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The Most Complex/Convoluted Plan in the Series

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There are some pretty crazy plans in the Fire Emblem series. From Manfroy's manipulating countries, to Azura's plan for Garon to sit on a throne. Which one do you think has the highest change of  failing? For me is Manfroy, his plan rely heavily on the writing itself favoring him and the amount of cutscene powers to accomplished otherwise difficult feats. 

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Rudolf's plan has a pretty big chance of failing. What if Alm trips and kicks the bucket? It all depended on Alm not dying but he could've been easily killed at any point.

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Sephiran's plan to bring down Ashera's Judgment takes it by a pretty wide margin, tbh, if we're just talking convoluted bullshitery. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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36 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

 Rudolph’s plot is pretty convoluted.

Ehhhhh.

It basically just boiled down to "Our god has gone mental and needs to die. This kid is the only one that can kill him. He needs to be raised and trained in the middle of nowhere and no one can know he's special until he's ready to become the godslayer. I'll defeat Duma's sister-god and set everything in motion when the time is right."

...its not like he was manipulating decades worth of geopolitical events--from intrastate power struggles to wars and alliances between foreign kingdoms to full blown civil war in his own empire with hostile foreign kingdoms backing each side... 

Sephiran's plan was nuts.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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30 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Ehhhhh.

It basically just boiled down to "Our god has gone mental and needs to die. This kid is the only one that can kill him. He needs to be raised and trained in the middle of nowhere and no one can know he's special until he's ready to become the godslayer. I'll defeat Duma's sister-god and set everything in motion when the time is right."

...its not like he was manipulating decades worth of geopolitical events--from intrastate power struggles to wars and alliances between foreign kingdoms to full blown civil war in his own empire with hostile foreign kingdoms backing each side... 

Sephiran's plan was nuts.  

To be fair, though, Sephiran as Chancellor of Begnion had a fair bit of influence over international relations. Rudolph, meanwhile, had no control whatsoever over whether or not Alm gets cancer or something. Although, we never actually see Sephiran use his position as Chancellor to further his plans...

Come to think of it, RD would have made so much more sense if Sephiran was leading the Senate and had couped Sanaki and we knew this from day one; then his motives could still be revealed as a twist but his plan would be so much more likely to succeed.

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29 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Sephiran's takes the cake. As literally his requires so much luck that it's unbelievably stupid.

How? It's clear that Begnion has no love for the Laguz, so I'd think that a war between the two that engulfs the entirety of Tellius would be almost inevitable.

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I guess being as long-lived as he was, Sephiran had an attitude of It doesn't matter how long it takes. If I keep poking them eventually they will all start killing each other, because it is in their nature.

Maybe it was all just a test. Maybe Sephiran needed to confirm that everyone really would go down the war-path with him pulling only the most subtle of manipulations; that was the only way he could know for sure that the world truly deserved to end and go back to a blank slate, for the Goddess to create something better.


...but if he had already decided that he was going do bring about The Judgment immediately after the Serenes Massacre. And from that moment on he was just trying to bring about that outcome as swiftly and expeditiously as possible.

FFS--He could have just used his position as Senate Leader and trusted whisperere to the child apostle to pull a Zephiel, and immediately launch a Begnionese invasion of the rest of the continent.

Everything else was superfluous.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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4 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

How? It's clear that Begnion has no love for the Laguz, so I'd think that a war between the two that engulfs the entirety of Tellius would be almost inevitable.

Because this requires the entire continent needing to be in on the war. If such is a case, then he *doesn't* need to do anything. There is no plan. It's convoluted to go through all of what he did to achieve that result if it's almost inevitable. 

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3 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Because this requires the entire continent needing to be in on the war. If such is a case, then he *doesn't* need to do anything. There is no plan. It's convoluted to go through all of what he did to achieve that result if it's almost inevitable. 

Considering the situation of the actual continent, a war that involves the entire continent is too unlikely, but some wide-eyed idealists can get in the way. He had to make plans to make sure those idealists, such as Ike and Sanaki, wouldn’t get in the way of war that spans the continent.

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24 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

How? It's clear that Begnion has no love for the Laguz, so I'd think that a war between the two that engulfs the entirety of Tellius would be almost inevitable.

That's true, but at the same time, there's Goldoa, which went out of its way to stay out of war. Ashnard tried to provoke Dheginsea into the Mad King's War by drugging the platoon of dragons that came for Almedha, and Rajaion as well, but his defeat and death stopped the war before that could happen. Even in Radiant Dawn, the only reason why Sephiran's plan succeeded was because Kurthnaga insisted on fighting for the Daein army.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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The entire continent is at war condition is fulfilled if Begnion decides that Begnion alone follows the Word of the Goddess, every other nation is run by filthy heretics, and heretics must be purged with sword and fire. 

Sephiran raised Sanaki from the time she was a baby--it would have been the simplest thing to indoctrinate her from infancy into the idea of a glorious great crusade; Begnion spreading the light of true faith to all the heathen nations of the world.

With such an empress on the throne + Sephiran running the Senate, he could have just started the continent-spanning war directly instead of trying to game Daein and Crimea and the Laguz Kings.

...instead he raised Sanaki to be the exact opposite of what he needed her to be, to bring about his war by the swiftest and surest means...

And in the end he seemed...proud that she turned out the way she did??? Kind and just and full of hope for the world he was trying to destroy; like he wouldn't have wanted her to turn out any other way?

He was a conflicted character. One of the reasons why he was such a great villain, and probably the reason why his scheme was so convoluted. He wasn't mentally or morally prepared to commit to it in the most direct and brutal way he could have committed to it. 


 
   

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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i'd agree that it's manfroy's plot, manipulating countries behind the scenes for years and getting two specific people together to have a child with lopto holy blood to revive a dark god is a pretty big scheme and he did it for so many years

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55 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

The entire continent is at war condition is fulfilled if Begnion decides that Begnion alone follows the Word of the Goddess, every other nation is run by filthy heretics, and heretics must be purged with sword and fire. 

Sephiran raised Sanaki from the time she was a baby--it would have been the simplest thing to indoctrinate her from infancy into the idea of a glorious great crusade; Begnion spreading the light of true faith to all the heathen nations of the world.

With such an empress on the throne + Sephiran running the Senate, he could have just started the continent-spanning war directly instead of trying to game Daein and Crimea and the Laguz Kings.

...instead he raised Sanaki to be the exact opposite of what he needed her to be, to bring about his war by the swiftest and surest means...

And in the end he seemed...proud that she turned out the way she did??? Kind and just and full of hope for the world he was trying to destroy; like he wouldn't have wanted her to turn out any other way?

He was a conflicted character. One of the reasons why he was such a great villain, and probably the reason why his scheme was so convoluted. He wasn't mentally or morally prepared to commit to it in the most direct and brutal way he could have committed to it. 


 
   

 

This. And this is pretty much why I say his plan wins as the dumbest way to go about accomplishing that. 

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I haven't played the FE4&5 but I'd say Rudolf's plan. For it to work, he needed Alm to survive with only Mycen protecting him, for him to be accepted as the leader of Zofia's military (which normally wouldn't accept a commoner), for Zofia (the country of hedonistic layabouts) to somehow win the war despite a civil war, monster attacks, famine and all against a nation that is known for their military strength, and THEN have the strength to take down Duma himself. There is also the matter of Celica's role in stopping Duma.

Now, it's true that Alm and Celica were prophesied to end the age of gods in Valentia, but if the prophesy was absolute, why did Rudolf need to do anything to ensure it succeeded?

 

Dishonorable mention goes to Azura's throne ploy that counts on:
1. Garon actually going to Hoshido.
2. Garon actually sitting on the throne.
3. The throne working as she believes it will (I don't imagine "dispelling glamors on slime monsters" is a tested ability of the throne)
4. The Nohr sibs actually opposing Garon after the reveal. (They only do because Garon attacks them for some reason)
Azura doesn't even get as far as planning how to kill Anankos.

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Yep, Roduolf's plan is one of the biggest problems with Shadows of Valentia and Gaiden. It makes no sense.

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6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I haven't played the FE4&5 but I'd say Rudolf's plan. For it to work, he needed Alm to survive with only Mycen protecting him, for him to be accepted as the leader of Zofia's military (which normally wouldn't accept a commoner), for Zofia (the country of hedonistic layabouts) to somehow win the war despite a civil war, monster attacks, famine and all against a nation that is known for their military strength, and THEN have the strength to take down Duma himself. There is also the matter of Celica's role in stopping Duma.

Now, it's true that Alm and Celica were prophesied to end the age of gods in Valentia, but if the prophesy was absolute, why did Rudolf need to do anything to ensure it succeeded?

 

Dishonorable mention goes to Azura's throne ploy that counts on:
1. Garon actually going to Hoshido.
2. Garon actually sitting on the throne.
3. The throne working as she believes it will (I don't imagine "dispelling glamors on slime monsters" is a tested ability of the throne)
4. The Nohr sibs actually opposing Garon after the reveal. (They only do because Garon attacks them for some reason)
Azura doesn't even get as far as planning how to kill Anankos.

Welp, I've got basically nothing to add to this thread, apparently.

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People don't seem to get that if Rudolf's plan fails, then he's the sort of person to just go "Well, I guess we deserve to die by rampaging mad dragon."

Rudolf's plan is fuckin great. It's a last ditch attempt to save Valentia. 

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I think some people forget that Rudolfs plan was two-fold:

It had the larger goal of uniting the continent through war, and potentially eliminating or at least downplaying the flaws of the each nation. I.E. If Rigel won, they would need compassion in order to successfully rule over Zofia. If Zofia won, they would have proven Rigels strength, but they would need to learn diligence and discipline in order to keep the Rigelians from rebelling. He unites the continent, and forces both sides to give up their flaws in order to remain united.

On that note, it's entirely possible that Rudolf tried to enact this plan earlier by invading Zofia when the King refused to give Rigel food during the famine, as then he had an excuse to attack Zofia without backlash and with full support of the Rigelian populace. However, he was forced to stop the invasion when the king of Zofia offered them gold to end the war, as it would be politically unwise to refuse such an offer, and his soldiers were fighting a war of resources, not conquest. When Desaix enacted his Coup d'état, he requested Rigels aid, which provided the perfect opportunity to get Rigel back into a war. 

 

It also had the smaller, riskier, but more rewarding plan featuring Alm. With the prophecy, it's entirely possible that Rudolf wouldn't put stock in such things normally, but knew that the more fanatical members of the Duma Faithful would, and some of them would also be willing to kill a child. He also saw nothing to lose, and everything to gain from believing it, and entrusted Alm with Mycen, both for the childs safety and so that Alm would learn values from both continents.

If Alm survived the war, regardless of whether or not he even joined, or was just a normal soldier instead of the Deliverance's leader, then Mycen would spill the beans on his ability to wield Falchion, and his purpose to slay the Duma. If Alm died, then either A. Duma survives, and delves deeper into madness, but considering he's mostly locked away in his tower, it's possible that the populace just deals with his shenanigans until another dragon/god slaying weapon/hero shows up, or B. Rudolf takes the Falchion and kills Duma himself (he's show wielding it earlier in the story), betraying his country in the eyes of the people, and accepting the consequences (or allowing himself to be killed after killing Duma, wiping himself out of the picture then and there). Rudolf would keep Berkut out of of the loop so the latter wouldn't be accused of conspiracy, and the crown would be passed onto his nephew.

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23 hours ago, RJWalker said:

People don't seem to get that if Rudolf's plan fails, then he's the sort of person to just go "Well, I guess we deserve to die by rampaging mad dragon."

Rudolf's plan is fuckin great. It's a last ditch attempt to save Valentia. 

This. It's a weird plan, but it's not convoluted in the least. The plan literally hinges on "don't die Alm." That's hardly convoluted. He planted the seeds to have Alm grow up as a farm hand, and Mycen to ensure that Alm had the skills to be above and beyond a standard person. That's not convoluted at all. It worked exactly as he planed. 

Azura's aren't really convoluted in my eyes, just really stupid and/or naive. To the point that I'd say her character is horrible IMO. But...

Sephiran gets the cake, because he goes way out of his way to ensure that his plan is needlessly more difficult than it has any right to be. Raising people to be counterproductive to his own plans because....? 

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I'm not sure Sephiran really even has a plan after Path of Radiance didn't work out. Most of Radiant Dawn seems to happen naturally. I even made a thread addressing the fact.

 

Not convoluted, but Azura's plan certainly has the highest chance if failing, as someone helpfully detailed above.

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Robin and Basilio duping the Grimleal. This one also hinged on "Don't die, Basilio" but also required keeping Chrom out of the loop (not easy when you are literally glued to him) and Basilio actually being able to find the Lifesphere (At least I think it was the Lifesphere). Lastly, how in the hell did Robin take out the other spheres if Chrom was glued and taped to the Fire Emblem?

Edited by Hylian Air Force
stupid machine

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