Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) @ILikeKirbys Ok, I see. I suppose I would do a Magma Boost 4 (Atk/Def) skill for Luke, and do the others you mentioned. Might need to revise Athena’s, the name and the refine effect. Later, though. Right now, we have Valentian and Jugdrali Swordies. Spoiler -Gray: Peasant Rapier: 16 might Default: Armor/Cavalry effectiveness. Refine: Ignores fortress tile effects on foe during combat (references a Rapier art in SoV) -Tobin: Ilwoon: 16 might Default: Special cooldown count -1. Effective against armors. Refine: Infantry Pulse 3 -Arden: Heroic Sword: 11 might Default: Brave Weapon effect (Spd -5) Refine: Earthen Blade 3 (Def version of Heavy Blade 3) -Silvia: Elegant Ward: 16 might Default: Barrier Blade effect Refine: Atk/Spd Ploy (-4) -Lene: Elegant Levee: 16 Might Default: Safeguard effect Refine: Chill Spd 3 -Leif: [Refined] Light Brand: No need for one. Edited January 19, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper Revisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Bumper cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrobin Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) Laslow: Onyx Nohrblade Base: Effective against Cavalry. If Laslow initated combat, after combat, switch places with foe. Refine: Attack Smoke. Edited January 18, 2019 by Corrobin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Corrobin said: Laslow: Onyx Nohrblade Base: Effective against Cavalry. If Laslow initated combat, after combat, switch places with foe. Refine: Attack Smoke. I’d say Attack Smoke and Cavalry effectiveness work well enough, but I do not know if Lunge works with Laslow. Someone slow like him might not be able to kill the opponent. I don’t know, there’s a good reason you see this on defense teams only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrobin Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: I’d say Attack Smoke and Cavalry effectiveness work well enough, but I do not know if Lunge works with Laslow. Someone slow like him might not be able to kill the opponent. I don’t know, there’s a good reason you see this on defense teams only. Wait, actually, that makes me realize something that might work a little better. Onyx Nohrblade Base: Effective against cavalry. If Laslow initiated combat, move foe back one space. Refine: Attack Smoke. The idea is that we use Knock Back to slightly increase the range on Attack Smoke. I haven't tested how movement-based B skills work with Smoke, but my assumption is that the move takes first priority, then the debuff. Therefore, a melee unit has a smoke skill active, there's a redundant square-where the unit with Smoke is standing-that won't ever get debuffed. With this, however, the Knock Back will make it so that it can hit enemies that are further away-three squares away from Laslow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 No clue what it'd be called, but how about a weapon with 50% HP guard effect and effective against units equipped with a weapon that decreases cooldown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: No clue what it'd be called, but how about a weapon with 50% HP guard effect and effective against units equipped with a weapon that decreases cooldown? That’d be unique. May I ask that you take a look at my refined and see how they are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, Corrobin said: The idea is that we use Knock Back to slightly increase the range on Attack Smoke. I haven't tested how movement-based B skills work with Smoke, but my assumption is that the move takes first priority, then the debuff. After-combat movement skills activate after after-combat buffs and debuffs. 24 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: No clue what it'd be called, but how about a weapon with 50% HP guard effect and effective against units equipped with a weapon that decreases cooldown? We'd need a new icon for that to add to the effective damage list. And making it only affect weapon skills seems odd. And would it apply to Tome of Thoron, which doesn't have base cooldown reduction, but has cooldown reduction as a start-of-turn effect (from Wrath)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrobin Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 In that case: Onyx Nohrblade: Base: Effective against Cavalry. Unit nullifies enemy follow-ups if at start of combat, enemy is at 100% HP. Refine: Attack Smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Corrobin said: In that case: Onyx Nohrblade: Base: Effective against Cavalry. Unit nullifies enemy follow-ups if at start of combat, enemy is at 100% HP. Refine: Attack Smoke. Yeah, that’s a very good weapon for Laslow. Make sure they don’t double you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: We'd need a new icon for that to add to the effective damage list. And making it only affect weapon skills seems odd. And would it apply to Tome of Thoron, which doesn't have base cooldown reduction, but has cooldown reduction as a start-of-turn effect (from Wrath)? For icon, the first two things that come to mind are the special symbol and the QP symbol. Guard uses a "disabled" image of the special symbol and the blade skills have it in the background, so there's a bit of precedence there, but I suppose there is the danger of it looking too similar to breath effectiveness at a quick glance. QP has Special Fighter and Special Spiral in addition to itself. Neither one would be immediately clear as to what specifically the effect does, but since weapons specify their effectiveness in the text, that should cover any initial confusion, and then it's a matter of internalizing the association. One other issue with either, that I can think of at the moment, is that it means after two similar types of skills, they'd be out of already existing symbols. As for passives in addition to weapons, I wasn't sure how much coverage I wanted to give it as effective damage is quite potent and the slaying effect is already a pretty major part of the meta, hence the large number of personal weapons that now have the effect. I'd considered passives, as the game tends to not differentiate between them and weapons, and even actually extending it to skills that accelerate cooldown charging (breaths, blades, etc.), but that last part on top of the others especially seemed like overkill. Basically, my thinking was start smallish and expand from there since the game tends to operate on buffing everyone and everything else rather than actively nerfing someone or something. That said, if it doesn't seem like overkill to lump in all cooldown reducing skills, then I don't have any objections. For Tome of Thoron, my thinking at the time was no. I'd intended it as starting out with just weapons that had static cooldown reductions for the aforementioned balance reasons. Probably should've clarified that in my initial post. For in-game wording, sticking with just the limited scope, maybe something like: "Effective against foes equipped with weapon skills that accelerate Special trigger (cooldown count-1). If unit's HP >= 50% inflcints Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)" The cooldown count -1 part does seem dangerously close to the Wrath description, but those skills use the word grants. Still not exactly the most intuitive, but hopefully that's enough, and well it's not like the English descriptions are never prone to misinterpretation—no clue about other languages. The major issue that I see with this whole idea is that it would result in Wo weapons gaining in popularity if the hypothetical weapon became widespread enough. Wo weapons, based admittedly on mostly my gut feeling, don't seem quite as flexible. Special Spiral/Wo Dao/2 CD special is basically identical to Wrath/Slaying Edge/2 CD special, but Slaying Edge also allows for maintaining faster usage of higher cooldown specials, and even things like Galeforce. Not ideal maybe, but it doesn't seem like the end of the world if the hypothetical weapon is only limited to one or two units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 @Azure the Scale Tipper Sure. Don't know that anything I say will be especially insightful, but here goes. On 1/16/2019 at 3:00 PM, Azure the Scale Tipper said: -Cain: Red Bull’s Blade: 16 might Default: Atk/Spd Solo 3 Refine: Grants +3 Spd/Def to all cavalry and infantry allies. You need to specify a range or condition for the refinement, otherwise that's ridiculously good. As for the skill itself, it seems fine. I don't know that it necessarily fits Cain's personality, but as far as improving him as a unit, it does a fine job. He could hit 60/44 at neutral when not adjacent to an ally. Quote -Draug: Draug’s Sword: 16 might Default: Slaying effect. Refine: Def Victory (Def version of Divine Naga refine) Slaying effect fits Draug much better than brave so I'm all for that change. For the refinement, I'm kind of of this opinion with Divine Naga as well, which is does the +3 to every stat really matter? With Deirdre, how much are the +3 speed and defense really going to help her in this day and age? Same for Draug with res. To me at least, it works for Saber because with how his kit is built and how his stats are distributed, he can actually make use of every stat. Granted, I've only had very passing experience with Saber and none with Divine Naga, so take that with a grain of salt. Personally, what Draug has going for him are decent speed for an armor and lots of defense and health. His res is a bit low to really matter; HP keeps him alive against mages. Where he needs help is damage output since his strength is quite low. My first reaction would be to find a way to play up those strengths, cover his damage output, and not worry about the res. Another route would be to come up with a weapon that plays into his base kit. Gut instinct is to give a link type effect but when it's the enemy to play into his Lunge, but that seems like it'd be really awkward given his movement range and just the fact of making it actually practical. Quote -Luke: “Legend’s” Blade: 16 might Default: Brave weapon effect (Spd -5) Refine: Magma Boost 4 (If unit’s Max HP>=foe’s current HP, grants Atk/Def +6 during combat Personal brave melee weapons are 11 might and haven't had an effect stronger than +3 to a stat, Amiti/Meisterschwert (okay that probably is stronger than +3 to a stat). Or, in certain cases, have a semi-stringent requirement, Alm's Falchion/Double Lion. The refinement seems like it'd actually make boost skills worthwhile since it doesn't basically require the unit to have full HP. Quote -Athena: Athena’s Blade: 16 might Default: Wo effect Refine: If unit is in combat with a sword or axe foe, grants +4 Atk/Spd/Def during combat. Looks good. Nothing fancy, but gives her good coverage against swords and axes which is plenty. Quote -Gray: Peasant Rapier: 16 might Default: Armor/Cavalry effectiveness. Refine: Ignores fortress tile effects on foe during combat (references a Rapier art in SoV) So my main issue with this is the refinement seems overly specialized. On a lot of maps it's going to have no effect, but to be fair, against certain enemies it could be immensely useful. (I'm looking at you armors on that fucking desert map.) If you're okay with that, it seems good. I'm not familiar with Gray a ton, but he doesn't seem like he needs boatloads of help. Quote -Tobin: Ilwoon: 16 might Default: Special cooldown count -1. Effective against armors. Refine: Grants +4 Atk/Def if foe initiates combat. He will still get doubled by everything and not sure how reliably the +4 defense will help him survive. For comparison, Xander is the same tier as Tobin and he has -2 HP and the same defense as this hypothetical Tobin. Granted, Tobin does have +3 speed for all that matters, +3 attack which is nice, and +9 res which does seem like it might be significant. It seems fine, but I don't know that it'd make him anything more that somewhat less mediocre. Quote -Arden: Heroic Sword: 16 might Default: Brave Weapon effect (Spd -5) Refine: Chill Def 3 11 might on brave weapons again. Otherwise, my only issue is that it doesn't take advantage of Pursuit Ring's dual phase capabilities in a way that makes it meaningful over just running Bold Fighter and QR or Vengeful Fighter. Quote -Silvia: Elegant Ward: 16 might Default: Barrier Blade effect Refine: Atk/Spd Ploy (-4) I like it. Keeps her role as a res tank and gives her some additional utility instead of trying to force her into a more offensive role. Quote -Lene: Elegant Levee: 16 Might Default: Safeguard effect Refine: Chill Spd 3 This really depends on what you're going for. I like this weapon in the sense that it gives her some additional support ability and helps her survive a little better by possibly helping her avoid a double. That said, ideally, dancers shouldn't be ending up in combat, and unlike Silvia, Lene's defense isn't enough to allow her to viably serve as bait. Quote -Leif: [Refined] Light Brand: 16 might Default: Def +3. If foe’s Def/Res >= foe’s other defensive stat (whichever is smaller) +2, deals +7 damage. Refine: Special Cooldown Count -1 The Slaying effect being the refinement seems a bit weird, and that would give it essentially three effects, though that's not unheard of, but otherwise I like it. If anything, it's a bit too strong. It's effectively a 23 might slaying weapon against any enemy that doesn't have nearly identical mixed bulk, and more importantly, on a unit with a fairly solid statline. Then again, I never really saw why people hated base Light Brand so much in the first place. 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Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: @Azure the Scale Tipper Big quote @bottlegnomesMaybe I can suggest these changes, then? All Brave Weapons: Sure, let’s go with 11. Cain: Within 2 spaces, sorry. Draug: Kestrel Stance, maybe? He needs Atk more than he does Def. Then again, that would be a little weak. Maybe the weapon at base could also have Guard (>=50% HP) on it. Tobin: Yeah, that’s a tough one. And none of his stats are high enough to do a Victory skill. Maybe Firestorm Boost 4, since he has nice HP? Arden: Earthen Blade (Basically a Def version of Heavy Blade) seems perfect to me, actually. Leif: Okay, I’ll bring it back to the way it was (with the difference as +5), while still retaining the fact it could be either defensive stat. Maybe turn that Slaying effect into adaptive damage, to reference how it was a magic sword? Still too strong? Will come back with more refines. I have a lot written on a backlog of sorts already. Edited January 19, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: Leif: Okay, I’ll bring it back to the way it was (with the difference as +5), while still retaining the fact it could be either defensive stat. Maybe turn that Slaying effect into adaptive damage, to reference how it was a magic sword? Still too strong? The entire reason why Light Brand and Shining Bow have the effect that they do is already in reference to the fact that they are magic weapons. The reason why they get the bonus when Res is the weaker stat and not when Def is the weaker stat is because the effect of dealing 7 more damage when the opponent has 5 or more less Res than Def mimics the effect of adaptive damage without being identical. Edited January 19, 2019 by Ice Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: The entire reason why Light Brand and Shining Bow have the effect that they do is already in reference to the fact that they are magic weapons. The reason why they get the bonus when Res is the weaker stat and not when Def is the weaker stat is because the effect of dealing 7 more damage when the opponent has 5 or more less Res than Def mimics the effect of adaptive damage without being identical. I guess maybe it was a bad idea to give Leif a refine and everyone is misusing his Light Brand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: I guess maybe it was a bad idea to give Leif a refine and everyone is misusing his Light Brand? I'm of the opinion that Leif doesn't really need a refinement since he's an upper-mid tier unit (A+, 4/10, on the Gamepedia tier list and 3/8 on the Gampress). On a side note, how is Quan that high on any tier list? For the rest: 11 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: Draug: Kestrel Stance, maybe? He needs Atk more than he does Def. Then again, that would be a little weak. Maybe the weapon at base could also have Guard (>=50% HP) on it. I'm not sure 4 extra speed on EP would be enough to warrant running a different seal over QR. Then again, with double Kestrel and agile stance, a speed boon Draug is hitting 49 speed which is fairly solid, even if it does eat up skill slots. That'd let him run Bold Fighter for PP and that setup for EP to get around things like Null Follow-up. The only issue is it'd take some expensive fodder and he'd only have 46 attack on PP. Also, would the guard effect be in addition to the Slaying effect? Tobin: Yeah, that’s a tough one. And none of his stats are high enough to do a Victory skill. Maybe Firestorm Boost 4, since he has nice HP? It's a bit more stats, but it's still basically the same issue. Tobin's probably one of those units that would need to either be relegated to niche or support or need a crazy broken weapon to be noteworthy. Arden: Earthen Blade (Basically a Def version of Heavy Blade) seems perfect to me, actually. I'd thought of Special Fighter, but this seems like it'd work quite well too. In bold because I was feeling lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: I'm of the opinion that Leif doesn't really need a refinement since he's an upper-mid tier unit (A+, 4/10, on the Gamepedia tier list and 3/8 on the Gampress). On a side note, how is Quan that high on any tier list? For the rest: In bold because I was feeling lazy. Tobin can have Infantry Pulse, then. Gonna go edit some stuffs now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) I still think Freddy needs a refine, and I really want it to be his Armored Axe from Warriors (and properly named Armored Axe, not Frederick's Axe. It's actually only Armored Axe in Japan. Frederick's Armored Axe to be exact, but it still has "Armored Axe" in the name). Armored Axe: Mt 16, grants Def+3, and/or keep the armor effectiveness that the hammer has. Unique refine: built-in Quick Reposte, Sturdy Stance, or maybe even Distant Counter. One of the three should work. Maybe even offer a second choice of unique refine that's more player phase oriented since Frederick can be really good in both depending on the build. He can run the brave axe and Death Blow combo really well as well as a defense build like mine. Edited January 19, 2019 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Anacybele said: I still think Freddy needs a refine, and I really want it to be his Armored Axe from Warriors (and properly named Armored Axe, not Frederick's Axe. It's actually only Armored Axe in Japan. Frederick's Armored Axe to be exact, but it still has "Armored Axe" in the name). Armored Axe: Mt 16, grants Def+3 Unique refine: built-in Quick Reposte, Sturdy Stance, or maybe even Distant Counter. One of the three should work. Maybe even offer a second choice of unique refine that's more player phase oriented since Frederick can be really good in both depending on the build. He can run the brave axe and Death Blow combo really well as well as a defense build like mine. Maybe make that default effect the armorslaying effect. Of the three unique refines, I would choose Sturdy Stance 2. Anyway, here is the next batch. @Ice Dragon @bottlegnomes @ILikeKirbys Spoiler -Eliwood: [Refined] Durandal: 16 might Default: Effective against dragons. Death Blow 3. Refine: Def Ploy 3 (I know, original) -Brave Roy/Eliwood: [Refined] Blazing Durandal: 16 might Default: (Same as before) Refine: Darting Blow 3 -Seth: Renain Blade: 16 might Default: Atk/Spd Bond 3 Refine: Wings of Mercy 3 -Joshua: [Refined] Audhulma: 16 might Default: (Same as before) Refine: Spd Ploy 3 -Marisa: Shamshir: 16 might Default: Wo effect Refine: Firestorm Boost 3 (Same as Luke’s but with Atk/Spd) Edited January 19, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper Revisions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrobin Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 Selena: Nohrian Claymore Base: Effective against Armors. +10 damage when Special triggers. Refine: Swap this unit's Attack and Speed (Weapon Might added to new Attack, not to Speed) Peri: Bloodthirsty Pike Base: -1 Special Cooldown. If, at start of combat, this unit's cooldown is lower than the enemies, +4 Attack/Speed. Refine: Special Boost (If unit activates special during or before combat, after combat, lower all allies' cooldowns by 1) Niles: Frostbane Bow Base: -1 Special Cooldown. Unit is effective against Fliers and Cavalry. Refine: Magic Blade (Heavy/Flashing Blade, compares Resistance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 @Azure the Scale Tipper That sounds good. That way, he by himself could give all of his teammates -2 cooldown. Definitely want to give it the HP bonus too though. I decided I'm going to compile a list of gen 1 weapons left. Alondite Dark Greatsword Durandal Ragnell Raijinto Siegfried Skuld? Grimoire Naglfar Valflame Bright Naginata Cursed Lance? Gae Bolg? Gradivus Leiptr Valaskjalf Wargod's Tome Armads Byleistr? Stout Tomohawk Urdr? Dark Excalibur Elivagar Thunderhead? Expiration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 @bottlegnomes What about my newest creations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: Maybe make that default effect the armorslaying effect. Of the three unique refines, I would choose Sturdy Stance 2. I edited in that it could also have the armorslaying effect, yeah. I'd not mind any of those refines. lol I just want Freddy to get a great refine that will work with the defense build I use on him. :P Edited January 19, 2019 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said: -Eliwood: [Refined] Durandal: 16 might Default: Effective against dragons. Death Blow 3.5. Refine: Def Ploy 3 (I know, original) I'd probably just go with DB3. Otherwise, seems good. -Brave Roy/Eliwood: [Refined] Blazing Durandal: 16 might Default: (Same as before) Refine: Swift Sparrow 2 It's already a gen 2 weapon, so this would give it three effects. This would also make Roy basically a hard upgrade of Siegbert offensively. Siegbert does have a better statline, but I'm not sure if that warrants Roy getting basically Dark Greatsword+. It'd be 38/55/38/26/24 with HB and an open seal slot and A slot vs 41/54/39/31/16 with an open A slot and the seal slot eaten by HB. -Seth: Sacred Silver: 16 might Default: If for wields a Weapon with extra effects added (Slaying Edge, Falchion, etc. Excludes this weapon and other weapons with this sort of effect.), grants +4 Atk/Spd during combat. Unit can use A-slot skills with the “Silver” prefix, and negates foe’s use of those same skills. (Weapons such as Silver Sword, Bolganone, and Beast Weapon [Adult] negate this effect.) Refine: Wings of Mercy 3 This seems overly complicated and the secondary effect, the A slot one, seems overly specialized. -Joshua: [Refined] Audhulma: 16 might Default: (Same as before) Refine: Spd Ploy 3 Also already a gen 2 weapon, just a weaker one. I guess along the same lines and as Cursed Lance, it could be considered gen 1.5. Setting that aside though, the refinement seems good. -Marisa: Shamshir: 16 might Default: Wo effect Refine: Firestorm Boost 4 (Same as Luke’s but with Atk/Spd) Looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure the Scale Tipper Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said: So, what then do I need to do to make these a little better? Edit: Well, I can make the following revisions: Durandal: DB3. No decimal allowed. Burandal: Change it to Darting Blow 3. If Slaying + Wo can be repeated, Darting Refine can do it too. Seth: Default can be Atk/Spd Bond 3 How can Silver Weapons be improved then, if there is a point to any further? Edited January 19, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper I can think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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