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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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11 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Jagen - Veteran Knight
Veteran's Lance | MT 16 | At start of turn, inflicts ATK/DEF -4 on foes in cardinal directions with lower RES than unit through their next actions.
Refine: When unit's RES > foe's RES during combat, grants bonus ATK/SPD/DEF/RES equal to 50% of the difference. (Maximum bonus of +8).

I would increase its effect to Atk/Def-6. He has veteran BST penalty so a stronger effect is justified in my opinion.

I would also give him an additional "second" effect in his Refinement similar to Golden Dagger and Whitewing Weapons, such as preventing enemies from making follow up attacks or Special Fighter.

11 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Gordin - Altean Archer
Altean Bow | MT 9 | Effective against Flying. Inflicts SPD -5. Unit attacks twice when initiating combat.
Refine: When initiating combat, if unit's DEF > foe's DEF +3 at start of combat, grants ATK +4 and Special Charge +1 per unit's attack during combat.

4 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I believe Gordin would receive the same treatment as Klein, which is a Brave Bow with 8 Mt and -2 Spd. He is the 2nd infantry archer to have the higer Def at 32 Def, only behind NY COrrin, with 34, so his skill would be great for him. Against a for with less Def, he would be able to trigger 2 CD skills, like Moonbow and Glimmer, in every single combat.

The Refine is overkill against squishy units and it does not do anything against bulky units. I would get rid of its activation requirements and make the effect always active.

I also would not give Gordin Spd+3 as part of its base effect since Gordin is abysmally slow and giving him extra Spd does not accomplish anything.

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With Gordin, I'd go simple.

8 MT

Brave effect, spd -5

Refine - Sturdy Blow 2

 

 

I'm more interested in Virion. A Slaying weapon with Armorslayer and a refine to add Panic Ploy might be a solid general purpose weapon for his stat line. I'm aware that is 3 effects, but Niles got 3 as well, and Virion is just as bad.

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2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

With Gordin, I'd go simple.

8 MT

Brave effect, spd -5

Refine - Sturdy Blow 2

Why not 9 Mt? It's assumed Argent Bow has 8 Mt instead of 9 Mt to balance the +3 Spd in its base effect.

 

3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I'm more interested in Virion. A Slaying weapon with Armorslayer and a refine to add Panic Ploy might be a solid general purpose weapon for his stat line. I'm aware that is 3 effects, but Niles got 3 as well, and Virion is just as bad.

One, effective damage is a free effect, so that's still the usual 2 effects.

Two, Virion is definitely not as bad as Niles was.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Why not 9 Mt? It's assumed Argent Bow has 8 Mt instead of 9 Mt to balance the +3 Spd in its base effect.

 

One, effective damage is a free effect, so that's still the usual 2 effects.

Two, Virion is definitely not as bad as Niles was.

It's not like Klein really needed a 1 damage nerf to balance the effect. 

 

Anyway, effective damage is not always a free effect. Especially armor/cavalry/infantry. We see characters like Oboro and Bartre stuck with only armorslayer for a full effect. Their rules aren't consistent.

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3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

It's not like Klein really needed a 1 damage nerf to balance the effect. 

It's there on principle for consistency with other weapons.

 

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Anyway, effective damage is not always a free effect. Especially armor/cavalry/infantry. We see characters like Oboro and Bartre stuck with only armorslayer for a full effect. Their rules aren't consistent.

It is always a free effect because exclusive weapons have at most one counted effect before refine, not exactly one counted effect before refine.

Wing Sword and Rhomphaia have zero counted effects before refine, and that's perfectly normal.

 

Any rules we have are based off of the examples we are given and are not known with certainty to be correct, i.e. they are empirical. If the rules you are using are inconsistent and have too many exceptions, then that means you need to formulate better rules to capture those exceptions rather than twiddle your thumbs with blatantly wrong rules.

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5 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I really liked all if your ideas.

  • The "Selkie" effect for Jagen works pretty well, since he has the same base Res as Selkie. Just give him Spd and Res Ploy in the C and Seal slot, so he can debuff all stats of his opponents.
  • Cain needs some Atk boost and Brazen Atk/Spd will do the job. I don't know if this would make him a better pick than Ares, but still... he would become more viable.
  • I liked Cain's refinement. It is a good reference to his friend Cain and love interest Est, and the base effect being the cooldown reduction is always good.
  • I believe Gordin would receive the same treatment as Klein, which is a Brave Bow with 8 Mt and -2 Spd. He is the 2nd infantry archer to have the higer Def at 32 Def, only behind NY COrrin, with 34, so his skill would be great for him. Against a for with less Def, he would be able to trigger 2 CD skills, like Moonbow and Glimmer, in every single combat.
  • Draug would enjoy the Stats+3, and the Wo Dao weapon would help him because his Atk isn't that great, at 30 base.
  • Barrier is a interesting choice for Wrys's weapon. I was thinking, for this especific staff, the effect of "when unit uses a healing assist on ally, grants Def/Res+4", but your idea of power creep version of Ovoid Staff is pretty cool too. Warding Stance 4 as refinement is interesting.
  • Wait, Selkie has the same base RES as Jagen? I didn't know that. This might be a better effect for him then I anticipated. And yeah, quad-Ploy would be pretty good on him, especially with the Foxkit Fang effect since he's getting +2-3 in all stats if RES Ploy hits someone on top of the -4/-5/-4/-5 that they're also gonna be experiencing.
  • Well, Cain can run triple-Brazens and Galeforce, two things that Ares cannot do as well since IIRC Special Spiral doesn't activate after Galeforce, so he's not able to run it especially well, and Ares doesn't have a Brazen on his weapon, limiting him to double-Brazens. I tried to make him into physical Celica with a Slaying weapon, though he probably wouldn't be as good as she is.
  • Abel's refinement is a Brave Lance, not cooldown reduction. Glad you like the refine though... And now I'm thinking that I could've given him a Klein-type Brave Lance with 1 less MT and only a -2 SPD penalty since he has alright SPD and it'd be better with the Refine effect, that probably could've been good on him. Gonna edit my last post with that.
  • I don't think IntSys would give Gordin a Klein-type Brave Prf since he's rather slow (25, compared to Klein's 33). Outside of that, yeah insta-Moonbow would probably help Gordin, though he could also run Bonfire/Ignis with Special Spiral and one/two Infantry Pulse allies to make use of his DEF with some investment.
  • Glad you liked Draug's, I went back and forth on it for a while (it was a Safeguard with the DEF-based omnibuff, then a Klein-type Brave weapon with Steady Blow refine, then a Steady Blow weapon with Gordin's refine attached, then the Wo Dao + DEF-based omnibuff I stopped on).
  • Warding Stance 4 was chosen because it boosts the only non-HP stat Wrys has that isn't crap, plus the Guard effect should help him tank mages (because his statline doesn't really help him do anything else). Ovoid Staff's effect was chosen since it isn't a combat effect and Wrys doesn't have the stats to do meaningful damage in combat so a mid- or post-combat effect wouldn't be all that great for him.
    • Also, granting stats on heal is already a series of Specials, so I'm not sure they would put that on a staff (though buffs-on-heal would be good if we ever get Barrier/Barrier+, and now that I think of that I should've called this weapon Wrys's Staff instead of Barrier, not sure why I didn't do that).

I'm quite glad you liked these!

And yeah, Staff Prfs when? Mainly Lachesis/Nanna with a staff that references their Earth Sword, though IMO the Cavalry Staves introduced before Veronica and all the Infantry Staves who aren't Loki/Mikoto could all use a Prf too. IMO Mist and Genny should be top priority since they're 5-Star-locked and not especially great (Mist I covered last page, TLDR she's Wrys except more balanced and still not good, Genny has solid ATK and RES but lacks the SPD to double and thus is not as good as Loki/Mikoto offensively).

59 minutes ago, XRay said:

I would increase its effect to Atk/Def-6. He has veteran BST penalty so a stronger effect is justified in my opinion.

I would also give him an additional "second" effect in his Refinement similar to Golden Dagger and Whitewing Weapons, such as preventing enemies from making follow up attacks or Special Fighter.

I feel like ATK/DEF Ploy 4 might be a bit too good... -5 would probably be sufficient.

And does Jagen really need a second effect if he gets Foxkit Fang's effect and ATK/DEF Ploy 3?

59 minutes ago, XRay said:

The Refine is overkill against squishy units and it does not do anything against bulky units. I would get rid of its activation requirements and make the effect always active.

I also would not give Gordin Spd+3 as part of its base effect since Gordin is abysmally slow and giving him extra Spd does not accomplish anything.

That effect being always active feels too good, but I see your point.

Maybe something like "When unit initiates combat against foe using Sword, Lance, Axe, Dragonstone or Beast damage, grants ATK/DEF +4 during combat, and if foe can counterattack, unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack" could work? Maybe it's a bit OP, but it might make him a decent archer for taking on DC melee units?

Edited by ILikeKirbys

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13 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

And yeah, Staff Prfs when?

The problem with exclusive staves is the fact that they have the toughest competition of any weapon type with inheritable weapons. Gravity+ and Pain+ are so powerful that it takes a lot to make a staff weapon desirable enough to use over them, and for the foreseeable future, the only refine options are going to remain Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff for all staves.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

I feel like ATK/DEF Ploy 4 might be a bit too good... -5 would probably be sufficient.

And does Jagen really need a second effect if he gets Foxkit Fang's effect and ATK/DEF Ploy 3?

I think so. Jagen's stats are really low, so what he lacks in stats needs to be made up for in effects.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

That effect being always active feels too good, but I see your point.

Maybe something like "When unit initiates combat against foe using Sword, Lance, Axe, Dragonstone or Beast damage, grants ATK/DEF +4 during combat, and if foe can counterattack, unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack" could work? Maybe it's a bit OP, but it might make him a decent archer for taking on DC melee units?

Instead of two hits and a Moonbow, that is four hits and a Luna and without set up.

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I might consider reactivating if Kagero got a prf.  Preferably, I'd like it to be like Nameless Blade, with a decent mt, slaying effect and +10 special damage.  Probably, it would be a 12 mt weapon with infantry and armor effectiveness.

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My most wanted right now:

 

5. Berkut - His current weapon is great... just not for him.

 

4. Virion - Seriously lacking, but with the potential to be pretty viable with a good Slaying prf.

 

3. Barst's rounded stat line could make for a pretty solid mixed phase axe unit if he ever gets a Slaying prf.

 

2. Hawkeye - we could really use more viable enemy phase axe units that aren't armor, and Hawkeye currently stands as one of the most underpowered units. I'd recommend a Desert Tomahawk similar to Saber's Golden Dagger.

 

1. Lucas - Lance infantry is a pretty sparse category, especially for f2p players. Lucas' stat line is excellent, but he could use a slight power boost. I'd recommend an upgraded Brave weapon.

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10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Why not 9 Mt? It's assumed Argent Bow has 8 Mt instead of 9 Mt to balance the +3 Spd in its base effect.

 

One, effective damage is a free effect, so that's still the usual 2 effects.

Two, Virion is definitely not as bad as Niles was.

Wasn't Virion actually one of the top archer for a super long time? I remember gamepedia ranked him alongside TKJ one time, and he used to be Tier 3 alongside KJ for a while

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13 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem with exclusive staves is the fact that they have the toughest competition of any weapon type with inheritable weapons. Gravity+ and Pain+ are so powerful that it takes a lot to make a staff weapon desirable enough to use over them, and for the foreseeable future, the only refine options are going to remain Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff for all staves.

It is still possible tough. While Gravity+ and Pain+ are very good you could give vanilla units some personal Stave that would help them shine.

Example:

Wrys:
Slow+ ----> Gambanteinn: 14 Mt: At start of turn, if any foes Res <=  Units Res -3 and that foe is adjacent to another foe, inflicts -7 Spd on that foe through its next action. + Dazzling Staff. ----> Refine: grants also Sabotage Defense

Azama:
Pain+ ----> Ruyi Jingu Bang: 14 Mt: Deals Damage according to 50% of unit Atk - foe Atk to target and foes within 2 spaces of target after combat (minimum 10) + Dazzling staff. ---> Refine: Fortress Defense.

Sakura: Quiet Strength: 14 Mt: Infantry and Flying allies within 2 Spaces recieve +5 Def and +5 Res during combat. + Dazzling effect ----> Refine: Inflicts -5 Atk on Foes within 3 Spaces that use Tomes, Staves and Dragonstones during combat.

Lucius: Aureola: 14 Mt: Effectiv against Dragons and Armorers. Grants +3 Res. Mystic Boost 3 ----> Refine: Calculates damage using the lower of foes Def or Res. (this one gets no dazzling or wrathfull refine effect)

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3 hours ago, Hilda said:

It is still possible tough. While Gravity+ and Pain+ are very good you could give vanilla units some personal Stave that would help them shine.

Example:

Wrys:
Slow+ ----> Gambanteinn: 14 Mt: At start of turn, if any foes Res <=  Units Res -3 and that foe is adjacent to another foe, inflicts -7 Spd on that foe through its next action. + Dazzling Staff. ----> Refine: grants also Sabotage Defense

Azama:
Pain+ ----> Ruyi Jingu Bang: 14 Mt: Deals Damage according to 50% of unit Atk - foe Atk to target and foes within 2 spaces of target after combat (minimum 10) + Dazzling staff. ---> Refine: Fortress Defense.

Sakura: Quiet Strength: 14 Mt: Infantry and Flying allies within 2 Spaces recieve +5 Def and +5 Res during combat. + Dazzling effect ----> Refine: Inflicts -5 Atk on Foes within 3 Spaces that use Tomes, Staves and Dragonstones during combat.

Lucius: Aureola: 14 Mt: Effectiv against Dragons and Armorers. Grants +3 Res. Mystic Boost 3 ----> Refine: Calculates damage using the lower of foes Def or Res. (this one gets no dazzling or wrathfull refine effect)

Using the two existing Prf Staves we have (and other weapons in general) all of these weapons are ridiculously over-tuned. Wrathful/Dazzling each count as a full effect and both new units and the latest refines show that 2 full effects is still the generally accepted standard (with a few odd balls thrown in). While you might say that these particular units need very strong weapons, you can't overlook how many units get refines that are just marginal upgrades on existing play styles (e.g. Bartre, Oboro, etc.) and being a bad unit doesn't guarantee you a spectacular weapon, nor one that breaks the rules.

As for some particulars:

Wrys: Not much to say other than it having 3 effects, although I do like the idea of a sabotage effect on a staff

 

Azama: I don't really understand the intent here. 50% of Azama's atk - his foe's atk is guaranteed to be a negative number and if you meant the opposite... that would actually deal way too much damage. Also 3 effects

 

Sakura: We have a baseline of strength for base effect in Hinoka's and Camilla's prf, so there's no reason to think Sakura would get special treatment. Also I'm not sure about that Hex effect as with the exception of globals, everything that does have a range only goes to 2 spaces. Not Necessarily broken just unprecedented.

 

Lucius: While on paper this weapon's effects line up with Thani, its worth noting that Thani is one of those oddball weapons that just gets to break the rules and I wouldn't expect many weapons to follow suit (Warrior Princess and sort of Niles' Bow are also exceptions). Additionally, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, there has never been a case of a Legendary weapon that canonically exists in fire emblem being given non cannon friendly effective damage in Heroes. If anything Aureola would just be effective dragons, but all the Elibe legendary weapons have had that stripped so I wouldn't even expect that much. I Also question if IS would make a pure combat staff as even if it's denied Dazzle on the weapon its self, you can always run it in the B slot. As strong as Veronica's weapon is, it doesn't contain an effect to make her stronger in a single round of combat like effective damage.

EDIT:Actually going along with Icedragon, Thani's existence isn't so odd. Still don't think they'd put eff damage on a staff though.

Edited by colossus86

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  • fallen Celica Beloved Zofia: Grants Def+3. If unit's HP >= 75% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4. If unit is not adjacent to an ally, grants Atk/Def+6 during combat.
  • L'Arachel Ivaldi: Grants Def+3  If foe's HP <= 50% at start of combat, grants Atk/Spd+3 during combat. At start of turn, grants Atk+6 to ally with the highest Atk for 1 turn. (Excludes unit.) 
  • Fjorm  Leiptr: Enables counterattack regardless of distance if this unit is attacked. At start of combat, if Special is ready, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat and special can activate regardless of foe's range.

My thoughts that fCelica needed to change the activation because it's too difficult to maintain. The same applies to L'Arachel. 

Edited by Jingle Jangle

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10 hours ago, colossus86 said:

Using the two existing Prf Staves we have (and other weapons in general) all of these weapons are ridiculously over-tuned. Wrathful/Dazzling each count as a full effect and both new units and the latest refines show that 2 full effects is still the generally accepted standard (with a few odd balls thrown in). While you might say that these particular units need very strong weapons, you can't overlook how many units get refines that are just marginal upgrades on existing play styles (e.g. Bartre, Oboro, etc.) and being a bad unit doesn't guarantee you a spectacular weapon, nor one that breaks the rules.

As for some particulars:

Wrys: Not much to say other than it having 3 effects, although I do like the idea of a sabotage effect on a staff

 

Azama: I don't really understand the intent here. 50% of Azama's atk - his foe's atk is guaranteed to be a negative number and if you meant the opposite... that would actually deal way too much damage. Also 3 effects

 

Sakura: We have a baseline of strength for base effect in Hinoka's and Camilla's prf, so there's no reason to think Sakura would get special treatment. Also I'm not sure about that Hex effect as with the exception of globals, everything that does have a range only goes to 2 spaces. Not Necessarily broken just unprecedented.

 

Lucius: While on paper this weapon's effects line up with Thani, its worth noting that Thani is one of those oddball weapons that just gets to break the rules and I wouldn't expect many weapons to follow suit (Warrior Princess and sort of Niles' Bow are also exceptions). Additionally, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, there has never been a case of a Legendary weapon that canonically exists in fire emblem being given non cannon friendly effective damage in Heroes. If anything Aureola would just be effective dragons, but all the Elibe legendary weapons have had that stripped so I wouldn't even expect that much. I Also question if IS would make a pure combat staff as even if it's denied Dazzle on the weapon its self, you can always run it in the B slot. As strong as Veronica's weapon is, it doesn't contain an effect to make her stronger in a single round of combat like effective damage.

EDIT:Actually going along with Icedragon, Thani's existence isn't so odd. Still don't think they'd put eff damage on a staff though.

I counted the Dazzling/Wrathfull effect much like the Adjusted Damage effect of Dragons. in that regard i think its fine. And none of those weapons is really overtuned effect wise. If you want to remove the wrathffull/dazzling effect fine. I am anyway more of a healer should be superior support unit type. This is also the reason why their effects are better then most other weapons in terms of support. They cant run Damaging specials or most of the best A slot skills or B Slot skills (if they want to run wrathfull staff).

As on Azama i misstyped: it should be 50% of foe Atk - units Atk. Basicly makeing use of Azamas low Attack.

Sakura has physics+ and we got New Year Gunnthra with a 4 space debuff. So i really dont see the issue here. Besides it doesnt work on all units so.

Those weapons arent overtuned if you look what we have been getting weapon wise on some newer melees. if anything they are on par.

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5 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I counted the Dazzling/Wrathfull effect much like the Adjusted Damage effect of Dragons.

Except that it's clear from existing weapons that it isn't a free effect.

 

7 minutes ago, Hilda said:

and we got New Year Gunnthra with a 4 space debuff.

New Year Gunnthra doesn't have a 4-space debuff. She has a "global" debuff with a maximum range of 4 spaces.

Hikami's effect is the same as a Chill except instead of hitting the enemy with the highest or lowest value of a specific stat, it hits the enemy with the lowest value of "distance", but only if it is 4 or lower. It's basically the same as if Chill Spd hit the enemy with the highest Spd, but only if their Spd is 30 or higher.

The weapon you're suggesting for Sakura isn't a global debuff, it's an AoE debuff centered on the target, and we don't yet have any AoE debuffs with a range greater than 2.

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The only problem I see with staves is if they have the Wrathful or Dazzling effect in the base effect.

Example, Let's say  I gave Sakura the Dazzling Staff B skill, but then Sakura gets a exclusive weapon with the dazzling staff effect on it and no access to Wrathful staff by refining her weapon. Now the B-Skill I gave to her before is useless and I need to fodder Wrathful Staff to her.

I think the staff users should receive a exclusive weapon but keep the Wrathful/Dazzling refinement choices and not having the skills in the base effect, unless they get a weapon with one skill and have access to the other skill by refining the weapon, so they would have the B-Slot free to have a different skill.

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1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

The only problem I see with staves is if they have the Wrathful or Dazzling effect in the base effect.

Example, Let's say  I gave Sakura the Dazzling Staff B skill, but then Sakura gets a exclusive weapon with the dazzling staff effect on it and no access to Wrathful staff by refining her weapon. Now the B-Skill I gave to her before is useless and I need to fodder Wrathful Staff to her.

I think the staff users should receive a exclusive weapon but keep the Wrathful/Dazzling refinement choices and not having the skills in the base effect, unless they get a weapon with one skill and have access to the other skill by refining the weapon, so they would have the B-Slot free to have a different skill.

One of the reasons why staff prfs should be so easy to make is precisely because their refinements are so formulaic. Give them all a choice of wrathful or dazzling. That's literally half the work done. 

 

Then just make them an upgraded version of one of the existing staves with 14 MT or give them a new base effect.

 

It's half the work of any other weapon type and with less chance of fucking up the game's balance. The best healer in the game already has a prf. It would take a lot and I mean a lot to make an even more cancerous healer.

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9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

One of the reasons why staff prfs should be so easy to make is precisely because their refinements are so formulaic.

The easy part being easier means nothing if the hard part is also harder. As I mentioned before, the problem with exclusive staves is the fact that their base effect is difficult to design because it has to compete with skills that are already borderline over-tuned. Gravity+, Pain+, Witchy Wand+, and Flash+ are just really powerful inheritable options to compete against.

One of the reasons why non-staff non-tome exclusive weapons are almost always viable options is because inheritable non-staff non-tome weapons are weak. You really only have to compete with Brave, Slaying, and Wo, and most weapons do this by simply having one of those effects flat-out.

In fact, this is where staves only having one unique effect (because Wrathful Staff or Dazzling Staff takes the other effect slot) is a huge detriment to their ability to get exclusive weapons. They only have one effect to differentiate themselves from inheritable options. Non-staff weapons have two slots to differentiate themselves, making it easier to make novel weapons that can effectively compete with inheritable options.

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Some ideas for refined version of staves. This effects could be used for exclusive staves. These are not the final names. I just used the "++" to show they are "stronger" versions of that skill.

Gravity++: After combat, if unit attacked, prevents target and foes within 1 space of target from moving more than 1 space and nullify movement Assist skill (like Reposition,Shove, Pivot, etc.) used by unit or on unit through their next actions.

Fear++: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts the following status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions: "Damage will be calculated the same as staff weapons".

Slow++: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts the following status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions: "During combat, foe makes a guaranteed follow-up attack and unit cannot".

Pain++: After combat, if unit attacked, deals 15 damage to target and foes within 2 spaces of target and inflicts the following status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions: "unit cannot be healed by healing skills (like Renewal, Sparkling Boost, etc.) or healing Assist Skills (like Ardent Sacrifice, Recover+, etc.)".

Absorb++: Restores HP iqual to damage dealt. After combat, if unit attacked, restores HP to allies within 2 spaces of unit iqual to 50% of damage dealt.

Panic++: After combat, if unit attacked, bonuses on target and foes within 2 spaces of target become penalties and nullifies unit's in combat bonus granted by unit's skills (like Death Blow, Steady Stance, etc.) or allies' skills (like Spur Atk, Drive Atk, etc.) through their next actions".

Trilemma++: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts the following status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions: "If unit has weapon-triangle disadvantage, reduces Atk/Spd/Def/Res by 30%."

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Cain and Abel together at last. I'm expecting them to just get beefed up brave weapons. Though watch me oof when they end up with firesweep weapons instead and I'll have kicked myself for promoting +Atk versions of these two units instead of +Spd. Hey, in mid 2017, brave weapons and cavalry units were still high tier in the meta and these guys came with a free one.

One unit I won't be kicking myself over is Hana, however. I knew she'd get a personal weapon eventually and I've been sitting on a variety of boon/bane combinations for years. I'm running out of units to promote so her refinement came just in time.

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I'm hoping Peri gets something actually good. At least the weapon sprite is pretty, unlike Abel's shovel.

I'm also hoping Cain and Abel just get stronger Brave weapons.

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I do want to build more +10 cavalries (Cecilia being my only one currently), but unless any of these refines are absolutely exceptional, I'll continue to wait. Hopefully Oscar isn't too far away (and doesn't get Titania'd), and Ares' demotion hopefully makes him a viable project. My tally at the moment is, uh, three copies while Soleil who was in the same 4-5* but who I Do Not Want kept turning up. Irritating.

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Though watch me oof when they end up with firesweep weapons instead and I'll have kicked myself for promoting +Atk versions of these two units instead of +Spd.

For modes where Spd is not very competitive (Arena 720+, Abyssal), +Atk is generally better since you do not really need that much Spd if everyone else is a slowpoke. So even if you went with +Atk, I do not think it is the end of the world if they have Firesweep Weapons instead, since you can always give them a bit more Spd via Refinement if you do not like their special Refinement.

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