Grima's Power and Fellblood

[omegaxis1]

Okay, so I was talking to my friend about Grima in Heroes, and we also talked about the case on his sealing by the Falchion empowered by the Shield of Seals.

In it, I mentioned something I realized from another person telling me. I was explained that there was in fact never any mention of a time limit of Grima's sealing. Naga mentions that Grima was sealed a thousand years ago and sleep was the only way to stop him. But this means that the Sealing of Grima, once performed, stays in place normally.

However, two things I have come to understand.

1) The Grimleal's attempts and desire for the Fire Emblem and the Five Gemstones makes perfect sense now. They aren't doing it to accelerate Grima's awakening. It's to actually to remove the seal. Since it was the Shield of Seals' power to put Grima to sleep, using it can also have the opposite effect. Even if there were no vessels, removing the seal sets Grima's spirit free at the very least, and who knows what he could do. He had to have done something during the First Exalt's time.

2) Creating a perfect vessel can actually have an effect on the seal. For years, apparently a thousand, the Grimleal strived to create a suitable vessel for Grima, someone with a pure enough Fellblood to have the Heart of Grima, and thus they could awaken Grima from this. In fact, this actually does seem to be for real. Future!Robin awakens Grima by being the vessel for him, and using the offering. Meaning that a vessel can in fact break open the seal.

This in turn made me come to learn and accept several things.

• Grima's Power

After the seal is broken, we are told that Grima is trying to restore his power. But he's already in dragon form, so why is he not just wrecking havoc? Well, recall Medeus in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery of the Emblem. In both of these cases, it's revealed that Medeus has not in fact fully revived. Medeus cannot use his full powers outside the Dolhr castle in Shadow Dragon, and in New Mystery, he would be fully revived after draining the life force of the four clerics.

Get it? Grima is in fact under the same conditions, where even after being revived, he has not yet reached his full powers. This actually makes sense when you look at how Future Past Grima is stronger than Awakening's Grima. It makes sense because the Future Past Grima had years to restore his power, while Awakening Grima had only about a few days to weeks to regain his power, so its not as much. Not to mention, in a Bad Ending of The Future Past 3, where Grima is injured but not dead, Robin tells Lucina that the injuries that he had taken will force Grima to sleep so that he can recharge some of his power. This could also mean that his revival after being defeated back in SoV and sealed in the First Exalt's time, may have required Grima a much longer period of rest before he could even be revived normally.

• Fellblood

Okay, so the popular theory is that Validar and Robin's mother were Minor Fellbloods and thus having Robin makes a Major Fellblood.

I... am starting to actually accept this. But not that they were Major and Minor.

For the most part, there hasn't been a fully understanding as to how Grima even spread is bloodline in the First Exalt's time, since he couldn't have taken human form and banged any chicks. And even if he did, he should already have had a vessel from his child, since Grima is pure Fellblood. So it genuinely could not have taken them 1000 years to produce someone with a pure Fellblood like Robin.

But then I random joked this question in my head, "If only they injected someone with Grima's blood. Then they'd be Fellbloods."

And just like that, a million lightbulbs flashed in my head, everything making sense now.

Imagine this scenario:

Grima has possessed a human in the First Exalt's time, and this human has now become Grima's vessel, pure Fellblood. He suddenly gets cut by something, and blood spills out. Afterwards, Grima's body is destroyed by the First Exalt.

The first Grimleal actually COLLECTS the Fellblood that spilled and takes it in to experiment with. Maybe some ingest it, and then maybe others inject it to someone into their bloodstream.

That's pretty much it. What if the Grimleal actually created a very small, very dilute Fellbloodline, and with that, struggled to create a new vessel. But because it's so dilute, it was incredibly hard to actually produce more powerful Fellbloods, but they still strived for it. Furthermore, by producing several descendants, the blood has spread throughout many people, so many Plegians have Fellblood in them, and perhaps spread to other places as well.

Meaning yes, I am conceding that Robin's mother might indeed have Fellblood in her, but not Minor Fellblood, but just a stronger blood, like 10% Fellblood that when she and Validar, the strongest Fellblood, got together, it created Robin, who had the purest Fellblood. This also means that even if Grima is defeated, there are a bunch more Fellbloods out there that has the potential to create a new vessel for Grima. So its like, so long as humanity exists, Grima will also exist.

However, do not take this to mean that I'm saying that Grima losing his descendants means he will die. Because he certainly will not. Grima will always have a way to revive himself, even if no Fellbloods remain. If his spirit remains alive in the world, he will come back always, one way or another. Grima is neither Loptyr nor Medeus. He has surpassed both of them in terms of revivability.

[Shoblongoo]

I've always considered a perfectly valid explanation for some of the supposed plot holes around the role of the gemstones  and the fire emblem in Awakening and the supposed conditions for Awakening Grima to simply be:

The Grimleal were acting with incomplete information, and a lot of what they were doing was simply guesswork. They thought they understood how the Shield of Seals worked and what they needed to do to Awaken Grima. But they didn't really know what they were doing. They were acting on religious conviction and rumor and superstition rather than cold-hard fact.   

And they just kinda...fuck it up...

__________

We can speculate wildly why the fel bloodline exists; there isn't really anything in the lore to support one idea over another.

...Grima could have manifested an avatar form that physically procreated with a human. 
...Grima's blood could have been bestowed upon a human through processes of alchemy similar to those that created Grima in the first place.
...Grima could have pulled an Anankos DLC mcguffin, and bestowed felblood upon a favored human as a "blessing" or reward for performing some service.

We have no idea.

__________

This is something I've always thought about. Consider the following hypothetical bloodline:

-(M)Robin marries Lissa.  
-Lissa and Robin make Odin, who has both Exalted Blood and Fel Blood
-Odin marries (f)Corrin  

Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons

Ophelia becomes a witch.

Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons, AND Duma's Might



 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Dragoncat]

4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

This is something I've always thought about. Consider the following hypothetical bloodline:

-(M)Robin marries Lissa.  
-Lissa and Robin make Odin, who has both Exalted Blood and Fel Blood
-Odin marries (f)Corrin  

Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons

Ophelia becomes a witch.

Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons, AND Duma's Might

Fates witches aren't women who sacrificed their souls to Duma though, they don't even exist outside DLC.

Unless Ophelia travels to Valentia?

[Jingle Jangle]

Interesting analysis, however I do have a problem with the Fellblood idea. If you do say the Grima can never truly be defeated, I feel that cheapens Robin's sacrifice if no matter what anyone does, Grima will come back to bring terror back to the world.

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

The Grimleal were acting with incomplete information, and a lot of what they were doing was simply guesswork. They thought they understood how the Shield of Seals worked and what they needed to do to Awaken Grima. But they didn't really know what they were doing. They were acting on religious conviction and rumor and superstition rather than cold-hard fact.   

And they just kinda...fuck it up...

Well, that's very debatable. I mean, the Shield of Seals is very powerful, and using some magic, they could easily make use of the power in it. And it had to have worked after all, because the Grimleal DID unseal Grima that led to Robin's possession in the original timeline. The Awakening timeline had Future!Robin fully embrace his lineage and break the seal by drawing in enough power from the sacrifices. 

5 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

We can speculate wildly why the fel bloodline exists; there isn't really anything in the lore to support one idea over another.

...Grima could have manifested an avatar form that physically procreated with a human. 
...Grima's blood could have been bestowed upon a human through processes of alchemy similar to those that created Grima in the first place.
...Grima could have pulled an Anankos DLC mcguffin, and bestowed felblood upon a favored human as a "blessing" or reward for performing some service.

We have no idea.

The issue on the first one is that if he did, that person would have had the purest Fellblood from the info we know about the Holy Blood from Genealogy. There wouldn't have been any form of dilution then that would require 1000 years of effort.

Second one is a lot like what I said. The first Grimleal found and planted it. If Grima was not present when the blood was ingested, it would possibly create a diluted bloodline.

Third one would have also created a Major Bloodline because of the fact that Grima gave it. That's precisely how Galle and the 12 Crusaders got their Major Bloodline. The blood pact works with the blood bestowing blood. It would not have ever diluted and thus there would not have been a need for 1000 years of effort.

5 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

This is something I've always thought about. Consider the following hypothetical bloodline:

-(M)Robin marries Lissa.  
-Lissa and Robin make Odin, who has both Exalted Blood and Fel Blood
-Odin marries (f)Corrin  
Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons
Ophelia becomes a witch.
Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons, AND Duma's Might

Yeah, see... not likely to happen. 

Based on how the Holy Blood in Genealogy worked, you really cannot inherit more than two different dragon bloodlines. One is Major, and the other is Minor. Think of it like 2/3rd is one dragon, the other is 1/3rd. There's no 50/50 here in fact. Holy Blood does not work the same way as human bloodlines do. 

So even if Ophelia is born between Odin and Corrin, Ophelia would not likely have the bloodline to work in that way. 

Just now, Jingle Jangle said:

Interesting analysis, however I do have a problem with the Fellblood idea. If you do say the Grima can never truly be defeated, I feel that cheapens Robin's sacrifice if no matter what anyone does, Grima will come back to bring terror back to the world.

No. Robin's sacrifice is the ONLY way to kill Grima. Simply because of the fact that Robin killing Grima is the act of Grima killing himself. I am referring to if the descendants are killed. If every fellblood dies, Grima won't die. But if a pure Fellblood like Robin kills the awakened Grima, Grima will die. 

But see, this is normally impossible. It only worked because Grima went back in time. So Robin was free and Grima was out, thus allowing the one method to kill Grima to exist. 

So yes, under normal circumstances, it is 100% impossible to ever kill Grima. But what happened in Awakening is not the normal circumstance. It as Robin abusing the one loophole that exists.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

The whole ingesting blood thing reminds me of a vampire and now I'm imagining the Grimleal (and Grima) as vampires. That would be way scarier than zombies, go up against a whole army of flipping vampires.

6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Ophelia now has: Exalted Blood, Fel Blood, Blood of the First Dragons, AND Duma's Might



 

A++ gif usage, have a cookie :)

You know this whole thing about an immortal Grima makes me wonder how he'd handle Ashunera.... Either way! I must admit to never liking them changing Fire Emblem to Shield of Seals but it does make sense for this one because of the whole Grima thing.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

You know this whole thing about an immortal Grima makes me wonder how he'd handle Ashunera.... Either way! I must admit to never liking them changing Fire Emblem to Shield of Seals but it does make sense for this one because of the whole Grima thing.

Shield of Seals is in fact the original name though. It was called the Fire Emblem by the thief that stole it, since it was what had brought him the fortune that helped him found the kingdom of Archanea. 

As for how Grima would handle Ashunera... HAHAHAHA! Yeah no. Grima would need to likely consume several more planets before he could match Ashunera. Like, I love Grima, but I think the Goddesses of the Tellius series made it clear that they are in a league of their own. Hell, only reason Ike could even take down Ashera was to just because Ashera was still weakened, but because Yune gave Ike all her power.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Still the series is Fire Emblem. I get it but it still feels odd to me xD Maybe I'm just weird.

I really wish we had seen Ashunera's full strength. Maybe a more complete flashback from Yune? But still, Grima is said to be immortal so could Ashunera kill him? Sure she could handle him easily enough as he is, but does that also make her stronger than Naga? The concept of duality and needing that balance is a great one and I wish they would explore it more. They had a great opportunity with Grima vs Naga and didn't really do anything with it.

I don't know, I'm tired so I'm rambling.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Still the series is Fire Emblem. I get it but it still feels odd to me xD Maybe I'm just weird.

I really wish we had seen Ashunera's full strength. Maybe a more complete flashback from Yune? But still, Grima is said to be immortal so could Ashunera kill him? Sure she could handle him easily enough as he is, but does that also make her stronger than Naga? The concept of duality and needing that balance is a great one and I wish they would explore it more. They had a great opportunity with Grima vs Naga and didn't really do anything with it.

I don't know, I'm tired so I'm rambling.

Well, I mean Lehran's Medallion is called the Fire Emblem too because of the blue flames it emits when Yune's chaos energy grows too strong. 

If a single emotional outburst resulted in sending a blood that drowned most of the world in an instant, yeah, she's legit. Plus, Naga says that she does not possess the powers of making nor unmaking. Ashunera does possess the power of creation, though it is lost when she was split into two, but before that, she was the one that created the world and the creatures living there. She only did not expect her creations to evolve. 

See, when Grima's body is destroyed, his spirit remains mostly untouched. Robin is the only one that can destroy that normally. But Ashunera might actually be able to touch that spirit and strip it of any quintessence that is merged into it. Without quintessence, the soul cannot stay in the mortal plane, and Grima would cease to exist there.

[Køkø]

Alright, I finally got around to looking at this. Once again, you've managed to deliver yet another solid theory.  

However, I'm not sure if FE4 style blood applies here or works that way. Remember the blood bonding/drinking distinction? How do they even test it anyway? It's not like they have a regalia. 

And was it ever explained why Grima needed a human vessel or did I miss something? 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

However, I'm not sure if FE4 style blood applies here or works that way. Remember the blood bonding/drinking distinction? How do they even test it anyway? It's not like they have a regalia. 

That's just it. The Grimleal may not have known ANYTHING. They may only have gotten things from legends and such. Like how the first Galle that met Loptyr went to him because he believed drinking the blood of dragons would grant him power and immortality. It's similar to that. 

But to be honest, I feel that perhaps through the thousand years, they may have been able to perfect a magic spell or created an object (Grima's Truth perhaps), that allows them to sense the blood and strength of the blood of Grima inside the person. So piecing together all the information they can gather in legends, they or perhaps through spells, or even from theories, that a more purer blood is required for Grima to revive. We're talking about fanatics here after all, so they were prepared to try anything. 

4 minutes ago, Køkø said:

And was it ever explained why Grima needed a human vessel or did I miss something? 

If Grima took a human vessel during the First Exalt's time, they may have believed that was to be the case. In fact, if there are the Jugdral series in legends about how Loptyr was revived by someone born with major blood, they may had searched for a way to believe that Grima can be revived the same way. 

[Køkø]

33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's just it. The Grimleal may not have known ANYTHING. They may only have gotten things from legends and such. Like how the first Galle that met Loptyr went to him because he believed drinking the blood of dragons would grant him power and immortality. It's similar to that. 

Sure, but if this theory is correct, then FE4 style blood does apply here, which raises even more questions. 

36 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

If Grima took a human vessel during the First Exalt's time, they may have believed that was to be the case. In fact, if there are the Jugdral series in legends about how Loptyr was revived by someone born with major blood, they may had searched for a way to believe that Grima can be revived the same way. 

Isn't he in MU's body though? I hope you know what I'm talking about because Awakening's time travel BS is confusing as hell.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Sure, but if this theory is correct, then FE4 style blood does apply here, which raises even more questions. 

Ah, but I mentioned in my scenario, that the blood is ingested/injected AFTER Grima was sealed away. Meaning that this was not performed as a Holy Blood pact. It is from the act of taking the blood only after Grima is sealed away that they ended up creating the small diluted bloodline. No Major or Minor blood, but rather just the small trace of fellblood in them. It's only through repeated experiments and breeding that they likely theorized that they needed a stronger blood. 

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Isn't he in MU's body though? I hope you know what I'm talking about because Awakening's time travel BS is confusing as hell.

Grima's spirit isn't actually sealed inside anyone. The Heart of Grima is possibly a term that is used to describe one that can carry the soul of Grima. The Future Grima Robin that came back was the perfect vessel, and by absorbing the life energy of the sacrifices, Future Grima awakened the present Grima back. Because Future Grima is still a vessel with a Heart of Grima.

[Køkø]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ah, but I mentioned in my scenario, that the blood is ingested/injected AFTER Grima was sealed away. Meaning that this was not performed as a Holy Blood pact. It is from the act of taking the blood only after Grima is sealed away that they ended up creating the small diluted bloodline. No Major or Minor blood, but rather just the small trace of fellblood in them. It's only through repeated experiments and breeding that they likely theorized that they needed a stronger blood. 

You mentioned Grima's Truth, which certainly suggests Major and Minor blood. 

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Grima's spirit isn't actually sealed inside anyone. The Heart of Grima is possibly a term that is used to describe one that can carry the soul of Grima. The Future Grima Robin that came back was the perfect vessel, and by absorbing the life energy of the sacrifices, Future Grima awakened the present Grima back. Because Future Grima is still a vessel with a Heart of Grima.

So confused right now. Why does Future Grima (I guess that's who that was) have the same body as MU?

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You mentioned Grima's Truth, which certainly suggests Major and Minor blood. 

Grima's Truth is in fact not tied to bloodlines. Or nothing to suggest it. I mean, it isn't even locked to Validar. In a Double Duel case, Henry actually uses Grima's Truth. But I did say that if it was built to react to fellblood, this is what I mean. It is the Grimleal's way of trying to find the strongest or produce the strongest fellblood. It's their magical blood tester. You know how we once discussed about the case of Minor blood for Arvis and how there seemed to be no physical evidence? Well, here, the Grimleal DID create something to detect it. And I also mentioned that possibly the Grimleal went out to spread descendants for Grima so that there will always been fellblood out there. 

10 minutes ago, Køkø said:

So confused right now. Why does Future Grima (I guess that's who that was) have the same body as MU?

Future Robin succumbed to Grima. He did not resist Grima in the end and ultimately killed Chrom. Grima took over Robin here completely. Grima in Future Past proved that he is perfectly capable of shifting through human and dragon form at will. So Awakening's Grima assumes the form of his human host that he has. 

[Køkø]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima's Truth is in fact not tied to bloodlines. Or nothing to suggest it. I mean, it isn't even locked to Validar. In a Double Duel case, Henry actually uses Grima's Truth. But I did say that if it was built to react to fellblood, this is what I mean. It is the Grimleal's way of trying to find the strongest or produce the strongest fellblood. It's their magical blood tester. You know how we once discussed about the case of Minor blood for Arvis and how there seemed to be no physical evidence? Well, here, the Grimleal DID create something to detect it. And I also mentioned that possibly the Grimleal went out to spread descendants for Grima so that there will always been fellblood out there.  

Okay. Makes sense now. 

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Future Robin succumbed to Grima. He did not resist Grima in the end and ultimately killed Chrom. Grima took over Robin here completely. Grima in Future Past proved that he is perfectly capable of shifting through human and dragon form at will. So Awakening's Grima assumes the form of his human host that he has. 

So he doesn't need one then?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

So he doesn't need one then?

There's a lot of debate, even now with my friend, about whether Grima is dependent on the bloodline and absolutely needs a vessel. I think that even if Grima loses his bloodline, his spirit will still remain tied to the world. But a human vessel is rather the easiest way or the best way to be unsealed and regain his power. If they use the Shield of Seals to unseal him, but have no vessel, Grima is just a spirit that is roaming around, needing to recreate his body to regain his power. If they have a vessel, but no Shield of Seals to unseal him, the vessel would need a lot of power to unseal it.

[Køkø]

Makes sense. Let's hope they confirm something.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Makes sense. Let's hope they confirm something.

Possibly. But one thing I've come to learn and accept from Fire Emblem, Kaga and post Kaga, is that any lores that gets explained only for exposition NEVER gets an actual game story around it. So no Dragon War with Naga, no Scouring, no era of Ashunera and her splitting of two, and finally, no First Exalt story. 

[Køkø]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Possibly. But one thing I've come to learn and accept from Fire Emblem, Kaga and post Kaga, is that any lores that gets explained only for exposition NEVER gets an actual game story around it. So no Dragon War with Naga, no Scouring, no era of Ashunera and her splitting of two, and finally, no First Exalt story. 

Well it's never too late for that, so don't give up just yet.