Likable characters vs well written/interesting characters

[Kazuya]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Going to challenge you there that Elma is any better written than Lin. She continuously and needlessly lies to all her supposed friends and holds an incredible four standard as to what's acceptable for her and for everyone else. Only once, at the very end of the game is she semi-called out on anything and even then it's brushed away immediately. I'd love it if her hypocrisy was an actual acknowledge trait, but she suffers no consequence for her actions and the narrative still treats her like the cool, wise commander that always does what's best for everyone when reality she covers her own ass and treats humans like a bunch of puppies to play with.

So what you are saying is....just tell everyone everything even though that could and would cause mass panic? I doubt any NLA resident would take kindly to anything she has to say, her secrecy is logical. Let's not forget that she is also an agent for the government and that is a government secret, so she could be charged for treason and conspiracy. There are somethings I do think the game should have said a lot earlier like the whole Mims thing, but you can't change the past. Elma has no reason to reveal herself ever, period too. She doesn't need to either, there was never a need for her to reveal her real body, she is supposed to be a secret. 

[Arthur97]

I feel like "writing" too often becomes a foil for people who don't like a game or character. May not always be the case, but it can feel like it.

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think people are generally to quick to call Lucina bland. Lucina's problem is that she's more like the older FE characters that's not only stuck in the more expressive Awakening cast but especially with the wackiest of the bunch. Lucina has a defined personality and some deeper layers but she just doesn't immediately shout all she is from the rooftops like other characters. I can see how that can appear bland when compared to a serial womanizer, a larper and Batman but that doesn't make it so. 

Kind of ironic since so many people who don't like her seem to be older fans. Though, her Brady support has her get kind of animated.

[SoulWeaver]

10 hours ago, Kazuya said:

People always say "she has a back story, she has this and that" but she doesn't. She is nothing more than sex appeal due to the writing in 14, but this is nothing new. You already know what I will say, and I know what you will say in response. 

You know what I'll say, eh? Let's see if my thoughts are unexpected!
To be honest, you're right, but my pride's been wounded by your superior bolded argument so I'm going to pretend I have some secret upper hand and say you're half-right. I'll meet you halfway and say she is nothing more than sex appeal and a mental illness, which unfortunately is still more than some fanservice characters out there get. The fact Xander let himself die knowing Camilla was next in line for the throne also does nothing to help my opinion of him either, thank goodness she abdicated in favor of Leo or who knows how fast Nohr would have gone to heck.
Well? Anything unexpected or did I perform as planned?

2 hours ago, Otts486 said:

agree 100% though while warriors camilla is flanderized to the point of no return I honestly find the creepiness charming and somewhat hilarious especially in her supports with frederick and chrom.

I tried to go at Warriors Camilla with an open mind and willingness to forgive(and Camilla-Caeda really tested me on that), but the Camilla-Sakura Support is just downright wrong. Even if you say the concept of the Support is ok, the execution has her looking like a creepy lesbian child stalker to anyone who doesn't know Sakura's actually legal. Even then, it's still not cool for more reasons than one.

[Ertrick36]

1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

For instance, Atton Rand from Knights of the Old Republic 2 starts out looking like a more cynical and jaded Han Solo (in contrast to how Mission Vao from the previous game is a younger, more idealistic twist on this archetype), but after learning about his backstory and why he has certain habits, he becomes increasingly more interesting, while still not remaining the most likable of characters.

Just about every companion in that game is varying degrees of well-written.

I think for as prickly as he can be, Atton is still fairly likable if only for his sarcastic quips and snide behavior.  If there's anyone who is "unlikable", I'd say it's Kreia - a manipulative old woman who chastises you for doing too many good deeds and looks down on everyone around her.  But at the same time, she is a significant part of what makes KotOR 2 a great game.

1 hour ago, Otts486 said:

also on the first paragraph. It's another reason I've been thinking on this topic a lot recently and I hate to name names but honestly it has a lot to do with blazing knight. I mean he is a good youtuber and all but sometimes his opinions just confuse me. Like he hates severa for being unpleasant and tsundere yet he likes maribelle even though she's unpleasant and is somewhat tsundere. That's not to say I dislike maribelle no I think maribelle's great but ugh. It's really his overrated character list that sort of ignited this fire in me and I could go on all day on how much I hate that video but I digress. Also for whatever reason I almost never find myself disliking unlikable but well written characters because I appreciate that they are well written. It sort of clashes and then sort of becomes indifference. It's weird but whatever

This is why the only people I watch on YouTube are fools who suck at games and don't pretend like they have all the answers.  It's hard to take someone who runs into a sword five times over all that seriously, especially when he/she says to not take his/her opinions seriously.  I get particularly turned off from a YouTube personality if they make definitive lists and their opinions are regarded highly by a large portion of people.  It's also why I hate tier lists.

I think I probably define "likable" a little differently than you do.  What I see as "unlikable" is a character who has unattractive traits such as selfishness.  It isn't necessarily a matter of whether or not I myself actually like the character, but more if that character is likable to the other characters or if they'd be likable if they existed in real life.  But that's just how I look at it.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ah, sorry, should have bolded. I meant this bit.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Sometimes I even think that FE critical FE fans only define "well-written" as "this character isn't a bad guy" because they always seem to criticize those that aren't necessarily good people on the grounds that they're not good people.

 

Had a hunch.

It was a fairly broad generalization.  And as I said, I was mostly referring to criticisms of recent FE's.  I primarily was thinking of criticisms I've seen aimed at Tharja's hexing.

[Armagon]

46 minutes ago, Kazuya said:

So what you are saying is....just tell everyone everything even though that could and would cause mass panic? I doubt any NLA resident would take kindly to anything she has to say, her secrecy is logical. Let's not forget that she is also an agent for the government and that is a government secret, so she could be charged for treason and conspiracy. There are somethings I do think the game should have said a lot earlier like the whole Mims thing, but you can't change the past. Elma has no reason to reveal herself ever, period too. She doesn't need to either, there was never a need for her to reveal her real body, she is supposed to be a secret. 

You know, this does remind me of a common criticism i see in characters that i don't always get: the "they are bad characters because they didn't tell everyone everything" criticism. Sometimes, it's a valid criticism. But other times, i feel that people are too quick to criticize characters for being secretive. If a character is being secretive for the sake of being secretive, then yeah, it's a valid criticism. But if they have a reason for being secretive (such as Elma here), then it's not really a valid criticism imo. And then there's cases where a character is secretive but there isn't a logical reason for it, it's just a flaw the character has, which doesn't automatically make them a bad character.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Kazuya said:

So what you are saying is....just tell everyone everything even though that could and would cause mass panic? I doubt any NLA resident would take kindly to anything she has to say, her secrecy is logical. Let's not forget that she is also an agent for the government and that is a government secret, so she could be charged for treason and conspiracy. There are somethings I do think the game should have said a lot earlier like the whole Mims thing, but you can't change the past. Elma has no reason to reveal herself ever, period too. She doesn't need to either, there was never a need for her to reveal her real body, she is supposed to be a secret. 

Yes. Tell everyone everything. Because there's literally no advantage to keeping them in the dark. There's no reason to believe it would cause mass panic, it's uncomfortable news but it doesn't actually change he the circumstances of how much danger their in. The people will find out eventually, which is just going to make the government look super untrustworthy. And even taking mass panic to be a thing, the high ranking Blade Personal (ie the people Elma considers her friends) at the very least should have been briefed before reaching the lifehold core. What if Doug got affected by the "mass panic" and decided to go all Lau on Elma when they were the life hold core itself and he was capable of dealing the most damage possible. Not briefing people about what they're doing before a mission when they will undoubtedly be told the truth in the field of battle is just plain idiotic.

And even ignoring all that, absolutely nothing is done with the fact that Elma has been deceiving the entire cast throughout the entire game. She doesn't struggle with being forced to do it, none of the other characters change their perception of her (and the narrative doesn't trying and change the  players perception of her) and doesn't advance the plot in any meaningful way. She never apologises and not  a single character even acknowledges the fact that the she lied. They're just mildly peeved about the existential implications (which she happily reassures people not to worry about, all the while side stepping the issue completely by preserving her own body). That, I call poor writing.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Jotari

[Kazuya]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes. Tell everyone everything. Because there's literally no advantage to keeping them in the dark. There's no reason to believe it would cause mass panic, it's uncomfortable news but it doesn't actually change he the circumstances of how much danger their in. The people will find out eventually, which is just going to make the government look super untrustworthy. And even taking mass panic to be a thing, the high ranking Blade Personal (ie the people Elma considers her friends) at the very least should have been briefed before reaching the lifehold core. What if Doug got affected by the "mass panic" and decided to go all Lau on Elma when they were the life hold core itself and he was capable of dealing the most damage possible. Not briefing people about what they're doing before a mission when they will undoubtedly be told the truth in the field of battle is just plain idiotic.

And even ignoring all that, absolutely nothing is done with the fact that Elma has been deceiving the entire cast throughout the entire game. She doesn't struggle with being forced to do it, none of the other characters change their perception of her (and the narrative doesn't trying and change the  players perception of her) and doesn't advance the plot in any meaningful way. She never apologises and not  a single character even acknowledges the fact that the she lied. They're just mildly peeved about the existential implications (which she happily reassures people not to worry about, all the while side stepping the issue completely by preserving her own body). That, I call poor writing.

There is no reason to tell everyone anything though, there just isn't. Sure maybe they would know, but their goal would still be the same. If people knew everything though, I doubt most BLADEs would be there, most would have left. That isn't something the government can risk, they need every single section and every single mim. Sure, we found out most of the facts but only when the time was right, if it was any sooner, why should we stay with BLADE, but since the Ganglion are still a threat and would kill all the stragglers. In any solution, knowing the truth would have been detrimental to their whole reason for being on Mira. None of that would make sense, literally none. There is 0 reason to tell anyone anything 

[Jotari]

Just now, Kazuya said:

There is no reason to tell everyone anything though, there just isn't. Sure maybe they would know, but their goal would still be the same. If people knew everything though, I doubt most BLADEs would be there, most would have left. That isn't something the government can risk, they need every single section and every single mim. Sure, we found out most of the facts but only when the time was right, if it was any sooner, why should we stay with BLADE, but since the Ganglion are still a threat and would kill all the stragglers. In any solution, knowing the truth would have been detrimental to their whole reason for being on Mira. None of that would make sense, literally none. There is 0 reason to tell anyone anything 

You say there's zero reason to tell everyone the truth, I say there's zero reason to lie to everyone and a bunch of pragmatic reasons to tell them (as I've already listed). But that's a moot point. I don't care if Elma is justified or not. What I care about is how the story treats her deception. Which it doesn't. As I said, nobody gets upset, nobody even draws attention to the fact that everything they've been fighting for is a fabrication, Elma never apologises to her aforementioned friends for manipulating them (which she is absolutely doing if you think half of blade would have quit if they knew the truth), nobody has any significant reaction at all. If Elma had told them the truth before the assault, or three missions earlier or at the very start of the game, then nothing would have changed. Elma keeping the truth from everyone doesn't develop the plot or characters in any way. You say it would cause wide spread panic and dismantle the command structure if she told them all the truth, but none of that happens when she finally does tell the truth. Nobody has any misgivings about Elma's credibility (or the government) after she's lied to them about their mission statement and even her very identity. The single reason the true explanation was left for the end of the game was just so there could be some kind of revelation in the final chapter. Narratively it doesn't serve any other purpose.

[Water Mage]

On 28/02/2018 at 5:17 PM, Jotari said:

You say there's zero reason to tell everyone the truth, I say there's zero reason to lie to everyone and a bunch of pragmatic reasons to tell them (as I've already listed). But that's a moot point. I don't care if Elma is justified or not. What I care about is how the story treats her deception. Which it doesn't. As I said, nobody gets upset, nobody even draws attention to the fact that everything they've been fighting for is a fabrication, Elma never apologises to her aforementioned friends for manipulating them (which she is absolutely doing if you think half of blade would have quit if they knew the truth), nobody has any significant reaction at all. If Elma had told them the truth before the assault, or three missions earlier or at the very start of the game, then nothing would have changed. Elma keeping the truth from everyone doesn't develop the plot or characters in any way. You say it would cause wide spread panic and dismantle the command structure if she told them all the truth, but none of that happens when she finally does tell the truth. Nobody has any misgivings about Elma's credibility (or the government) after she's lied to them about their mission statement and even her very identity. The single reason the true explanation was left for the end of the game was just so there could be some kind of revelation in the final chapter. Narratively it doesn't serve any other purpose.

While I do agree that she should have apologized, her secrecy is justified by one important fact. She’s an alien, and as it is shown, not everyone in NLA likes aliens. And considering Elma wants to keep herself as neutral as possible, the guise of a human is the most justified. We also don’t how people would react, if panic happens it could be disastrous, because considering the situation they are in, cooperation is the most important fact for survival in Mira.

[Christactics]

In my opinion, usually well-liked characters are well-written ones.

[Ottservia]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:04 PM, Ertrick36 said:

I think I probably define "likable" a little differently than you do.  What I see as "unlikable" is a character who has unattractive traits such as selfishness.  It isn't necessarily a matter of whether or not I myself actually like the character, but more if that character is likable to the other characters or if they'd be likable if they existed in real life.  But that's just how I look at it.

you know that's an interesting way to think about it. I can't say that I have a set definition on what a "likable" character is but now that mention it I probably should define my "words" better so to speak. It also got me thinking on my opinion on peri cause as it stands she is a poorly written character for the story she's in but I feel she's a good stand alone character. Idk my opinion on peri is fairly mixed. I will also agree on your definition on "unlikable" though.

1 hour ago, Christactics said:

In my opinion, usually well-liked characters are well-written ones.

and I would mostly agree with that statement but there are examples of poorly written characters who are well liked. I will cite sumia again as an example or for a more recent example pretty much echoes's entire cast. The reason being that they're bland and one dimensional and not much else to them. There are exceptions to this but that's generally the case. that's not to say I dislike those characters but they're pretty bland.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, Christactics said:

In my opinion, usually well-liked characters are well-written ones.

Makalov is well-written but he has very little fans. Peri is the opposite yet she has a lot more fans. 

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Water Mage said:

While I do agree that she should have apologized, her secrecy is justified by one important fact. She’s an alien, and as it is shown, not everyone in NLA likes aliens. And considering Elma wants to keep herself as neutral as possible, the guise of a human is the most justified. We also don’t how people would react, if panic happens it could be disastrous, because considering the situation they are in, cooperation is the most important fact for survival in Mira.

If that was part of the story I wouldn't have any problems with it. But it's not part of the story. Elma being an alien affects none of the characters opinion of her and nothing of the plot changes as a result of her alien indentity.At best it just serves some minor backstory exposition (at the very end of the game where the backstory should be long since explained) as to how the humans got where they are.

[bottlegnomes]

Going to be frank, I didn't really read the topic, skimmed a little, but one thing I'd like to add is that there's a difference between well-written and unconventional characters and stories.

Anyway, this might be pendantry on my part but there's not really such a thing as objectively well-written since, as with just about anything purely man-made, what makes something good is based on what you value. There are general rules, but those are based more on what people want rather than any hard principles.

There can also be elements of a character that are well done, but others that aren't so much. Alm is a good example of this. He's very humanized and has a defined personality, plus his interactions with other characters are well-done and in character. He has enough quirks to make him unique, like all his quips while inspecting things. All that said, he is a bit overly perfect in how his decisions are always right and his plans always work out, but I love him all the same because he's such a dweeb.

Actually, you know, Echoes story is a good example of how what you see affects your perception of quality. A lot of people hate that Alm's a royal when one of the points of the story is that birth doesn't matter since they think it undercuts the moral. I'm of the opposite opinion. I like it and think Alm being a commoner would've been worse for it. That way, it's saying that commoners are capable of doing the same thing as nobles. The way it is, it's saying that Alm is Alm, noble or not. He was the same when he thought he was a village bumpkin as when he became king. Berkut highlights this: The difference between the two isn't birthright; it's how they were raised. I don't think those people are idiots for thinking that; it's just how we interpret things.

Edited March 2, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Troykv]

On 2/3/2018 at 2:14 PM, Icelerate said:

Makalov is well-written but he has very little fans. Peri is the opposite yet she has a lot more fans. 

Makalov makes everything right to be ironically a unliked character (unless you're into this kind of writing and people for fun or something XD)

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

Makalov makes everything right to be ironically a unliked character (unless you're into this kind of writing and people for fun or something XD)

I actually like Makalov as a character. The way he behaves is lol worthy as well as the reactions people have. Also having a lazy coward in the army is refreshing since going to war is risky and hard work so I'd expect more people like him. 

[Opana]

I think well written characters have a meaningful depth, whereas likable characters are more defined by their design and/or prominence of a trait or two they have. Take Soren and Gonzales for example, Soren has a lot of building upon his character while essentially being a love it or hate it character early on, while Gonzales has much less to him with a focus more on his appearance/intelligence and simultaneously hitting a likable archetype or two in the process. I like both characters, although I happen to love Soren's type of character on top of his added depth.

[Vince777]

Some characters being well-written may contribute much to my hatred for them. 

I played Gaiden but obviously could not much dislike Forsyth until only after the remake in which I found him to be a puppet to undeserving masters. I can only appreciate him through the contrast that exists between his character and Python, who is one of my favourite characters.



 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Vince777

[Interdimensional Observer]

Nobody has brought up Shinon?

Shinon seems perfect here. He is arguably quite well-written, I think so. Rather nuanced, his Rolf, Janaff, and Gatrie supports all having good things about them, and his other bits of dialogue are good too. His bigotry is distinct from all the goodie good Laguz lovers your army is made of. One bigot in the playable cast helps get across the point the world has them. He doesn't worship the main character either- he just continually bashes them.

But nobody could deny Shinon has an unlikable personality, he has Provoke for a reason. 

 

Naesala is similar- he sells a friend to a wretched sack of lard for no reason other than profit. He fights against said friend for a time working for Daein, just for profit. In PoR at least Naesala is unlikable.

 

And yet, Shinon and Naesala aren't real, so I'm willing to excuse their ugliness. In reality, I want two million goodie goods as white as snow, but in a video game, throw me some grey characters. Their questionable or objectionable behavior isn't hurting anyone.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nobody has brought up Shinon?

Shinon seems perfect here. He is arguably quite well-written, I think so. Rather nuanced, his Rolf, Janaff, and Gatrie supports all having good things about them, and his other bits of dialogue are good too. His bigotry is distinct from all the goodie good Laguz lovers your army is made of. One bigot in the playable cast helps get across the point the world has them. He doesn't worship the main character either- he just continually bashes them.

But nobody could deny Shinon has an unlikable personality, he has Provoke for a reason. 

 

Naesala is similar- he sells a friend to a wretched sack of lard for no reason other than profit. He fights against said friend for a time working for Daein, just for profit. In PoR at least Naesala is unlikable.

 

And yet, Shinon and Naesala aren't real, so I'm willing to excuse their ugliness. In reality, I want two million goodie goods as white as snow, but in a video game, throw me some grey characters. Their questionable or objectionable behavior isn't hurting anyone.

I brought him up 

On 28/02/2018 at 12:00 PM, Jotari said:

I'm not so sure about that. I think the most unabashedly obnoxious playable character in the series is Shinon, who starts out as a dick and remains a dick throughout, even in the sequel. He has some per the dog moments with Rolf but all in all is still an unrepentant racist jerk. Yet people don't hate him. I mean...I don't see anyone loving him either, I expect most people are pretty ambivalent towards him. But if unlikeable character = character worth complaining about, then I reckon I would have seen some hate thrown his way by now. Of course he doesn't come from the modern games that get a lot more flak for their writing (and are also just more widely played), so maybe that's the reason.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I brought him up 

Whoops, must have skimmed over things too fast.

I do think not being in a widely played game makes Shinon less of an issue. If PoR gained mass availability, he might be even more unlikable than the other abrasive archer Takumi. Although not quite as much I'd think since Shinon has no plot dialogue after Chapter 7 unlike Takumi, whom Fates gives plenty of limelight to and who Fates tries to make off as being a good person more heavily than Shinon. 

Soren is closer to Takumi when you consider their story relevance, although trade Takumi's protagonist bashing for Soren's strategic mind. He's going to grow as a love-hate character once Tellius is more available. More love and more hate- the two should cancel each other out. Also, add potential comparisons to Tharja/Camilla/Faye because of Soren's Ike dependency, which I don't find to be appropriate comparisons, and I'm not saying Soren's Ike dependency is healthy, but it will happen.