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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


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37 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Yes, I'm aware, but that is still his best chance to get into the game and if Mercurius is on anyone else, it pretty much guarantees his exclusion from Heroes.

Besides, Jeorge did get the Parthia.

That is true, but having another unit get the same weapon as you should doesn't mean you can't get that weapon

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58 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Yes, I'm aware, but that is still his best chance to get into the game and if Mercurius is on anyone else, it pretty much guarantees his exclusion from Heroes.

I don’t think that’s the case. Plenty of other heroes share weapons, some of which a better version of the original weapon, in which that one can be refined too. Also I think just because someone had weapon someone else was expected to have (like Linus with Basilikos and Knoll with Gleipnir), I don’t think that’s a death sentence to the original wielder of the weapon.

Besides, I doubt people will really be disappointed over Astram being absent. :P

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2 hours ago, SilvertheShadow said:

 

Besides, I doubt people will really be disappointed over Astram being absent. :P

And here's why. He's a very secondary character. There's no high demand for him.

So basically all he's got going for him is Mercurius.

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15 hours ago, SilvertheShadow said:

I don’t think that’s the case. Plenty of other heroes share weapons, some of which a better version of the original weapon, in which that one can be refined too. Also I think just because someone had weapon someone else was expected to have (like Linus with Basilikos and Knoll with Gleipnir), I don’t think that’s a death sentence to the original wielder of the weapon.

Besides, I doubt people will really be disappointed over Astram being absent. :P

I'd like to see every character in the game eventually.

That said, some characters really aren't popular enough to ever put as the centerpiece of a new hero focus and should just be released directly into the 4* (or 3*!) pools.  Astram is probably one of such.

As for the actual thread topic, Clarisse needs a unique weapon added to her like Caeda got so she actually has a niche next to Fallen Takumi.

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Well. Guess I'll do this too.

MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: 14 MT - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: 14 MT - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively.

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: 16 MT - Grants +6 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 50% and foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone, unit makes followup attack and foe cannot.

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +10 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from unit and foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Infantry and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Accelerates Special Trigger -1 and +30% to damage upon activation.

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - Accelerates special trigger -1, if unit initiates combat, grants ATK +4 and special cooldown +1. unit loses 5 health after combat.
  • Refinement: For every 5 HP lost, unit is granted an additional +3 to ATK during combat. Unit loses an additional 5 HP after combat.

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage included)

Arthur Icon Portrait Arthur.png

  • Justice Axe: MT - 16 Gives Atk+20% if weapon-triangle advantage, Atk-20% if disadvantage.
  • Refinement: If affinity disadvantage exists, weapon triangle affinity granted by unit's weapon is negated.

Lloyd Icon Portrait Lloyd.png

  • Regal Blade: MT - 16 - If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd+2 during combat.
  • Refinement: If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat. If foe uses sword, unit makes a guaranteed followup attack and foe cannot.

How do you like them apples?

Obligatory tagging of Gurus and high level players. It's always nice to get an educated opinion. @Ice Dragon @XRay @Astellius @LordFrigid @Hawk King

I'll tag friends I guess too since it's neat to get opinions on balance for older units. Seriously guys if this kinda thing annoys you let me know. @mcsilas @Poimagic @Rafiel's Aria @mampfoid @Johann @eclipse @Fei Mao

  • EDIT: Added Lon'Qu.
  • EDIT 2: Added Arthur & Lloyd.
Edited by Zeo
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My thinking that Camilla is placed high on the refinery list blocks my Camilla merges. because I want to have her best Boon/Bane according to the weapon she would get. And I have no idea what the effect could be D=.

Athena is also a personal wish from me, but I still don't think she has a chance to get her exclusiv weapon.

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11 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

I am not sure about a 16 might slim lance. :)

Would ya rather have her wield Rex Hasta which is too heavy for her?
Then again, they gave her Heavy Lance, might explain the loss of speed

Edited by silveraura25
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Well ever since Felicia got her refine I have wanted Jakob to get one to I thought it could be something like this:

Jakob's tray

+3 Def to wielder and deals -2 Def and -2 Res to enemy if unit attacks first.

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Jakob's Tray (14 Mt)- After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. If foe uses sword, lance, axe, or breath, damage from first attack received by unit during combat reduced by 30%.
Refinement- Enables unit to counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Edited by silveraura25
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@Zeo - Someone's been busy. I think more than anything, I'd like to see Odin get a refinement, but it'd have to be something amazing to fix him... Henry too. Replaying Awakening has reignited my love for Owain and Henry. I had totally forgotten that they were actually GOOD units. Other than that, Lon'qu's seems a bit dangerous. I don't think he's that bulky to begin with, so getting enemy-phase Swift Sparrow wouldn't benefit him that much, but that refinement seems really broken. Like...slap DC on him, and he'll be pretty scary.

 

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14 hours ago, Zeo said:

Well. Guess I'll do this too.

MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: 14 MT - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: 14 MT - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively.

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: 16 MT - Grants +6 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 50% and foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone, unit makes followup attack and foe cannot.

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +10 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from unit and foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Infantry and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Accelerates Special Trigger -1 and +30% to damage upon activation.

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - Accelerates special trigger -1, if unit initiates combat, grants ATK +4 and special cooldown +1. unit loses 5 health after combat.
  • Refinement: For every 5 HP lost, unit is granted an additional +3 to ATK during combat. Unit loses an additional 5 HP after combat.

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage include)

 

Mathews weapon: Is fine and makes him more tanky, but its a bit OP in my opinion about the higher DEF/RES part. It should have a restriction makeing it only work on close combat foes or ranged combat foes, i guess you would want to go for ranged combat foes. This leaves him still weak for Dragons. Then it would be fine.

Odins Weapon: Is underwhelming for Odin. His attack is low and the +6 attack wont matter, because even then he will not be able to break 50 atk even with Atk boon and death blow.
I would go for: If unit initiates attack, unit will allways copy foes ATK into own calculations. If units RES or DEF over foe RES or DEF then foe can not make any follow up attack.
This should ensure enough firepower for Odin and makes him somewhat tanky, while not being able to abuse close counter on enemy phase. That way you can focus on his RES/DEF stat to make him bulky and prevent follow up attacks, while your firepower doesnt suffer during player phase (but he will have shit firepower during enemy phase).

Firs Weapon: The refinement doesnt help Fir much, she is allready a fast unit so she will most of the time do a follow up attack. besides it only works against those units she excells at anyway. I would give her a windsweep built in effect into her weapon, that way she can safely also poke melee units if she outspeeds them (and it doesnt brake her due to her low attack).

Rebecca: The Close counter refinement is kinda wasted, she doesnt have the physical bulk to withstand one round. I think Chill speed would work excellent for her, that way she can debuff the SPD of the fastest unit and maybe guarantee that way a kill on that unit coupled with her 1. effect. I am still not sure if +10 atk is broken on thise one, due to her low DEF it kinda is guaranteed to activate most of the time.

Florina: looks fine in my eyes, suits her well as a magical tank. The refinement should be restricted to mages, dragonstone users and staves and work 100% of the time.

Lillina: The refinement is interesting but wasted, +30% dmg doesnt help much on a Special when the foe takes 0 dmg (or single digit) from it, this can happen quite alot against high RES units (like Clair, Florina etc.) Change it to: The special AoE damage is allways checked agaisnt the foes lower stat of DEF / RES. that way she can allways get mileage out of it. especially when hitting multiple targets.

Bartre: Is in my eyes perfect and makes use of his high HP pool, with a Desperation Seal this could be a very deadly combo. I like it

Lonqu: like this one, but i would change the 1. effect to brazen spd/atk, that would synergyze very well and make him very deadly once below 80% HP.$

I like the ideas

 

 

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@Zeo Wait, I'm a guru now?

Matthew: I caught a bit of the discussion on this one in General yesterday. Forcing the foe to target the higher of the unit's Def or Res stat seems like an interesting mechanic.

Odin: "consecutively" as in, brave weapon style? I agree that Odin needs something nice, but that seems overtuned. With that tome, and +Atk/Death Blow 3/Attack +3 Seal, Odin would achieve 54 Atk before buffs, which is on par with +1 Reinhardt using the same kit. What would you think about having the base effect be more in line with what they've done with other Crit-based weapons and accelerate the Special trigger? Doubly valid proposition because of his special quotes. I'm not sure what the refined effect would change to.

Roy: Isn't it "Binding Blade"? I'm on the fence about breaking the precedent of only-breaths-have-additional-effects-beyond-DC, especially since it's also being combined with not one, but two other strong A Passives. Perhaps the refined effect could be something that plays more off of these defensive aspects.

Fir: For the base effect, you might as well bump up the Res boost to +5 to match Audhulma. On the refined effect, that's too much breaker, imo, especially since it includes Blue Breath & Tomes (and really shouldn't to begin with).

Rebecca: Close Counter bow, huh...that seems pretty interesting, though it seems to clash with the base effect, which rewards dumping Def. Maybe reduce the amount the base effect gives, and make the refined effect also Atk-related? Something like base: "During combat, if foe's Def ≥ unit's Def+3, grants Atk+6", refined: "If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6". That kind of Atk bonus might be a bit generous, tbh.

Florina: I feel like the base and refined effects counteract each other a little bit, unless you plan on just Glimmer/Moonbow-ing enemy mages to death.

Lilina: Maybe restrict the effectiveness to either Infantry or Flier so it's not just Excalibur, but better. Actually...Lilina-level Atk and personal-tome-level Mt with Infantry effectiveness is pretty silly in itself, especially given that enemy Res tends to be lower than enemy Def. I think the AoE-boosting effect is a pretty intriguing, though.

Bartre: Base effect definitely needs to be "If unit's special activates by attacking, damage dealt by unit's special is also dealt to unit (unit takes sum of damage dealt by specials that deal damage to an area)". Wow, there is a lot going on with that Axe. I think it plays well with Fury+Brash+Desperation...a little too well, if I'm being honest. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with anything that didn't make it either worse-Hauteclere or kinda-Mystletainn so...*shrug*.

Lon'qu: I'd at least restrict the refined effect to when attacked only, because as it is it's Desperation 4 + ... um ... Super-Vantage? Vantage-for-Follow-Ups? I'm not really sure what to call that.

I tried to provide alternate suggestions where I could, unfortunately I couldn't do that for all of them.

Edit: I might have a closer look at Arthur and Lloyd later.

34 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Odins Weapon: Is underwhelming for Odin. His attack is low and the +6 attack wont matter, because even then he will not be able to break 50 atk even with Atk boon and death blow.

25 (+Atk) + 14 (Tome Mt) + 6 (Tome Effect) + 6 (Death Blow) = 51, though.

Edited by LordFrigid
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@Zeo I like your ideas! Well, a couple of them seem like they might be a bit OP to me)... I'll go item by item here:

Matthew: It's pretty unique among dagger-ers, and the higher-of-DEF/RES damage calculation effect sounds really good. Dragons would probably still murder him (since they'd probably cancel out his effect with their refined-breath effect, so they'd end up targeting his RES), but every other magic user would most likely have trouble with him. I would raise my Matthew to 5-Star for sure if he got this.
Odin: I was underwhelmed by this at first, but then I realized that a +SPD/-HP Odin with Brazen ATK/SPD 3 (and inside Brazen ATK/SPD 3 range) initiating combat while receiving buffs from ATK Tactic 3, and Grima's Truth (for SPD) would have effective stats of [40 HP / 55 ATK / 47 SPD / 25 DEF / 25 RES], making him capable of quadding fairly reliably (even without the Grima's Truth for his SPD, he'd still have 42, which is pretty good) and dealing quite a lot of damage as he does. Granted, that would require quite a lot of investment, but it would make Odin pretty good. So, good refinement. I don't have a good Odin, so I wouldn't raise mine to 5-Star for this, but if I got a good one and he got this I would definitely consider it.
Roy: I don't think IntSys will add Distant or Close Counter to weapons via Refinery. That's a pretty good refinement though. I'd hope to pull a Roy that isn't either -ATK or -SPD if he got this.
Fir: RES +3 effect aside (don't think they'll give stat bonuses to weapons that can be refined, though if they did then this would probably be the one Fir would get... that or SPD), Magicbreaker 3 is amazing and I want it to be her thing please. Not sure I'd raise up that Fir I keep around for no real reason if she got this, but maybe.
Rebecca: See Roy for my thoughts on it getting Close Counter. The ATK +10 feels a bit high to me, but I could see it happening. I have a Rebecca at 5-Star, and I'd definitely consider using her if she got this.
Florina: Giving Florina Wary Fighter seems like a good idea to me. Also Warding Blade on her weapon is a great idea. Still probably wouldn't use Florina if she got this, but that's mostly because Hinoka and Catria fulfill my lance-flier needs... though if Florina got this, and I got a +RES one, maybe I could add a third to that...
Lilina: Infantry+Flying effectiveness is... well I didn't expect Flying (if it was gonna be dual-effective, I would've guessed Infantry+Armored), but I like it. The AOE-specific Special buff is nice too, works quite well with her default skillset. If she got this, I'd finally raise my +ATK/-SPD Lilina to 5-Star just to use Forblaze.
Bartre: Works damn well with his default skillset, especially the refinement-skill since he's probably gonna lose HP really quickly. I like it. Dunno if I'd use him, since I don't like units who eat through their HP as quickly as this Bartre would, but I like it.
Lon'qu: The default effect seemed weird at first, but the refinement-skill makes it make sense. I like it. Wouldn't use Lon'qu, I have too many good swords already, but it's still good.
Arthur: I feel like Justice Axe might be too good with the refinement-skill. Maybe if it just negated WTD instead of reversing it I'd be fine with it, but as it is it just seems too strong to me. I mean, I'd definitely use Arthur if he got this, because it looks really good, but it looks a little bit OP to me.
Lloyd: Giving him Swordbreaker on his weapon... I'm honestly surprised that breakers haven't been added to weapons yet outside of the Assassin's Bow. Also the expanded regular effect is much better than what he gets now. I like it. Might consider using one of the Lloyd copies that I have if he got this.

I've got a few thoughts on the matter of several units who I feel could use refinements in the future too. Not sure how good any of these are, but here, have many thoughts:

Alfonse: The free swordfighter of Heroes is pretty strong and fairly bulky, if only on the physical side, but I think he needs something more to stand out after over a year of powercreep:
Folkvangr [Refine]: Grants ATK/DEF +7 during combat when HP < 80% at start of combat.
Refinement-Skill: When unit's ATK - foe's ATK < 3, this unit performs a follow-up attack.

Sharena: Because I like Sharena and would like a reason to use her more:
Fensalir [Refine]: At start of turn, inflicts ATK/SPD/DEF/RES -4 on foes within 2 spaces through their next action.
Refinement-Skill: Grants bonus ATK/SPD/DEF/RES equal to penalties on foe during combat. [Each stat's bonus is calculated separately, so a foe with -4 ATK/-5 SPD/-7 DEF/-7 DEF would give Sharena +4 ATK/+5 SPD/+7 DEF/+7 RES... dunno how to explain that very well]

Anna: Because I'm doing the Askr twins, might as well do the Commander as well:
Noatun [Refine]: This unit can warp adjacent to any ally when own HP < 75%.
Refinement-Skill: Grants ATK/SPD +5 during combat when adjacent to at least one ally.

Roy: Yeah, the original version of our boy needs something rather sizable to stand out among the sea of sword users in Heroes:
Binding Blade [Refine]: Grants DEF/RES +6 during combat. Grants ATK +6 when in combat vs. Breath.
Refinement-Skill: Recover 10 HP at the start of each turn.

Robin: The Robins are alright, but they could use something to help with their just-okay-for-the-most-part stats:
Robin's Primer: During combat, grants bonus ATK/SPD/DEF/RES equal to number of adjacent allies x2.
Refinement-Skill: Grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 to adjacent allies during combat.

Frederick: I'm not sure if he needs one, I just had an idea I liked for this:
Frederick's Axe: Grants ATK/DEF +5 to this unit during combat when adjacent to at least one ally.
Refinement-Skill: This unit and enemies cannot perform follow-up attacks when this unit's HP < 50% at start of combat.

Gaius: Not sure this would actually be all that great for him, but here's something that will hopefully make this thief sweet... or at least more palatable:
Gaius's Confect: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts DEF/RES -6 to target and enemies within 2 spaces through their next action; Grants DEF/RES +6 to this unit and allies within 2 spaces through their next action. After any combat this unit initiates, this unit recovers 10 HP and adjacent allies recover 7 HP.
Refinement-Skill: Grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +6 during combat when this unit's HP - foe's HP < 3 at start of combat.

Jakob: Because Felicia got a refinement, might as well give him one. Dunno if this one would actually be all that great for him tho:
Jakob's Tray: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts DEF/RES -7 to target and enemies within 2 spaces through their next action. Grants DEF/RES +5 to this unit and adjacent allies during combat when adjacent to at least one ally at start of combat.
Refinement-Skill: Inflicts Special Charge -1 on enemies when this unit has HP > 50% at start of combat.

M!Corrin: I'm gonna make three of these, because if anyone's going to get a multiple-choice refinement, it's Corrin:

1) Blazing Yato: Special Cooldown -1. Grants ATK/SPD +4 when this unit initiates combat.
Refinement-Skill: At the start of Turn 1, grants Special Charge -1.

2) Shadow Yato: Special Cooldown -1. Grants DEF/RES +4 when attacked.
Refinement-Skill: At the start of each turn, inflicts ATK/SPD/DEF/RES -4 on the enemy with the lowest HP.

3) Omega Yato: Special Cooldown -1. Grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +2 during combat.
Refinement-Skill: When Special activates, resolve combat as though foe's DEF/RES were reduced by 30%.

Edited by ILikeKirbys
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3 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Wait, I'm a guru now?

That's what I was thinking.

18 hours ago, Zeo said:

Well. Guess I'll do this too.

MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: 14 MT - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: 14 MT - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively.

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: 16 MT - Grants +6 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 50% and foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone, unit makes followup attack and foe cannot.

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +10 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from unit and foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Infantry and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Accelerates Special Trigger -1 and +30% to damage upon activation.

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - Accelerates special trigger -1, if unit initiates combat, grants ATK +4 and special cooldown +1. unit loses 5 health after combat.
  • Refinement: For every 5 HP lost, unit is granted an additional +3 to ATK during combat. Unit loses an additional 5 HP after combat.

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage included)

Arthur Icon Portrait Arthur.png

  • Justice Axe: MT - 16 Gives Atk+20% if weapon-triangle advantage, Atk-20% if disadvantage.
  • Refinement: If affinity disadvantage exists, weapon triangle affinity granted by unit's weapon is negated.

Lloyd Icon Portrait Lloyd.png

  • Regal Blade: MT - 16 - If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd+2 during combat.
  • Refinement: If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat. If foe uses sword, unit makes a guaranteed followup attack and foe cannot.

Matthew - your attempts of coming up with something unique and original always end up being a little bit too broken.

Odin - is that a brave effect? Cause if he can Quad that is a little too broken. 14 MT is enough to fix him, the built in Death Blow goes a little too far though. + 6 Spd would be a little more balanced. 

Roy - looks good! Maybe +4 to Def/Res but otherwise, exactly what I want and think about for him for an upgrade.

Fir - so it is a breaker skill for staves, Dragonstones, and ALL MAGIC? Kinda odd since she needs DC to take full advantage of it, and many Staves have Dazzling which would negate it. Plus she is faster than and would double all of the Dragons already except for Myrrh with her Great Flame.

Rebecca - +10 Atk is a little bit ridiculous no matter what the situation is. +6 would fall in line with skills like Death Blow 3 and Fierce Stance 3. Built in CC on a bow from FE7 just makes no sense. While I would like to see built in CC, Reinfleche is not the bow I'm thinking of. I would like to see whatever bow Shinon comes with have it.

Florina - sorry no. Slim Lance is such a basic weapon. If Flo ever got something it would certainly be "Florina's Lance." The effects seem fine but I just don't think Flo is special enough to ever warrant a unique weapon. At least not before a lot of other units get theirs.

Lilina - I would love something for her since she just decided to pity break me for the 5th time. Effective against Infantry is just a little too much, especially with her massive Atk stat and a 14 MT weapon. There is a reason Poison Dagger only has 5 MT and is still really good. And the +30% is not necessary. AoE skills already ignore WTA and all skills.

Bartre - You are just putting too many effects on one weapon. The +3 Atk for 5 HP lost is way too much when you consider he can gain over 30 extra Atk on a" killer" weapon with a built in cooldown reduction effect. Brash Assault/Desperation combo would allow him to kill everything and proc Galeforce.

Lon'qu - everything was perfectly fine until - (Vantage included). I don't want to have to start running Hardy Bearing on my teams.

Arthur - love it. And it extremely tame compared to your other ideas.

Lloyd - again perfect. Right on par with actual in-game stuff that we are currently getting.

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@Zeo Interesting stuff,  Matthew, Bartre, and Arthur's idea seems pretty neat. I think it would be cool if Fir were to get her own version of flashing blade to help boost her offense a bit.

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I am more of a Player Phase ranged person, so I do not think I am the best at commenting on melee units.

18 hours ago, Zeo said:

MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: 14 MT - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

For the Refinement, I will change it to the unit's highest stat between Atk/Spd/Def/Res, since Matthew gets 37 Atk (neutral+Weapon+Refinement) compared to 30 Def, so using Def to calculate damage seems like a nerf. That way, you can stack whatever stat you want on Matthew to use him for either phase.

18 hours ago, Zeo said:

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: 14 MT - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively.

Well, I love Brave tomes!

18 hours ago, Zeo said:

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: 16 MT - Grants +6 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Personally, I am fine with it, although others might not be. Keep in mind that I am not that great at using melee units, so I do not mind buffing Distant Counter melee units. BH!Lyn is free and Reinhardt is available as a 4*, and I run both, so buffing a red Distant Counter sword unit is like the least of my worries.

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 50% and foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone, unit makes followup attack and foe cannot.

That is pretty cool, definitely helps her taking out magical units.

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +10 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

I am not sure about Close Counter since Brave users can just kill her in two hits before she gets the chance to counter attack. I would just use Speed Refinement and keep her as a Player Phase unit with Desperation.

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from unit and foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Nice. That is what Quick Riposte-Quick Riposte is for!

18 hours ago, Zeo said:

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Infantry and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Accelerates Special Trigger -1 and +30% to damage upon activation.

I would go for Special cooldown charge +1 instead to speed up the Special activation even faster. Lilina is a bit slow so she might not activate it in time, and area of effect Specials are better at the beginning of a battle than later since there are more enemies around. However, I would be careful when using her around enemies with Vantage, so maybe you might want to add in another effect to disable Vantage on enemy units or something.

4 hours ago, Hilda said:

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - Accelerates special trigger -1, if unit initiates combat, grants ATK +4 and special cooldown +1. unit loses 5 health after combat.
  • Refinement: For every 5 HP lost, unit is granted an additional +3 to ATK during combat. Unit loses an additional 5 HP after combat.

That sounds fun. If you want to be obnoxious, Bartre can run Distant Counter-Vantage on a defense team!

4 hours ago, Hilda said:

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage include)

Sounds fun. I guess he is going to team up with someone with Infantry Pulse so he can always activate Moonbow on the second hit.

 

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18 hours ago, Zeo said:

Well. Guess I'll do this too.

MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: 14 MT - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: 14 MT - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively.

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: 16 MT - Grants +6 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 50% and foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone, unit makes followup attack and foe cannot.

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +10 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from unit and foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Infantry and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Accelerates Special Trigger -1 and +30% to damage upon activation.

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - Accelerates special trigger -1, if unit initiates combat, grants ATK +4 and special cooldown +1. unit loses 5 health after combat.
  • Refinement: For every 5 HP lost, unit is granted an additional +3 to ATK during combat. Unit loses an additional 5 HP after combat.

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage included)

Arthur Icon Portrait Arthur.png

  • Justice Axe: MT - 16 Gives Atk+20% if weapon-triangle advantage, Atk-20% if disadvantage.
  • Refinement: If affinity disadvantage exists, weapon triangle affinity granted by unit's weapon is negated.

Lloyd Icon Portrait Lloyd.png

  • Regal Blade: MT - 16 - If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd+2 during combat.
  • Refinement: If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat. If foe uses sword, unit makes a guaranteed followup attack and foe cannot.

How do you like them apples?

Obligatory tagging of Gurus and high level players. It's always nice to get an educated opinion. @Ice Dragon @XRay @Astellius @LordFrigid @Hawk King

I'll tag friends I guess too since it's neat to get opinions on balance for older units. Seriously guys if this kinda thing annoys you let me know. @mcsilas @Poimagic @Rafiel's Aria @mampfoid @Johann @eclipse @Fei Mao

  • EDIT: Added Lon'Qu.
  • EDIT 2: Added Arthur & Lloyd.

Sure, sounds like fun.

Matthew sounds interesting.

Looking at other people's comments, I guess I'm not clear on Odin's effect. I assumed that it was just a Desperation effect, but others seem to be saying Brave? Brave seems like a bit much. Desperation seems fine.

Roy definitely needs that DC! But I think that DC is a strong enough effect in itself that I'm not sure he really needs more than that. His current Binding Blade has +2 to Def/Res when attacked, and that would carry over with the refinement.

I use Fir, and the effects for her sound pretty underwhelming without DC. Her Res is high enough that +3 isn't all that important (esp. if she's not running DC), and she's fast enough to get doubles most of the time naturally. She really wants more Atk, probably more Spd too. Maybe give her some sort of Swift Sparrow + Wo Dao effect instead? That seems more reasonable than breaker effects.

For Rebecca, she really can't make good use of Close Counter, and +10 Atk is way too much. At most, it could be a Death Blow effect.

Florina. Not a slim lance, or, if she does get a slim lance, it would be weak but really boost her speed. Maybe Rex Hasta? The effect sounds fine for her.

Lilina. She really deserves a Forblaze upgrade! But I find the AoE skills to be quite underwhelming, so that effect sounds pretty limiting to me. And, canonically, if it's going to be effective against something, it should be effective against dragons. Fliers can be included, so that wyvern riders would be covered. And infantry struggles enough in the current meta as it is, so there's no need for an effectiveness there.

Bartre. He can just get too much Atk from that, it's unbalanced, and it seems too complicated. I feel like some sort of Fury effect, or Sturdy Blow effect would be better, so that he can make better use of his native Brash Assault. Or perhaps the recoil from the Devil Axe could be lethal? That would be interesting, and a good way to import the actual effects of the Devil Axe from the games. But it's an interesting idea!

Lon'qu. The Vantage included is too much. If he had DC, he'd be pretty much untouchable but for Hardy Bearing and Firesweep weapons.

Arthur. Sounds good, looks like a reasonable set of effects. I like it.

Lloyd. The Swordbreaker effect is too much, in my opinion. I think the Spectrum+4 if foe is 100% is already quite a strong effect. At most, maybe give him a stat+3.

 

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Clarisse
Kleine's Bow (14 Mt)- Effective against flying units. Unit and enemies cannot use counterattacks.
Refinement- After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-6 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.

Edited by silveraura25
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2 hours ago, Hilda said:

I like the ideas

Thank you. I'll do responses to all of you. @LordFrigid and @Hawk King you may not be "Gurus" but you operate at or near the highest levels of the game so you've probably seen a lot of what the most powerful units have to offer. So you probably have that bit of insight into how some of these units would measure up (or wouldn't) against them as well as the rest of the game.

I'm going to put my responses in spoilers so I don't fill the entire page with this book long post.

@Astellius I responded to you late in this post, so my responses to you will be near the bottom. I likely won't be able to edit this post since it's so large, so I'm going to make sure to get everything out here. 

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

Matthews weapon: Is fine and makes him more tanky, but its a bit OP in my opinion about the higher DEF/RES part. It should have a restriction makeing it only work on close combat foes or ranged combat foes, i guess you would want to go for ranged combat foes. This leaves him still weak for Dragons. Then it would be fine.

2 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Matthew: I caught a bit of the discussion on this one in General yesterday. Forcing the foe to target the higher of the unit's Def or Res stat seems like an interesting mechanic.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Matthew: It's pretty unique among dagger-ers, and the higher-of-DEF/RES damage calculation effect sounds really good. Dragons would probably still murder him (since they'd probably cancel out his effect with their refined-breath effect, so they'd end up targeting his RES), but every other magic user would most likely have trouble with him. I would raise my Matthew to 5-Star for sure if he got this.

12 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Matthew - your attempts of coming up with something unique and original always end up being a little bit too broken.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: I don't think it's too OP, just insanely good because here's the thing. Matthew has 30 DEF. 34 at +10 and 40 with Rogue Dagger/Leila's Keepsake with a 6 point reduction on the enemy so that's basically 46 DEF. Thing is, unless he runs Wind or Watersweep (which kills his ability to double) against opponents that can counter, he has to eat a counterattack to his base 34 DEF which is significant damage when we're facing high ATK units regardless of weather they're mages or physical, the numbers get silly when we're fighting units like Ayra, Zelgius, Ike, Nino etc and against most of those units Matthew has to eat at least one attack before the buffs come into play (not to mention 38-41 SPD without buffs isn't that much at the highest levels if he's running Close Counter instead of a stat booster). He can run Close or Distant DEF to become a tower against whichever unit he chooses, but he's still susceptible to Raven tomes, special procs (like Luna) and especially units with Wrath that can cut through his defenses. Then we remember Matthew's low ATK and that he's not exactly one-rounding these units so he has to go a couple of rounds unless he procs Bonfire/Ignis which means he's likely eating their specials as well.

Most prominently. Dragons' weapons have a special effect that target's the lower of the foe's DEF/RES. If these two effects are clashing then they would cancel eachother out like Wary Fighter and a Breaker and the units would do battle normally, meaning the Dragons would still target his RES and so this weapon does basically nothing against them and he gets destroyed same as before.

LordFrigid: A mechanic like this could really break the game depending on the unit. Like if this was on a unit like Lukas, there would be a serious cause for alarm. But for a unit like Matthew with a respectable level of DEF.

ILikeKirbys: It would certainly promote him as an individual unit. Though his supporting capabilities might take a drop since he's trading the DEF/RES boost to his allies. ATK is always nice too though.

Hawk King: Powerful, but not broken by a long shot. It's almost in the same vein as Sigurd's dual damage reducers and Felicia targeting the weaker stat of every unit in the entire game (+ breath on everything involving magic). Then we aren't going to mention the fact that Eirika can buff so many stats that she can get over +12 to all stats in a single round of combat.

Matthew with his more modest (but high end) DEF stat he can be killed outright in more than a few scenarios. Like against just about any Vengeful Fighter (or even Quick Riposte) Armor as well as Dragons and units with the ATK power to cut through his defenses. He actually has to attack to get the boosts and every Matthew isn't running Close Counter. My response to Hilda pretty much covers why this would be doable. His inferiority and hard-losses to Dragons and Armors alone would keep him out of the highest tiers if we were debating the best units in the game. If this particular effect were on a unit a bit more min-maxed however, like a true RES or DEF tank, then I could see where it would be nonsense.

 

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

Odins Weapon: Is underwhelming for Odin. His attack is low and the +6 attack wont matter, because even then he will not be able to break 50 atk even with Atk boon and death blow. I would go for: If unit initiates attack, unit will allways copy foes ATK into own calculations. If units RES or DEF over foe RES or DEF then foe can not make any follow up attack.
This should ensure enough firepower for Odin and makes him somewhat tanky, while not being able to abuse close counter on enemy phase. That way you can focus on his RES/DEF stat to make him bulky and prevent follow up attacks, while your firepower doesnt suffer during player phase (but he will have shit firepower during enemy phase).

3 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Odin: "consecutively" as in, brave weapon style? I agree that Odin needs something nice, but that seems overtuned. With that tome, and +Atk/Death Blow 3/Attack +3 Seal, Odin would achieve 54 Atk before buffs, which is on par with +1 Reinhardt using the same kit. What would you think about having the base effect be more in line with what they've done with other Crit-based weapons and accelerate the Special trigger? Doubly valid proposition because of his special quotes. I'm not sure what the refined effect would change to.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Odin: I was underwhelmed by this at first, but then I realized that a +SPD/-HP Odin with Brazen ATK/SPD 3 (and inside Brazen ATK/SPD 3 range) initiating combat while receiving buffs from ATK Tactic 3, and Grima's Truth (for SPD) would have effective stats of [40 HP / 55 ATK / 47 SPD / 25 DEF / 25 RES], making him capable of quadding fairly reliably (even without the Grima's Truth for his SPD, he'd still have 42, which is pretty good) and dealing quite a lot of damage as he does. Granted, that would require quite a lot of investment, but it would make Odin pretty good. So, good refinement. I don't have a good Odin, so I wouldn't raise mine to 5-Star for this, but if I got a good one and he got this I would definitely consider it.

23 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Odin - is that a brave effect? Cause if he can Quad that is a little too broken. 14 MT is enough to fix him, the built in Death Blow goes a little too far though. + 6 Spd would be a little more balanced. 

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: I definitely wouldn't say it's underwhelming. With extreme ATK stacking he could reach Reinhardt levels of ATK and with a +SPD boon he could reach 40 SPD with Life and Death meaning he's quadding quite a few units. Stealing ATK is a neat idea but I don't think it would work for him per se. As for limiting followup attacks, I don't think anything revolving around his bulk is particularly needed. To me Odin's biggest issue has always been that he simply can't kill things, even as a mage. But unlike dagger tanks, he can't really prop up his defenses to be any kind of reliable tank. We could certainly work a weapon in that could mold him that way, but I feel like that goes against his character. I feel like a hyperoffensive tome suits him despite the irony of his utter lack of an ATK stat to begin with.

LordFrigid: Some sort of Wrath or Killing tome? The killing and Wrath combo with the added MT from having a legendary tome would be nice, but I'm not sure even that would save his pitiful ATK. +ATK with a legendary tome is 39 ATK. The special boost would be good, but he'd be relying on it for kills and in a lot of cases against units with even a respectable level of DEF that probably wouldn't be enough. I admit I think I may have went in a bit too hard on his tome, but I think a simple removal or replacement of the Death Blow effect would do wonders to balance him out. 

ILikeKirbys: It's almost perfect, but I'm starting to think the Death Blow effect could in fact be a little overkill. 39 ATK (+ATK without the effect) twice with no SPD loss (unlike Olwen who has that same ATK stat if she's +ATK) hitting RES is still pretty nice when you factor in that he can quad easily and he still has access to an A skill. A SPD boost like Hawk King suggested would look more tame and it would mean more quadding with Desperation so I can definitely get behind that.

Hawk King: He can Quad, considering Olwen has the same ATK stat and she does what she does on a horse with potential for buffs, I fail to see how this is broken in any fashion. The +6 ATK might be a little overkill though I agree, the SPD doesn't seem particularly more tame since now we can hit 46 SPD if he runs LnD3 which is quadding just about everyone with Desperation but it's certainly not any worse than what we deal with with Reinhardt.

If you're talking without the Brave effect though? No. 39 ATK with no brave effect or Death Blow? He's still garbage. With Death blow built in his ATK is bumped up to 44 on Initiation, 50 if he runs death blow in his A slot. That's pretty nice, but he's more or less just a run of the mill blue mage this way. Taking out a chunk of that damage and keeping it is the best way to go. If this was on just about any other blue mage (except maybe M!Robin) it'd probably be broken. But on Odin? Odin? nah.

 

4 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

 

Roy: Isn't it "Binding Blade"? I'm on the fence about breaking the precedent of only-breaths-have-additional-effects-beyond-DC, especially since it's also being combined with not one, but two other strong A Passives. Perhaps the refined effect could be something that plays more off of these defensive aspects.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Roy: I don't think IntSys will add Distant or Close Counter to weapons via Refinery. That's a pretty good refinement though. I'd hope to pull a Roy that isn't either -ATK or -SPD if he got this.

41 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Roy - looks good! Maybe +4 to Def/Res but otherwise, exactly what I want and think about for him for an upgrade.

Response: 

Spoiler

 

LordFrigid: ...Oops. Yeah, wow it is Binding Blade. Yep... I've been typing that wrong for a while now. As far as the refinement goes. I don't think it's an issue. The boost is modest at best and while none of the other DC units (except dragons) have additional effects on their weapons, it should be noted that just about every other DC user has a flat out better or more optimized spread than him. His niche however, has always been that he's got a decent mixed bulk and his weapon was unique in that it boosted that no matter what unit type attacked him and it has remained the only weapon to do that. That's not something I think we should get rid of so easily. If we're going with consistency though, it should take a slight reduction since it's Distant|Close Def so it would be like Mixed DEF 2. So 4 to DEF/RES would be better.

ILikeKirby's: He's pretty much the only unit other than Zephiel that should get DC as a refinement but as it was built into his weapon from his native game, he deserves it. I'd nerf the boost to bulk by 2 points though. Still perfectly balanced.

Hawk King: We're 100% on the same page here.

 

4 hours ago, Hilda said:

Firs Weapon: The refinement doesnt help Fir much, she is allready a fast unit so she will most of the time do a follow up attack. besides it only works against those units she excells at anyway. I would give her a windsweep built in effect into her weapon, that way she can safely also poke melee units if she outspeeds them (and it doesnt brake her due to her low attack).

4 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Fir: For the base effect, you might as well bump up the Res boost to +5 to match Audhulma. On the refined effect, that's too much breaker, imo, especially since it includes Blue Breath & Tomes (and really shouldn't to begin with).

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Fir: RES +3 effect aside (don't think they'll give stat bonuses to weapons that can be refined, though if they did then this would probably be the one Fir would get... that or SPD), Magicbreaker 3 is amazing and I want it to be her thing please. Not sure I'd raise up that Fir I keep around for no real reason if she got this, but maybe.

50 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Fir - so it is a breaker skill for staves, Dragonstones, and ALL MAGIC? Kinda odd since she needs DC to take full advantage of it, and many Staves have Dazzling which would negate it. Plus she is faster than and would double all of the Dragons already except for Myrrh with her Great Flame.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: I like the idea of her being able to attack safely, but the problem is that Windsweep negates followups on all enemies. So if she runs this weapon, she absolutely cannot double which means she can't nuke mages on player phase. She has to rely on DC this way which, while I think is a good skill for her, shouldn't be a necessity to get the best out of her. It's the best thing this way, but in a way she's crippled. I'm always torn on weather or not Windsweep is worth it as a skill. I'd stick to it on Brave units, Daggers and magic nukes. Doesn't work for me for her.

LordFrigid: That's a good observation, and one that I missed actually. The breaker skill was something I came up with but 3 breakers in one seems pretty silly even if she can't take full advantage of it without DC and even then she can't counter Dazzling healers. A damage % reduction just seemed really lazy, but honestly? a Warding Breath effect (dual phase) if attacked by those 3 unit types is something I'm leaning towards. Seems more balanced in the scheme of things and it helps stack her obnoxious RES even higher.

ILikeKirbys: I like the idea of it, but hearing people's opinions and reflecting not only does it seem like much, but it tampers with the game's mechanics (breakers on blue units and she's RES!) but despite it's grandiose, she can't even take full advantage off it without DC and due to Dazzling healers. A Warding Breath effect (on both player/enemy phase) is something I'm leaning towards for her instead. It's still good and with her weapon she can proc Iceberg in the first round of combat if she's attacked, or Glacies if she's attacking.

Hawk King: It's shaky in practice and interferes with the games mechanics. It makes sense to have something like this on a colorless unit because they can break any color, but a red breaking a blue is something that should never happen under any circumstance and so this effect doesn't work.

 

4 hours ago, Hilda said:

Rebecca: The Close counter refinement is kinda wasted, she doesnt have the physical bulk to withstand one round. I think Chill speed would work excellent for her, that way she can debuff the SPD of the fastest unit and maybe guarantee that way a kill on that unit coupled with her 1. effect. I am still not sure if +10 atk is broken on thise one, due to her low DEF it kinda is guaranteed to activate most of the time.

4 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Rebecca: Close Counter bow, huh...that seems pretty interesting, though it seems to clash with the base effect, which rewards dumping Def. Maybe reduce the amount the base effect gives, and make the refined effect also Atk-related? Something like base: "During combat, if foe's Def ≥ unit's Def+3, grants Atk+6", refined: "If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6". That kind of Atk bonus might be a bit generous, tbh.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Rebecca: See Roy for my thoughts on it getting Close Counter. The ATK +10 feels a bit high to me, but I could see it happening. I have a Rebecca at 5-Star, and I'd definitely consider using her if she got this.

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

Rebecca - +10 Atk is a little bit ridiculous no matter what the situation is. +6 would fall in line with skills like Death Blow 3 and Fierce Stance 3. Built in CC on a bow from FE7 just makes no sense. While I would like to see built in CC, Reinfleche is not the bow I'm thinking of. I would like to see whatever bow Shinon comes with have it.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: Neutral DEF/HP Rebecca has 59 physical bulk. It takes 59 ATK to oneshot her. Given her SPD, it's unlikely that she'll be doubled unless we're talking a brave weapon or of course Bold Fighter. Certain units with a Hone or specific skills can ruin her day, but keep in mind she has CC natively and can run whatever she likes in her A and Seal slots. It would be easy to patch up her DEF, but doing that also makes it harder to access the boost in defense. It's kind of the trade off like Life and Death. The more dangerous she is, the easier it is to kill her.

LordFrigid: I understand that much. According to the game's description it would actually be a legendary brave bow but that seems lazy. For the Close Counter, I liked the idea that there was kind of a push pull with her weapons effect. You could play it safer and stack DEF but lose the ATK bonus, or you could drop DEF and trigger the bonus more often. It makes you think, and I like that. Every weapon shouldn't be braindead. Clashing can be a bad thing, but not necessarily when it makes sense.

ILikeKirbys: I doubt it would happen. Particularly for this weapon, but it was a unique idea. I'm going to touch on the ATK bonus with Hawk King.

Hawk King: Not all that ridiculous when you consider some things. 1. Against base Rebecca, the effect will not trigger on units with 23 DEF and below, this rises the more she's merged or her stats are raised. 2. Assuming neutral ATK, she's at 29 ATK, which is brought up to 39 with the boost and then 54 with the weapon's MT. That's 30-33 damage against the lowest possible DEF unit. Hardly enough to kill anyone in a single hit unless she doubles. If she drops DEF she can trigger it sooner and raise her ATK higher, but it essentially kills Close Counter's already shaky viability on her. Still, I see how this is busted because without the refinement it's too easy to stack ATK on her.

Reducing the ATK to around 7 I think would be the way to go. 6 is in line with blows but 7 is more along the lines of Defiant and Brazen skills which I was going more closely towards. If she forgos the CC refinement for an additional MT or SPD then that's something, but the 7 MT boost takes her from 29 to 36 and 32 to 39 which is far more manageable in the scheme of things and CC would give her more versatility in my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, Hilda said:

Florina: looks fine in my eyes, suits her well as a magical tank. The refinement should be restricted to mages, dragonstone users and staves and work 100% of the time.

4 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Florina: I feel like the base and refined effects counteract each other a little bit, unless you plan on just Glimmer/Moonbow-ing enemy mages to death.

2 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Florina: Giving Florina Wary Fighter seems like a good idea to me. Also Warding Blade on her weapon is a great idea. Still probably wouldn't use Florina if she got this, but that's mostly because Hinoka and Catria fulfill my lance-flier needs... though if Florina got this, and I got a +RES one, maybe I could add a third to that...

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

Florina - sorry no. Slim Lance is such a basic weapon. If Flo ever got something it would certainly be "Florina's Lance." The effects seem fine but I just don't think Flo is special enough to ever warrant a unique weapon. At least not before a lot of other units get theirs.

Response: 

Spoiler

 

Hilda: Hm... it reinforces her as a magic tank sure but it weakens her on the other side of the spectrum. Something to think about.

LordFrigid: You can run Fierce Stance 3 for close or DC for ranged, and if you run QR in both the B and Seal slots, she's guaranteed to double and the opponent can't. That and she'll proc Iceberg guaranteed.

ILikeKirbys: I would reccomend it. Clair is the best flying RES tank next to Shanna, but with this weapon, Florina would probably take the cake.

Hawk King: It's... really just a matter of changing the name of the weapon. I was being lazy more than anything. As for her being special. There's nothing special about Felicia but she got a prf. She had one in her game perhaps but it doesn't really matter. IS has proven time again that they don't care about how important a unit is and that's not what matters when it comes to handing out prfs. The Farfetched Heroes banner is the perfect example of that simply not factoring in. Would I prefer some other units getting a prf first? Sure. But there's a couple of units I'd rather she be in front if too if we're having that discussion.

 

5 hours ago, Hilda said:

Lillina: The refinement is interesting but wasted, +30% dmg doesnt help much on a Special when the foe takes 0 dmg (or single digit) from it, this can happen quite alot against high RES units (like Clair, Florina etc.) Change it to: The special AoE damage is allways checked agaisnt the foes lower stat of DEF / RES. that way she can allways get mileage out of it. especially when hitting multiple targets.

5 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Lilina: Maybe restrict the effectiveness to either Infantry or Flier so it's not just Excalibur, but better. Actually...Lilina-level Atk and personal-tome-level Mt with Infantry effectiveness is pretty silly in itself, especially given that enemy Res tends to be lower than enemy Def. I think the AoE-boosting effect is a pretty intriguing, though.

2 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Lilina: Infantry+Flying effectiveness is... well I didn't expect Flying (if it was gonna be dual-effective, I would've guessed Infantry+Armored), but I like it. The AOE-specific Special buff is nice too, works quite well with her default skillset. If she got this, I'd finally raise my +ATK/-SPD Lilina to 5-Star just to use Forblaze.

1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

Lilina - I would love something for her since she just decided to pity break me for the 5th time. Effective against Infantry is just a little too much, especially with her massive Atk stat and a 14 MT weapon. There is a reason Poison Dagger only has 5 MT and is still really good. And the +30% is not necessary. AoE skills already ignore WTA and all skills.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: An interesting idea... I'll consider that. It's probably the way to go actually.

LordFrigid: The effect in FE6 was effective damage vs Dragons (which are infantry in this game) and Wyverns (which are fliers) which was the general idea behind the effect. The idea behind the AoE skill is Forblaze being an all consuming fire that devours man and beast alike, so I feel like that's the skill Lillina should be pushed to running. Nerfing the tome may be a good idea though, 10 to 8 MT as a drop wouldn't be so bad. Flying units isn't necessarily something it would have to have, it's mostly just there for authenticity. If we were going to drop that category though, I'd drop the MT a bit less.

ILikeKirbys: Same here. The AoE needs a bit of tweaking, but Hilda had the right idea. The MT is probably high for essentially a legendary magic Poison Dagger+. A 5-7 MT drop wouldn't hurt it. Especially not with Lillina's base ATK.

Hawk King: I really like the idea of Infantry effective all consuming fire magic, it makes sense. In the worst case it could be effective to Fliers and Dragons if not simply dropping it's MT by a margin. The +30% turns out to be somewhat pointless turns out. Against the units it's effective against it's going to decimate them regardless and against the RES tanks it does nothing. Hilda's idea to target the lower of each units DEF stat is perfect though.

 

6 hours ago, Hilda said:

Bartre: Is in my eyes perfect and makes use of his high HP pool, with a Desperation Seal this could be a very deadly combo. I like it

5 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Bartre: Base effect definitely needs to be "If unit's special activates by attacking, damage dealt by unit's special is also dealt to unit (unit takes sum of damage dealt by specials that deal damage to an area)". Wow, there is a lot going on with that Axe. I think it plays well with Fury+Brash+Desperation...a little too well, if I'm being honest. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with anything that didn't make it either worse-Hauteclere or kinda-Mystletainn so...*shrug*.

3 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Bartre: Works damn well with his default skillset, especially the refinement-skill since he's probably gonna lose HP really quickly. I like it. Dunno if I'd use him, since I don't like units who eat through their HP as quickly as this Bartre would, but I like it.

2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Bartre - You are just putting too many effects on one weapon. The +3 Atk for 5 HP lost is way too much when you consider he can gain over 30 extra Atk on a" killer" weapon with a built in cooldown reduction effect. Brash Assault/Desperation combo would allow him to kill everything and proc Galeforce.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: It's just plain overkill, which I love and think it suits Bartre. In the scheme of balance though... DC Vantage worries me. A DC Vantage Bartre with 1 HP is killing everything with a skill proc and almost everything without one. May have to rethink this a bit.

LordFrigid: It's the sheer insanity of it that I think suits both the Bartre and the Axe itself. The axe gives the user unimaginable power but at a severe cost in HP. I'm just wondering if it's just a bit too much.

ILikeKirbys: He would essentially be the ultimate melee nuke. One touch kill at low HP. He touches anything and it dies, anything touches him and he dies. Still... in the scheme of balance I'm considering a rework.

Hawk King: He should be getting something big for losing 10 HP every round of combat. Doubling down on cooldown reductions might be a bit much though. Looking into reworks, I could nix the Killer effect, nix the HP into ATK boost and make Death Breath effect the refinement with the default effect being an additional 30% to damage if he runs HP based specials. That way he could run Reprisal with a 60% boost to damage based on his loss of HP. That's a full tier drop in power in comparison though. I don't think that's worth -10 HP after every combat even with 2 turn 60% Reprisal. I'd have to cut that down to around 6 HP or something like that.

 

6 hours ago, Hilda said:

Lonqu: like this one, but i would change the 1. effect to brazen spd/atk, that would synergyze very well and make him very deadly once below 80% HP.

6 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Lon'qu: I'd at least restrict the refined effect to when attacked only, because as it is it's Desperation 4 + ... um ... Super-Vantage? Vantage-for-Follow-Ups? I'm not really sure what to call that.

3 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Lon'qu: The default effect seemed weird at first, but the refinement-skill makes it make sense. I like it. Wouldn't use Lon'qu, I have too many good swords already, but it's still good.

2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Lon'qu - everything was perfectly fine until - (Vantage included). I don't want to have to start running Hardy Bearing on my teams.

Response:

Spoiler

 

Hilda: I'd love that, but it's just a bit too powerful. You could stack that with another Brazen or simply run DC and he'd be pure nonsense. I think the base effect is decent. It gives a nice little boost to his ATK and more to his SPD so he can prop that up nicely with whatever A skill you give him.

LordFrigid: I think I'll restrict the skill to proccing only during Vantage. It requires a specific skill sure, but it's one that comes with his base kit. Otherwise he's getting the most ridiculous Desperation in the game. I like Super Vantage actually. An arrow with spikes and lightning effects as the icon would be sweet. The Desperation effect would only apply to Vantage though. With DC he'd be untouchable otherwise.

ILikeKirbys: You'd want to run him, I promise that. Even with the nerf I'm probably going to give his weapon he'd still be a beast. With the right kit he'd be nearly untouchable.

Hawk King: You're right. But Desperation by itself is generic and I'm against it. To make him unique, rather than not including Vantage, the followup should be exclusive to when Vantage procs. So if Vantage procs he strikes twice. So he's not running Desperation+Super Vantage in one. Yes, he can still run DC and when a Desperation seal comes along he can equip that and do the same thing, but before you say this is still broken I want to point something out in case the description wasn't clear, I've been quick with most of these responses but for you I'm going to go in depth on this one.

The effect is a Desperation effect on the weapon, that means if he's got the speed to follow up then it occurs immediately. It does not grant him a followup attack like QR or the Fighter skills. If he's not fast enough to double his opponent, the followup will not happen. Now, assuming a Desperation Seal becomes a reality and he runs that with Vantage and gets this nonsensical build. He can still be killed outright in the first combat, and even in this case (Assuming we ever got a Desp seal) if his HP is below 75% he still has multiple counters which include.

  • TA3 blues that can withstand both attacks.
  • High DEF Armors
  • Units with Swordbreaker
  • Speedy units he can't double.

Without DC the list of counters increases but what I'm saying is that running a DC/Vantage/Desp set caps his stats and plugs up his A, B and Seal slots so he has to rely on his native stats. Which, with the boost from the sword's initial effect can get pretty respectable, but can't be exacerbated with an A, B or Seal to further boost him. In a nutshell, I think taking Desperation on initiation out of the weapon more or less fixes him. He has to do a lot more work to get that same situation back and sacrifice to do it.

 

4 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Arthur: I feel like Justice Axe might be too good with the refinement-skill. Maybe if it just negated WTD instead of reversing it I'd be fine with it, but as it is it just seems too strong to me. I mean, I'd definitely use Arthur if he got this, because it looks really good, but it looks a little bit OP to me.

3 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Arthur - love it. And it extremely tame compared to your other ideas.

Response:

Spoiler

 

ILikeKirbys: I've since edited it. 40% WTA against Blues and 0% WTD against reds was just silly and something that shouldn't even be considered.

Hawk King: Somewhat odd that you'd consider a 16 MT Gem weapon with 40% WTA against Blues but standard WTD against red to be tame. But given Arthur's somewhat middling stats, I guess it makes sense.

 

4 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Lloyd: Giving him Swordbreaker on his weapon... I'm honestly surprised that breakers haven't been added to weapons yet outside of the Assassin's Bow. Also the expanded regular effect is much better than what he gets now. I like it. Might consider using one of the Lloyd copies that I have if he got this.

4 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Lloyd - again perfect. Right on par with actual in-game stuff that we are currently getting.

Response:

Spoiler

Both: Lloyd was actually a bit of a difficult unit to come up with a refine that suited him, but considering he's a swordsman and somewhat of a duelist, Swordbreaker seemed like it suited him, so I went with that. And yeah in the scheme of things it just brings the weapon up to par with the current generation of existing prfs. Nothing too crazy, but useful enough to make an outdated unit viable.

Now As for @Astellius

Spoiler

Odin: His effect is indeed a brave effect. I don't think it's overkill when a unit's attack is as bad as his. The Death Blow built in might be overkill, but subtract that and his ATK remains modest even if you boost it with an A skill. He'll do quite a bit of quadding which turns him from the single worst unit in the game to a respectable blue mage that's almost if not Linde tier, but we're hardly breaking the game. Olwen and Reinhardt could do what he does just as well if not better.

Roy: Refinements usually get a bit of an upgrade to their base effects so I think that should stick with Roy. Rather than +6 though I think +4 to both would be more fitting since stat boosts that apply everywhere are generally a bit more modest.

Fir: I was reaching with her I think. But the skill is fundamentally flawed right down to the design. Rather than a typical Wo Dao effect to stack on the killing effect, I'm leaning towards a dual phase Warding Breath for another +4 Res and +1 Cooldown when up against those mentioned magical units. Wouldn't break her and she'd still need DC to reach her full potential, but she basically becomes a full on counter to just about anything using magic that isn't a Dazzling healer.

Rebecca: CC is in a weird spot for her but I think with the right build setup she can make it work and find a balance between it and her weapon's main effect. Still I'd like other opinions on what would be a good refinement for her. As for the base effect, I'd be content dropping it to +7, Defiant/Brazen tier boost to a unit with middling ATK.

Lillina: Probably the best suggestion I heard for her. She may not need the infantry effectiveness, but Dragon and Flier effectiveness would be basically perfect and authentic to FE6. As for the AoE skill, Hilda's suggestion to make it target the lower of your foe's DEF/RES was pretty perfect. That and with the cooldown reduction it becomes a 3 turn special. Maybe a +1 to cooldown during combat with an AoE skill equipped like XRay suggested would be better still. But your suggestion is both good and balanced. Still the idea of her roasting infantry makes me giddy.

Bartre: The Devil Axe killing your unit would be horrible lol. I admit Bartre is overkill though with that axe. I'm leaning towards removing the Killer effect and the HP to ATK conversion, giving the Death Blow(Breath) effect over to the refinement and boosting damage done if he uses an HP based skill like Reprisal. That would be a lot more balanced and we could tone down the HP recoil as well because of it.

Lon'Qu: Agreed. The followup should only apply when Vantage procs. He'd have more counters than that even if it stayed the way it was though. Any blue that could survive his attacks, unit with Swordbreaker or simply someone too fast for him to double would do the trick. It's a Desperation effect, it won't give him a double if he's not fast enough to do it naturally. Still it's too much.

Arthur: Yep. 

Lloyd: Not even remotely overpowered. Lloyd is already at a disadvantage vs other units due to the lack of natures alone. His boost is also situational and without it his performance plummets. Swordbreaker on his weapon is hardly an issue. It does need a health requirement though.

So... after doing some thinking myself and reading everyone's stuff. This is more or less where I am with each one of these units.

Matthew: Wouldn't change a thing. The weapon would reinvent him but in no way would break him or the game. Assuming a fully optimized build on him TA Raven tomes, BF/VF Armors, Dragons, High ATK Brave units and QR units with DC still destroy him. He may shoot up in tiers, he may even become meta, but he's in no way broken. There are still a plethora of hard counters to this unit, and while he can run a B skill to negate one or two of the counters, it only cripples him further against all of his other ones. If they release a Sweep Seal and he can run both at once, get back to me. Or we could just make Close Counter his refinement. I'd be good with that too.

Odin: While his ATK is horrific, the brave effect of his time with no ATK or SPD loss and Death Blow 3 on top of that is a little much, even for him. He can still run his A and Seal skills. Perhaps he should run something a bit more modest in his base effect like a teleporting property or something else that doesn't directly effect his combat performance.

Roy: We were mostly all on the same page. Take the +6 DEF/RES down to +4 and I think we're good here.

Fir: Mixed responses on this one but ultimately it doesn't work. Magic Breaker 3 goes against the mechanics of the game and it's something that only a colorless unit could have if anyone should have it at all. Leaning more towards a Warding Blow/Breath (for both phases) effect for her. It would prop her Res up even further and give her access to instant Iceberg or even Glacies which she desperately needs for damage.

Rebecca: I really liked the idea of having to manage your DEF and weighing how important it is to keep yourself in a good enough position to be able to survive a counter with CC but still have access to the damage. It's true you could just run an ATK or SPD refinement and run LnD3+Desp and just about always have the buff up, but pretty much anything that can counter her will probably kill her if she doesn't kill it in one hit even at full Health. I like CC but I may revisit her refinement. As for the base effect, +10 is too much, but +6 for an effect that triggers based on a unit's stat when Death Blow 3 only requires initiation? Can't agree with that. I can agree on +7 and the pre-req staying the same.

Lillina: As much as I don't want to give up on that delicious infantry effectiveness, I could let it go. She would roast just about every single infantry in the game save the blue RES tanks and it would be glorious. Effectiveness vs Dragons and Fliers is something I could get behind. It's still great and the AoE effect definitely needs a buff. If I were to be honest though? I'd be fine with forgoing the Flier effectiveness, cutting the MT of the tome in half and keeping the infantry effectiveness. I want her to roast people alive. I think that would be really amazing.

Bartre: He's too much, even with the recoil. Leaning towards buffing HP related specials (30% Damage increase on activation) and cutting the killer effect/the HP-ATK conversion. It would still reward you for fighting with Low HP, but it wouldn't be a guaranteed kill on everything in the entire game if Bartre's at 1 HP.

Lon'Qu: His refinement effect stays, but it only applies to Vantage procs so he can't double on both PP and EP. I could forgo the EP Swift Sparrow 2 effect and give him Vantage just so he could still run Desp in his B slot and I could be a douche, but, nah. He'd have to wait on a Desp seal for a dual phase Desp build and who knows when that'll be. In the meantime he's still a strong sword unit and one of the unique enemy phase non QR ones with this weapon and I think it's pretty balanced without the player phase doubling on top of Super Vantage.

Arthur: He's fine. If anything he's not that much better of a unit.

Lloyd: Arthur to a lesser extent. He's just made into a solid unit with this Refinement. Perfectly tame but it gives him a little flexibility with his B slot which a unit like him needs. His SB3 effect needs an HP requirement though so we'll fix that.

Thanks for your feedback guys. It really helps me get more of a feel for balance and I like that even though this topic is for fun you guys all took these ideas seriously and gave your views. I'm going to update my post another time doing revisions to some of the units and I'm looking at some of these units to do next as well.

Icon Portrait Barst.png Icon Portrait Selena.png Icon Portrait Henry.png Icon Portrait Oboro.pngIcon Portrait Hinata.pngIcon Portrait Hawkeye.pngIcon Portrait Robin (M).pngIcon Portrait Robin (F).pngIcon Portrait Jagen.pngIcon Portrait Camilla.pngIcon Portrait Beruka.png

Kind of been looking at Raigh too but one of the users here had a pretty good build for Raigh with Apocalypse which I was pretty happy with. Then there's units like Niles, M!Corrin and the Askr trio which I don't really know what to do with at this point. Kind of want to see how I can make Gaius worth something though.

Anyways Cheers~

*End Wall-O-Text*

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@Zeo Keep tagging me, no problem. 

I wanted write some responses, but it seems I'm a little late, things are covered already by the others. Most units you mentioned deserve a nice boost and you covered them well, even if some tend to be OP. 

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@Zeo I'll also throw in ideas for some the heroes you mentioned at the end of your post. I've already got something for Hawkeye.
I'll steal your style of writing refinements

Phew. Just got home. Imma gonna type!

Hawkeye

  • Runeaxe (16 Mt): If in combat against foe using magic, unit receives 50% less damage from the first attack.
  • Refinement:  If in combat against foe using magic, enables unit to counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

Robin (M)

  • Robin's Primer (14 Mt): If in combat against colorless foe, unit receives 40% less damage from the first attack.
  • Refinement: If in combat against colorless foe, unit deals 40% more damage on the first attack.

Robin (F)

  • Robin's Codex (14 Mt): Effective against cavalry units.
  • Refinement: At start of turn, bonuses become penalties on all cavalry foes in cardinal directions through foe's next action.
Edited by silveraura25
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7 hours ago, Zeo said:

Some sort of Wrath or Killing tome?

Both (one base, one refined), but Wo Dao/Dark Excalibur instead of Wrath, like Hauteclere. It boosted both crit chance and damage in Fates anyway. Now you’re more true to source material AND not just Reinhardt v0.5. Plenty of units rely on specials and work just fine.

Late edit: Breaking inheritance restrictions in my simulator to give him Dark Excalibur and setting his special cool down to -1 (to simulate the accelerate special trigger effect) isn’t really that stellar...He probably wants a little more, but idk what. I maintain that special-oriented effects are fitting for the weapon.

7 hours ago, Zeo said:

Dragons (which are infantry in this game)

Neither Myrrh nor Robin are infantry. Looks like you’re already aware of Dragon effectiveness, which would suit your purposes far better.

~

I’m still on the fence about Roy, Rebecca, and Florina, but those are the two I have a counter-proposal for.

Edited by LordFrigid
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4 hours ago, Zeo said:

I really like the idea of Infantry effective all consuming fire magic, it makes sense. In the worst case it could be effective to Fliers and Dragons if not simply dropping it's MT by a margin. The +30% turns out to be somewhat pointless turns out. Against the units it's effective against it's going to decimate them regardless and against the RES tanks it does nothing. Hilda's idea to target the lower of each units DEF stat is perfect though.

Even Res tanks will get messed up from the "Blazing" versions of the AoE skills. Trust me, I used AoE skills on all of my units before I had the resources to start giving Aether and Galeforce. The AoE hit ignores all skills and the WTA, so with 0 merges, +Atk Lilina has 54 Atk against +Res Clair with Res refinement on a weapon has 40 Res. 1.5 x 54 = 81 Atk - 40 Res = 41 damage from the AoE hit, then the next hit will be enough to finish Clair's 1 remaining HP unless she is running Berkut's Lance.

edit - oops I forgot about the effective against Dragons and Flyers. With that, I am not sure there is a single unit who could survive a "Blazing ______"  AoE special. Only blue, Infantry, Armors, or Horses with high Res and TA3 could survive her normal follow up hit. In which case she could run Cancel Afinity 3, lol.

 

4 hours ago, Zeo said:

Hawk King: You're right. But Desperation by itself is generic and I'm against it. To make him unique, rather than not including Vantage, the followup should be exclusive to when Vantage procs. So if Vantage procs he strikes twice. So he's not running Desperation+Super Vantage in one. Yes, he can still run DC and when a Desperation seal comes along he can equip that and do the same thing, but before you say this is still broken I want to point something out in case the description wasn't clear, I've been quick with most of these responses but for you I'm going to go in depth on this one.

The effect is a Desperation effect on the weapon, that means if he's got the speed to follow up then it occurs immediately. It does not grant him a followup attack like QR or the Fighter skills. If he's not fast enough to double his opponent, the followup will not happen. Now, assuming a Desperation Seal becomes a reality and he runs that with Vantage and gets this nonsensical build. He can still be killed outright in the first combat, and even in this case (Assuming we ever got a Desp seal) if his HP is below 75% he still has multiple counters which include.

  • TA3 blues that can withstand both attacks.
  • High DEF Armors
  • Units with Swordbreaker
  • Speedy units he can't double.

Without DC the list of counters increases but what I'm saying is that running a DC/Vantage/Desp set caps his stats and plugs up his A, B and Seal slots so he has to rely on his native stats. Which, with the boost from the sword's initial effect can get pretty respectable, but can't be exacerbated with an A, B or Seal to further boost him. In a nutshell, I think taking Desperation on initiation out of the weapon more or less fixes him. He has to do a lot more work to get that same situation back and sacrifice to do it.

 

On 3/13/2018 at 6:12 AM, Zeo said:

Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. (Vantage included)

Maybe I am not understanding the description how you mean it but I see it as If Lon'qu attacks first whether on player phase initiation or enemy phase from a vantage proc both of hits attacks will go before the enemies 1st attack so long as he has the speed to double. Sure his Atk isn't the greatest but with DC all but a small handful of ranged attackers are unable to get an attack off and anything that already faced him in combat to get him to Vantage range won't be able to survive 2 more hits. Just think of him with Miracle. Unless you can 1 shot him on the first round of combat, he takes 3 hits to kill. Sure there are counters to him but he is just too good against stuff that doesn't counter him.

4 hours ago, Zeo said:

Hawk King: Somewhat odd that you'd consider a 16 MT Gem weapon with 40% WTA against Blues but standard WTD against red to be tame. But given Arthur's somewhat middling stats, I guess it makes sense.

In the end it is just 20% more damage against one color. He is still at a disadvantage to reds, he just isn't completely shut out by them anymore. When you consider that Lyon's tome gives him 20% extra damage to and 20% less damage from one of the colors (the -Raven effect), your proposed Justice Axe isn't so crazy.

Edited by Hawk King
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