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DragonFlames

Well, that is... a thing

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So, I've finally got around to playing the DLC and I must say the new history mode maps are pretty interesting, the new characters as well (though I can stand Azura even less now and they utterly botched Linde's voice, but that's beside the point).

But... there is that ONE battle in Oboro's history mode map that restricts you to Spears only, so it's only Azura, Oboro, Hinoka, Cordelia and Shiida, three of whom are fliers, who are weak to bows. And what does half the map consist of? Archers and Snipers. Consider my pet peeved.

Thoughts?

Also, I have a new found loathing for "You have 5 minutes, kill as many mooks as you can" missions. Especially if an S-rank rewards you with a scroll for a weapon for a character you (want to) main, but you can't get it, because 1) none of the males are fast enough to kill 1,600 people in the span of 5 minutes and 2) they spawn slower than... something that is really slow.

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Minerva can give your other fliers Iote's shield if you're struggling with archers. Otherwise, have your fliers be the support partner in pairup to ignore the archers.

As for Timed Attack/Onslaught/Gold Rush missions, I find that Xander with Astra, Luna, and Lethality has the damage and mobility to dominate those maps.

Edited by Etheus

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Switch version player here. I hate those timed maps too. There's this level 107 Shadow Rush DLC mission with the shadows spread so far apart, and half of the enemies are regular infantry units that you can't use weapon effectiveness against. Reaching 1000 KOs within 7 minutes is going to be really difficult. I think I'll manage that once my units get more powerful (they are at level 104-ish and don't have Astra or Luna now, and not getting S rank at this point isn't exactly surprising).

 

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

So, I've finally got around to playing the DLC and I must say the new history mode maps are pretty interesting, the new characters as well (though I can stand Azura even less now and they utterly botched Linde's voice, but that's beside the point).

But... there is that ONE battle in Oboro's history mode map that restricts you to Spears only, so it's only Azura, Oboro, Hinoka, Cordelia and Shiida, three of whom are fliers, who are weak to bows. And what does half the map consist of? Archers and Snipers. Consider my pet peeved.

Thoughts?

Also, I have a new found loathing for "You have 5 minutes, kill as many mooks as you can" missions. Especially if an S-rank rewards you with a scroll for a weapon for a character you (want to) main, but you can't get it, because 1) none of the males are fast enough to kill 1,600 people in the span of 5 minutes and 2) they spawn slower than... something that is really slow.

Can't say anything about the voices. I play with Japanese voices (actually, the game itself is Japanese) and they seem fine to me. Except that Azura's singing gets in the way of the BGM and I don't like that.

I cleared that Oboro's map with Oboro and Azura (who aren't weak against bows) with the other two fliers hiding behind them via Pair Up.

As for that male-only mission, I gave Leo (level 104)'s weapon dragon effectiveness and Astra. I reached 2060 at the end, just above the 2000-KO requirement for S rank in the Switch version.

Edited by nocturnal YL

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Chrom is fairly handy for those missions if you spam his C6 in crowds (the Aether one). I had issues to get the scroll for Leo's tome. I think I finally got it by not pairing up the two units.

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Never had an issue with those. The right loadout and packing a powerful weapon can make a huge difference (Takumi's been my MVP this time around due to having his Opus).

Fates' characters in general help out the most when playing through the DLC for that very reason-- their Opuses have been available for longer and in lower-leveled missions.

And Astra is you friend.

Really, that's all the advice I can give.

Edited by The DanMan

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Never had much issue with the timed missions, tbh.  Really, anyone can be a decent crowd killer if you know how to use them.  And as others have and will continue pointing out, Astra is just objectively good for your units, so make sure Ryoma hosts lots of kegger parties with everyone at his place so that everyone can get the skill (and by that, I mean have everyone support him).

Lots of people seem to discount the DLC characters with unique movesets as "too slow", but I've actually liked Oboro and Linde better than other units who use their weapon types.  And for Minerva, I'm just glad I get to play as a wyvern rider that I like.

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3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Lots of people seem to discount the DLC characters with unique movesets as "too slow", but I've actually liked Oboro and Linde better than other units who use their weapon types.  And for Minerva, I'm just glad I get to play as a wyvern rider that I like.

I saw that a lot too. But once they both get Astra, they are amazing. Oboro is one of my favourites and Linde is working her way up to take Robin's place as my favourite mage.

Also you think that spear only mission is bad, try basically any Tomes/Stones only mission. They are the worst.

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Well, the Peg. Knight moveset when properly learned is pretty much amazing all around. The Peg. Knights have everything you want in a character, whether it is crowdkilling, dueling, or just plain great at getting to where you want to be. Weakness to Wingslayer (the most prevalent slayer on the enemy side) is a downer, but it's not enough to take them down from being the absolute best choice for anything you want to do.

I could live with Linde's slowness. What really makes her the worst of the magic users for me is that her attack string (and most of her attacks in general) doesn't hit very far to the sides of her and she kinda lacks Robin's pivoting ability which means that once she starts one of her better attacks, she kind of needs to commit to it. Further complicating matters, she has the lowest Defence in the entire game and the current lowest Resistance of all the mage units (and not by an insignificant amount either), which means long range units (archers and mages, particularly archers) threaten her more than any other unit in the game, with the possible exception of one other unit, and also makes her badly suited for going off on her own as a CPU. Abusing her Luck stat and the advantages of being a Tome moveset helps her stay on the higher end of good for me, but the other mages are just better.

As for Minerva, her stats are in all the right places compared to Camilla on paper: Higher strength (in fact, the current highest), skill, and luck, maximizing all relevant types of damage output... unfortunately, stats can only take her so far. As a Wyvern Rider, she suffers from the worst dueling ability in the game and the Wyvern Rider moveset being the best crowdclearer in the game bar none... isn't really as impressive as it sounds like when 90-95% of the movesets in the game has decent crowdclearers. As such, Wyvern Riders becomes reliant on other characters to duel for them or on Dual Specials to kill stuff harder and faster than a Base Class enemy (because constant C1ing is time-consuming, and more time wasted makes you that much more closer to the time requirement) as well as on various weapon skills to give them at least some use if they do need to face an enemy officer. Indeed, of all the characters/movesets in the game, the Wyvern Riders really do not want go into maps with enemies at a similiar level if they don't have a proper weapon built for them, character skills to increase their damage output, and/or a Pair-Up partner to fall back on.

And, well, remember how I said about Linde that long range units threaten her the most out of any other unit in the game? I might have been going a bit too fast to judge her. Minerva as a Wyvern Rider has the usual Wyvern Rider weaknesses AKA the two most prominent weaknesses wielded by the enemy side, which means that without Iote's Shield, she's taking high damage from both archers and mages (and certain character enemies that isn't archers or mages too)... and if she uses up a slot on Iote's Shield, she still needs to watch out for the stray spell cast her way. She has the lowest Resistance out of all the characters in the game by a significant amount (yes, even Frederick takes magic attacks better than her) so she really really needs to keep away from magic attacks, something that can be somewhat hard if multiple Sages sets their Thoron sights on her. Camilla will tank magic attacks better, particularly if she gets the Statflip skill (which, at Lv. 99, turns Str/Mag into physical and magial defenses respectively and Def/Res into physical and magical attack power; specifically 106 attack power and 679/99/44 defences become 99 attack power and 679/106/89 (!) defences which is a pretty solid tradeoff when you realize that the majority of your damage still come from Weapon Mt.; compare a similiarly leveled Minerva with a much better 129 Attack power, but only 784/114/26 (!) defences).

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2 hours ago, Azz said:

Also you think that spear only mission is bad, try basically any Tomes/Stones only mission. They are the worst.

I had a problem with one of those in this pack, but the problem was that I was too efficient and I ran out of enemies to kill before hitting the 2000 benchmark.

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Pegasus are only weak to bows if the AI is controlling.

Light Javelins are, like, one of the best moves in the entire game and outranges archers. Peggies are one of the best people to actually fight archers.

If you have Oboro and Azura, then you can have two peggies paired with them and the last under your control. Simple stuff. Iote's Shield is also a thing now, and Bowbreaker helps.

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10 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Pegasus are only weak to bows if the AI is controlling.

Light Javelins are, like, one of the best moves in the entire game and outranges archers. Peggies are one of the best people to actually fight archers.

If you have Oboro and Azura, then you can have two peggies paired with them and the last under your control. Simple stuff. Iote's Shield is also a thing now, and Bowbreaker helps.

Not true; even the fodder archers can leave some nasty hits if you try going in with no crests or Iote's shield, and bowbreaker is only really good at CAUSING damage, at least from my perspective...

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16 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

Chrom is fairly handy for those missions if you spam his C6 in crowds (the Aether one). I had issues to get the scroll for Leo's tome. I think I finally got it by not pairing up the two units.

That's good, because I love using Chrom and I am somewhat decent at playing as him, so I'll give that a try next time.
As for Leo, I haven't gotten the scroll for his Brynhildr tome yet, so I am pretty much screwed on that front. As well as the fact that on 3DS at least, mounted units that aren't on a pegasus suck hard, because they cover most of the screen, so you can't see what the enemy does while you wail on them. And because they move around so much, it's really easy to get disoriented and lose sight of the enemy you're trying to kill or you just get hit from off-screen.
Leo and Elise have it especially bad, because they are prone to get hit while attacking, because they are stationary for their strong attacks - which I swear have better range when they are AI controlled and on the opponent's side - meaning they die like nothing to any decent physical attacker. Not to mention that even with Astra, most enemies still outspeed their combos, meaning you can't deal any meaningful damage before needing to dodge and staggering seems pretty much impossible for the player to do. Because swinging a sword while being stabbed to death by dark magic spikes is totally something a Swordmaster can do. Totally.
And not even Pavise is enough to save them, I found. All in all, they are better suited as AI partners for me.

15 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Never had much issue with the timed missions, tbh.  Really, anyone can be a decent crowd killer if you know how to use them.  And as others have and will continue pointing out, Astra is just objectively good for your units, so make sure Ryoma hosts lots of kegger parties with everyone at his place so that everyone can get the skill (and by that, I mean have everyone support him).

Lots of people seem to discount the DLC characters with unique movesets as "too slow", but I've actually liked Oboro and Linde better than other units who use their weapon types.  And for Minerva, I'm just glad I get to play as a wyvern rider that I like.

Yup, I am always taking Ryoma with me on missions to get Astra on as many folks as possible. All the attackers I want to use save for Navarre and Linde have it at this point.

12 hours ago, Azz said:

I saw that a lot too. But once they both get Astra, they are amazing. Oboro is one of my favourites and Linde is working her way up to take Robin's place as my favourite mage.

Also you think that spear only mission is bad, try basically any Tomes/Stones only mission. They are the worst.

I don't know, Astra does little to save Elise and Leo from getting comboed to death by anything faster than an Axe Fighter (see above) and I highly doubt it will make Camilla and Minerva any less clunky.
As for Oboro and Azura, I gave both of them a spin and neither feel very good to play, honestly.
Tomes/Stones only missions never gave me trouble, because I like and am (kind of) decent at playing as Tiki.

All in all, I think most of my issues are a me problem (I am well aware that they probably are) and many of the recommended units control in a way that I'm just to stupid / terrible / whatever to get behind (mounts, mages and wyverns) and all the folks I can play as can't kill enemies fast enough. I think I'll have to live with the fact that Sakura will always be stuck at 240 power on her personal weapon, and that Leo will never be able to use his Brynhildr seriously, because that mission can go eff a gee, same with the "do you like fun, well TOO BAD!" mission: Bows only, 1,000 enemies in 10 minutes, they spawn slow as hell and can kill you really really fast because archers have crap for denfences, let's GO!
Sorry Lyn, no maxed out Sol Katti for you.

I really, really hope the mission for Celica's second scroll isn't one of these or I'm royally screwed.

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4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

That's good, because I love using Chrom and I am somewhat decent at playing as him, so I'll give that a try next time.
As for Leo, I haven't gotten the scroll for his Brynhildr tome yet, so I am pretty much screwed on that front. As well as the fact that on 3DS at least, mounted units that aren't on a pegasus suck hard, because they cover most of the screen, so you can't see what the enemy does while you wail on them. And because they move around so much, it's really easy to get disoriented and lose sight of the enemy you're trying to kill or you just get hit from off-screen.
Leo and Elise have it especially bad, because they are prone to get hit while attacking, because they are stationary for their strong attacks - which I swear have better range when they are AI controlled and on the opponent's side - meaning they die like nothing to any decent physical attacker. Not to mention that even with Astra, most enemies still outspeed their combos, meaning you can't deal any meaningful damage before needing to dodge and staggering seems pretty much impossible for the player to do. Because swinging a sword while being stabbed to death by dark magic spikes is totally something a Swordmaster can do. Totally.
And not even Pavise is enough to save them, I found. All in all, they are better suited as AI partners for me.

For that mission, it's hard to get 2000, but remember that the CPU KOs count so it was enough to push me over the top. Plus, you can quickly switch to the other to save movement time.

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4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

That's good, because I love using Chrom and I am somewhat decent at playing as him, so I'll give that a try next time.
As for Leo, I haven't gotten the scroll for his Brynhildr tome yet, so I am pretty much screwed on that front. As well as the fact that on 3DS at least, mounted units that aren't on a pegasus suck hard, because they cover most of the screen, so you can't see what the enemy does while you wail on them. And because they move around so much, it's really easy to get disoriented and lose sight of the enemy you're trying to kill or you just get hit from off-screen.
Leo and Elise have it especially bad, because they are prone to get hit while attacking, because they are stationary for their strong attacks - which I swear have better range when they are AI controlled and on the opponent's side - meaning they die like nothing to any decent physical attacker. Not to mention that even with Astra, most enemies still outspeed their combos, meaning you can't deal any meaningful damage before needing to dodge and staggering seems pretty much impossible for the player to do. Because swinging a sword while being stabbed to death by dark magic spikes is totally something a Swordmaster can do. Totally.
And not even Pavise is enough to save them, I found. All in all, they are better suited as AI partners for me.

Try using their C1 when the meter under their mini portrait is full. Their weaknesses are well-compensated by it. Maybe overcompensated. lol

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5 minutes ago, Technoweirdo said:

Try using their C1 when the meter under their mini portrait is full. Their weaknesses are well-compensated by it. Maybe overcompensated. lol

Okay, will do! Thank you!

Also, small update: I just completed the Spears only mission of Oboro's DLC map after getting two people to A support Minerva and giving Iote's Shield to Shiida and Cordelia. It's glorious being able to fly around the map and not having to be scared of Archers any more. I think, henceforth, Shiida will be my main, that is, IF the scrolls for her Wing Spear are actually, you know, obtainable, as in, not locked behind some "lol, kill 2,000 enemies in 5 minuted when like only 50 of them appear per minute" mission. Trying to get the Raijinto Scroll 2.0 now. I think I'll never get the second Fujin Yumi scroll, because you need to S-rank everything else, one of which is one of the "lol, kill 2,000 enemies in 5 minuted when like only 50 of them appear per minute" mission's variety... which I painstakingly got an A-rank for. F*** those missions. F*** them hard.

EDIT: I am aware the S-rank requirement for these missions have been reduced to 1,600 on 3DS... that doesn't make them any less impossible, though.

Edited by DragonFlames

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Also something to note: you don't need to be constantly attacking. I'll wait for the AI to open it's stun gauge before swooping in, if you know the attack you can even dodge INTO the damage frames and be right in their face as soon as a gauge pops up.

for 2k kills in 5 minutes if you can use Camilla, use Camilla. Then just B,X,B,X,B,X all over the place. The attack is fast, unlike the pegasus dive bomb, and can be dodged out of pretty much immediately so you can smash into the ground again.I think I got as high as 3k in 5 minutes with her. Also important, don't worry too much about killing captains. You'll need to kill a few but focusing on killing the little mooks is better.

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43 minutes ago, CmdrQuartz said:

for 2k kills in 5 minutes if you can use Camilla, use Camilla. Then just B,X,B,X,B,X all over the place. The attack is fast, unlike the pegasus dive bomb, and can be dodged out of pretty much immediately so you can smash into the ground again.I think I got as high as 3k in 5 minutes with her. Also important, don't worry too much about killing captains. You'll need to kill a few but focusing on killing the little mooks is better.

I tried that before, but for some reason, she would do a totally different attack. Instead of the jump bomb, she has this weird "land, then ineffectively swing axe" attack as her X-only move on 3DS (or I just messed up... it's probably that).
Killing mooks only is fine and all, but when the captains start to gang up on you, then things start to get a little hairy, especially on the mission for the Sol Katti scroll, which I failed because of that. That, and the fact that all Archers have shit-tier defences and dodging doesn't seem to give you that many invincibility frames.

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Maybe there is something different about the DS version but there should be two attacks you get coming out of flight. A normal string attack (normally Y) that has her like skid into the ground and the strong attack (normally X) that has her slam into the ground. What you described sounds like her standing strong attack that changes based on how much the bar under her portrait is charged. It might be an effect of input/game lag that you don't fully launch into the air before pressing X causing a normal standing strong attack. Being on the DS might very well be a disadvantage. If the game has a Performance vs Quality setting on the DS definitely go performance. I did it on the switch and it made getting 2k kills easier because more would actually be rendered to be killed.

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14 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I don't know, Astra does little to save Elise and Leo from getting comboed to death by anything faster than an Axe Fighter (see above) and I highly doubt it will make Camilla and Minerva any less clunky.

I can assure you, Astra makes a world of difference on Camilla. I haven't tried out Minerva yet, but if she shares her moves with Camilla, it will have the same affect on her too. The wyvern rider type gains the most benefit from Astra in your army. It is like playing a different character.

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18 hours ago, CmdrQuartz said:

Maybe there is something different about the DS version but there should be two attacks you get coming out of flight. A normal string attack (normally Y) that has her like skid into the ground and the strong attack (normally X) that has her slam into the ground. What you described sounds like her standing strong attack that changes based on how much the bar under her portrait is charged. It might be an effect of input/game lag that you don't fully launch into the air before pressing X causing a normal standing strong attack. Being on the DS might very well be a disadvantage. If the game has a Performance vs Quality setting on the DS definitely go performance. I did it on the switch and it made getting 2k kills easier because more would actually be rendered to be killed.

Oh, so the fliers have "dash" attacks? I didn't know that... damn, I feel stupid now.
Sadly, there is no setting for Perfomance VS Quality on 3DS (not that I've seen, anyway), so 3DS players are definitely SOL on that one.

12 hours ago, Omegaprism said:

I can assure you, Astra makes a world of difference on Camilla. I haven't tried out Minerva yet, but if she shares her moves with Camilla, it will have the same affect on her too. The wyvern rider type gains the most benefit from Astra in your army. It is like playing a different character.

That would be good. And yes, Minerva does share Camilla's moveset from what I've seen of her.

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On 21/02/2018 at 6:45 AM, DIO said:

Not true; even the fodder archers can leave some nasty hits if you try going in with no crests or Iote's shield, and bowbreaker is only really good at CAUSING damage, at least from my perspective...

That's only if you are bad enough that you get hit. 

And in a moveset where you are not only you outspeed Archers (allowing you to dive them before the AI decides you are a threat) but have your weak point gauge exposer in a move that outranges archers and is ridiculous on his own, you have no excuse for getting hit by a bow.

The Pegasi are simply that good.

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On 22.2.2018 at 4:32 PM, guedesbrawl said:

That's only if you are bad enough that you get hit. 

And in a moveset where you are not only you outspeed Archers (allowing you to dive them before the AI decides you are a threat) but have your weak point gauge exposer in a move that outranges archers and is ridiculous on his own, you have no excuse for getting hit by a bow.

The Pegasi are simply that good.

The excuses are input lag and them being able to just snipe you from offscreen if there's too many of them due to the fliers (and mounts in general) flipping around the screen so fast that the camera can't keep up. Also, the weak point gauge thing is not guaranteed from what I've witnessed.
Though with Minerva around, that is of no concern anymore.

Thanks to you guys' tips, I finally managed to beat the Spellbane Yumi Scroll 2.0 map. I did it with a combination of Chrom as the player character and Marth as the AI partner. I got around 1.328 kills with Chrom and the AI Marth managed another 390, so I barely got an S-rank on that mission. Now I just need a map where I can farm Sakura's materials. Anyone know a good one?

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4 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

The excuses are input lag and them being able to just snipe you from offscreen if there's too many of them due to the fliers (and mounts in general) flipping around the screen so fast that the camera can't keep up. Also, the weak point gauge thing is not guaranteed from what I've witnessed.
Though with Minerva around, that is of no concern anymore.

Thanks to you guys' tips, I finally managed to beat the Spellbane Yumi Scroll 2.0 map. I did it with a combination of Chrom as the player character and Marth as the AI partner. I got around 1.328 kills with Chrom and the AI Marth managed another 390, so I barely got an S-rank on that mission. Now I just need a map where I can farm Sakura's materials. Anyone know a good one?

The timed onslaught map with her icon might be a good one.

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