Need help settling an argument.

[Paterick]

So, I was discussing with some folks FE8's Summoner class, and how the Shaman's promotions could have been handled better. Basically, each of the three of us had a different idea for the ideal promotion options for Shaman. We're all satisfied with the Druid as it is, we're just concerned with the Summoner. Here are the main three arguments:

1. The Summoner is fine as it is.

Basically, the idea that the Summoner is viable enough and interesting enough not to warrant any change.

2. Have Shamans promote to Sage instead of Summoner.

Shamans would promote to Sage instead of Summoner. This change would come with a second major change: Sages would only be allowed to have one school of offensive magic. Monks who promoted to Sage would only have Light magic and Staves, Mages would only have Anima and Staves, and Shamans would naturally only have Dark and Staves. This sort of change isn't unheard of: Paladins lost access to Axes when Great Knights were introduced in FE8. I don't personally fancy this concept; it leaves the Shaman with two promotion options that are even more similar than the Druid and Summoner were, and it reduces incentive for Monks and Mages to promote to Sage instead of Bishop or Mage Knight, respectively.

3. Replace the Summoner promotion with a mounted Dark Knight promotion.

This is the idea that I prefer: the Dark Knight would be a mounted unit with access to Dark magic and Staves. Its stats would be balanced differently than the Druid's: I'm not sure of the specifics, but most likely less Magic and Skill, but more Speed, though not by a drastic amount. These stat differences would be similar to the differences between Sage and Mage Knight. I think this would have been a good alternative to the Summoner because it creates a meaningful and noticeable visual and practical difference between the Shaman's two promotion options. However, it's worth noting that there are two classes that already exist in FE8 (Valkyrie and Mage Knight) which are fairly similar to this Dark Knight, so that might be reason for concern.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, so respond letting me know which of these ideas you think would have worked best in FE8.

[Von Ithipathachai]

I would be okay with either 1 or 3.

I don't see any redundancy problems with the proposed Dark Knight class, since Valkyries and Mage Knights already wield different types of magic for offense.  In fact, I personally would change the Troubadour's Mage Knight promotion to Dark Knight.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1 or 3 are fine. 2 should just be scrapped from the argument because then it defeats the entire purpose of Sage being a choice for Monk and then for Mage the choice would obviously be Mage Knight because the Sage's "better" caps are superfluous.

If I have to pick one option here though, definitely Summoner because it is unique and more interesting than just adding a 3rd magic class on a mount offers utility independent of the character's stats. Too bad the staff rank for summoner suffers from the same issue newly acquired weapon types have for promoted classes: low starting weapon rank... those really should start at C.

[thecrimsonflash]

The summoner is my favorite class in the sacred stones, so naturally I have to say 1 is a good choice, the dark knight is ok, but the typical "Now with lower caps and a horse" promotion feels kind of dull, and sage makes no sense given how dark magic is treated in fire emblem.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

2 is just stupid to be honest

Because why go for Dark Magic and Staves when you can go for Dark Magic, Anima Magic and Staves?

[Reality]

The real use of the summoner is enemy manipulation and maybe ferrying other units (the phantom dropping strategy you see in some FE8 drafts)

The summoner is still problematic if you treat it as a utility only class, since unlike a dancer, it isn't quite useful enough to justify its use over a combat unit. (when all units are allowed)

it's also annoying that you get it so late in the game, since flier mobility that WANTS to go into ballista/arow range would actually be useful in a few chapters which currently have a flier-strategy (the eiraka route carcino chapter comes to mind). Summoner-dropping would be interesting in a few FE6 and FE7 chapters in a hack for similiar reasons.

The way I see it, there are two ways to fix  the summoner (and the phantoms)

A: Make the summoner and phantoms into even more of a support class (it can keep dark tomes, but I expect it's  combat to be like the 3DS dancers at best)

B: Give the Phantoms some enemy phase potential.

The current combat of the phantoms is more or less like archers- if they can reach an enemy on the same turn they are summoned, you get 1 player phase attack, and then they do no damage whatsoever on enemy phase. On the next player phase, that turn's phantom also gets 1 player phase attack, and so on. This is unacceptable in a game where javelins and hand axes are buyable in massive quantities on your other units. 

I'm not really sure what kind of balance you would go for. Maybe give phantoms the stats of the summoner himself similiar to the Replicate skill in Fates.   Maybe give it a generic enemy's level up curve (and be non-targetable by healing). Maybe go through differnt monster summon types depending on the summoner''s level. Maybe instead of giving the phantoms hit points, give them all vantage by default.

If it has to stay the way it currently is at least make combat exp that phantoms make transfer to the summoner, so you can realistically see things like the movement growth that they have.

Obviously making phantoms dodge tanks or giving them a lot of bulk (2-3 hits should be a hard limit) would also cause  problems. Although you could possibly get away with it if you were only allowed 1 phantom per map instead of 1 alive at a time. 

[Jotari]

Don't even see why it's a question. Summoners are awesome. If anything, it's the boring old Druid that should be replaced by a Dark Knight.

[Refa]

Summoner should be buffed, not changed.  Agree with the above that I'd rather have Druid changed, if anything.

[Interdimensional Observer]

The fact you can only have a single Phantom out any time and that they don't have quite the insane enemy AI priority SoV Invokes do IRRC keeps them from being too good.

For some reason, I do recall having some very dodgy Phantoms with Knoll, they apparently average 20 Lck and 13-14 AS at 20, but given they die so easy and can be replaced every turn, I'm sure those dodgy ones were just lucky spawns.

If we had to enhance the Summoner, maybe give Phantoms some Def and Res (capping at like 10-15) and about 15-20 HP, perhaps with the Summoner now losing HP when summoning. Some durability, but not too much for the Phantoms, enough to survive a round in some cases, but still low enough to manipulate the enemy into attacking them. No ability to target the Phantoms with heals perhaps.

Or, they can allow you to make both one Great Phantom (the upgrades I just described), and one or several regular Phantoms (the kind currently in game).

Ewan's Phantoms, for all the work you have to put in to get them, need better stats. All they have is lots of Str.

 

Druids need much better stats or a Crit bonus or something to make them usable over Summoners, since Anima is nice, but doesn't do much and the stat boosts are too small to matter as is outside of Link Arena.

A Dark Knight would be fair replacement, but then comes the issue of enemy Dark Magic users having to be either mounted, or foot soldiers with summoning powers if they don't want to keep Druid as an enemy only class. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Dandy Druid]

I'd rather replace Druid. It kind of has no sizzle compared to Summoner. At least with Summoner I can spawn some temporary shields in a pinch. A Druid is just slow and is outdone by its anima counterparts, IMO.

[nnhh]

Summoner is perfect. Give Knoll/Ewan your Boots and there's no need for a pony.

[Prologo]

1, summoner is fine