Did overambition kill this game?

[Jingle Jangle]

8 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Interesting to see The Last Jedi get brought up. The Last Jedi's reception is pretty darn positive outside of a small but very loud minority of the fanbase - see its A ranking on CinemaScore. (Or, to bring in personal anecdote: it's a well-loved movie by everyone I've talked to IRL, while I've certainly run into some venom on the internet.) There are probably some parallels to Fates but it's hard to say for sure, because if nothing else there's no CinemaScore-like polling done of game opinions to my knowledge. (There are self-selecting surveys like Metacritic user scores of course, but those are notoriously unreliable even before you take into the fact that some people will try to deliberately manipulate these scores.)

That's an interesting comparison, the reason a portion of fans disliked The Last Jedi (I need to rewatch the film again to gather my thoughts) was because I took fans expectations out the window. Those fans were speculating for years about Snoke, Rey's family, Kylo Ren's past and were upset over some of the other plot lines in the film (Hodo, the casino planet etc ).. Majority of those complains comes from the different director and his vision for the sequel,; I guess there wasn't agreement over the direction of the,film with the previous director. Which makes the 9th film difficult to please everyone.

So comparing Fates to The Last Jedi has some merit. Both are in the middle of series(3ds games, current trilogy), the majority of complains comes from the direction as well as plot details,  and both have been successful if shadow by controversy.  

[Guest Dreamyboi]

I wouldn't say over-ambition killed the "game" per se, more like killed it's potential. Mainly in the writing department, THE MOST criticized part of the game.

On 3/7/2018 at 12:52 PM, Shoblongoo said:

...yeah that's what I've heard from industry insiders...

After the success of Awakening--they had the talent and the resources to make the game of the scope and grandiosity they were aiming for.

The problem was that you had half a design team looking to make a traditional fire emblem game with emphasis on really perfecting the classical elements of gameplay and worldbuilding and storytelling; taking everything that had always made fire emblem great, and elevating it now that they finally had an A-list budget.

Then you had half the design team that wanted to aggressively tap into the broader otaku-culture market; they were pushing the shipping angle and the camilla-esque character and concept designs and a "story" that was less classical fire emblem--more harem dating sim in an RPG adventure/fantasy setting.

...and there was never a meeting of the minds...

They never all got together and said "this is the game we want to make."

They were working at cross-purposes and undercutting rather than building upon eachothers ideas throughout the whole development process. 

And the result was an incomplete, confused mess of a game. 

If they had just had better direction from the top and everyone working on the same page--I think they absolutely could have hit the mark without scaling back the ambition. And I think they would have had hands-down the best game in the series. 

Missed Opportunity, is how I would sum up what they did with Fates. Not "overambition." 

While all this is a big contributor I think what also fucked it over was a lack of focus plot-wise too. If the game simply built on the world the game was taking place in instead of having other world shenanigans and a HIDDENTRUEENEMYREALFINALBOSSHAPPYGOLDENENDINGROUTE that undermined the whole conflict going on in the plot. Without Revelation and Anankos and Valla and all that other bullshit the plot could have been much better really.

but yeah, I'm mainly agreeing with what @Shoblongoo here said, if the design team agreed on what to do the end product would have been better. Not that I think it's a TOTALLY bad game or anything, I'm not trying to be that "waifus and weebs r killing teh franchise" guy. I DO however think Fire Emblem is better off without whatever team wanted to double down on the otaku stuff. Opinions, we all got 'em :P

[Thane]

Fates didn't die, nor did it fail. It's likely that it sold the most copies out of any main series installment to date. It still enjoys quite a bit of popularity, even though you wouldn't expect it if you based your impression on dedicated Fire Emblem sites.

That being said, there is little doubt that Fates' writing will go down in the franchise's history as some of the worst the series has to offer. While I think overambition played a part in that, there are so many other factors at work. They hired a busy outsider who wrote far more than he was asked to, they had to split up their teams, and perhaps most importantly, they somehow had to fit Revelation into all of this, which made writing Birthright and Conquest even more difficult than it already was. From everything we've heard about the development, it sounds like a perfect storm, with a long series of bad calls that ensured it would never live up to its full potential.

[Ae†her]

Fates didn't die, not at all in fact. There are still lots of players, of course not even remotely as many as there were at first, and for a while after that, but it's no thatt bad. I managed to get 500 visits somehow on a new save file even though I never even shared my My Castle Add. on any website or anything like that. Now, I probably will never be able to get the Visitation Seal or the Battle Seal (at least now without help, lads Address: 15436-38058-98262-60897), but if there can be someone like me who's favorite game is Awakening and refuses to replay it more than the two times he has played it, can still be so addicted to Fates after a year of purchasing it, well then that goes to show they did a really great job with the gameplay, and made it very replayable. The story is off-putting sure, and I feel it may a big reason why this game isn't as easily enjoyable more than once (story is a huge part that's hard to skip in playthroughs), but the gameplay makes up for it, and that's one of Fates' strengths. 

[Sånıc Bÿm]

On 3/10/2018 at 7:29 AM, YouSquiddinMe said:

You're projecting your negative opinion of Fates onto the entire fanbase of Fire Emblem. Quit that.

You're projecting a strawman onto me. Quit that.

If I really hated Fates that much, why in the name of Naga, Anankos and Mila would I have Sakura's Forest as my forum theme?

[eclipse]

32 minutes ago, Sånıc Bÿm said:

You're projecting a strawman onto me. Quit that.

If I really hated Fates that much, why in the name of Naga, Anankos and Mila would I have Sakura's Forest as my forum theme?

Because everyone else can see which forum skin you use, right?

Now rather than brush the argument off, why not address the points?

[Etrurian emperor]

Saying Fates failed obviously is a bit hyperbolic but I wouldn't really dismiss the sentiment just because the game sold well. 

The game had the intention to bridge the gap between older fans and newer ones and in that they undeniably failed. If anything the divide became worse.

The story was also a complete failiure and is wildly reviled. It must have some fans but the general opinion is either that its terrible or at least a lot of wasted potential. And I doubt the writers set out to deliver a subpar story.

Fates also is far more contentious then Awakening ever was. 

[Ottservia]

On 3/10/2018 at 12:52 PM, Jingle Jangle said:

Even though the flaws of Fates can be found in other game in the series. 

you know this is a problem I have with the fates bashing in general. especially in regards to characters. Now I'm not going to deny that fates has it's flaws but I hate it when people call out fates for things the older titles have done. Now I'll probably elaborate on this point on a later date cause time constraints but those are my general thoughts

[Thane]

1 hour ago, Otts486 said:

you know this is a problem I have with the fates bashing in general. especially in regards to characters. Now I'm not going to deny that fates has it's flaws but I hate it when people call out fates for things the older titles have done. Now I'll probably elaborate on this point on a later date cause time constraints but those are my general thoughts

No one is calling other entries in the series perfect. However, no previous game completely failed to deliver on every single aspect in terms of the writing as Fates did, hence the criticism. 

People still talk quite a lot about other entries's shortcomings; if you go to the Echoes subforum right now you'll see a several people discussing its narrative flaws and how to fix the plot.

[Sånıc Bÿm]

20 hours ago, eclipse said:

Because everyone else can see which forum skin you use, right?

Now rather than brush the argument off, why not address the points?

What I meant when I said that the fan reception was more bittersweet was that Fates and The Last Jedi were polarizing and divisive titles among (hardcore) fans.

Admittedly, that's what I should've just said from the very beginning, instead of caving into the temptation to use more flowery language.

[Shoblongoo]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:06 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

Saying Fates failed obviously is a bit hyperbolic but I wouldn't really dismiss the sentiment just because the game sold well. 

The game had the intention to bridge the gap between older fans and newer ones and in that they undeniably failed. If anything the divide became worse.

The story was also a complete failiure and is wildly reviled. It must have some fans but the general opinion is either that its terrible or at least a lot of wasted potential. And I doubt the writers set out to deliver a subpar story.

Fates also is far more contentious then Awakening ever was. 

...that's really the crux of it for me...

Raw sales doesn't speak to the quality of the game or whether it succeeded or failed at what it set out to do.

It sold as high as it did because it came after Awakening--the best selling game in the series--and it had the returning playerbase of awakening to market itself to. Which previous games didn't.

 

[Jotari]

Was Fates really more contentious than Awakening? I recall a lot of hate going towards Awakening back in the day. It was so bad, even though I agreed with half the crisitisms, I felt I needed to defend the game just to be a devils advocate. Course it's possible that I just cared more about such things back then.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Was Fates really more contentious than Awakening? I recall a lot of hate going towards Awakening back in the day. It was so bad, even though I agreed with half the crisitisms, I felt I needed to defend the game just to be a devils advocate. Course it's possible that I just cared more about such things back then.

Yeah, I have to second this. I don't even love Awakening but I found some of the comments it got (and still gets in some places... heck you can see some of it on the SF main site comments thread on occasion) enough to get me really angry in the game's defence. Both are obviously very contentious.

 

On 3/14/2018 at 6:48 AM, Thane said:

No one is calling other entries in the series perfect. However, no previous game completely failed to deliver on every single aspect in terms of the writing as Fates did, hence the criticism. 

This statement strikes me as more than a little hyperbolic. A lot of people would say that Fates has quite a number of good characters (heck, I'm pretty sure you've praised quite a few yourself, and you're pretty much SF's #1 Fates story critic!). If CYL and other polls are any indication, liking Fates' cast (which is certainly an aspect of its writing) is actually quite a popular opinion.

I'd argue that Shadow Dragon failed more at delivering on any writing-related aspect, which is a big part of why its reception was so tepid (since its gameplay, while not the series' best, is still fine). Its main accomplishment is that its writing doesn't do as much as Fates to anger some of its players (or, if you prefer, it doesn't do much that's overtly wrong), but I don't consider that to be much of an accomplishment.

[Icelerate]

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, I have to second this. I don't even love Awakening but I found some of the comments it got (and still gets in some places... heck you can see some of it on the SF main site comments thread on occasion) enough to get me really angry in the game's defence. Both are obviously very contentious.

TBH don't most FE games get a lot of hate when it is released? Radiant Dawn was the same way. 

[GoldPaladin]

 

Fates is something of a mixed bag. Having not played Revelation, I can say that I generally enjoyed the gameplay of Birthright and Conquest but not enough to want to buy the third game. I didn't like either route's story, but Birthright was at least bearable and not constantly warranting facepalms. The story was my biggest issue, though it didn't exactly kill the entire experience for me. It greatly disappointed me, but it wasn't enough to erase the good stuff. 

 

I really wish they had just released this as one single game instead of making you buy all 3 paths (if you were unlucky and couldn't ever get your hands on the special edition when it first hit preorder). 

 

Conquest was the better game IMO, but Birthright was still a lot of fun at times in the same vein as Awakening, and it serves as a good bridge for players who aren't as experienced with the older Fire Emblem games and that style of play. In some ways, I actually enjoyed Birthright more because the story was at least bearable in some ways. Conquest had the better maps and much better gameplay, but the worst story and the absolute worst version of Corrin. At least in Birthright, Corrin is tolerable to a degree. 

 

What really hurt Fates for me was the overall story and writing in general. I really wish the Avatar/My Unit mechanic was abandoned for these games, cause all it serves for is a self-insert Mary Sue through Corrin. As bad as Robin was at this in the story, Corrin made me appreciate Robin a bit more in Awakening. I think if you were to take the My Unit completely out of the game, then both games would've had a Lord unit character; Ryoma for Birthright and Xander for Conquest. Both of these units in their respective games are tanks and could've easily been Lord units. Xander could've become the first mounted Lord we've had since Sigurd and Ryoma alone can solo most of the maps in Birthright, making a point that he could've easily been a Lord unit. 

Xander and Ryoma were both interesting characters, but what hurt them was that they solely revolve around Corrin who becomes the leader in both stories. It would've been interesting to see Xander as a character helping the people of Nohr and being a leader, same with Ryoma. There's a number of characters in Fates that solely revolve around Corrin who have no support conversations except for Corrin (which only serves for marrying options).There are some interesting ideas and some characters could've easily had more to do and become better memorable characters if not for everything having to revolve around the self-inserted Avatar in the game. 

 

The biggest writing issues though aren't even the Avatar/My Unit. It's the black and white analogy of how Hoshido can never do anything wrong and Nohr can never do anything right. I wish this game had taken a page from Holy War with the countries politics and wars. Garon is probably the biggest missed opportunity of writing in these games since he's just a generic evil tyrant. Garon could've been so much more. 

 

With Fates, I try to divide this into gameplay and story, cause despite how awful I found the story, the gameplay is great and worth the replay. Even in Birthright, I had a lot of fun on harder difficulties. One of my favorite things this game did was turning the Thief class into Ninjas and I found them more useful in Fates than any other game I've played in the series. I liked that they balanced the Pair Up mechanic and taking away durability on weapons (I didn't think this was a good idea at first, but I came to love it). There's very few things I disliked about the gameplay overall, and most of them go back to Awakening. 

[mangasdeouf]

Hi guys,

I think the avatar should just go hang him-/herself like GoldPaladin said give us real lords again with their own story and way of doing things. Ryoma is the heir to the throne of Hoshido so make him the lord, same for Xander. the avatar doesn't bring anything to the story and takes the lead while he/she isn't even able to take a decision and stick to it. The whole "we are in war but we don't kill anyone" thing in Conquest is the most ridiculous plot fail I've ever seen. At least in Guardians of the Galaxy they had drones doing war instead of risking the golden people's lives so they could go to war without any life being lost. In CQ it's just "we KO them and we tie them up cuz it's war and time isn't precious at all of course".

Garon. What to tell about him? FE8 had Lyon the Evil Prince/Emperor who had fallen to the Demon King, but he had a reason to do this. He was trying to get power to protect his people from an earthquake that would destroy the empire. He thought he could control the Demon King's power but instead his mind got erased bit by bit until he asked Ephraim (or Eirika but it's better written with Ephraim) to put an end to his not life and finish off the Demon King because he couldn't beat it at it's own game. Meanwhile, Garon is just the bad guy. I didn't finish any of the 3 routes but it doesn't seem to give any real explanation to Garon. Is he mad? Did Anankos possess him like DK did with Lyon? It seems like he was bad from the beginning and he just became crazy before the story began (the story from the moment you play I mean). He could've been a tortured-mind man but instead he's just falling more and more into madness, it sees like we're playing a Batman game and Garon is a person coming right from Arkham Asylum.

And for the fanservice part, if they were going to suppress half of it with exportation they could as well not make any. I don't see the point to make something you know will be cut in half with export. Especially when most of your clients...er scuse me playerbase is buying the exported versions with the best fan service elements censored. Just quit with your fan service or give the same to everyone, holy shit!

[eclipse]

I don't mind an avatar character, but I don't know if IS would have the guts to write out a proper one.  There's two choices that have any impact in-game.  If the avatar's choices affected more things, to the point where it affected who you recruited, what maps you played, and how the ending goes, I think it wouldn't have been so bad.  If Corrin wants to murder and skin the kitsune on Conquest for funds, let the player do so - and then have Keaton un-recruit himself and fight for the kitsune or something.  Give the players and actual say in how the game goes, and I think it might've worked.

[Xander]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:16 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be honest this fandom is hard to stomach on this front - okay, most internet fanbases are to be fair. Criticism is fine and good (and Ertrick's post outlines why) but the internet makes a hobby out of hate and that's not a good thing.

I think it peeves me off especially because so much of it comes from this "old-school" fanbase which has an obvious axe to grind with Awakening/Fates, and that's the portion of the fanbase I'm from too. I expect better of us! I felt this way even when the hate focused on Awakening, a game I have only an average opinion of relative to other Fire Emblems, but it's even more annoying now that it centres on a game that I outright love.

Yeah...no. If you pay attention a good deal of the people complaining about the newer fire emblem games started with Awakening. Hell, I suspect a good deal of them started with Awakening and then played the older games and changed their favorite game so they could pass as an "old-school" fan, which this community seems to put on a pedestal for some reason. This attitude towards the newer games has less to do with an "old-school" fanbase problem and more to do with an attitude problem. In general more popularity = more people = more people with a negative/condescending attitude. There have always been dissenting opinions within the fire emblem community, the problem is now there are more, which means they're more confident and therefore louder.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Xander

[mangasdeouf]

On 17/03/2018 at 11:36 PM, eclipse said:

I don't mind an avatar character, but I don't know if IS would have the guts to write out a proper one.  There's two choices that have any impact in-game.  If the avatar's choices affected more things, to the point where it affected who you recruited, what maps you played, and how the ending goes, I think it wouldn't have been so bad.  If Corrin wants to murder and skin the kitsune on Conquest for funds, let the player do so - and then have Keaton un-recruit himself and fight for the kitsune or something.  Give the players and actual say in how the game goes, and I think it might've worked.

The problem is that, like you said, the character is already written. Fro there on, you can't really choose his/her personnality, her writing, etc. That's why lords fit better in FE: they are written the way they are and nobody asks you to identify to them. While avatars are supposed to be a projection of the player, but we all know the avatars in many video games never look like you the slightest. You can't identify to said character supposed to represent you because he/she already has a personnality, often naive and unable to properly take a decision and for Corrin it's even worse since he/she doesn't even back his decision. Instead of doing war he/she thinks he/she's playing prison dodgeball and capturing ennemies alive, risking far more losses in his/her own camp.

[joshcja]

Can we stop shitting on Cornbread? Not in terms of dank memes or silly humor but in terms of actual hate?

In a lot of ways Corrin is the least intrusive FE avatar. Compared to robin and kris (s)he never really steals the spotlight as hard  despite being the MC. (S)he also has flaws and falls less into the mary/gary stu archetype which for me is absolutely a positive.

As far as "everyone loves you for no reason wow" the fe7 strategist (mark?) is by far the worst offender. Seriously that role just feels so akward and creepery.

In short Corrin for all it's flaws tried to address many common complaints aimed at MU's and did a pretty good job of it. Anyone who heard "half dragon tripple royal player unit" and expected  a relatable character or compelling plot is just an idiot. Stop feeding this.

Corn does dumb shit but so does every lord/mu and without argibg "who's the worst character" (it's Est) lets just take a moment to aknowledge that Corn is at least portrayed as the sort of naieve characer who would make these mistakes complete with a sheltered amensiac background and some of these mistakes do result in real consequences for the character.

Is it the best writing/character? No but like many things in fates it's a step in the right direction.

Edited March 19, 2018 by joshcja

[mangasdeouf]

On 19/03/2018 at 1:49 PM, joshcja said:

Can we stop shitting on Cornbread? Not in terms of dank memes or silly humor but in terms of actual hate?

In a lot of ways Corrin is the least intrusive FE avatar. Compared to robin and kris (s)he never really steals the spotlight as hard  despite being the MC. (S)he also has flaws and falls less into the mary/gary stu archetype which for me is absolutely a positive.

As far as "everyone loves you for no reason wow" the fe7 strategist (mark?) is by far the worst offender. Seriously that role just feels so akward and creepery.

In short Corrin for all it's flaws tried to address many common complaints aimed at MU's and did a pretty good job of it. Anyone who heard "half dragon tripple royal player unit" and expected  a relatable character or compelling plot is just an idiot. Stop feeding this.

Corn does dumb shit but so does every lord/mu and without argibg "who's the worst character" (it's Est) lets just take a moment to aknowledge that Corn is at least portrayed as the sort of naieve characer who would make these mistakes complete with a sheltered amensiac background and some of these mistakes do result in real consequences for the character.

Is it the best writing/character? No but like many things in fates it's a step in the right direction.

The problem isn't Corrin being badly written, it's all the cast praising him/her (or at least a good part of it) even the heir of the throne who should be more realistic about war and reality. Corrin is the center of the attention with a 10 YO mentality and absolutely no experience of the world (he/she has been kept in a tower for like 15 years before the game started) and it's painful to see how much credit the story gives to this character. It's an initiatory journey but the characters' hierarchy is wrong. There's no experienced warrior/ruler to help the avatar or lead the party to success (traditional Jagen role, Seth being the one I know the best who plays this role for the whole game he's part of and it's much more realistic than Eirika being the leader, since he comes up with the plans etc. instead of the candid lord/avatar). That's why Corrin is so hated. If he/she had a supervisor he/she would seem less idiotic and the story could take more realistic paths (even Eirika and Micayah understand that people have to die during a war, and - SPOIL - Micayah kills or gives the order to kill her own king - END OF SPOIL -).

Gameplay-wise: there are many new mechanics in Fates, some are good, others not really. But the number of classes and skills is so big that it becomes filler at a certain point (like blacksmith's iron weapon drop, it's not very useful and it's battle cry is "FILLER CLASS WITH FILLER SKILL!", a blacksmith isn't supposed to fight, hell, how would you craft or repair your weapons if you send your blacksmith to war? smithing is exhausting and the smith can't do both war and work, and the iron weapon drop skill feels trash compared with skills such as devoted servant or whatever the level 5 butler skill is called). And the limit of 1 hit per fight with 1-2 ranged weapons feels just like a way to nerf everyone outside of mages and royals with 1-2 ranged personnal weapon (or just complete domination on bases/growths outside of LOLTakumi who's only good because of his OP weapon that only lacks pass to become completely game breaking).

Edited April 3, 2018 by mangasdeouf

[joshcja]

7 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

The problem isn't Corrin being badly written, it's all the cast praising him/her (or at least a good part of it) even the heir of the throne who should be more realistic about war and reality. Corrin is the center of the attention with a 10 YO mentality and absolutely no experience of the world (he/she has been kept in a tower for like 15 years before the game started) and it's painful to see how much credit the story gives to this character. It's an initiatory journey but the characters' hierarchy is wrong. There's no experienced warrior/ruler to help the avatar or lead the party to success (traditional Jagen role, Seth being the one I know the best who plays this role for the whole game he's part of and it's much more realistic than Eirika being the leader, since he comes up with the plans etc. instead of the candid lord/avatar). That's why Corrin is so hated. If he/she had a supervisor he/she would seem less idiotic and the story could take more realistic paths (even Eirika and Micayah understand that people have to die during a war, and - SPOIL - Micayah kills or gives the order to kill her own king - END OF SPOIL -).

Gameplay-wise: there are many new mechanics in Fates, some are good, others not really. But the number of classes and skills is so big that it becomes filler at a certain point (like blacksmith's iron weapon drop, it's not very useful and it's battle cry is "FILLER CLASS WITH FILLER SKILL!", a blacksmith isn't supposed to fight, hell, how would you craft or repair your weapons if you send your blacksmith to war? smithing is exhausting and the smith can't do both war and work, and the iron weapon drop skill feels trash compared with skills such as devoted servant or whatever the level 5 butler skill is called). And the limit of 1 hit per fight with 1-2 ranged weapons feels just like a way to nerf everyone outside of mages and royals with 1-2 ranged personnal weapon (or just complete domination on bases/growths outside of LOLTakumi who's only good because of his OP weapon that only lacks pass to become completely game breaking).

Ever played New Mystery? Kris will make you beg for Corn again. That said you've just described most FE lords here.

------------------------------

I like blacksmith. Axe focused Hero unit with a better stat spread than hero is pretty good and the animations are glorious.

----------------------------

Never got the idea that royals are da bestest. Even in Rev they sorta get neckdropped by units with better join.

-------------------

+0 weapons are bad in general. +3 hand axe is legendary tier tho.

Edited April 4, 2018 by joshcja

[SerCaladran]

This is probably a strange thread to jump into as my very first post on this forum, but I think the stories themselves are overall decently done, though Conquest has some issues. Conquest broke my heart to play through, so much that, after having played through Birthright, I can't bring myself to play through it again. But Conquest had some issues and it's largely down to the fact that Corrin does too much justifying not acting against Garon sooner. In an alternate way of writing, Corrin would've had a lot more support than once thought. Camilla and Elise would've been onboard immediately, Leo wouldn't have taken much convincing and the story could then have revolved around trying to convince Xander while he casts them all off as traitors; Anankos begins working through Xander. At the same time, Corrin finds NO support from Hoshido with one exception: Hinoka. But Hinoka alone, without her retainers. Xander wages war and conquers most of Hoshido, Takumi still goes stark raving mad, and the battle concludes with Xander killing Ryoma instead of Corrin. Garon then tries to kill Xander for failing to stop Corrin's rebellion, and goes to claim Hoshido's throne. Iago is fought, Xander joins, and the finale of Conquest plays out, Takumi crazy and everything. 

 

Birthright plays out much the same way as normal, with direct defection from Camilla (Again alone) early on. 

 

One thing that Fire Emblem has done since at least FE6 is provide characters that only have depth when you explore their supports. This has been hit or miss in Fates, largely because fanservice. But even then, they could've done a better job, and they do have a few well written characters in the bunch. Nyx is an example of this. But then they have characters that have TREMENDOUS potential but are squandered by the fanservicey bits. the one who is hit worst? Camilla. Her backstory creates a *lot* of potential for great character development. 

For example, look at her supports with Corrin. They're pure fetish fuel. But knowing Camilla and her separation anxiety issues and mother complex? There's a very easy way to give her tremendous character development. Here's how I would restructure their supports:

C-Support: Mostly Unchanged, but a bit more heavy handed on Camilla's doting. 

B: Camilla dials up the devotion to super-creep levels. An angry Corrin rebuffs Camilla, finally disturbed and angry at her aberrant mothering. A saddened Camilla leaves, wondering what she did wrong. 

A: Corrin goes to apologize to Camilla, finding her a depressed wreck. Leo explained about the decadent court she grew up in, and Corrin wants to apologize. Camilla then explains in detail the life she lived while she was young, and what she wants: In effect, to be someone who loves and is loved. She's wracked with guilt over Corrin's kidnapping, and compares herself to Corrin, saying that because of her past, she doesn't deserve to love them. Corrin responds by hugging her tight and saying that she is worthy. Just dial back the doting and let me breathe. 

S: Camilla thanks Corrin for helping her out of her funk and giving her a lot to think about. Corrin smiles and gives her another small hug. Camilla then says says "I dream of having children. Real children of my own." Corrin is nervous, but Camilla continues, disowning her parents. "I never had a mother. All I had was a monster who birthed me. And...these days, I wonder if I really had a father. I dream of being different." Corrin says "Then let's make your dream a reality." He then busts out a ring to Camilla's delight, saying "You won't be my mother, but you will be my partner." Camilla accepts, and you get the unchanged confession scene. 

 

 

To me, a focus on Camilla's past would develop her well. The only support where you see this is with Niles, whom...I don't like. Camilla's other supports are fine - I wouldn't change her supports with Takumi at all, for instance - but she needs a good character development support. Hell, even PERI gets some fantastic character development with Laslow. 

There are other characters that get this treatment, where they're stagnant. But none moreso than Camilla. And her supports with Corrin are nonsensical. 

[joshcja]

Plot aside the 4-way support chain between the nhorbles does an excelent job of exploring their pasts and motivations.

[SerCaladran]

13 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Plot aside the 4-way support chain between the nhorbles does an excelent job of exploring their pasts and motivations.

Yeah but Camilla in particular needs a bit more emphasis on her past than she got with Niles.