already has an alternate condition (that is easy to meet with Hector's Duo skill), so I don't think the condition will be changed.

Honestly, I get the feeling that they'll just give the refine something similar to all of the other recent weapons and refines for armored units. Lots of stats. Damage reduction. Something related to follow-ups. Guard. Penalty nullification. Passive healing. The usual stuff.

Maybe there will be something like Woeful Upheaval's effect based on the amount of HP the opponent has lost.

Legendary Eliwood: Ardent Durandal

Base effect is:

• Permanent +3 Atk
• At start of turn, grants Bonus Doubler to ally (excluding unit) with highest Atk

Vision of Arcadia is being upgraded to also apply its effects to Eliwood himself, so it's likely that Ardent Durandal will also apply Bonus Doubler to himself. Additionally, since Vision of Arcadia II also grants Canto (1), it's unlikely Ardent Durandal will get Canto, even though Canto (1) is below average for a cavalry unit with Canto.

Eliwood is also getting Flow Refresh with his remix, so it's possible that Ardent Durandal will get Guard to make up for not getting the generally superior Flow Guard.

It looks like they're trying to make Eliwood function both as a combat unit on top of his original role as a support unit. He might get some form of damage reduction, like most other fast melee cavalry, but it's also entirely possible that he'll rely entirely on his Def stat since he's getting a bunch of Def from Bonus Doubler and Vision of Arcadia II and healing from Flow Refresh. I can also see him doing the new thing of inflicting +1 Special cooldown on the opponent at the start of combat as his primary defensive effect, especially if he Ardent Durandal gets Guard.

Given that Vision of Arcadia II is granting only Atk, Spd, and Def, it's quite likely that his obligatory stat boosts will also skip Res. Unlike his base version, he's not supposed to be fighting dragons, after all.

Petra: Hunting Blade

Base effect is:

• Effective damage against beasts
• Slaying effect
• At start of combat, for each of Atk/Spd/Def/Res, if there is at least one ally with that stat higher than unit's within 2 spaces, +5 to that stat in combat
• Dagger common effect

Hunting Blade's base effect is probably one of the most awkward effects in the game, up there with the original Freikugel. It's definitely getting reworked somehow. I can see them doing something similar to Selkie's weapon, where the weapon already grants a sizable stat boost to begin with and then grants the stats with the more awkward condition as a bonus on top.

Petra's base kit (Hunting Blade, Atk/Spd Form, Aerobatics, Ground Orders) appears to be designed to have her teammates move in first and then have her attack last. Because of this, I think there are a few other options for replacing the base effect while still getting the same idea across. The first is to replace the effect with a Spectrum version of Blade Session, which significantly simplifies the condition to just making allies move first. Another option is to implement the effect as a threshold effect where the weapon grants more effects depending on the number of stats where an ally nearby has a higher value in that stat. For example, they could grant a boost to all stats at a specific threshold instead of tying the boost to each stat to a comparison of that stat specifically.

Ideally, I also think they should ignore the fact that Aerobatics is already in her base kit and give her Grimoire's teleportation on her weapon, which would just be better for the intended playstyle. It would also be good give her either Pathfinder or Fruit of Idunn's teleportation effect.

Yune: Chaos Manifest

Base effect is:

• Permanent +3 Res
• If opponent has a Penalty:
  • +6 Atk in combat
  • Guaranteed follow-up

Chaos Named is being completely reworked. It's now basically all four single-stat tier-4 Chill skills (using Chill Def/Res 3 as a model) plus Panic on the initially targeted unit (not the splashed units), which changes her from controlling a specific area to instead target clumped units.

Since Yune is still a Penalty-based unit, she's likely getting any or all of the usual Penalty effects, like Dominance and "Penalty Doubler", which should help with her otherwise low Atk stat.

Yune's primary weakness is her absolutely awful Def stat, which leaves her extremely vulnerable to all physical weapons. I'd like to see her get some form of Windsweep, probably based on Res instead of Spd and with no drawback. Alternatively, simply having a Sweep effect against opponents with Penalties is on theme.

Yune is getting her default Atk/Res Bond upgraded to Atk/Res Unity with her remix, which is pretty underwhelming. However, it does look like they want to double down on her Res stat, so they might include some effect based on her Res. If not Sweep, then Dragon Wall is a possible defensive effect for her.

Fallen Female Corrin: Savage Breath

Base effect is:

• Permanent +3 Atk
• If there are no more than 2 allies within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat
• If there is no more than 1 ally within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat
• If there are no allies within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat
• Dragonstone common effect

While the weapon's base effect isn't actually a threshold effect (adding more effects as more thresholds are met), it functions like one, and I've written it out as if it were one, and I wouldn't be surprised if they added other effects to it at each threshold.

The effects Corrin wants most as a fast dragon are damage reduction and Null Follow-Up. I also wouldn't be surprised if, in addition to damage reduction, they added in other effects to mimic Negating Fang, like a boost in damage after the opponent's first attack.

Corrin also definitely wants +1 Special charge rate, given that her default Special is Dragon Fang. The Slaying effect would also be nice since her only viable Special for scoring is Aether, though it doesn't seem likely that it'll happen.

[Sunwoo]

It's pretty fucking ridiculous that the likes of Duo Hector is getting a refine while regular Hector doesn't get one.

Equally ridiculous is that things like Duo Hector are even getting refines at all, when characters like Anna and Takumi and Leo are stuck with literal garbage refines. And even the ones who didn't get literal garbage are so underpowered they might as well not have gotten it at all.

[Tybrosion]

The cynic in me says that Cynthia is just going to get a slightly better version of Soleil's Prf & refine. At least as far as Prf-less Grail units go, their Prfs typically keep or build on the effect from their base, inheritable weapon (see recently: Rutger and Haar).

I'm definitely not expecting Cynthia to get Canto (she might get Deathea-style warping if she's lucky) just because Sumia did because Sumia is a premium unit while Cynthia is not. It also doesn't help that they've been very stingy with giving out Canto on refines / new Prfs (unless if I'm mistaken, Nailah, another premium unit, is the only other recipient of a Canto refine).

 

[Othin]

I could see Canto[Rem+1] on Cynthia, since that's something freely available to melee units, unlike Canto[2].

[Diovani Bressan]

Refinements are here!

[Xenomata]

Ugh, daylight saving threw off the update time... it's the middle of the night in PST...

• Eliwood was originally a fairly supportive unit, given he only benefited allies and not himself. The remix... pretty much turned Eliwood into an offensive support unit. He's guaranteed to be getting at least +14/14/14/8 between the effects on Ardent Durandal and Vision of Arcadia II. He gives himself, as well as the ally with the highest Atk on the team, all of [Bonus Doubler], [Null Panic], and [Canto 1]. Other units have been able to give one of each effect, but not all at once.
  Oooh boy, my Laevatein just got a new best friend...
• Cynthia completely dropped the Firesweep effect. Huh... don't think anyone was expecting that. Instead she now gets Wings of Mercy EX and Spectrum Clash. The refine meanwhile is the penalty-reversal effect. Overall... it's certainly good if you like Cynthia and wanted her to have something better to play with, but I'm personally never a fan of bonuses that rely on the unit I'm using to be inflicted with a penalty beforehand.
• Does anyone else feel like Petra's refine is targeting a certain... someone? She's getting the expected stat boosters, and NFU is certainly not unexpected, but nullifying Guard effects if the enemy is at 100% HP as well as reducing damage from the first taken attack by 60%... those are all things that specifically break through Hegemon's most overbearing defensive effects.
  ...not saying it can't work against other units, hell I'm even half tempted to try working with her now, but... speaking as someone who has numerous times judged a unit based solely on how they deal with Hegemon, Petra feels like the closest that has ever come to being built specifically AS a Hegemon counter.
  ...what happened to dedicating her entire existence to Emperor Edelgard?
• Corrin didn't change how her "solo" effect worked, but she did build on it... a lot. Even the Dragon's Wrath effect was modified to account for any nearby allies.
  I feel like that could hurt her in the long run, since she's almost totally neutered if she's on a completely alive team who loves to stay together (basically any Arena or Aether Raids team), and it's not like she has the additional movement to properly escape her teammates... she looks like a unit who's full potential can only be under player control.

Hector and Python honestly didn't really get anything I feel worth talking about.
As for Yune, the one whose refine I was keeping a careful eye on...

The realistic number of maximum penalties on a single enemy unit Yune can expect to inflict is 28, assuming the enemy team was completely bunched up. More would technically be possible, but requires high-level Aether Raids towers. That means a realistic maximum of 28 additional damage and 56% damage reduction on the enemies first attack. Why her base weapon only gives +5 Res instead of matching the +6 Atk she already got is... beyond me. She's still getting an extra +11/10 Atk/Res though, which I am not complaining about.
Honestly, I don't care if it's a good or bad refine, especially since I'm sure people consider Eliwood the "winner" of these refines (a statement I feel grows more and more irrelevant as we get more refines...) I think Yune got an awesome remix. It's almost like Gunnthra but flying.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Xenomata

[Diovani Bressan]

13 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

The realistic number of maximum penalties on a single enemy unit Yune can expect to inflict is 28, assuming the enemy team was completely bunched up. More would technically be possible, but requires high-level Aether Raids towers. That means a realistic maximum of 28 additional damage and 56% damage reduction on the enemies first attack. Why her base weapon only gives +5 Res instead of matching the +6 Atk she already got is... beyond me. She's still getting an extra +11/10 Atk/Res though, which I am not complaining about.

If the foe she is using to get the buffs is panicked, she can get more.

Yune also inflict Panic on foes with highest especific stat. Panicked stats are also considered penalties, separated from the Chill Debuffs. So if a foe has 28 total penalties from Chaos Named+, but also have 24 panicked bonuses, that's a total of 52 stats penalties. With that, Yune gets a 100% damage reduction on first hit, and 52 Dominance Damage per hit.

I think the image below gives us an example of what she can do:

The Atk+6 Res+5 was weird, for sure. Why not Atk/Res+6? No one will never know...

[Ice Dragon]

I meant to post this earlier, but I fell asleep in the middle of writing this because of how long it was.

Cynthia: Lance of Heroics

Base effect is:

• Unit can move to any space adjacent to an ally with 80% HP or lower
• If HP is 25% or higher:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • +2 to all stats in combat for each space between attacker's starting space and current space (maximum +8)

Refine effect is:

• If there is at least one ally within 3 spaces:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • Unity effect for all stats

As expected, Lance of Heroics gets Flower Lance's improved Wings of Mercy effect. In addition, it gets +8 to all stats, a Clash-like effect for all stats, and the Unity effect for all stats.

It's a bit unfortunate it doesn't keep a Sweep effect of some sort, but the gigantic boost to all stats is probably enough to make up for it. The teleportation effect makes it relatively easy to set up the maximum boost for Clash, which allows Cynthia to get +16 to all stats. With maximum Dragonflowers, Cynthia now has 45-/68/57/47-/49 with only her weapon equipped and the maximum Clash boost from her weapon. For comparison, Legendary Caeda has 41-/64/50+/34-/38 if the opponent doesn't have any Bonuses and 41-/76/57+/41-/45 if the opponent has +6 to all stats.

The Unity effect is somewhat unfortunate since it gets in the way of running Atk/Spd Clash in the A slot due to the fact that Clash nullifies a unit's penalties when moving 2 spaces or more. In game modes where Penalties are less common, this is not an issue, but in game modes where Penalties are commonly used, it's probably best to run Atk/Spd Catch instead. 

I'm not sure why people expect Grail units to not get good refines. As best as I can tell, the developers appear to have settled on Grail units being between 4-star units and 5-star units in regards to how strong their weapons and refines will be.

Python: Snide Bow

Base effect is:

• Bow common effect
• If HP is 25% or higher at start of combat:
  • +5 Atk/Spd in combat
  • +7 damage

Refine effect is:

• With Blow-or-Unity condition:
  • -5 Spd/Def to opponent in combat
  • In-combat Panic effect to Spd/Def

Short Bow's additional damage when a Special activates is converted to +7 damage all the time, which is a pretty typical substitution. Otherwise, Snide Bow just gets +10 Atk/Spd and the in-combat Panic effect to the opponent's Spd/Def.

Getting no defensive effects is pretty rough, and Python is probably going to have to rely on surviving one round of combat and activating Desperation for any kind of sustain.

Snide Bow's boosts bring Python up to 42+/67/49/35/24 with maximum Dragonflowers, only his weapon equipped, and no Bonuses on the opponent and 42+/79/61/35/24 if the opponent has +6 to Spd/Def. For comparison, Sue has 40+/60/52/27+/24 with about +10-11 damage based on her Spd, 7 damage after combat, and Sweep as a defensive effect.

Python is a bit of a mixed bag. On the one hand, he hits really hard in game modes where Bonuses are common, but on the other hand, he probably won't be surviving counterattacks in those same game modes.

Duo Hector: Conjurer Curios

Base effect is updated:

• Effective damage against armor
• Permanent +3 Atk
• If it is an odd-numbered turn or opponent's HP is 99% or lower at start of combat:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • If opponent can make a follow-up attack (new):
    • Reduces damage from opponent's first attack by 60%
  • If opponent cannot make a follow-up attack (new):
    • Reduces damage from opponent's first attack by 30%

Refine effect is:

• If HP is 25% or higher at start of combat:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • Reduces opponent's Atk/Def in combat by 10% of unit's Atk at start of combat
  • Recover 7 HP after combat

Hector gets more stats, damage reduction on the opponent's first attack, and passive HP regeneration.

As expected, his turn number condition is unchanged since it already had an alternate condition. The alternate condition, however, makes him ill-suited for Aether Raids offense since Duo's Hindrance is still a staple defense structure, and even if he could activate his Duo skill, Healing Tower is also a staple defense structure.

Hector can viably get 72+6 visible Atk without game-mode-specific stat boosts, which amounts to an effective boost of +7 Atk/Def/Res, bringing his total effective in-combat stat boosts to +15/8/15/15 if his weapon's base effect is active.

Personally, I think Hector's turn number condition makes his performance a bit too inconsistent to use over any of the other premier armors, and his color is inconvenient in the current meta where he is weak to Brave Eirika and Brave Chrom. For Far Save, the existing premier options are still better.

Legendary Eliwood: Ardent Durandal

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Atk
• At start of turn, grants Bonus Doubler to unit and ally with highest Atk (previously only ally)
• If HP is 25% or higher at start of combat (new):
  • +4 to all stats in combat

Refine effect is:

• With Blow-or-Unity condition:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • Additional damage equal to 15% of opponent's Def (includes AoE Specials)
  • Dull Spectrum

Eliwood is now a proper combat unit. Ardent Durandal now grants +8 to all stats, half of a Moonbow on every attack, Dull Spectrum, and most importantly, now applies Bonus Doubler to Eliwood himself. Additionally, Vision of Arcadia II has been upgraded to grant Spd on top of its original Atk/Def, grant Canto (1), and apply those effects to Eliwood himself.

Unfortunately, Ardent Durandal doesn't grant the Guard effect, so Eliwood will still want to switch out his new Flow Refresh for Flow Guard. Surge Sparrow can be used if he still needs passive healing.

If Eliwood's Bonuses aren't nullified, he now has 44+/79+/58/57/28- with maximum Dragonflowers, only his weapon equipped, and no Bonuses from other sources plus half of a Moonbow on every attack (7 damage if the opponent has 50 Def) and Dull Spectrum. For comparison, Brave Seliph has 41-/71-/53+/43+/24- plus a maximum of four thirds of a Moonbow on every attack (20 damage if the opponent has 50 Def), again assuming if his Bonuses aren't nullified and he has no Bonuses from sources other than his C skill.

Eliwood continues to be a top-tier support unit and is now extremely competent in combat performance, but both his support effects and his combat performance can be gutted with Dull effects. This interestingly makes him better against fast Near Save units, as they typically don't run Close Def, whereas slow Near Save units do.

Dull Spectrum is obviously a good effect to have in the Arena, which is his home game mode.

Petra: Hunting Blade

Base effect is updated:

• Effective damage against beasts
• Slaying effect
• If there is at least one ally within 3 spaces (new),
  • +4 to all stats in combat
• At start of combat, for each of Atk/Spd/Def/Res, if there is at least one ally with that stat equal to [unit's stat - 4] or higher within 3 spaces, +6 to that stat in combat
  • (previously equal to unit's stat or higher with 2 spaces and +5 to that stat)
• Dagger common effect

Refine effect is:

• If unit's HP is 25% or higher at start of combat:
  • +4 to all stats in combat
  • The offensive half of Null Follow-Up
  • If opponent's HP is 100% at start of combat and with Blow condition:
    • The offensive half of Tempo
    • Reduces damage from opponent's first attack by 60%

As expected, they did end up giving Hunting Blade +8 to all stats so that the effect with the more awkward condition is more of a bonus rather than something that needs to be relied upon. The original base effect has been boosted to +6 instead of +5, and the stat comparison now only requires an ally's stat to be within 4 points of Petra's stat or higher and only requires the ally to be within 3 spaces instead of 2. Additionally, the refine gives Petra the offensive halves of Null Follow-Up and Tempo as well as damage reduction on the opponent's first attack.

Null Follow-Up and Tempo allow Petra to guarantee activating her default Luna if the opponent can counterattack. Alternatively, she can run Windsweep or Watersweep with Ruptured Sky if the damage reduction isn't sufficiently reliable (such as against Deadeye or bows in general). With Pulse support (Ostia's Pulse, Duo Chrom, etc.) or a source of +1 Special charge rate, Petra is also capable of viably running Lethality.

The changes to Hunting Blade's original base effect should make it significantly easier to activate its stat boosts. In particular, increasing the search range to 3 spaces means that Petra should always have at least one ally in range as long as she started her action adjacent to an ally, even if she isn't teleporting. The stat comparison was already not terribly difficult to pass simply because dagger fliers don't have that high of total stats, but the additional fudge range still helps.

As a benchmark, this does put Petra quite a bit ahead of Legault as long as Petra is consistently getting the full bonus to her Atk/Spd, and she's still slightly ahead even if she is at +0 merge and Legault is at +10 due to having more Spd and better additional effects.

Yune: Chaos Manifest

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Res
• If opponent's HP is 75% or higher or opponent has a Penalty (previously only if opponent has a Penalty):
  • +6 Atk and +5 Res in combat (previously only Atk)
  • Guaranteed follow-up
  • With Blow condition (new):
    • Reduces damage from opponent's first attack by [total Penalties on enemy within 2 spaces of opponent, including opponent, with highest total Penalties] × 2%

Refine effect is:

• With Blow-or-Unity condition:
  • +5 Atk/Res in combat
  • Additional damage equal to the total Penalties on enemy within 2 spaces of opponent, including opponent, with highest total Penalties (excludes AoE Specials)

There is no cap on the damage reduction. Wow. As long as there is a unit within the search range that was hit with all of Chaos Named+'s stat Penalties, Yune has 56% damage reduction. If there is a unit within the search range that got hit with all of Chaos Named+'s stat Penalties and got hit with Panic with +6 to all stats, Yune has 100% damage reduction. This is kind of silly. That's also 28 extra damage for the former case and 52 extra damage for the latter, which is just as absurd.

Additionally, both the damage reduction and additional damage are almost immune to Penalty nullification since they can use a different unit's Penalties instead of the current opponent's, which is great when going up against Brave Hector.

The guaranteed follow-up also had its condition made easier to activate, even if it mostly only matters for Brave Hector and a few less common units.

The +11 Atk and +10 Res almost feel like an afterthought.

Fallen Female Corrin: Savage Breath

Base effect is updated:

• Permanent +3 Atk
• Dragonstone common effect
• If there are no more than 3 allies within 2 spaces of unit (new):
  • +1 to all stats in combat
• If there are no more than 2 allies within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat
• If there is no more than 1 ally within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat
  • Nullifies stat Penalties on unit (new)
• If there are no allies within 2 spaces of unit:
  • +2 to all stats in combat

Refine effect is:

• If HP is 25% or higher at start of combat:
  • +4 to all stats
  • Reduces damage from opponent's first attack by [X]%
  • If unit's Atk is greater than opponent's Res
    • Additional damage on unit's first attack equal to [unit's Atk - opponent's Res] × [X]%
  • [X] = 10 × [3 - number of allies within 2 spaces] (minimum 0)

Savage Breath gains an additional +5 to all stats (+1 from the base effect and +4 from the refine effect). It also nullifies Corrin's Penalties and grants Dragon's Wrath with the numbers on Dragon's Wrath dependent on the number of allies within 2 spaces, maxing out at 30% with no allies and having no effect with 3 allies.

With maximum Dragonflowers, Corrin now has 50/69/52+/46/42- with only her weapon equipped and the maximum stat boost. For comparison, Halloween Female Corrin has 41/64+/51-/42-/36 and Guard.

Fallen Corrin has higher stats across the board, but sacrifices stats in order to gain support effects from party members. Fallen Corrin is not vulnerable to False Start and, if the opponent can make a follow-up attack, Guard and Tempo, but is vulnerable to follow-up attacks as a whole and to skills that nullify percentage damage reduction.

Fallen Corrin unfortunately has no synergy with Finish and also doesn't have the Slaying effect, which would have been useful for activating her Special on her first counterattack to fish for a one-hit kill. Her one-hit kill build is therefore a bit awkward because it requires her to run a Breath skill (unless she has team support that provides the effect), which also means that if she wants to run Distant Counter, she does so in her A slot because a boosted Distant Counter + Fierce Breath is stronger than Fierce Breath + Distant Counter (D).

Overall, this puts Fallen Corrin a bit behind Halloween Corrin, but that's not unexpected. Fallen Corrin's main weakness is the fact that she is unable to receive most team support effects. If your team isn't stacking support effects, Fallen Corrin is now better than Legendary Corrin, but with support effects, I think Legendary Corrin still comes out on top.

 

Overall thoughts

Yune's is insane.

Eliwood's is really good as long as you don't run up against units with Dull. Cynthia's, Petra's, and Corrin's are all pretty good and are worth using, though Cynthia is brought down by an oversaturated unit class.

Hector's is good, but "good" isn't quite good enough when compared to other units that do the same things he does and are significantly easier to obtain.

Python's isn't necessarily bad, considering he's a 4-star unit, but makes him a glass cannon, which can make it difficult to actually use him successfully with his new weapon compared to the much safer Firesweep Bow.

[Xenomata]

Testing out Yune against a Hegemon with complete and utter debuffs active, she took absolutely zero damage from a Bonfire trigger that should have added up to 80 damage total, more or less.
it's such a specific situation, but it's still awesome to watch someone with garbage Def take nothing from that.

[XRay]

Finally got some time to comment.

Between the Ardent Durandal and Vision of Arcadia, Eliwood: Blazing Knight got Bonus Doubler, Null Panic, and Canto, as status effects, and he can buff himself; he can buff his allies with those effects and bonus buffs; and he got buff neutralization and true damage. As a nuke, he will probably want Surge Sparrow and Flow Guard for better sustainability, and Windsweep and Watersweep as Sacred Seals whenever that happpens. Alternatively he can run triple Bonus Doubler to really beef up his Def too, although that makes he very vulnerable buff neutralization. IGNORE THIS PART.

Yune got super blade tome/super Blizzard that is really hard to disable, potentially 100% damage reduction based on amount of debuffs, and guaranteed follow-up. Chaos Named is basically four different Sabotages with Chill targeting, as well as inflicting Panic on the primary Chill targets. I think she should run Sturdy Impact or Atk/Spd Catch on A. For B, I guess the best options right now would be Seals, Preempts, and Mystic Boost.

Python got true damage and buff reversal.

Hector: Conjurer Curios got armor effectiveness, damage reduction, and healing. He is pretty disappointing, especially as a 5* Special Heroes who is expensive and hard to obtain, as well as made obsolete in Aether Raids and he does not really fit into any other modes.

Corrin: Wailing Soul got penalty neutralization, damage reduction, and true damage in the form of mini Glimmer. There is not a lot of good A options for dual phase, so Solo feels like the best option, and Finish might work too if the player does not mind tiptoeing around positioning requirements. Not a lot of good dual phase B options either besides Dragon Wall, Dragon's Ire, and Dragon's Wrath.

Cynthia got Wings of Mercy and penalty reversal. I wish they kept Firesweep.

Petra got Slaying, beast effectiveness, Null Follow-Up, and Tempo.

The best updates out of this batch are the Legendary and Mythic Heroes. Petra is pretty decent. Corrin: Wailing Soul and Hector: Conjurer Curios are rather meh, and Hector: Conjurer Curios is rather disappointing since he is harder and more expensive to obtain compared to Corrin: Wailing Soul. Cynthia and Python got crap, which is pretty disappointing too.

Edited November 14, 2022 by XRay

[Diovani Bressan]

42 minutes ago, XRay said:

Alternatively he can run triple Bonus Doubler to really beef up his Def too, although that makes he very vulnerable buff neutralization.

Bonus Doubler skill is infantry exclusive.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Bonus Doubler skill is infantry exclusive.

Darn it! Oh well.

Surge Sparrow is roughly Def/Res+30 anyways with the healing (assuming Moonbow, the foe counters once, and no Guard), so I guess it is not too bad missing out on Def+12 from the extra two Bonus Doublers.

Edited November 14, 2022 by XRay

[Xenomata]

Two Duo units being refined this Christmas month, plus 2 regular refines and 1 grail refine. No demote units this time, though you may be forgiven for thinking Hubert was a demote...

• Retainer's Report is a new weapon for Red Tome Infantry Hubert: Sinister Servant
• Oracle's Breath for Red Manakete Infantry  Nah: Little Miss
• Reginleif for Lance Infantry Ephraim w/Lyon: Dynastic Duo
• Tanngrisnir for Colorless Bow Armor Marth w/Elice: Royal Altean Duo
• Athame for grail Colorless Dagger Infantry Kronya: Gleaming Blade

Edited December 1, 2022 by Xenomata

[Sunwoo]

Duo Ephraim may be a duo, but I guess he counts as a "regular pool unit" in terms of getting a refine. Alas, I wonder if Hubert's refine will be enough to save him. I forget he exists half the time, and I have him.