General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[XRay]

3 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Actually, that's an interesting point. Do those programmatically give actually all-range countering or do they give the user 1 or 2 range on EP? Based on that they're different skills, and I believe, restricted to certain weapon types, my guess would be the latter.

Still, a weapon that only a unit with a DC weapon or that runs DC, both of which are more common but still fairly rare, could counter it seems rather broken, especially with built-in DB3 and on a horse unit meaning effective 6 range and, barring terrain, a grand total of 12 safe tiles.

"Enables unit to counterattack regardless of distance to attacker."

I hope it is the former since it says regardless of distance. They can always make it an exclusive Weapon first to test it out, so they can stop releasing more if it is too overpowering.

[Ice Dragon]

14 hours ago, Marbels said:

the point is lore.

The only character that can be argued to get Basilikos by lore is Brendan.

Hawkeye has no more claim to Basilikos than any other character in Elibe outside of Brendan. Raven got it because they needed a weapon to give him, not because of any lore reason.

 

14 hours ago, Marbels said:

they can change the refine if they really want to.

No, they can't. They'd either have to give Raven the same refinement option or they'd have to make a new skill with the same name, at which point they might as well just give it a different name and a different sprite.

And before you try to mention Falchion, Falchion has three different refinements because there are three separate weapon skills with the same name. Note that Chrom, Lucina, and Masked Marth all have the exact same refinement; that's because they share the same weapon skill while Marth and Alm each have a different skill with the same name and therefore can have different refinements without needing to finagle with the system.

 

14 hours ago, Marbels said:

besides going from 25 to 35 spd and 49 to 59 atk with double LaD sounds like a clean deal.

35 Spd after having a +Spd nature, using your A slot, and using your refine is actually pretty damned pitiful. That's two speed tiers below 35 base Spd. 35 base Spd is considered fast because it has access to a +Spd nature (+3), a passive A skill (+3-6), and potentially also a refine (+3) to make it faster.

The effects that Hawkeye wants if he receives a unique weapon are effects like Close Def, Distant Def, Quick Riposte, Wrath, Wo Dao, Renewal, Guard, and Great Flame (with a different activation condition).

[bottlegnomes]

10 hours ago, XRay said:

"Enables unit to counterattack regardless of distance to attacker."

I hope it is the former since it says regardless of distance. They can always make it an exclusive Weapon first to test it out, so they can stop releasing more if it is too overpowering.

If it'd been just letting them counter all ranges programmatically, then it'd seem wasteful to make two separate skills for melee and ranged. My guess for the description is that's what it functionally does since no range >2 or <1 exists and it's easier to fit that in the allowed space. Having one shared skill would make it slightly easier to get, but it probably wouldn't change the economics of the skill significantly and it'd be one less thing to worry about during development. That said, it doesn't seem like it'd be terrible to change between releases, even if probably a big regression testing effort, and might give Camus a bit of a niche. Xander still be screwed because of WTD and low res. But we'd actually have to ask a data miner or someone to know for sure how the skill functions.

As for releasing it to test the waters, the problem is that once it's out they can't take it back without upsetting a ton of people. If they give it to Ursula as suggested, then we've got Reinhardt and Lyn all over again where it floods the meta and they need to start adding counters. If they give it to a rare character then there's more bitching about favoring paying players. The latter of those seems preferable but neither seems desirerable. Granted, that's if the skill is OP, though I'd be surprised if it weren't--even trenches wouldn't matter too much since you could just snipe over them.

Anyway, I like the idea someone suggested of just making it a firesweep tome, so 11 might like the bow and can't counter, but maybe add on -5 speed or make it so they can't double to balance it a little. Firesweep bow is already pretty scary and that's hitting the generally higher of the defensive stats.

Edited February 28, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Folt]

On 24.2.2018 at 1:47 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Not upset, just disappointed. And not because of her being Grima in Cipher and Warriors, but for the same reason I'm happy she's representing Grima in Cipher and Warriors.

Female Robin is cute. Male Robin is less cute. Still kind of cute, but less cute. You can never have too much evil Sawashiro Miyuki.

Well, up until the Princess Minerva map hit and Grima is now M!Robin.

On topic, the Askr trio, and Odin sure wants a buff. I'm happy that Leo is getting a refine to his tome too since while -Blade!Leo still works good, I do like Brynhildr's earth powers.

[Corrobin]

Well, now we can cross Leo, Eirika and Soren off the list.

[redlight]

A lot of people have noticed that Corrin's Yato on the Rival Domain's tutorial has a red glow. Yato refinement coming next update?

Edited March 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[bottlegnomes]

40 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Well, now we can cross Leo, Eirika and Soren off the list.

Can we though? He's still pretty meh. I guess he can kind of mage bait, but he's still better off running a blade tome and being on a horse team.

Edited March 8, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Vince777]

I wish they would not remove effects (like they did for Leo's) when they upgrade weapons and just add on it instead.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Vince777

[redlight]

15 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Can we though? He's still pretty meh. I guess he can kind of mage bait, but he's still better off running a blade tome and being on a horse team.

He shuts down bladetomes with refined Byrnhildr and Dull Distance. How exactly is that meh? Granted, you need SI for Dull Distance, but still. Leo just became anti-meta. This is much better than him using a bladetome.

14 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I wish they would not remove effects (like they did for Leo's) when they upgrade weapons and just add on it instead.

Gravity was pretty trash on him anyway. He's an enemy phase unit. This refinement is much better than some player phase gravity since it actually turns his mixed bulk into an advantage.

Edited March 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I wish they would not remove effects (like they did for Leo's) when they upgrade weapons and just add on it instead.

If you want the gravity effect, every cavalry staff user does the job better because even if Brynhildr had its effect buffed to exactly the same effect as Gravity+, Leo still doesn't have access to Dazzling Staff and has abysmal Spd for actually initiating combat.

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, silveraura25 said:

He shuts down bladetomes with refined Byrnhildr and Dull Distance. How exactly is that meh? Granted, you need SI for Dull Distance, but still. Leo just became anti-meta. This is much better than him using a bladetome.

30% reduction is nice but not massive and dulled distance is usable by any unit with decent res. Even with QR, neutral 43 attack isn't exactly stellar for killing things and with his speed, he's not doing well on PP. His def isn't exactly stellar either, so it's not entirely unreasonable for a mage to be within range between buffs and everything.

Blade tome Leo hits 72 attack with full horse buffs, vs 49 for Brynhildr with the same. That's a very big damage gap that means he could go from not killing an enemy to OHKOing. Add on Vantage and CC and that means he can counter melee too, something Brynhildr can't do effectively.

He was never garbage to begin with with enough investment, but I don't really see how this improves him significantly.

[redlight]

9 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

30% reduction is nice but not massive and dulled distance is usable by any unit with decent res. Even with QR, neutral 43 attack isn't exactly stellar for killing things and with his speed, he's not doing well on PP. His def isn't exactly stellar either, so it's not entirely unreasonable for a mage to be within range between buffs and everything.

Blade tome Leo hits 72 attack with full horse buffs, vs 49 for Brynhildr with the same. That's a very big damage gap that means he could go from not killing an enemy to OHKOing. Add on Vantage and CC and that means he can counter melee too, something Brynhildr can't do effectively.

He was never garbage to begin with with enough investment, but I don't really see how this improves him significantly.

True about any unit being able to use it, but it works well on him. His defense is pretty good if you give him horse buffs and a reliable A skill.
All I'm saying is that he can kill bladetome users with ease now. Perhaps even bows and daggers. Besides, enemies can also use Dulled Distant

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

30% reduction is nice but not massive and dulled distance is usable by any unit with decent res. Even with QR, neutral 43 attack isn't exactly stellar for killing things and with his speed, he's not doing well on PP. His def isn't exactly stellar either, so it's not entirely unreasonable for a mage to be within range between buffs and everything.

Blade tome Leo hits 72 attack with full horse buffs, vs 49 for Brynhildr with the same. That's a very big damage gap that means he could go from not killing an enemy to OHKOing. Add on Vantage and CC and that means he can counter melee too, something Brynhildr can't do effectively.

He was never garbage to begin with with enough investment, but I don't really see how this improves him significantly.

The build in question is Leo [+Atk/Def, -HP/Spd] (Brynhildr [unique], Moonbow, Distant Def 3, Dull Ranged 3, Quick Riposte 3).

The advantage of the build is the fact that very few ranged units are capable of double attacking at all because they lack the Def to break Brynhildr's effect (field buffs cannot be used to make up the difference, and few units run Armored Blow or its dual-stat versions), and this build is not reliant on field buffs for its performance meaning Panic, refined cavalry-effective weapons, and Dull Ranged cannot be used against him as effectively.

Builds that rely on field buffs are becoming riskier to use, and player-phase cavalry are more difficult to make use of due to the existence of trenches, but enemy-phase cavalry that use combat buffs are virtually unaffected.

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon Oh right, forgot DD would be considered in the effect. DD +Def makes the attack to one round him with a double 55 with is out of range of most BB users. Neutral brings that down to 51, which while attainable is still a bit high. 

Seems like this kind of turns him into a magical Berkut: respectable bulk EP cav but with less concrete bulk in exchange for not getting doubled. Suppose I'll have to play around with him to get a feel, but it feels like he got the least impressive upgrade of the 3. It's still a lot of investment for a decent until, which is where he was anyway. Granted, it gives him more of a niche.

As for trenches, even with how absurdly prevalent they are, they just make things more tedious than actually making things harder for cavs. 9/10 times, they make enemy cavs easier to handle more than they hinder my own.

@silveraura25 That was kind of my point. Leo went from decent but not astounding to decent but not astounding in a different way. I guess it does make Brynhildr worth a damn instead of something to be replaced ASAP.

Edited March 9, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Hilda]

24 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Ice Dragon Oh right, forgot DD would be considered in the effect. DD +Def makes the attack to one round him with a double 55 with is out of range of most BB users. Neutral brings that down to 51, which while attainable is still a bit high. 

Seems like this kind of turns him into a magical Berkut: respectable bulk EP cav but with less concrete bulk in exchange for not getting doubled. Suppose I'll have to play around with him to get a feel, but it feels like he got the least impressive upgrade of the 3. It's still a lot of investment for a decent until, which is where he was anyway. Granted, it gives him more of a niche.

As for trenches, even with how absurdly prevalent they are, they just make things more tedious than actually making things harder for cavs. 9/10 times, they make enemy cavs easier to handle more than they hinder my own.

@silveraura25 That was kind of my point. Leo went from decent but not astounding to decent but not astounding in a different way. I guess it does make Brynhildr worth a damn instead of something to be replaced ASAP.

I think the idea for trenches was to give Infantery units a fighting chances against cavalrys... which it did. i mean some old maps were just straight up almost brutal autoloss if you faced a Cavalry Team with Rein BLyn Blade tome Cecilia. Its supposed to nerf defense teams running Cavalry only.

In any case the Askr trio is in dire need of an upgrade...

I hope Alfonse gets a reversed Dragon Breath upgrade for his Folkvangr: When calculating damage recieved from foes with 2 range attack, allways the higher stat of DEF/RES is being used, coupled with a Brazen Atk/Def 3 or something like that. He is like beyond trash even for PVE content.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Hilda

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

I think the idea for trenches was to give Infantery units a fighting chances against cavalrys... which it did. i mean some old maps were just straight up almost brutal autoloss if you faced a Cavalry Team with Rein BLyn Blade tome Cecilia. Its supposed to nerf defense teams running Cavalry only.

I was thinking their goal was to encourage varied team composition, but that makes much more sense, and in that regard they succeeded in spades.

Also, that Alphonse effect sounds cool, but wouldn't that effectively be the same as always use defense?

[redlight]

Mae really needs a refine. Something to increase her spd, but her atk is actually pretty good.
Seraphim (14 Mt)- If foe has 100% HP at the start of combat, unit receives Atk/Spd+4. If attacking, unit will receive 4 damage after combat.
Refinement effect-  After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target preventing counterattacks through their next actions.

[Reiska]

On 2/28/2018 at 9:35 AM, Ice Dragon said:

And before you try to mention Falchion, Falchion has three different refinements because there are three separate weapon skills with the same name. Note that Chrom, Lucina, and Masked Marth all have the exact same refinement; that's because they share the same weapon skill while Marth and Alm each have a different skill with the same name and therefore can have different refinements without needing to finagle with the system.

If I'm not mistaken, the various Falchions actually have different names from each other in Japanese to distinguish them, too.

[Ice Dragon]

59 minutes ago, Reiska said:

If I'm not mistaken, the various Falchions actually have different names from each other in Japanese to distinguish them, too.

Not in this game, they don't.

[redlight]

Raigh
Apocalypse (14 Mt): At the start of each turn, inflicts Res-7 on foe on the enemy team with the highest Def through its next action.
Refinement option: If unit's Res - foe's Res ≥ +1, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Stahl
Sol Blade (16 Mt): If Special triggers, heal 50% of damage dealt.
Refinement option: If unit receives consecutive attacks, damage from second attack onward reduced by 80%.

Shanna
Maltet (16 Mt): Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1).
Refinement option: Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks.

Ogma
Mercurious (16 Mt): At start of turn, bonuses become penalties on all foes in cardinal directions with HP 1 or more lower than unit through foe's next action.
Refinement option: If Special triggers, heal 30% of damage dealt. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by silveraura25

[Vince777]

I will feel bad for Astram when Mercurius inevitably ends up on another Archanean unit, robbing him of his only chance to ever be included in this game.

:(

Would probably doom Midia and her gang in the same move. 

[Djing]

Henry

Goetia (14 mt): If attacked, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1. (If using other similar skill, only highest value applied.)

Refinement Option: During combat, if unit's Atk is less than the opponents, use the enemy's base attack for damage calculation.

 

Saber

Ilwoon (16 mt): Grants Atk+7 during combat if unit initiates attack. If attacking, unit will receive 5 damage after combat.

Refinement Option: If in combat against foe using magic, unit receives 50% less damage from the first attack.

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken (14 mt): After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
Damage calculated using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

Refinement Option: Fury 3 and Wrath 3.

[redlight]

10 hours ago, Vince777 said:

I will feel bad for Astram when Mercurius inevitably ends up on another Archanean unit, robbing him of his only chance to ever be included in this game.

:(

Would probably doom Midia and her gang in the same move. 

He got Merurius only after the events of Shadow Dragon. Mercurious is fair game to all sword wielders in Shadow Dragon.

[Hilda]

8 hours ago, Djing said:

Henry

Goetia (14 mt): If attacked, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1. (If using other similar skill, only highest value applied.)

Refinement Option: During combat, if unit's Atk is less than the opponents, use the enemy's base attack for damage calculation.

 

Saber

Ilwoon (16 mt): Grants Atk+7 during combat if unit initiates attack. If attacking, unit will receive 5 damage after combat.

Refinement Option: If in combat against foe using magic, unit receives 50% less damage from the first attack.

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken (14 mt): After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
Damage calculated using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

Refinement Option: Fury 3 and Wrath 3.

id like to keep the smoke dagger effect please on saizo. He is the partner in crime for gunnthra

[Vince777]

5 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

He got Merurius only after the events of Shadow Dragon. Mercurious is fair game to all sword wielders in Shadow Dragon.

Yes, I'm aware, but that is still his best chance to get into the game and if Mercurius is on anyone else, it pretty much guarantees his exclusion from Heroes.

Besides, Jeorge did get the Parthia.