General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[colossus86]

@Kaden it's worth noting that Sagittae's status as a "Lopsided" weapon (having a single full effect too strong to be paired with another full effect hence the Def+3) so they might not be willing to throw the "Underdog" effects around everywhere.

That being said there is some interesting context to talk about. First sometimes IS just misjudges how strong something is, like with Light Brand. It's also worth noting that Kliff is a ranged unit because of another prf Lopsided Tome, Giga Excalibur.

G. Excalibur was released at the same time as Vassal's blade yet the former didn't receive a full 2nd effect. Since both units in question have great stats, that was almost certainly due to typing differences. SF!Nino is a ranged flyer while Karla is a melee infantry. So there's precedent the an effect considered too strong for one type of unit is fine for another.

Lastly it's important to remeber that pfr's are just skills locked into a single unit. Odin's Grimmore and Felicias plate are silly weapons balanced by who they're attached to. So if a unit is considered bad enough, nothing's off the table in terms of a new weapon

[Ice Dragon]

@colossus86 Stat +3 is considered a full effect.

[colossus86]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

@colossus86 Stat +3 is considered a full effect.

Yeah i know i should probably reword/define this stuff. The way I see it there are 4(?) tiers to weapon effects. 

1. Stat +3. Self explanatory.

2.These are established generic weapon effects like slaying/wo dao as well as effects that mimic 200/240 SP skills.

3. These are unique effects like Great Flame and Blizzard that are notable in that they are always paired with stat boosts and don't have any corrisponding skills that perfectly mimic their effects.

4.These skills mimic 300 SP skills, namely Distant Counter. To this point IS has not seen it fit to pair a 300 SP skill with any other (non free) effect.

The general idea is that a weapon's total effects should add up to 4 given current balance standards. That being said, weapons are certainly not an exact science (like how do you make sense of Felicia's Plate using this) and as I discussed earlier some effects are judged a certain way for particular types of units, although that's nothing new (see how many skills flyers/cavs aren't allowed to run).

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 hours ago, colossus86 said:

@Kaden it's worth noting that Sagittae's status as a "Lopsided" weapon (having a single full effect too strong to be paired with another full effect hence the Def+3) so they might not be willing to throw the "Underdog" effects around everywhere.

That being said there is some interesting context to talk about. First sometimes IS just misjudges how strong something is, like with Light Brand. It's also worth noting that Kliff is a ranged unit because of another prf Lopsided Tome, Giga Excalibur.

G. Excalibur was released at the same time as Vassal's blade yet the former didn't receive a full 2nd effect. Since both units in question have great stats, that was almost certainly due to typing differences. SF!Nino is a ranged flyer while Karla is a melee infantry. So there's precedent the an effect considered too strong for one type of unit is fine for another.

Lastly it's important to remeber that pfr's are just skills locked into a single unit. Odin's Grimmore and Felicias plate are silly weapons balanced by who they're attached to. So if a unit is considered bad enough, nothing's off the table in terms of a new weapon

They didn't really misjudge Light brand so much as it facing Killer Syndrome imo - e.g. its broken as fuck to the hell, but they put big enough downside/conditions for it to be balanced. By Nino and Karla, they made the req much more lenient/in your control and turns out 23 MT weapon is superb. Honestly even on Leif himself, Light Brand pops up as his best weapon more often than i thought since adding 14 damage is that good(+ general stats spread)

[Ice Dragon]

23 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

The general idea is that a weapon's total effects should add up to 4 given current balance standards.

Golden Dagger (Killer weapon + Ready-Special Spectrum Blow Stance Counter), Urvan (Killer weapon + Deflect All), Hoarfrost Knife (Killer weapon + Close Armored Blow 10 + Brash Assault 8), Fensalir (Dull All + Spd/Def Bond 3), and Meisterschwert (Brave weapon + Brave Stance) all total at least 5 on your scale, though.

 

49 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

That being said, weapons are certainly not an exact science (like how do you make sense of Felicia's Plate using this)

You make sense of it simply with the rule "every weapon has a maximum of two non-free skill-like effects on it" with an extremely loose definition of "effect" (both of Golden Dagger's and Hoarfrost Knife's chimera refine effects end up counting as one giant effect, presumably deemed a balanced effect due to the user's unit type and stat spread).

In particular, I highly expect Distant Counter weapons to eventually get refines with Ostian Counter and Golden Dagger being pilot tests of what those could look like.

[DehNutCase]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In particular, I highly expect Distant Counter weapons to eventually get refines with Ostian Counter and Golden Dagger being pilot tests of what those could look like.

Golden Dagger isn't DC (it's only DC when the special is up), so it'd have to be a refine of a regular weapon.

 

Which practically means it has to be a Prf type refine if you don't want to put dragons out of a job, pretty much. (Since other unit types have way more stat spreads to choose from.)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Golden Dagger (Killer weapon + Ready-Special Spectrum Blow Stance Counter), Urvan (Killer weapon + Deflect All), Hoarfrost Knife (Killer weapon + Close Armored Blow 10 + Brash Assault 8), Fensalir (Dull All + Spd/Def Bond 3), and Meisterschwert (Brave weapon + Brave Stance) all total at least 5 on your scale, though.

 

You make sense of it simply with the rule "every weapon has a maximum of two non-free skill-like effects on it" with an extremely loose definition of "effect" (both of Golden Dagger's and Hoarfrost Knife's chimera refine effects end up counting as one giant effect, presumably deemed a balanced effect due to the user's unit type and stat spread).

In particular, I highly expect Distant Counter weapons to eventually get refines with Ostian Counter and Golden Dagger being pilot tests of what those could look like.

Speaking of Ostian counter, i kinda find it funny how none of Hardin's EP exclusive build that didn't use Aether is able to compete against Ostian Counter Bector with Berkut Lance, unless you need Hardin's high speed(for armor standard) for some reason

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Golden Dagger isn't DC (it's only DC when the special is up), so it'd have to be a refine of a regular weapon.

That matters why?

Golden Dagger effectively allows the developers to test the effects of Slaying Edge + Distant Counter in the weapon slot (i.e. having the passive A slot free) while restricting builds to just the Moonbow + Wrath + Quickened Pulse (standard Karla) and Pavise/Aegis + Shield Pulse + Quick Riposte (modified bulky Raven) builds.

 

5 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Speaking of Ostian counter, i kinda find it funny how none of Hardin's EP exclusive build that didn't use Aether is able to compete against Ostian Counter Bector with Berkut Lance, unless you need Hardin's high speed(for armor standard) for some reason

That's because Hector effectively has one or two more skill slots than Hardin depending on their builds. (Two if Hardin is using Gradivus, one if Hardin uses a different weapon.)

[DehNutCase]

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That matters why?

Golden Dagger effectively allows the developers to test the effects of Slaying Edge + Distant Counter in the weapon slot (i.e. having the passive A slot free) while restricting builds to just the Moonbow + Wrath + Quickened Pulse (standard Karla) and Pavise/Aegis + Shield Pulse + Quick Riposte (modified bulky Raven) builds.

It matters because Prf upgrades are boring. A Prf upgrade is only a upgrade for one stat-line, for one effect. It basically doesn't affect the game whatsoever, since it's not the effect being tested, it's the guy's stat spread. (All we learn is that DC + Slaying isn't overpowered on a guy with Saber's spread.)

Generics tests effects, Prfs test stat spreads.

 

Like, imagine Reinhardt wasn't in the game, but Olwen was, are we going to say Dire Thunder is bad just because Olwen's spread isn't optimized for it? (Honestly Olwen's way better with -blade, but even with -blade she's just average. And Dire Thunder doesn't really affect her evaluation since it's comparable---even slightly worse---than a generic.) I'd say of course not, because Dire Thunder is a tome, meaning any unit who has it has both -blade and Brave, giving it the strongest weapon slot in the game. This isn't a Reinhardt thing, this is just Dire Thunder allowing a unit access to -blade and brave weapon at the same time, everyone with more than 30 Atk is going to be basically busted with Dire Thunder no matter how you slice it.

Giving Dire Thunder to Olwen tests jack diddly, basically, because her stat spread isn't good enough to distinct her from other options even with her Prf.

 

And even after we tested Golden Dagger, we'd still only be able to add it to Prfs, which is kind of pointless. Prfs are by definition the least interesting additions to the game, affecting only 1 unit, and Prf upgrades tend to be even less interesting (since you have to pay Dew for it).

[bottlegnomes]

@DehNutCase I think what Ice Dragon is getting at is that they're testing I'd giving DC weapons refinements would be overpowered. Right now, there are several units who could really use refinements, but it seems like they're being set aside possibly due to the fact that their weapons base effect is DC. With Ostian Counter and Golden Dagger, they can see if giving units additional effects is overkill in very specific scenarios. Hector is the male CYL victor so ever was probably going to be fine with him being potentially busted, and Saber is a decidedly unimpressive unit. If Saber with Golden Dagger isn't broken and Hector with Ostian Counter isn't meta destroying, then maybe it's okay to give people like Ike, Xander, Ryoma, etc. refinements. That's at least the way I see it.

[DehNutCase]

3 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

@DehNutCase I think what Ice Dragon is getting at is that they're testing I'd giving DC weapons refinements would be overpowered. Right now, there are several units who could really use refinements, but it seems like they're being set aside possibly due to the fact that their weapons base effect is DC. With Ostian Counter and Golden Dagger, they can see if giving units additional effects is overkill in very specific scenarios. Hector is the male CYL victor so ever was probably going to be fine with him being potentially busted, and Saber is a decidedly unimpressive unit. If Saber with Golden Dagger isn't broken and Hector with Ostian Counter isn't meta destroying, then maybe it's okay to give people like Ike, Xander, Ryoma, etc. refinements. That's at least the way I see it.

I, uh, I know that's what he's saying.

 

What I said is that Prf don't test how strong a particular effect is, it tests the stat-spread of the unit it's on. Dire Thunder is one of the most broken Prfs in the game because it's a Tome Brave Weapon, but Reinhardt being absurd is like 90% his bases and stat-spread---you don't see me going around calling Olwen the best unit in the game. Because she's not.

Similarly, giving a Killer & DC combo to basically the most generic possible sword unit doesn't really tell you anything about how broken it'd be in other people's hands.

[bottlegnomes]

@DehNutCase I'm not really following what your concern is then. They're testing what statline and effects when combined with DC result in broken units. That way they don't accidentally add another Reinhardt.

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

@DehNutCase I'm not really following what your concern is then. They're testing what statline and effects when combined with DC result in broken units. That way they don't accidentally add another Reinhardt.

If Reinhardt didn't exist, but Olwen did, Olwen not being broken tells you nothing about how broken Reinhardt is.

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

If Reinhardt didn't exist, but Olwen did, Olwen not being broken tells you nothing about how broken Reinhardt is.

It does tell them that it's safe to release a unit with a similar weapon effect and slightly more optimized stats. The problem with Rein versus Olwen is they went too far on each end.

[ILikeKirbys]

@bottlegnomes So, are those effects meta-destroying/broken/too-good? I would guess not, at least in Brave Hector's case (I would argue Maltet + access to Bold Fighter is what would make him too good if anything does, Ostian Counter is certainly nice but it feels more like a neat bonus on top of those two things than the thing that makes Hector great, he probably wouldn't be too much worse with just regular Distant Counter to be honest), dunno about Saber though since I've never pulled him.

Although, the thing about Saber's refinement that interests me the most is that the effect is tied to having his Special ready at the start of combat. Do you think we could see more of that sort of effect on future personal weapons?

Edited November 19, 2018 by ILikeKirbys

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Similarly, giving a Killer & DC combo to basically the most generic possible sword unit doesn't really tell you anything about how broken it'd be in other people's hands.

Saber is literally the same as Ryoma, but with Legendary Ike's physical bulk.

Saber's stat spread is 40/34/36/35/25 with a Killer Distant Counter weapon. Ryoma's stat spread is 41/34/36/27/21 with a Distant Counter weapon. Ike's stat spread is 41/36/30/35/21 with a Distant Counter weapon.

 

EDTI: Actually, now that I look at it, Saber [+Atk, -Res] is literally Legendary Ike [=], but with a free Darting Blow 3 and Darting Stance 3 and a Killer weapon refine on his weapon.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

It does tell them that it's safe to release a unit with a similar weapon effect and slightly more optimized stats. The problem with Rein versus Olwen is they went too far on each end.

How many Prfs do you want to release, exactly, to test one type of effect? Every Prf that doesn't make the unit viable means that unit need to be good with generics to be worth running---and units that are good with generics aren't exactly looking for Prfs, especially refines that cost Dew.

 

That's for generics, like I said. (Generics as in inheritable weapons.) The most useful thing to look at about what spreads are broken with Dire Thunder isn't the two Prf wielders, it's our bows, who all have Brave Bow. Our bows between them tests tons of stat spreads and movement types.

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Saber is literally the same as Ryoma, but with Legendary Ike's physical bulk.

Saber's stat spread is 40/34/36/35/25 with a Killer Distant Counter weapon. Ryoma's stat spread is 41/34/36/27/21 with a Distant Counter weapon. Ike's stat spread is 41/36/30/35/21 with a Distant Counter weapon.

Wouldn't Ike and Ryoma's Prf upgrade come with stats on top of the killer effect, though?

(Just DC + Killer would be fine, but I can't imagine people being happy with that---especially for Ike, who kind of needs -2 for a killer effect to be worth running, due to Radiant Aether + Breath.)

[bottlegnomes]

@ILikeKirbys Oh absolutely. I feel like they took a unit everyone expected to be broken and gave him a good but not astounding secondary skill to start with. Same with Saber. He's an incredibly mediocre unit that becomes very solid given the right  circumstances. I think the conditional DC was both a mitigating factor so he didn't end up too strong and a way for them to see how the community reacts to that type of effect. They're starting somewhere they feel is safe to test the waters and working from there. I don't think it's any coincidence that they didn't dump Brave Ephraim's speed and up his neutral res to 30.

 

@Ice Dragon 43 HP*  

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, bottlegnomes said:

43 HP*  

If Saber gets 43 HP counted, then Ryoma and Ike should get 44 HP counted from their hypothetical refine as well since it wouldn't be fair to compare a refined weapon with an unrefined weapon. So Saber is still 1 HP behind them.

I'm basically comparing Golden Dagger [unique] with hypothetical Raijinto [Killer weapon effect] and Ragnell [Killer weapon effect] refines to make things as close to "apples to apples" as possible.

 

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Wouldn't Ike and Ryoma's Prf upgrade come with stats on top of the killer effect, though?

+3 HP, which is already accounted for.

[DehNutCase]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

+3 HP, which is already accounted for.

Saber's unique refine doesn't give hp. And I meant +stats in the vein of Saber's---that is, conditional but fairly strong---rather than just a bunch of stats across the board, they already would have the generic stat refines for that.

Edited November 19, 2018 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Saber's unique refine doesn't give hp.

Oh, huh, that's interesting.

 

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

And I meant +stats in the vein of Saber's---that is, conditional but fairly strong---rather than just a bunch of stats across the board, they already would have the generic stat refines for that.

Why would it have to? The Killer weapon effect is entirely worthy of being a refine on its own (as much so as the Wo Dao effect is), and since it gives an apples-to-apples comparison, I don't see a reason not to use it as the example to compare against.

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Why would it have to? The Killer weapon effect is entirely worthy of being a refine on its own (as much so as the Wo Dao effect is), and since it gives an apples-to-apples comparison, I don't see a reason not to use it as the example to compare against.

The killer effect really isn't good for Ike, is my biggest problem with it. (You need to run his hypothetical unique Prf + Quickened Pulse or something for it to be useful). So if they do give Ragnell a killer they need to make it slightly overpowered so that Vanguard gets as much out of it as Mercenary.

 

I'm more fine with a generic +3, Killer, DC, on Ryoma, but he's gen 1, meaning he'll want a bit more stats out of it than Vanguard. (The fact that his flying version also has Rajinto makes this troublesome, though.)

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon I'm just horsing around.

@DehNutCase I think everyone is well aware that at the point Rein and Olwen were released they were throwing shit at a wall and seeing what stuck. Now, of course they analyze analogous units. How do you think they pick a safe baseline? Do you think it's a coincidence that Hector is a more physically oriented Hardin who sacrifices his A slot for an available S slot? Or that Ephraim is a less min-maxed Christmas Chrom? Or that Saber is so comparable to Ike and Ryoma with his bonuses? They know those characters aren't completely meta-breaking so they felt safe in making tweaks. Still doesn't mean they don't want to test the waters with actual implementations instead of just relying on hypotheticals and approximations.

@Ice Dragon & @DehNutCase Unless the refinery is wrong, it does. Just double-checked.

[bottlegnomes]

@DehNutCase Does Vike really need as much help though? Last I remember, he was like 3 tiers higher than regular Ike, being Aish tier. If anything, that seems like an ideal refinement in a similar vein to Hardin and Camus, except less lopsided.

Oh, scratch that. They're closer than I remembered.

Edited November 19, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[DefyingFates]

23 hours ago, Kaden said:

Lyon I could see working this as a unique refinement for Naglfar.

I came here to say this, thanks!

To add to the speculation side of things, what would Lyon prefer as a refine? I know it reflects FE8 but his Speed is abysmal, so I figured he'd either get the above, Follow-Up Ring (with Bold Fighter being a thing, maybe they'd even take the HP restriction off) or QR5 like Roy. That said, I don't know if that makes him too powerful or not, so what do you all think?