So... I was right?!

[omegaxis1]

Okay, so with Grima being out as a unit in FE Heroes, I got him and got his quote as well at LV40.

ANd my god, what a quote this is:

"You are a curious one... You willingly come to chat with me? The fell dragon? Alone? You know full well how I detest humans. They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire. They become arrogant and make the same mistakes repeatedly, incapable of learning the folly of their ways. They claim their actions are for the good of others, but that's merely a show of self-indulgence. Humans are selfish. And the ugliness of mankind has turned me repulsive. It's the world that wants me to be evil. And yet you claim to need me here? Enough of your lies, worm. How dare you look at me with such a gaze. Do not dare pity me!"

So a while back on an FE subreddit, I posted this:

And I cannot believe that I was actually right. Grima truly does hate the world because of humanity being evil. Yes, some texts about how he is created is different, but overall, the Grimleal act in that Grima is meant to punish the world, and Grima is doing just that. Humans are evil and want him to be, so he will gladly do so.

Like... WHAT?!

It was just my thought about what Grima could be. What he represents... BUT I'M RIGHT?!

... I just... What?

[Asmont Osborne]

Wow. Just wow.

That was some creepy shit.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

That's great that they're finally expanding on Grima. A bit late, perhaps, but still, between Echoes and this, maybe they've got more planned...? Though, I wouldn't want too many games to be in the same universe again.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Okay I seriously love that quote and I shall be pulling for Grima now.

I am so glad we're finally learning more about him. I find it hard to enjoy a game without knowledge of the enemy and I always wished for more knowledge on Grima. That little tidbit is really cool but I think this line:

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

"How dare you look at me with such a gaze. Do not dare pity me!"

Is the most interesting. Do not dare pity me. That adds a whole new level to Grima that I'd love to see explored.

[omegaxis1]

If you guy think about it, Grima might have every right to hate the world. 

1) Exactly what did he suffer at the hands of Forneus, his creator, for the 80+ days he was with him? What experiments did Grima undergo?

2) If we can take Act VI as canon, and Alm defeated Grima, but Grima's spirit lived on, then for 1000 years, he has been watching humanity, seeing the cruelties happening the entire time.

[Jingle Jangle]

Shadows of Valentia gave Grima a backstory, than Heroes gave Grima a defined personality and characterization. What's next, Anankos?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Shadows of Valentia gave Grima a backstory, than Heroes gave Grima a defined personality and characterization. What's next, Anankos?

Anankos did have a defined personality by the human form, and said human form told us the backstory. 

[Jingle Jangle]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Anankos did have a defined personality by the human form, and said human form told us the backstory. 

True, but what I'm referring to is Anankos being a strong villian.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Jingle Jangle

[Gebby]

Woah. I hate his art, but just for this, I kinda want him. Grima might have potential as a villain.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Gebby

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

True, but what I'm referring to is Anankos being a strong villian.

Sadly, Anankos is tied to the rest of Fates. Terrible writing. 

1 hour ago, Gebby said:

Woah. I hate his art, but just for this, I kinda want him. Grima might have potential as a villain.

#GrimaDidNothingWrong

[Interdimensional Observer]

Normally, I expect fanservice (not necessarily sexual fanservice) games to philanderize a character, to do some form of damage to their character. I also expect damage to be done by adding new things to old game stories and lores. Grima, although in Awakening itself still RAWR! trash, is breaking from what I'd expect. Good for them.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Normally, I expect fanservice (not necessarily sexual fanservice) games to philanderize a character, to do some form of damage to their character. I also expect damage to be done by adding new things to old game stories and lores. Grima, although in Awakening itself still RAWR! trash, is breaking from what I'd expect. Good for them.

If Grima was made to be generic as they come, then all you can do is build him from the ground up and see what could make him more interesting. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If Grima was made to be generic as they come, then all you can do is build him from the ground up and see what could make him more interesting. 

That is the one way to look at things things. If you toy with Tellius or Jugdral, you can do harm because they are already built in many ways, but Magvel, Fateslandia and Ylisse & Valm, being devoid of being worlds, so you have less to worry about.

 

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

1) Exactly what did he suffer at the hands of Forneus, his creator, for the 80+ days he was with him? What experiments did Grima undergo?

Ever the more reason to ignore Chrom and just kill Grima for good. Put the poor creature that never should have been out of its misery. It's mercy for the abomination.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

2) If we can take Act VI as canon, and Alm defeated Grima, but Grima's spirit lived on, then for 1000 years, he has been watching humanity, seeing the cruelties happening the entire time.

...And now you're making Grima sound like my fav. Which is a little odd, and an anti-Grima bias from Awakening does not like that (but I'm trying to get past it). This said, they are still quite distinct.

Grima was messed up from day one and never stopped being messed up. At best, Robin is a fragment of Grima that is sane and optimistic towards the world who ultimately triumphs.

My fav was born normal, sane and good with lots of hope, despaired into acts of suicide, kept hope alive, despaired again, restored their hope, suddenly gained lots of hope, suddenly fell into total despair, even thereafter never showed real anger the way Grima always bears their teeth, and provided certain conditions are met, my fav lives again hopeful and sane once more.

I fine with misanthropes, and I guess this shows there is room in how you make them?

[omegaxis1]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is the one way to look at things things. If you toy with Tellius or Jugdral, you can do harm because they are already built in many ways, but Magvel, Fateslandia and Ylisse & Valm, being devoid of being worlds, so you have less to worry about.

Well, there are plenty of ways of fixing Tellius and Jugdral stories. Like the issue with the minor bloods and how they can prove it, and whether just claiming Arvis has Loptyr Blood is genuinely enough to make him be persecuted and burned at the stake, despite how he is Crusader descent and is an influential man. Or why Manfroy let Julia live as long as she did. Or Loptyr being a bit more developed, cause he's more generic than even Grima was. 

And the Tellius series needs the blood contracts explained for one thing. 

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ever the more reason to ignore Chrom and just kill Grima for good. Put the poor creature that never should have been out of its misery. It's mercy for the abomination.

Not that Grima even knows if he wants death. But maybe he does.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

...And now you're making Grima sound like my fav. Which is a little odd, and an anti-Grima bias from Awakening does not like that (but I'm trying to get past it). This said, they are still quite distinct.

Grima was messed up from day one and never stopped being messed up. At best, Robin is a fragment of Grima that is sane and optimistic towards the world who ultimately triumphs.

My fav was born normal, sane and good with lots of hope, despaired into acts of suicide, kept hope alive, despaired again, restored their hope, suddenly gained lots of hope, suddenly fell into total despair, even thereafter never showed real anger the way Grima always bears their teeth, and provided certain conditions are met, my fav lives again hopeful and sane once more.

I fine with misanthropes, and I guess this shows there is room in how you make them?

Indeed. What hope did Grima ever get? Why would Grima ever believe in the concept of love, bonds, friendship, and hope, when he was never given these things, and those things didn't stop him in the original timeline? By all means, he has every right to look down on them. 

And if he wanted to prolong humanity's suffering, its to make them feel the pain they had inflicted on him for the many years he had existed experiencing their hypocrisy.

[Interdimensional Observer]

22 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, there are plenty of ways of fixing Tellius and Jugdral stories. Like the issue with the minor bloods and how they can prove it, and whether just claiming Arvis has Loptyr Blood is genuinely enough to make him be persecuted and burned at the stake, despite how he is Crusader descent and is an influential man. Or why Manfroy let Julia live as long as she did. Or Loptyr being a bit more developed, cause he's more generic than even Grima was. 

And the Tellius series needs the blood contracts explained for one thing.

I'm not so arrogant to deny there is room for improvement in both continents, all games and worlds could use some. The Blood Pact being one such thing most certainly in need of explanation, being so vague stabs Tellius in the back.

I'm doing a little bit of filling in the Telliusian timeline for my current fanfict stuff, not much and just in spurts, but I feel like it for some reason. I've more or less finished all I want to do with Caradock, founder of Crimea at this point.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Arthur97]

Huh, that quote kind of shoots down my theory on why he hates humanity, but this view seems a bit hard to correlate to the laughing while he burns the world to the ground evil dragon.

[omegaxis1]

44 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm not so arrogant to deny there is room for improvement in both continents, all games and worlds could use some. The Blood Pact being one such thing most certainly in need of explanation, being so vague stabs Tellius in the back.

I'm doing a little bit of filling in the Telliusian timeline for my current fanfict stuff, not much and just in spurts, but I feel like it for some reason. I've more or less finished all I want to do with Caradock, founder of Crimea at this point.

I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect story. I mean, even Path of Radiance wasn't necessarily perfect. But it did do very well.

5 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Huh, that quote kind of shoots down my theory on why he hates humanity, but this view seems a bit hard to correlate to the laughing while he burns the world to the ground evil dragon.

Speaking of which, one of Grima's voiced lines is actually this:

Quote

 Play "If I were human, and able to live among you... Then perhaps..."

Grima hates humanity, but the way he actually says this, the tone of it, actually implies that a part of him truly wondered what it would be like to have been a true human. 

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect story. I mean, even Path of Radiance wasn't necessarily perfect. But it did do very well.

Speaking of which, one of Grima's voiced lines is actually this:

Grima hates humanity, but the way he actually says this, the tone of it, actually implies that a part of him truly wondered what it would be like to have been a true human. 

To be honest, I don't think I like him being so vulnerable. Grima was at least set on a path and sure of it. This second guessing seems out of place.

Plus, he could always dig into Robin's memories and such. Then again, maybe that's were the second guessing is coming from.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

To be honest, I don't think I like him being so vulnerable. Grima was at least set on a path and sure of it. This second guessing seems out of place.

Plus, he could always dig into Robin's memories and such. Then again, maybe that's were the second guessing is coming from.

Grima is using human vessels. And that isn't to say that the human consciousness is gone. Its just buried deep inside. Grima likely did draw some form of emotion from that, but his hatred of humanity is very likely the quote he said.

As for why Grima seems to show more vulnerability, the quotes indicate that he's lost most of his memories. Even the most vicious of evils cannot make a move to destroy everything when they are lacking in memories at times.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

To be honest, I don't think I like him being so vulnerable. Grima was at least set on a path and sure of it. This second guessing seems out of place.

I can understand this. Sometimes you want villains to be sympathetic, other times just ruthlessly evil.

The Black Knight some would say has a similar issue, PoR has him as a ruthless monster of an enigmatic human being, RD, right at the end reveals Zelgius was insecure, and that ultimately, the reason he went to work for evil causes, was because someone was willing to make him feel less alone. Maybe if this was all in one game it'd be fine. But PoR came out several years before RD, and people got used to the BK as a ruthless warrior, the sudden reveal of weakness is off-putting, and I think I might agree with these critics to some extent.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima is using human vessels. And that isn't to say that the human consciousness is gone. Its just buried deep inside. Grima likely did draw some form of emotion from that, but his hatred of humanity is very likely the quote he said.

As for why Grima seems to show more vulnerability, the quotes indicate that he's lost most of his memories. Even the most vicious of evils cannot make a move to destroy everything when they are lacking in memories at times.

Well, we know Robin resurfaces in Future Past, so Robin isn't completely gone. 

Hmm, so Grima itself lost it's memories? That's an interesting development. Perhaps they needed to keep Grima in check some way, but I did think the amnesia quote in the character descriptions was a bit odd. I thought they may have been having it be more of a duality between Robin and Grima. That Robin was a much more important part of the equation.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Well, we know Robin resurfaces in Future Past, so Robin isn't completely gone. 

Hmm, so Grima itself lost it's memories? That's an interesting development. Perhaps they needed to keep Grima in check some way, but I did think the amnesia quote in the character descriptions was a bit odd. I thought they may have been having it be more of a duality between Robin and Grima. That Robin was a much more important part of the equation.

Yeah, this quote does seem to reflect that quote in Heroes:

Quote

Robin: ...I am Grima! There is nothing human about me!
Lucina: ......
Robin: ...I have always been the fell dragon... ...since the day I was born... ...I wish that I were human! That I could have lived a normal life with you! ...But I'm not, and I can't...

We should remember that Grima would be an incarnation of destruction and would likely wipe out everyone and everything. But to join forces with the other villains and then be summoned by even us, it means that Grima is somehow kept in check. Else he would go crazy on us all. But if he himself is lacking in memories and possibly also lacking his full powers, he won't go crazy on us.

[Arthur97]

22 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I can understand this. Sometimes you want villains to be sympathetic, other times just ruthlessly evil.

The Black Knight some would say has a similar issue, PoR has him as a ruthless monster of an enigmatic human being, RD, right at the end reveals Zelgius was insecure, and that ultimately, the reason he went to work for evil causes, was because someone was willing to make him feel less alone. Maybe if this was all in one game it'd be fine. But PoR came out several years before RD, and people got used to the BK as a ruthless warrior, the sudden reveal of weakness is off-putting, and I think I might agree with these critics to some extent.

An apt analogy. I kind of liked the ruthlessness of Grima. I think Echoes gave a plausible reason for Grima to do what it did (yes, give Grima's origins, Grima very well could be an it). This somewhat erodes that (evil) confidence.

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, this quote does seem to reflect that quote in Heroes:

We should remember that Grima would be an incarnation of destruction and would likely wipe out everyone and everything. But to join forces with the other villains and then be summoned by even us, it means that Grima is somehow kept in check. Else he would go crazy on us all. But if he himself is lacking in memories and possibly also lacking his full powers, he won't go crazy on us.

Except, I don't think Robin is Grima. Even the Heroes description says he's taken over by Grima. It's entirely possible that Robin is being hard on himself (understandable given all that happened because he failed). 

Alternatively or even congruently, going with what I said above, one other method of watering Grima down may have been to give Robin a little more control therefore keeping Grima in check. Actually, having Robin just in control enough to sort of direct Grima but not enough to regain his body could add to the tragedy of it all. In fact, Tiki implied in Future Past 3 that Robin actually seemed to hide knowledge from Grima so that he would forget that "killing" Tiki would essentially move where the Awakening could be preformed. That or he goaded Grima into "killing" her knowing what would happen.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Arthur97

[omegaxis1]

30 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

An apt analogy. I kind of liked the ruthlessness of Grima. I think Echoes gave a plausible reason for Grima to do what it did (yes, give Grima's origins, Grima very well could be an it). This somewhat erodes that (evil) confidence.

Well, if we go by your case where Grima and Robin are struggling for dominance over the body, then its possible that the personality simply had a small mixture, so Grima is actually more calm and not wanting to be a raging monster. 

31 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Except, I don't think Robin is Grima. Even the Heroes description says he's taken over by Grima. It's entirely possible that Robin is being hard on himself (understandable given all that happened because he failed). 

Alternatively or even congruently, going with what I said above, one method of watering Grima down may have been to give Robin a little more control therefore keeping Grima in check. Actually, having Robin just in control enough to sort of direct Grima but not enough to regain his body could add to the tragedy of it all. In fact, Tiki implied in Future Past 3 that Robin actually seemed to hide knowledge from Grima so that he would forget that killing Tiki would essentially move where the Awakening could be preformed. 

Well, the case on Future Past is that Robin is labeled as Grima, but here in Heroes, Grima is labeled as Robin. Robin in Future Past accepted that he is Grima and he failed to stop his destiny. Heroes Grima is showing how Robin is still holding some more influence, but not actually stopping Grima from moving, but limited in his powers.

[Anacybele]

Though interesting, it's kind of late. I still don't get why a lot of this wasn't already in Awakening. Grima would've been a much better villain then.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Anacybele