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Which Continent/World is the Strongest?


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2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

They wouldn't know it the first time and Dragon Vein effects are so unpredictable, it'll be hard to counter them, even for the likes of Robin and Soren. Because it's not just terraforming, there's a shit ton of other Dragon Vein effects that the enemy wouldn't see coming. Suddenly, they'll be left wondering why all of their mages can't speak, or why acid rain is raining out of nowhere, or why everyone just stopped moving.

Yeah, that isn't necessarily how Dragon Veins work. Really, they are all random effects. And even then, this doesn't guarantee a victory for Fateslandia. In fact, Robin and Soren after understanding enough of the mechanisms and information, they could easily come up with counterstrategies and make use of it themselves. The royals could activate a dragon's vein, but this could be used to actually give the other army the advantage. Furthermore, how exactly does one locate a dragon's vein? It exists in places in Fateslandia, but this doesn't mean it exists others or would even work there. 

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

What makes you think that Grima eating Anankos would kill him? And if Grima does eat him, what's stopping Anankos from just opening a black hole and ripping Grima apart from the inside?

Getting eaten up and chewed to pieces makes it rather hard to avoid death. Grima WOULD survive since he literally cannot die except by his own hand. Anankos does not have that kind of immortality. 

The only reason Grima was even able to be killed was because of an oversight of his past self being able to make such a choice. 

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Flying Dragons are the weakest of the bunch. Really, the only thing i can agree on here is that Earth Dragons are stronger than Elibe Dragons but that's about it. Also, Elibe does have a Mage Dragon, her name is Idoun.

Where does it actually say that? I admit that they may be weaker since we see them still being able to breed, but the stats in the on the games when we fight the Wyverns actually suggests they are in fact just as powerful as the other dragons. There really weren't any indication or mention of Wyverns being inferior in the end. 

Also, no. The Mage Dragon in Elibe is not a natural dragon, but rather a corrupted Divine Dragon. Not the same. Mage Dragon is an actual dragon tribe that fires magical breaths and are immune to magical attacks in the Archanea series. 

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Taboo is something that you shouldn't do. It doesn't mean that Naga can do it better that Anankos, it means that Anankos feels that he shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

He cannot break taboo. Not, he shouldn't break taboo. And this is from creating a stone that can only send three kids either back to the Awakening world or their future. But that's it. He can only manage that. Meanwhile, Naga moved 12 people and ultimately a bunch of Risen through time from her Outrealm Gate. And then either her or another Naga ended up bringing in Chrom's group from his world to an alternate world in the future.

Naga actually managed to violate that taboo act repeatedly several times with no consequences. This is what Anankos is awed by, that she can actually do so much. And again, Naga is not in physical form, but rather in spiritual. The contact she has on the material world is small, and even then, she could manage to perform this much. 

Anankos is tough, but in the end, Naga is still the stronger Dragon of the two. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, that isn't necessarily how Dragon Veins work. Really, they are all random effects.

Except they always seem to be convenient to the person that uses them. The fact alone makes me think it's not just a random effect but that the user has control over it.

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Furthermore, how exactly does one locate a dragon's vein? It exists in places in Fateslandia, but this doesn't mean it exists others or would even work there. 

Well first of all, the assumption that OP made is that all of the continents were in one world. Meaning if they exist in Fateslandia, they'd exist elsewhere two. Second, i feel like the DV spots are a case of gameplay vs story segregation. Again, there always seems to be a Dragon Vein when it's needed and it's always convenient (except for Ch.12 in Conquest).

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima WOULD survive since he literally cannot die except by his own hand. Anankos does not have that kind of immortality. 

Here's the thing though, Anankos can kill Grima.....his physical body that is. In the ending where Grima is sealed away, Grima is still alive but his corpse remains. That's what Naga means when she can't kill Grima. She can kill the physical body but the soul just gets sealed away until a new vessel is born. 

So far, only two things have been shown to stop Anankos on a story perspective. The Song and the Omega Yato. 

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

but the stats

I don't think we should be taking stats into this. Otherwise, Ylisse just beats everyone by a long mile, though with Fateslandia close behind.

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He cannot break taboo.

Definition of Taboo: "a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing/prohibited or restricted by social custom"

Taboos can be broken but the entire point is that you shouldn't break them.

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And this is from creating a stone that can only send three kids either back to the Awakening world or their future. But that's it. He can only manage that.

Anankos invaded literally every parallel world. Sending three kids back to Ylisse is tiny compared to that and i'd argue it's more impressive than sending a bunch of kids (and undead soldiers) through time.

 

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1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Except they always seem to be convenient to the person that uses them. The fact alone makes me think it's not just a random effect but that the user has control over it.

If it was always that easy, then either Hoshidans or Nohrians could just create an earthquake and just bury their opponents. but it can't. Menaing that it needs to properly connect with the situation is at. And even then, it can be predicted and countered. And like I said for Archanea/Ylisse, Geosphere/Vert has terraforming abilities as well.

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Here's the thing though, Anankos can kill Grima.....his physical body that is. In the ending where Grima is sealed away, Grima is still alive but his corpse remains. That's what Naga means when she can't kill Grima. She can kill the physical body but the soul just gets sealed away until a new vessel is born. 

So far, only two things have been shown to stop Anankos on a story perspective. The Song and the Omega Yato. 

That's just it. The song and Omega Yato are just two things, one that was made by Anankos himself, and the other by the Rainbow Sage, meaning that something of great magical power like the Omega Yato can hurt Anankos. So Grima is very much capable of also killing Anankos. And just devour him would be enough. Are you saying that Anankos can survive being chewed to bits and swallowed? Nope.

Not to mention that the lore-wise, Grima is shown to only ever be harmed by Falchion after it has received the blessings from Naga. Lucina performed a partial Awakening and thus released some of Falchion's power and that was able to harm Grima. This actually means that other forms of weaponry cannot harm him. Falchion is Naga's power. It's questionable on whether the Yato could actually hurt Grima. Not to mention, unlike Falchion, which is unbreakable, the Yato has clearly shown to break. Grima could potentially destroy that as well.

10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I don't think we should be taking stats into this. Otherwise, Ylisse just beats everyone by a long mile, though with Fateslandia close behind.

That is not what I am trying to say. The game should not be used to define everything. However, some cases of the gameplay mechanics are intended to be a translation of the lore. Wyverns possessing similar stats to that of other dragons that we fight is an indication of how they are still dragons and can actually rival the other dragons in might. Nothing in the lore of wyverns actually suggests that their tribe, the Flying Tribe, was by any means inferior.

12 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Definition of Taboo: "a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing/prohibited or restricted by social custom"

Taboos can be broken but the entire point is that you shouldn't break them.

Precisely! You shouldn't break them. Why? Because then you cause reality to collapse on itself. And guess what? Anankos states that he cannot break it anymore than this, meaning that anymore and he risks damaging reality. But Naga was able to perform the deed so easily just like that without a hint of consequence. Reality remained untouched in the end and so many people went though time. 

This just emphasizes how much more powerful Naga really is. 

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Anankos invaded literally every parallel world. Sending three kids back to Ylisse is tiny compared to that and i'd argue it's more impressive than sending a bunch of kids (and undead soldiers) through time.

You mean how Anankos is going to invade other Fateslandias of Birthrights and Conquests in Heirs of Fate? That doesn't emphasize anything on Anankos' own power at all. He only conquers other worlds that are already done with their war and never awakened to the power of the Yato and had Azura die, and apparently no Shigure. In other words, worlds that were by no means capable of actually fighting back, as the Omega Yato and the song would not be able to be used against him. 

And again, that stone that Anankos gave was all he was capable of. He could not produce anything else because again, he cannot violate the taboo anymore. Risking big consequences once again, something that Naga was able to do a bunch of times with no consequence. Naga's power is still in another league's compared to Anankos. 

Once again, I want to point out that Naga was in spiritual form. Unable to interact with reality. Anankos actually COULD. He had his body and thus could use his powers in the world. Naga was limited, and still she managed more. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If it was always that easy, then either Hoshidans or Nohrians could just create an earthquake and just bury their opponents. but it can't.

If it was that easy, we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

But i blame this on Dragon Veins barely being explained. It's just a thing that happens.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And like I said for Archanea/Ylisse, Geosphere/Vert has terraforming abilities as well.

Yes but not to the extent that Fateslandia has.

 

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Are you saying that Anankos can survive being chewed to bits and swallowed? Nope.

Again, i doubt that would be enough to kill Anankos. Being eaten doesn't seem like something that would kill him easily.

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This actually means that other forms of weaponry cannot harm him.

I don't think a black hole classifies as weaponry.

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention, unlike Falchion, which is unbreakable, the Yato has clearly shown to break.

The two times the Yato has broken was because it was incomplete.

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Precisely! You shouldn't break them. Why? Because then you cause reality to collapse on itself.

That's not how taboos work. 

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Anankos states that he cannot break it anymore than this, meaning that anymore and he risks damaging reality.

He says that yet he invades literally every parallel world. 

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He only conquers other worlds that are already done with their war and never awakened to the power of the Yato and had Azura die, and apparently no Shigure. In other words, worlds that were by no means capable of actually fighting back, as the Omega Yato and the song would not be able to be used against him. 

Even if he picked off easy targets, that's still an infinite number of worlds that he conquered.

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Risking big consequences once again, something that Naga was able to do a bunch of times with no consequence.

What big consequences? He never mentions any. 

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Once again, I want to point out that Naga was in spiritual form. Unable to interact with reality. Anankos actually COULD. He had his body and thus could use his powers in the world. Naga was limited, and still she managed more. 

And i want to point out that the Anankos we see is never at full power. Yet he's able to cross dimensions, send people through time, terraform the future of a world that isn't his, open up black holes, command the dead and conquer an infinite number of parallel worlds. 

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1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Taboo is something that you shouldn't do. It doesn't mean that Naga can do it better that Anankos, it means that Anankos feels that he shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Possibly a speculative reason why being revived by Forseti comes at cost of having to abandon your old life, and why Ethlyn lost her memories. The Archanean dragons see contradicting the nature cycle of life and death as taboo, die when you die, live while you live, don't try to alter the course too much.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

What makes you think that Grima eating Anankos would kill him? And if Grima does eat him, what's stopping Anankos from just opening a black hole and ripping Grima apart from the inside?

An implosion, cool. Unless Grima survives turns into Evil Kirby as a result.

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention there are other continents that are shown to be very powerful as well. By Awakening, as mentioned above, Walhart's forces was stated to contain a million men. That's how large his military might is. And Jugdral has several powerful knights and even has the Holy Weapons that make their users said to be one man armies. Marth is regarded so well in legend as a godlike hero that his descendant Lucina thought he was a powerful and imposing figure. Marth isn't buff or shows as much of a warrior's spirit like Ike or Hector does, but Marth is still a capable fighter of his own, but has far more charisma than any other Lord. Marth is a Lord that fully and wholly embraces his weakness and allows others assist him, and more than anything, wants to protect them. He understands that sacrifice is inevitable, but he would want to ensure that everyone that he cherishes survives.

I don't think Marth has to be anywhere near a war god. Letting Ike be the combat king is fine, Marth has other qualities, like regality. It isn't like in a war of thousands Marth, or Roy, needs to fight, you need people commanding from the back of the battlefield. And I guess Eliwood can find a job with Elincia in the wartime diplomacy department- forging strong alliances can help out.

 

I really shouldn't have opened the door for the possibility of letting villains in. Since the Archanean dragon stuff being brought up is I think partly owed to the fact that if Medeus helped Archanea, he'd bring the ferals with him.

And perhaps this dragon discussion is a little meaningless. By that I mean does it really matter how strong the dragons are vis a vis each other? The Goldoans can wipe out a continent, the Archaneans can wipe out a continent. The difference is between an arsenal of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles with 3 nuclear warheads and an arsenal with 7 nuclear warheads. Either way, the ICBMs will reduce everything to ruin, one will let a half a ruined wall stand, the other will reduce said half of wall to ashes. But I guess this might matter in a intercontinental war of supremacy where all sides are willing to go all the way to be lord of the cockroaches when everything is said and done.

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25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

If it was that easy, we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

But i blame this on Dragon Veins barely being explained. It's just a thing that happens.

Meaning there are limits. And again, there's no guarantee they actually work in other areas.

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yes but not to the extent that Fateslandia has.

You never see it. Hell, Shadow Dragon shows that it can actually cause a major quake that just hits all the enemies on the map. And this is before its on the Shield of Seals. Had the Shield of Seals had its lore translated into the game properly, it would be utterly gamebreaking.

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Again, i doubt that would be enough to kill Anankos. Being eaten doesn't seem like something that would kill him easily.

Given his size, Grima would not just swallow him whole. So getting chewed to pieces doesn't exactly bode well for Anankos. Unlike Grima, Anankos can die and stay dead. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I don't think a black hole classifies as weaponry.

That's even if that black hole that Anankos can summon would even work on Grima. For all we know, he could just destroy it with his Expiration. Or use his own Grima's Truth attack on it. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The two times the Yato has broken was because it was incomplete.

Until Heirs of Fate reveals that Anankos broke that one as well. So that argument is invalid. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That's not how taboos work. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

What big consequences? He never mentions any. 

Okay, I want to point something out to you. Now then, taboo as the definition states is a social and religious custom that prohibits use of actions and practices. Except by what logic is there for Anankos to use the term "taboo" when he himself is said to be a god? 

That's pretty much it. The word taboo when said by the "god" itself means that it's more than simple "it's frowned upon" case. Who would exactly frown upon Anankos if he violated a taboo so much? No one, that's who. Yet Anankos stated that he cannot violate it. Why? This very well proves that there is a dangerous consequence to performing this kind of violation. It does not need to be said at all. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Even if he picked off easy targets, that's still an infinite number of worlds that he conquered.

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

He says that yet he invades literally every parallel world. 

Uh, what? How is that an accomplishment? He isn't conquering an infinite number of worlds, though. He is attacking different versions of his own world that has no means of fighting back. 

And yes, he is not going back in time here. He is literally going through a different version of the same world.

Naga sent people from one timeline to another, and then from one timeline to another world's timeline. 

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

And i want to point out that the Anankos we see is never at full power. Yet he's able to cross dimensions, send people through time, terraform the future of a world that isn't his, open up black holes, command the dead and conquer an infinite number of parallel worlds. 

Where does it say this? No really, where? Anankos literally says when Lilith leaves that leaving Valla will weaken them. Anankos even states when he fights in the final chapter that he has regained his power after devouring Garon.

Quote

Anankos: Grrrawwww... Lowly, pitiful humans... You can't... I need...more power... I need more dragon's blood! I have no choice... GARON!
(Garon suddenly appears before the party)

Xander: What... Father?!
Leo: What are you doing here, Father?!
Garon: I serve the great Anankos! Of course I would come when called. It seems that Gunter proved a poor conduit for the Silent Dragon, however. A pity—I thought that having him cast into Valla would be enough... Anankos! Use me to channel your mighty power, instead! Join with me, and together we can rule this pitiful world!
Anankos: Ha... Hahaha... HAHAHA! You think too much of yourself, worm!
(Anankos rears up and consumes Garon)

Garon: Wha—GAAAAAAAAAA!!
Elise: FATHER!
Camilla: How... How has it come to this?!
Leo: It...can't... Father!!
Xander: After all that we've suffered... We lose our father as well?
(Anankos rises up again)

Anankos: Bwahahahaha!! Ahhh... I'd forgotten how much power I'd given him. It's good to have it back!

Anankos was at full strength by then.

And though Human Anankos did all that , he knew of his full strength, and still remarked about how Naga's power is just awing. Not to mention that Anankos chose three Awakening children and was confident that they could succeed in killing him because they had a hand in defeating Grima.

Naga is the one that wasn't at full strength. Being a spirit means that she cannot intervene in her world as often. It was only through being in Mount Prism and having the Gemstones that Naga could even be called. And Tiki being Naga's voice is the only one that can communicate with Naga. Naga's powers are limited in usage, and the fact that she could manipulate the fabric of space-time even more than Anankos can is actually a definitive proof that her powers are much greater than his own. 

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think Marth has to be anywhere near a war god. Letting Ike be the combat king is fine, Marth has other qualities, like regality. It isn't like in a war of thousands Marth, or Roy, needs to fight, you need people commanding from the back of the battlefield. And I guess Eliwood can find a job with Elincia in the wartime diplomacy department- forging strong alliances can help out.

Marth isn't a war god. He is regarded as this invincible hero because of how he united the continent and defeated Medeus, slaying the mighty dragon. But Marth was beyond just a strong fighter in his own right. Marth never sought strength like Ike, Hector, and Ephriam do. He's someone that understands the limitations of humans and thus learned that fighting together with allies is the key to truly being victorious.

While I rank Robin as the best tactician, Marth is arguably the best leader. 

Edited by omegaxis1
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10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And again, there's no guarantee they actually work in other areas.

And there's no guarantee that they can't work in other areas. 

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

So getting chewed to pieces doesn't exactly bode well for Anankos.

That still wouldn't kill him though.

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

For all we know, he could just destroy it with his Expiration. Or use his own Grima's Truth attack on it. 

I'm 100% positive that Grima's breath and magic would just get sucked into the black hole. 

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Who would exactly frown upon Anankos if he violated a taboo so much? No one, that's who.

I'd argue it was a rule imposed by the other First Dragons but there's no concrete evidence on that because Fates barely tells us things. Human Anankos, at least, is determined to keep that taboo. Degenerated Anankos wouldn't care. Besides, the taboo only really applies to humans traveling through time. Why? I don't know. But seeing as how Anankos is able to completely terraform the future of a world that isn't even his, i'd argue that time-travel for him isn't that big of an issue.

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yet Anankos stated that he cannot violate it. Why? This very well proves that there is a dangerous consequence to performing this kind of violation. It does not need to be said at all. 

Likewise, there is no concrete proof that dangerous consequences will occur. 

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Uh, what? How is that an accomplishment?

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

He isn't conquering an infinite number of worlds, though. He is attacking different versions of his own world that has no means of fighting back. 

That's still an infinite number of worlds though. There's also the fact that Heirs of Fate Shigure came from a Revelation timeline where Anankos won which means Anankos can definitely conquer worlds that can fight back.

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention that Anankos chose three Awakening children and was confident that they could succeed in killing him because they had a hand in defeating Grima.

Which is strange because there's no actual way the Awakening children can kill Anankos. Again, the only two things that can hurt Anankos are The Song and the Omega Yato, neither of which the Awakening kids can do. It would've made more sense to choose a Falchion wielder, since that's probably one of the very few things outside of Fateslandia that might be able to even hurt him.

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Naga's powers are limited in usage, and the fact that she could manipulate the fabric of space-time even more than Anankos can is actually a definitive proof that her powers are much greater than his own. 

Except it doesn't. I'll give you that Naga has better time-manipulation powers but Anankos has equally as powerful space-manipulation. But in terms of overall power, both are about equal.

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28 minutes ago, Armagon said:

And there's no guarantee that they can't work in other areas. 

That't not a sound argument at all. The other worlds don't have Dragon Veins. Only Fateslandia does. So there's actually more evidence to suggest that only Fateslandia has the Dragon Veins.

29 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That still wouldn't kill him though.

Yes it would. Or hell, there's only one place that Grima needs to hit. The eyeballs that are in Anankos' mouth. That's all he needs to hit. 

Grima and Naga are entities that are so powerful that neither can truly die. Grima may have killed Naga, but didn't erase her and ultimately her title passed on to Tiki. Grima himself cannot be killed by anyone but himself. Grima needs to be sealed. But this begs the question: If you somehow destroy the body, but Grima is still not sealed, wouldn't that actually mean that Grima would in fact just revive himself? The entire case of Grima's corpse even being there is only because Falchion was used to seal Grima. Meaning there likely wouldn't even be a corpse if Grima isn't sealed, but rather Grima would end up recovering.

30 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'm 100% positive that Grima's breath and magic would just get sucked into the black hole. 

Or it would instead cause the black hole to instantly collapse in itself, rendering it beaten.

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'd argue it was a rule imposed by the other First Dragons but there's no concrete evidence on that because Fates barely tells us things. Human Anankos, at least, is determined to keep that taboo. Degenerated Anankos wouldn't care. Besides, the taboo only really applies to humans traveling through time. Why? I don't know. But seeing as how Anankos is able to completely terraform the future of a world that isn't even his, i'd argue that time-travel for him isn't that big of an issue.

17 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Likewise, there is no concrete proof that dangerous consequences will occur. 

That actually does NOT make sense. If he has the ability to do all that, but he cannot for some reason make it that three kids would have the ability to only choose to either return to the Awakening world or return to their own future. That makes absolutely no sense if he could send them back to either world, but chose not to do that out of mere courtesy.

"I'm sorry. I'm going to impose such a painful choice on you despite how I said this is to be a reward simply because I cannot do this out of principle."

No, that makes no sense. It WOULD make sense that he cannot perform it because there would be dangerous consequence to this.

20 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That's still an infinite number of worlds though. There's also the fact that Heirs of Fate Shigure came from a Revelation timeline where Anankos won which means Anankos can definitely conquer worlds that can fight back.

Except the worlds that have been conquered were NOT worlds that could fight back. Like Shigure said, he's only been attacking Birthright and Conquest worlds. No other worlds were Revelations. And all Anankos was saying is that he seeks to find a world that hasn't been defiled by humans. Anankos is not going through time here. He is sending them to worlds that are parallel to his own. And hell, based on how these attacks goes, it's implying that he's attacking the Deeprealms, not the actual world itself. And the Deeprealms are already places that makes no sense. 

Fateslandia is essentially a world where dimensions are already connected together, so it makes sense for Anankos to be able to send in forces to those dimensions. But he has not once attacked actual other worlds like Awakening, Tellius, etc. Those worlds can and would fight back. If he attacks Awakening, he no doubt would incur Naga's interference. 

31 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Which is strange because there's no actual way the Awakening children can kill Anankos. Again, the only two things that can hurt Anankos are The Song and the Omega Yato, neither of which the Awakening kids can do. It would've made more sense to choose a Falchion wielder, since that's probably one of the very few things outside of Fateslandia that might be able to even hurt him.

And it's precisely because of that. The Yato actually never even makes it into the conversation. Anankos knows himself and his power, yet he states just like that that they have to kill him. He mentions the song, but even then, he didn't continue it. You realize the issue here? Falchion and Robin were confirmed to be the only way of defeating Grima, but for Anankos, nothing was said, despite how we see that the Omega Yato and the song can be used. 

34 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Except it doesn't. I'll give you that Naga has better time-manipulation powers but Anankos has equally as powerful space-manipulation. But in terms of overall power, both are about equal.

You cannot say that Naga has better time manipulation powers and then say that Anankos has equal powers. You can argue that they are potentially equal, but there's nothing to suggest that Anankos is truly stronger than Naga by any means. 

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That actually does NOT make sense. If he has the ability to do all that, but he cannot for some reason make it that three kids would have the ability to only choose to either return to the Awakening world or return to their own future. That makes absolutely no sense if he could send them back to either world, but chose not to do that out of mere courtesy.

"I'm sorry. I'm going to impose such a painful choice on you despite how I said this is to be a reward simply because I cannot do this out of principle."

No, that makes no sense. It WOULD make sense that he cannot perform it because there would be dangerous consequence to this.

I think you could safely manipulate timespace all you wanted to if you were smart enough to know what would cause issues. But to avoid giving the impression to others that you should, you restrict your own use of timespace manipulation. Why do shouldn't you encourage timespace manipulation? Because if you do, what if someone decides to do it for malicious intentions or does it poorly/dangerously? Forseti could have intervened more in Jugdralian affairs without consequences because he is a sane and wise dragon, but didn't out of the principle it would be bad to do so because it might cause some other dragons he has not control over to get too caught up in humanity and create problems that way. SoV speaks on this a bit. Dheginsea could have interfered in the daily affairs of Tellius, he is a good wise man, but what if a stray Dragon Laguz wasn't? His own daughter and younger son ended up doing a whole lot of messing things up, and this was while he had total control of his people.

And principle, is the very premise of Camuses I think. Disloyalty is setting a bad precedent that may cause others to misbehave, even if your disloyalty might in a certain way be a good thing. However, because your disloyalty might cause greater problems than those it might solve, you don't betray your problematic cause and fight for it to the end.

 

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima and Naga are entities that are so powerful that neither can truly die. Grima may have killed Naga, but didn't erase her and ultimately her title passed on to Tiki. Grima himself cannot be killed by anyone but himself. Grima needs to be sealed. But this begs the question: If you somehow destroy the body, but Grima is still not sealed, wouldn't that actually mean that Grima would in fact just revive himself? The entire case of Grima's corpse even being there is only because Falchion was used to seal Grima. Meaning there likely wouldn't even be a corpse if Grima isn't sealed, but rather Grima would end up recovering.

Eh, Naga can die. Just seal off all means of Naga's escape from World X and kill all lifeforms therein Naga might use for her purposes. Nobody to help her, no place to run, she's lost the battle between good and evil and dead at least figuratively unless she can invent a new human race (and Naga has shown no abilities of creating new life outside of the sexual intercourse that led to Tiki (I wonder what the Divine Dragon King Consort was like?)- only blood giving and resurrection). But I doubt Grima would allow that to happen it a world where they have surrounded Naga in every single direction and location. Had Lucina and crew died in the world Future Past shows us, Naga would have been doomed, no ifs, and, or Tiki butts about it.

 

But again, I think the dragonhole sent this topic off a cliff. Lets move on.

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25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think you could safely manipulate timespace all you wanted to if you were smart enough to know what would cause issues. But to avoid giving the impression to others that you should, you restrict your own use of timespace manipulation. Why do shouldn't you encourage timespace manipulation? Because if you do, what if someone decides to do it for malicious intentions or does it poorly/dangerously? Forseti could have intervened more in Jugdralian affairs without consequences because he is a sane and wise dragon, but didn't out of the principle it would be bad to do so because it might cause some other dragons he has not control over to get too caught up in humanity and create problems that way. SoV speaks on this a bit. Dheginsea could have interfered in the daily affairs of Tellius, he is a good wise man, but what if a stray Dragon Laguz wasn't? His own daughter and younger son ended up doing a whole lot of messing things up, and this was while he had total control of his people.

Yeah, see, there's an issue with that. Forseti possessed Lewyn, and guess what happened? He might have better helped save Jugdral, but Forseti's interference actually resulted in Lewyn's personality become warped, where he was a mix of the two now. This also made Lewyn disconnected with his family, made him abandon his wife and kids, was not there for when his wife died, and when his canon daughter calls him out on it, he tells her to mind her own business. Like WTF?! 

The act of enforcing your will onto others is the act of bringing harm to innocents and hurts others around you. Forseti may have had good intentions, but he has to have understood that he just caused suffering for others as well. This was precisely what Naga herself was worried about in regards to making the Book of Naga. 

As for Dheginsea, you already know what happens when dragon laguz are in contact with chaos energy. You give dragons a wif, and they end up going ballistic. Dheginsea knew that and thus is why he wanted to always stay neutral. Yes, it hurt others, but he knew that if he fought with the other dragons, they could potentially end up laying waste toe Tellius. So in all honesty, his act of inaction is a very sound judgment.

In fact, let's take some things further. Mila revives people and brings crops to life. That's great, but look what happened the moment that Mila's power was sealed? It resulted in Terrors running amok. Mila was degenerating in Echoes. Even the act of bringing others to life has limits and possibly also has consequences behind it, and Mila degenerating to madness moves to show just how terrible it would have been once the madness truly set in. 

Divine Dragons refused to create War Dragons. Why? Cause it is a violation of life? So its a taboo. But look at how War Dragons are made. You destroy the soul of a Divine Dragon, corrupt her into a monstrous being, and the War Dragons are basically mindless drones that only take orders and murder and such.  

Taboos placed by dragons generally aren't there for merely a case of a moral compass. It has actual consequences behind it. 

25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And principle, is the very premise of Camuses I think. Disloyalty is setting a bad precedent that may cause others to misbehave, even if your disloyalty might in a certain way be a good thing. However, because your disloyalty might cause greater problems than those it might solve, you don't betray your problematic cause and fight for it to the end.

Camus archetypes are humans though, pledged to loyalty. But Anankos is not a Camus archetype, and is the highest position of power in his world. He is the god there. So with the argument above, it really has to have a serious consequence behind it. 

25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Eh, Naga can die. Just seal off all means of Naga's escape from World X and kill all lifeforms therein Naga might use for her purposes. Nobody to help her, no place to run, she's lost the battle between good and evil and dead at least figuratively unless she can invent a new human race (and Naga has shown no abilities of creating new life outside of the sexual intercourse that led to Tiki (I wonder what the Divine Dragon King Consort was like?)- only blood giving and resurrection). But I doubt Grima would allow that to happen it a world where they have surrounded Naga in every single direction and location. Had Lucina and crew died in the world Future Past shows us, Naga would have been doomed, no ifs, and, or Tiki butts about it.

Well she can. I made a thread about it too. But it's more on to destroy Naga for good, the entire world needs to be destroyed. Original Awakening timeline and Future Past timeline, Grima was close, very close to making that happen. 

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26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Taboos placed by dragons generally aren't there for merely a case of a moral compass. It has actual consequences behind it. 

The moral compass exists because violations of morality are believed to have real repercussions on the world. If you believe pornography is wrong, it is not out of some intangible reason, it is because you seriously believe society will suffer material consequences because of pornography. Dheg believes breaking from neutrality breaks his moral compass, which he knows, as you pointed out and I absolutely agree with, has serious physical implications for Tellius. Morality is not apart from the real world, but concerned with it. Taboos exist for morality, and morality exists for the betterment of the physical-mental-spiritual day-to-day world.

As for Lewyn- the alternative was letting Lewyn die (we have no real idea if he could have been resurrected without partial possession)- that'd be bad for his family too. What is the suffering of 2 people due to a bad father (Fury likely understood I would hope), compared to stopping a continent from being persecuted by child hunting cultists? He's saving many more children than he ever hurt. Ced coincidentally saves kids because Dad ran off.

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2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The moral compass exists because violations of morality are believed to have real repercussions on the world. If you believe pornography is wrong, it is not out of some intangible reason, it is because you seriously believe society will suffer material consequences because of pornography. Dheg believes breaking from neutrality breaks his moral compass, which he knows, as you pointed out and I absolutely agree with, has serious physical implications for Tellius. Morality is not apart from the real world, but concerned with it. Taboos exist for morality, and morality exists for the betterment of the physical-mental-spirtual day to day world.

You're making the worst comparison here. Yes, morality does have a case, but in the case of dragons, the matters are still far grander. Anankos may have performed great feats, but violating the taboo that he simply says he cannot go any further is a implication that there is consequences. Especially if he added that the fact that Naga was able to violate the taboo to such a degree is awing must mean that Naga did far more than Anankos did, but no form of repercussions occurred. Morality has no form of implication here really, rather there was an avoidance of serious consequences.

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for Lewyn- the alternative was letting Lewyn die (we have no real idea if he could have resurrected without partial possession)- that'd be bad for his family too. What is the suffering of 2 people due to a bad father (Fury likely understood I would hope), compared to stopping a continent from being persecuted by child hunting cultists? He's saving many more children than he ever hurt. Ced coincidentally saves kids because Dad ran off.

Except it wasn't JUST his kids that suffered or his wife. Lewyn abandoned his ENTIRE kingdom. His people also suffered because of that. Lewyn was supposed to be king, but he abandoned that despite how he declared that he would take responsibility and become king. Yes, what Forseti did resulted in saving many people, but he has also caused many people to suffer because of his own actions as well. 

 

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Okay I don't think there's any way to address everything that's been said xD

I don't think Naga vs Grima vs Anankos is all that important. Naga can't directly intervene in issues herself (only giving tools to help and other smaller acts of power), Anankos is not on Grima and Naga's level, and Grima hates everyone so if he was forced to cooperate with one side he'd still be more likely to try and blow up everything. I doubt they'd trust his help enough to actually get him to help.

Let's say they do though. Grima is powerful, on par with Naga. So what in each world could rival him?

Walhart and his forces aren't as big a deal as is supposed. They fall apart without Walhart, get rid of him and the huge army is reduced to deserters. Yen'fey could only hold his portion together.

If Valentia kept Duma and Mila their attention would be more on stopping the huge their-level threats than the general battle so while Valentia could put a big dent in the others I don't see them winning.

I haven't played most of the others though xD Only Tellius, Awakening, Fates, SoV, and Shadow Dragon (but it's been a while and I lost the game)

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4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But again, I think the dragonhole sent this topic off a cliff. Lets move on.

I'm sorry. 

I do get a little heated whenever people claim that Anankos is more powerful because of how much power they try to show off for him in Fates. I always find that the flashier someone is with their powers, it gives the wrong impression on whether they are stronger.

But this topic isn't what this is about. There was a "Strongest Dragon" topic once before, though.

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Okay I don't think there's any way to address everything that's been said xD

I don't think Naga vs Grima vs Anankos is all that important. Naga can't directly intervene in issues herself (only giving tools to help and other smaller acts of power), Anankos is not on Grima and Naga's level, and Grima hates everyone so if he was forced to cooperate with one side he'd still be more likely to try and blow up everything. I doubt they'd trust his help enough to actually get him to help.

Let's say they do though. Grima is powerful, on par with Naga. So what in each world could rival him?

Walhart and his forces aren't as big a deal as is supposed. They fall apart without Walhart, get rid of him and the huge army is reduced to deserters. Yen'fey could only hold his portion together.

If Valentia kept Duma and Mila their attention would be more on stopping the huge their-level threats than the general battle so while Valentia could put a big dent in the others I don't see them winning.

I haven't played most of the others though xD Only Tellius, Awakening, Fates, SoV, and Shadow Dragon (but it's been a while and I lost the game)

Yeah, the villains case really doesn't seem to warrant enough because it just doesn't work in the end. 

Walhart is the pinnacle of his army and without him, it does feel like it would fall apart. However, as a warrior, Walhart has virtually no equal in the game. I believe Chrom even admitted that Walhart is stronger than him, though I'm not entirely sure. Basilio is a khan from Ferox that determines their leadership more through strength and battle prowess, with strength is the law. And him and his forces faced Walhart and Walhart just tore through his forces quickly. Hell, Walhart gives Basilio praise for surviving more than a single strike. Basilio even questions if Walhart is even human. 

Basilio is actually regarded to be very strong according to Lon'qu, and even has this dialogue to show how skillful he is:

Quote

Lon'qu: Hiii-YA! *Crash* ...Hmph. Another failure.
Olivia: Oh, that's too bad.
Lon'qu: Olivia? Have you been watching me?
Olivia: Oh, sorry. I hope I wasn't intruding. It's just that Khan Basilio used to practice the same move.
Lon'qu: It is a trick that I have yet to master. But one day I shall! When Basilio slices the water jar open, not a drop is spilled.
Olivia: I know! It's crazy, huh? Somehow, he slices through it so cleanly that the flask doesn't shatter.
Lon'qu: I have power, accuracy, speed... What am I lacking?
Olivia: Not that I'm an expert, but I don't think power has anything to do with it. When Basilio does it, he barely even swings his blade.

And Walhart turned this guy to his knees to the point that Basilio had to play dead. It was even said that Gregor is the only man that could ever match Basilio's power. Of course, due to how Awakening's gameplay is rather broken due to the second class system, we don't have much gameplay evidence to prove it, so we can only rely on support and story dialogue. 

Yen'fay is the only man that could fight Walhart and survive like Basilio had managed to. However, Yen'fay never fought us seriously, as he wanted us to kill him. Chrom never notices it, but this is because he doesn't truly understand how strong Yen'fay was, but Say'ri did, so when she defeats him, she mentions that he was much stronger than that. 

I will admit that when it comes to Tellius, they in fact have the advantage of having much more variety in their military forces because of the laguz, while the others do not have as much, as the other species in the other titles are rather extinct.

-----

@Interdimensional Observer We should actually also put into analysis of the strength of certain individuals based on dialogue, supports, and story achievements.

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1. Jugdral

2. Ylisse/Valm

3. Tellius

4. Elibe

5. Fateslandia

6. Archanea

7. Valentia 

8. Magvel

I mostly agree with your list, but I'd put Ylisse/Valm over Tellius just because of how large of an army Walhart has.

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23 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except it wasn't JUST his kids that suffered or his wife. Lewyn abandoned his ENTIRE kingdom. His people also suffered because of that. Lewyn was supposed to be king, but he abandoned that despite how he declared that he would take responsibility and become king. Yes, what Forseti did resulted in saving many people, but he has also caused many people to suffer because of his own actions as well. 

 

Did he abandon his kingdom right away though? From what I know of Genealogy, it seems Lewyn could continue being a normal guy for the most part right after the resurrection, Fee might not have been conceived until after the resurrection (hard to imagine Forseti getting aroused). As the years progress, Forseti takes more and more control. Lewyn probably informed his beloved mother and wife of what happened and they prepared the realm for it.

Silesse itself could likely only do so much post-Behalla in the short term. The Massacre killed Sigurd's forces, which I think were mostly Silessean. Against Grannvale, well that they managed to keep the far north free was better than what anywhere else could do. Could Silesse have mounted an offensive with Issach and joined in the Liberation Army? Probably- buttttt no sirree, no going back to Silesse for Gen 2, FE4 is out to show you the world!

 

20 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

@Interdimensional Observer We should actually also put into analysis of the strength of certain individuals based on dialogue, supports, and story achievements.

Very true. Here are some rough musings of mine on this front.

Archanea:

Camus is definitely a master warrior. Medeus's distrust of him is the only thing that keeps us from seeing more of it. He more or less singlehandedly survives an onslaught to whisk Nyna away. He is also, but we don't see it so much because of the Medeus distrust, happens to be a master commander.

Michalis is able to command respect from his people, and he is supposed to be stronger than Minerva, but we never get to see much of him in SD because of the game's antiquated formula of keeping you from seeing anyone of importance until the fight you kill them except for Gharnef.

Hardin is weaker than Marth in every way, but still he is supposed to be very talented as a general and warrior and managed to hold out for a few years all alone against all odds until Marth showed up to relieve him. We don't know much of how he was as King/Emperor and he got possessed in less than a year's time.

Minerva is supposed to be very strong, but weaker than Michalis, yet strong enough to earn Hardin's respect.

Gotoh is the strongest practitioner of magic in Archanea, he can fight well, but his talents off the battlefield, like warping Marth's elites all the way from Macedon to Thabes are more impressive.

Tiki, she is strong, although Mar Mar won't let her unleash all her power- he loves her too much to potentially let that happen since it'd likely destroy any chance of her returning to normal.

Xane, oh the espionage he could do with the transforming!

Jugdral:

Sigurd seems to be a master warrior, Crusader power in B Major helps, and he managed to conquer Verdane and Agustria with limited resources since most of Grannvale's assets were tied up in Issach.

Seliph made do with a ragtag liberation army and managed to reclaim over half the continent without any issues.

Quan apparently has been successfully thwarting Travant's ambitions for years, until one day....

 

Tellius:

Spoiler

Camus's spiritual sable successor in Tellius Zelgius is likely comparable to him. We see his combat prowess both as himself and as the BK, and Part 3 shows him as a brilliant commander, even if his victories are owed more to Laguz Alliance weakness (Skrimir's excitability and Naesala's betrayal). He is weaker than Ike, but could block a blow from Tibarn and still firmly stand, indicating he should be roughly Tibarn's equal. Has the love of his soldiers when Zelgius.

Tibarn should be stronger, but not as cunning as Naesala, and both should be comparable to Caineghis, whose perfect equal is Giffca, and likely Nailah. Dheg should be stronger than his fellow Royals. He also has his amazing eyes and ears in Janaff and Ulki besides him- they can detect anything the Beasts can't smell together.

Elincia isn't one who loves war, but she does show enough wisdom in RD to actually command an army if needed, probably not that much, but she can learn. Renning was so strong, he can survive three-four years of being drugged and still with some help recover from it a normal person. He was drugged in the first place because he was such a good warrior that Ashnard wanted him badly.

Geoffrey apparently never won a match against Renning, but he has improved since he saw Renning those 3-4 years ago.

Lucia seems capable of intel work at least. Bastian is supposed to be a master in this field as well. And Naesala to speak of him again apparently had a spy network in Begnion that was able to document all of the Begnion abuses in the Daein occupation. Are these the intelligence officers of Tellius?

Micaiah, for a fortune teller with no formal military experience, she's surprisingly good. Miraculous powers a lot when they kick in, but even without them she'll struggle and put up a good fight. She's too fragile to be a frontline warrior I'd say however. Wins the hearts of all from Daein.

Sothe is a decent bodyguard, but he knows he isn't that strong compared to the big guns of Tellius.

Tauroneo raised in a military family, he managed to earn the rank Steadfast Rider due to his abilities, and his valor and wisdom is respected enough that he became Pelleas's closest non-Izuka aide and then likely loans that support to Micaiah.

Ike, a god warrior, the end. More seriously, Ike is stronger than Zelgius, if only by so much, which should make him equal to or perhaps even stronger than a Laguz Royal, barring Dheginsea perhaps. And he does a good job of learning on the job to be a commander, like Micaiah, even when you factor out all the help Soren and Titania provide. Not as beloved as Micaiah by the troops he commands it seems, but he is still widely respected by both Laguz and Beorc.

Soren- one of the two best tacticians in all of FE. There is no denying this. (Many would make him the silver medalist to a sweet bird. But the admiration I have for Soren means he's gold in my heart if not in truth, and hey silver isn't that bad.) His notable feats are the victories of 3-1 and 3-3, the latter involving a brilliant fourfold use of masses, elite Beasts, Hawks for transportation, and mercenary special ops, although this second victory didn't do that much damage actually- but it did force the Central Army to retreat a good deal. 3-4 would have been a victory, but Skrimir ruined it for Soren.

Titania and Ranulf- both aren't master tacticians or godly warriors, but capable second-in-commands with some ability in both. Ranulf does survive Zelgius twice, but he's almost dead both times for it.

Skrimir- not much of a strategist, if a beast on the battlefield who gets trounced by Zelgius and nearly killed for it. But he does massively improve on the wisdom/self-control front over Parts 3 and 4.

Sephiran is fragile, but blessed, intelligent, and packed with magical powers- the most in Tellius not a goddess.

Tormod's Laguz Emancipation "Army", more a guerrilla force, has a little talent. 

Sanaki is surprisingly strong at magic, but we never see her command forces. Her abilities are more potential than displayed.

Haar is the confidant of Shiharam and Jill is Shiharam's daughter. Shiharam is highly respected, mostly for his moral choice to abandon a corrupt Begnion, but he mustn't have been a weakling in battle either, he certainly won the hearts of his men, which is important.

Stefan has the blood of Soane the hero and comes with the best sword, Astra and great stats in both games. A good warrior.

Ashnard is a monster in battle, no doubts about this. Likely weaker than Zelgius, but Tanith says he singlehandedly won a border dispute. He managed to earn the loyalty of many who liked his meritocratic reforms.

For Robin, their named major stratagems are the fake emblem ploy, the Long Sea of flaming ships (who are they, Zhou Yu?), and the withdrawal to the lava place to survive Walhart's assault and coincidentally (I don't think they really had any intentions of doing it) kill Yen'fay. Their weak plan was the Emm rescue- which was halted by themselves, in a way.

 

20 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I will admit that when it comes to Tellius, they in fact have the advantage of having much more variety in their military forces because of the laguz, while the others do not have as much, as the other species in the other titles are rather extinct.

The price Tellius pays is having fewer human countries, even though Begnion is made out to be a superpower and Laguz, despite their smaller numbers, are stronger than Beorc. I could see Begnion by itself tackling Lycia and Etruria or Bern, but I think it'd need help fighting all three.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Did he abandon his kingdom right away though? From what I know of Genealogy, it seems Lewyn could continue being a normal guy for the most part right after the resurrection, Fee might not have been conceived until after the resurrection (hard to imagine Forseti getting aroused). As the years progress, Forseti takes more and more control. Lewyn probably informed his beloved mother and wife of what happened and they prepared the realm for it.

Silesse itself could likely only do so much post-Behalla in the short term. The Massacre killed Sigurd's forces, which I think were mostly Silessean. Against Grannvale, well that they managed to keep the far north free was better than what anywhere else could do. Could Silesse have mounted an offensive with Issach and joined in the Liberation Army? Probably- buttttt no sirree, no going back to Silesse for Gen 2, FE4 is out to show you the world!

It probably wasn't actually fully possession in Forseti's case, but Forseti's passion for humans grew stronger more and more as the years went by, and that mixed into Lewyn's personality. However, it is unknown if Lewyn ended up even ruling as king of his nation or if he ended up ceding the throne as well. Actually, there might not even be a throne since in the end, Grannvale invaded and took control of that nation. So Lewyn no longer had a kingdom to rule, but if he was alive, it was still in the end of him abandoning the nation and allowing his mother, the queen, die. 

I believe Kaga had some notes that are on Serenes. 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Camus is definitely a master warrior. Medeus's distrust of him is the only thing that keeps us from seeing more of it. He more or less singlehandedly survives an onslaught to whisk Nyna away. He is also, but we don't see it so much because of the Medeus distrust, happens to be a master commander.

It's actually far more than that in fact. 

Camus is the leader of the Sable Order, who are known to be one of the most feared group of knights in the entire continent. Camus himself was by far the strongest, and wielded one of the Three Regalia known as Gradivus, the lance that pierces stone. Also, the Sable Order's Japanese name is called the Black Knights. So Zelgius is far from the original black knight. This name change is because FE1/FE3 never came out on west and Zelgius as the Black Knight came to the west first, so when the remake came out, they were renamed. 

The distrust in Camus from Medeus was because Camus refused to hand over Nyna to Medeus, which angered him. In the end, Medeus sent an entire battalion and the Fire Manakete, Bulzark in an extra chapter in New Mystery of the Emblem. Camus left with three of his loyal Sable Knights to help lead Nyna to Hardin. Here's what is said not just about Camus, but the Sable Knights by Bulzark:

Quote

Bulzark: 
You! Don't lower your guard. Our enemies may be few in number, but they're the elite of Grust's Sable Order. Moreover, Camus the Sable is equipped with the legendary spear, Gradivus. I will march forward as soon as my unit is ready, but you lot march on ahead and pursue the enemy! If things go well, you might be able to capture Nyna, who's slower for being on foot.

There are literally only 4 knights and a princess and Bulzark has an entire battalion, yet Bulzark warns everyone to be cautious. This is a major hint at how the Sable Knights are, especially Camus. Camus' fame really follows through as well:

Quote

Bulzark: 
Hey! Have we captured them yet?

Soldier: 
It'd be a hard battle, sir. The soldiers are afraid because Camus is monstrously strong; he's like a demon on the warpath.

Bulzark: 
Then I'll take him on myself! Order the entire army to attack! Send a message to the bandits! Tell them there's a reward in gold for whoever captures Camus and his motley crew!

So Camus' might is so great that even the other soldiers are fearful of that strength and consider him a demon. And the final testament of Camus' strength is right at the end of this chapter if you manage to defeat Bulzark, which I believe Camus canonically does so since Bulzark never appears again.

Quote

Medeus: 
Camus... Your prowess is just what I'd expect from the Sable Knight, pride of Grust.

Camus: 
Gah! Medeus...!

Medeus: 
Be proud, Camus. Your exploits forced my hand, and had me come here personally. You have annihilated an entire batallion by yourself, and even killed Bulzark. I must take care of you myself... You know, the last one who gave me this feeling was that troublesome Anri. However, your end has come. Your sword is broken and your spear lost. Even you cannot fight bare-handed.

So yeah, Medeus himself, the Earth Dragon that can wipe out an entire army, steps in to speak to Camus that reached his limit. Camus won. He defeated an entire battalion and killed Bulzark all by himself, to the point that even Medeus is not above praising Camus and likening him to even Anri, who's strength is already recoded to be legendary. 

I would actually say that Camus' strength actually rivals that of Greil in his prime, meaning that Camus can actually fight RD Ike head on.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Michalis is able to command respect from his people, and he is supposed to be stronger than Minerva, but we never get to see much of him in SD because of the game's antiquated formula of keeping you from seeing anyone of importance until the fight you kill them except for Gharnef.

Michalis is hailed to be a very strong individual, and yes, stronger than his sister Minerva. He was even hailed as the second coming of Iote, a legendary figure in history that learned how to tame wyverns and ride them in Archanea. When it comes to ambitions, Michalis is second to none, and he isn't driven insane like Gharnef and is human unlike Medeus. He fully believes that Macedon should rule the entire continent. 

In New Mystery, Rucke is a former knight that was exiled by Minerva after she took over. He rebelled against her and captured her. In comes Michalis, and Rucke is absolutely terrified. Michalis casually threatens to shove his spear through Rucke if he didn't do as told. This level of being able to strike fear just like that actually shows how famous Michalis' might is for those that knows of him, especially in Macedon. 

There wasn't a grand showing of his power, but one thing to note impressively is that Michalis actually fought Gharnef's spirit and somehow actually took the Starlight tome from his possession. This is despite how Gharnef had Imhullu, a terrifyingly dangerous magic that prevents anyone that doesn't have Starlight from touching him. Michalis fought that Gharnef with Imhullu and managed to take the Starlight spell from him. He was fatally wounded, but he still managed to get it to Minerva and Marth. And depending on situation, Michalis still survives his injuries. The man's will is really powerful if he was able to cling to life twice through the fatal injuries long enough to be treated.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Minerva is supposed to be very strong, but weaker than Michalis, yet strong enough to earn Hardin's respect.

She is titled the Red Dragoon, and in Shadow Dragon/New Mystery, she was even given a personal weapon of her own, the Hauteclere, an axe so powerful, it rivals the Three Regalia. Minerva actually was once a Pegasus Knight, but for the desire to be stronger to protect her loved ones, she become a Wyvern Rider instead. She is also the founder of the Whitewings, the only Pegasus Knights in Macedon, who are famous for their Triangle Attack, something that is still regarded as the ultimate attack in legends that stories still continue even till Awakening. 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Gotoh is the strongest practitioner of magic in Archanea, he can fight well, but his talents off the battlefield, like warping Marth's elites all the way from Macedon to Thabes are more impressive.

You also forgot to mention how his magical knowledge is second to none. Gharnef had Imhullu, but Gotoh knew exactly how to beat it, and only needed the Starsphere and Lightsphere. Together, he created Starlight just like that. He is the one that ultimately founded Khadein to teach magic to humans. Which is why Gotoh would be a very effective counter towards Fates' Dragon Veins. With his knowledge and with the Geosphere, he could potentially create a magic that rivals, if not surpasses the Dragon Veins. Or perhaps even learn to seal it.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tiki, she is strong, although Mar Mar won't let her unleash all her power- he loves her too much to potentially let that happen since it'd likely destroy any chance of her returning to normal.

It isn't that Marth told her not to use her power. It was more like Tiki was for one thing, too young and immature to fully use her powers, and two, her powers itself are too great that the Shield of Seals needed to be completed, or else Tiki would degenerate. Naga wanted to kill Tiki because she feared that Tiki degenerating would end up destroying with her destroying the entire human race. And this is a threat that was only matched with the Awakening of all the Earth Dragons.

Even in Awakening, there's implications that Tiki, despite now being fully mature, still cannot use her full powers because most of it has in fact been sealed away and only through a ritual can she unlock them. But it really says something that if in Future Past, Tiki can simply take Naga's place and help perform the Awakening, it seems to imply that Tiki's power matches Naga's own, if not outright surpass it. 

2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You don't have to be so modest about Soren's tactical prowess. The epilogue hails him unparalleled so I'd rank him number one due to it being fact. Who were you thinking was second? 

Though his tactical genius was unmatched, Soren never used his talents from anyone but Ike.

 

Robin. He's the better tactician. DLC Einherjar or not, Robin still outwitted and defeated Soren in tactics in Awakening. 

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Robin. He's the better tactician. DLC Einherjar or not, Robin still outwitted and defeated Soren in tactics in Awakening. 

I meant in Tellius. I agree Robin is better, his whole character is about tactics even more so than Soren. I'd have probably agreed even before that last line of information. I didn't realize he said all of FE. I'll have to delete that post. 

Edited by Icelerate
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Villains/Gods pretty much determine the final outcome as their raw power is insurmountably greater than that of normal human and non-god characters. So if I had to rank the most powerful individuals from each game this is how I would do it:

1. HOF Anankos - Specifically Anankos from the Heirs of Fate DLC because he's not the same Anankos as the one Corrin and his army faces. Reality warping, and multi-world destroying powers.

2. Ashunera - Normally I would be more skeptical of whether she has the power to take down the others mentioned on this list, but this isn't comicbook writing so I imagine we can just use her Life Creation powers and world flooding powers as a sign that she is at that nigh-world destroying power level (not planet-busting or anything like that though). It's not like we're going to see combat feats of her against anyone else on this list.

3. Naga / Grima / Loptyr - Grima is a world destroyer, and Naga while not having any such equivalent feats is highly suggested to be somewhat equal to Grima. Loptyr is also by comparison a near equal to Naga as he was one of the earth dragons that didn't degenerate.

4. Duma and Mila - Not as powerful as Naga and Grima, but in the same class of beings. 

5. Medeus/Idunn/Anankos - A Manakete later turned into the Shadow Dragon. Like the equivalent of Tiki. Idunn also has an army of dragons like Medeus, but other than that nothing special lore wise, and (regular) Anankos has an army of dead soldiers similar in power to the others here.

If I had to rank all the armies and forces themselves, and leave out the villains then I would go like this:

1. Tellius - Laguz make hell of a difference, and humans from most of the other worlds are not trained and fitted to fight against so many of them. Not to mention the Beorc armies and militias are very powerful.

2. Jugdral - A lot of Holy Blood some of which descends from Naga and Loptyr, and makes very formidable knights, and mages. Plus the vast number of powerful armies and militia forces.

3. Elibe - Due to many powerful and discrete forces. Plus very powerful mages such as Athos and Nergal are game changers.

As for the rest I'm not too sure, but Valentia has to be one of the worst. Manaketes and Taguel do play a role, but we don't know how effective they are or how many of them there are tbh especially how many of them are good at combat.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Villains/Gods pretty much determine the final outcome as their raw power is insurmountably greater than that of normal human and non-god characters. So if I had to rank the most powerful individuals from each game this is how I would do it:

1. HOF Anankos - Specifically Anankos from the Heirs of Fate DLC because he's not the same Anankos as the one Corrin and his army faces. Reality warping, and multi-world destroying powers.

2. Ashunera - Normally I would be more skeptical of whether she has the power to take down the others mentioned on this list, but this isn't comicbook writing so I imagine we can just use her Life Creation powers and world flooding powers as a sign that she is at that nigh-world destroying power level (not planet-busting or anything like that though). It's not like we're going to see combat feats of her against anyone else on this list.

3. Naga / Grima / Loptyr - Grima is a world destroyer, and Naga while not having any such equivalent feats is highly suggested to be somewhat equal to Grima. Loptyr is also by comparison a near equal to Naga as he was one of the earth dragons that didn't degenerate.

4. Duma and Mila - Not as powerful as Naga and Grima, but in the same class of beings. 

5. Medeus/Idunn/Anankos - A Manakete later turned into the Shadow Dragon. Like the equivalent of Tiki. Idunn also has an army of dragons like Medeus, but other than that nothing special lore wise, and (regular) Anankos has an army of dead soldiers similar in power to the others here.

If I had to rank all the armies and forces themselves, and leave out the villains then I would go like this:

1. Tellius - Laguz make hell of a difference, and humans from most of the other worlds are not trained and fitted to fight against so many of them. Not to mention the Beorc armies and militias are very powerful.

2. Jugdral - A lot of Holy Blood some of which descends from Naga and Loptyr, and makes very formidable knights, and mages. Plus the vast number of powerful armies and militia forces.

3. Elibe - Due to many powerful and discrete forces. Plus very powerful mages such as Athos and Nergal are game changers.

As for the rest I'm not too sure, but Valentia has to be one of the worst. Manaketes and Taguel do play a role, but we don't know how effective they are or how many of them there are tbh especially how many of them are good at combat.

Yeah, the topic of gods/villains used is just unlikely and don't work. 

Plus, I have many reasons to just refute several of the stuff, but that would go against the overall topic by this point.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, the topic of gods/villains used is just unlikely and don't work. 

Plus, I have many reasons to just refute several of the stuff, but that would go against the overall topic by this point.

Don't work how? Unless my post was unrelated to the topic, I think any reply directly to it would still be relevant as long as it addresses directly what I discussed.

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3 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Don't work how? Unless my post was unrelated to the topic, I think any reply directly to it would still be relevant as long as it addresses directly what I discussed.

This is due to how I argued against Anankos being stronger than either Naga and Grima, which led to a long heated debate. 

Ultimately, @Interdimensional Observer said this:

Quote

I really shouldn't have opened the door for the possibility of letting villains in. Since the Archanean dragon stuff being brought up is I think partly owed to the fact that if Medeus helped Archanea, he'd bring the ferals with him.

And perhaps this dragon discussion is a little meaningless. By that I mean does it really matter how strong the dragons are vis a vis each other? The Goldoans can wipe out a continent, the Archaneans can wipe out a continent. The difference is between an arsenal of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles with 3 nuclear warheads and an arsenal with 7 nuclear warheads. Either way, the ICBMs will reduce everything to ruin, one will let a half a ruined wall stand, the other will reduce said half of wall to ashes. But I guess this might matter in a intercontinental war of supremacy where all sides are willing to go all the way to be lord of the cockroaches when everything is said and done.

Ultimately, it just leads to most final villains just ultimately laying waste to the entire continent, and it became a discussion less about the strongest continent that looks at the characters, military force, terrain, and such, and more about which god/dragon is stronger.

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is due to how I argued against Anankos being stronger than either Naga and Grima, which led to a long heated debate. 

Ultimately, @Interdimensional Observer said this:

Ultimately, it just leads to most final villains just ultimately laying waste to the entire continent, and it became a discussion less about the strongest continent that looks at the characters, military force, terrain, and such, and more about which god/dragon is stronger.

Well I mean it's true it does become a debate about which god is stronger in the end like I said. The opening post isn't edited either to specify not to include villains so I didn't know this was unwanted. So I guess that's why we're here lol. Also nothing wrong with debating who's stronger either this is what this section of the forums is for. I like to split Anankos into two versions actually because main story Anankos is clearly not DLC Anankos, and does not have his feats either. DLC Anankos imo is vastly more powerful than the other final bosses.

Edit: Not specified to not include villains at all I meant.

Edited by Ae†her
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2 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Well I mean it's true it does become a debate about which god is stronger in the end like I said. The opening post isn't edited either to specify not to include villains so I didn't know this was unwanted. So I guess that's why we're here lol. Also nothing wrong with debating who's stronger either this is what this section of the forums is for. I like to split Anankos into two versions actually because main story Anankos is clearly not DLC Anankos, and does not have his feats either. DLC Anankos imo is vastly more powerful than the other final bosses.

Edit: Not specified to not include villains at all I meant.

While it is true that Heirs of Fate Anankos is stronger, I still do not feel that he has become stronger than entities like Naga and Grima, or at the very least Naga. 

However, I definitely don't think he's surpassed Ashunera in any way. Even though I'm not as big of a fan of the Tellius series as others, Ashunera is an entity that we don't fight, and for good reason. Ashunera in a mere moment of frantic emotional distress ended up causing a flood that wiped out the other continents save for Tellius. This was just because of how she just wanted the fighting to stop, but her powers were too great. 

As Yune said, gods aren't perfect. They just make grander mistakes that far surpasses the likes of mortals. Even Ashera, who only embodies half of Ashunera's powers, performed incredible feat by petrifying virtually the entire continent the moment she awakened. And this is despite how Ashera is likely weakened from having been asleep for so long. But even then, she gave some blessings to mere recruits that allowed them to fight on par with skilled fighters like Ike and the others. And she even revealed that she can revive the dead, though to a limited degree. It is also impossible to even defeat Ashera without Yune, as Yune gave Ike all of her chaos powers to allow Ike to defeat Ashera, and even that didn't kill her, merely put her to sleep and merge back with Yune. 

So Ashunera, that has her full powers that allows her to fully and wholly create life, may in fact have the power to fully end life in the blink of an eye. But she doesn't as she is too benevolent and loves the life that exists because it saved her from her own solitude.

As for why I think Naga is superior, by Awakening, Naga takes a spiritual form. She is clearly limited in her powers to interact with the physical plane, but even then, she was able to perform time travel and send in the Awakening child back in time, and another Naga went and moved Chrom's army to move to another world's future. As Anankos said to the Awakening trio when he gave them the space-time stone, that he cannot violate the taboo of space-time more than he already has. 

Now for a god like entity like him, this implies that there is genuine consequences in doing this, and thus shouldn't be messed with. But Anankos says that he is in awe that Naga is able to perform such a feat of what she did in Awakening and Future Past with little to no consequences at all. 

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