Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Lord_Brand]

Fun fact: In Japan, Ultimate is called "Super Smash Bros. Special".

I can't help but to wonder: What's next? They aren't just going to let a cash cow franchise like Smash die, but what direction will the next game take? What will its roster look like? Maybe next time I'll finally, finally be able to play Krystal and Shantae properly? Maybe along with at least a handful of the dozens of characters I'd be interested in taking for a spin?

All the same, Sora does feel like a good way to send off this game. I feel a little sad that some of my top requests still aren't playable, but Sora really was the best possible way to send it all off. Emotional, beautiful...Simple and Clean.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I suspect someone on Squire Enix sat Sakurai down and shared that blackmail material they had on Disney that allows them to get away with Kingdom hearts. Its the only way Disney could have agreed to both Sora, and the Mikey logo.

Or Nintendo, a reputable company that has used their IPs in the past with  no issue, offered them essentially free money given the low risk involved for them (I'd say they could have got Mickey Donald and Goofy too, but Disney played hardball and wanted more money for their own origial creations).

[Etrurian emperor]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Or Nintendo, a reputable company that has used their IPs in the past with  no issue, offered them essentially free money given the low risk involved for them (I'd say they could have got Mickey Donald and Goofy too, but Disney played hardball and wanted more money for their own origial creations).

I'm not sure Disney cares if a company is reputable or not. After all their prefered choice for Star Wars was EA. Their general mentality towards games can be described as indifferent at best even if this is fiscally that's very silly these days. 

Though for the most part I'm fine with Donald and Goofy not being there. Especially Donald who's just the worst. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure Disney cares if a company is reputable or not. After all their prefered choice for Star Wars was EA. Their general mentality towards games can be described as indifferent at best even if this is fiscally that's very silly these days. 

Though for the most part I'm fine with Donald and Goofy not being there. Especially Donald who's just the worst. 

Well that's almost part of my point. From Disney's perspective what do they have to lose? They're getting free money out of it at basically no risk to their own brand. I know they're protective of their copyrights, but they still do sell it out. Let's not forget that they agreed to, and keep on making, Kingdom Hearts games to begin with. Sora in Smash is way less strange than Sora's existence to begin with.

[Lightchao42]

Breathtaking, isn't it?

I for one am glad that Sora doesn't come with any non-KH original Disney content. Smash is a commemoration of the gaming industry so having Donald and Goofy show up would just be... weird. I'm sure Sakurai's adversity to non-video game characters is one of the reasons for that, we have enough people asking for Goku already.

Now that we have every character, I wonder why Koei Tecmo got basically nothing. Sure, they got an Assist Trophy and some spirits, but all that content was shared with other developers, there's no Warriors or Ninja Gaiden or anything. They didn't even get any Mii costumes for crying out loud. Considering how expansive Ultimate's content became it's strange that one of Nintendo's most consistent partners got nothing of their own.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Lightchao42

[Interdimensional Observer]

18 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

Now that we have every character, I wonder why Koei Tecmo got basically nothing. Sure, they got an Assist Trophy and some spirits, but all that content was shared with other developers, there's no Warriors or Ninja Gaiden or anything. They didn't even get any Mii costumes for crying out loud. Considering how expansive Ultimate's content became it's strange that one of Nintendo's most consistent partners got nothing of their own.

Someone once said to me Namco, now the co-developers of Smash, don't get along with Koei Tecmo.

That said, while I'm not fond of Ryu Hayabusa (who would have to be called RyuHa to keep him from being confused with RyuSF), I wouldn't be opposed to him. And for Warriors, Zhao Yun would be the first person to come to mind, he would finally be a spear user in Smash, I really like that, even if character-wise Cao Cao and Nobunaga would interest me more (and please limit Lu Bu to a Spirit or boss, the man is overrated and bark over bite). Zhao Yun could even come with Sanada Yukimura as an Echo Fighter.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think most people treat "ultimate" as just another advertising adjective,  they don't seriously think on it formal meaning "final" or from the Latin origins which translate as "to come to an end".

Starting fresh would be nice, and Smash's roster has gotten unwieldy with so many characters. And yet, Pokemon has continued on, despite its own nods of concern towards competitive play and its bloated numbers. The key difference, is licensing. Smash has to renegotiate old ones and bargain for new ones. Keeping it Nintendo All Stars with a side dish of third parties stopped working soon after Brawl opened the door and was it worth opening?.

Even as an advertising objective, it carries weight; what would you call a game that came after a game called Ultimate that tried to basically be the previous game with even more stuff? Ultimate Supreme? Even More Ultimate? This Time Definitely Ultimate?

Starting fresh would enable them to cut characters, yes, but it would also give them enough cover to be able to rework characters without upsetting people. For instance, it could mean we could finally have Ganondorf actually fight like Ganondorf.

 

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Fun fact: In Japan, Ultimate is called "Super Smash Bros. Special".

I can't help but to wonder: What's next? They aren't just going to let a cash cow franchise like Smash die, but what direction will the next game take? What will its roster look like? Maybe next time I'll finally, finally be able to play Krystal and Shantae properly? Maybe along with at least a handful of the dozens of characters I'd be interested in taking for a spin?

Huh. I did not know that. That's even more reason that they can't really keep doing, "now with more fighters" after Ultimate.

I suspect that its roster will probably be significantly smaller than Ultimate's. Either Sakurai or someone else who is part of the series' dev team (I can't remember who exactly it was) said that each new character doesn't add work, but instead multiplies the work. As for being able to play as Krystal, I doubt it unless Nintendo makes a new Star Fox game that includes her. 

[Lord_Brand]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Starting fresh would be nice, and Smash's roster has gotten unwieldy with so many characters. And yet, Pokemon has continued on, despite its own nods of concern towards competitive play and its bloated numbers. The key difference, is licensing. Smash has to renegotiate old ones and bargain for new ones. Keeping it Nintendo All Stars with a side dish of third parties stopped working soon after Brawl opened the door and was it worth opening?.

Except, if you cut all those third party fighters, the disappointment will be resounding, especially since there are still a lot of third party fighters fans have been wanting to play since Brawl (need I list them?) who missed the boat yet again in Ultimate (and no, Mii Costumes are absolutely not the same thing and will never be anywhere close enough).

Considering that allowing third party fighters into Smash allowed us the joy of seeing Mega Man and Banjo & Kazooie again, I'd say most definitely.

37 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I suspect that its roster will probably be significantly smaller than Ultimate's. Either Sakurai or someone else who is part of the series' dev team (I can't remember who exactly it was) said that each new character doesn't add work, but instead multiplies the work. As for being able to play as Krystal, I doubt it unless Nintendo makes a new Star Fox game that includes her. 

Well, King K. Rool came back despite having spent a decade on the bench. And Krystal at least made Assist Trophy, which means she's still on Nintendo's minds. There is demand for her just as there was for K. Rool. When Star Fox Zero came out, lots of fans were asking "Where's Krystal?"

So, when a Smash 6 does happen, I feel fairly confident that Krystal will be a top contender for new base roster addition. I could even handle her just being a Fox Echo, though with any luck Fox's moveset in Smash 6 will include Krystal's staff, thereby allowing Krystal to both use her staff and be a Fox Echo.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Zapp Branniglenn]

35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh. I did not know that. That's even more reason that they can't really keep doing, "now with more fighters" after Ultimate.

I'm pretty sure the point being made there is that the name has no significance on what the game is. When anybody rants about how this is supposed to be the "ultimate" smash bros, the japanese developers would be lost on what we're talking about. The only Smash that has shared a name between regions are the two versions of Smash 4. And Smash 4's real name is awful!

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I'm pretty sure the point being made there is that the name has no significance on what the game is. When anybody rants about how this is supposed to be the "ultimate" smash bros, the japanese developers would be lost on what we're talking about. The only Smash that has shared a name between regions are the two versions of Smash 4. And Smash 4's real name is awful!

I'm pretty sure the person just said it as an interesting fact without a point, given how they phrased the statement. But I can't speak for lord_brand, so I'll ask him:

@Lord_Brand When you pointed out the Japanese title for Smash Bros. Ultimate, were you making a point, or just pointing it out as a fun fact?

 

21 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Well, King K. Rool came back despite having spent a decade on the bench. And Krystal at least made Assist Trophy, which means she's still on Nintendo's minds. There is demand for her just as there was for K. Rool. When Star Fox Zero came out, lots of fans were asking "Where's Krystal?"

So, when a Smash 6 does happen, I feel fairly confident that Krystal will be a top contender for new base roster addition. I could even handle her just being a Fox Echo, though with any luck Fox's moveset in Smash 6 will include Krystal's staff, thereby allowing Krystal to both use her staff and be a Fox Echo.

True, though one of the points of Ultimate was "everyone is here", and King K. Rool was one of those fighters that a lot of fans voted for to appear in 4 only to end up as a Mii Fighter costume instead.

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Except, if you cut all those third party fighters, the disappointment will be resounding, especially since there are still a lot of third party fighters fans have been wanting to play since Brawl (need I list them?) who missed the boat yet again in Ultimate (and no, Mii Costumes are absolutely not the same thing and will never be anywhere close enough).

Considering that allowing third party fighters into Smash allowed us the joy of seeing Mega Man and Banjo & Kazooie again, I'd say most definitely.

The strikethrough meant I didn't mean that very seriously.

It was by opening that door that new Smash fighters have become more contentious, and I'm likely exaggerating the weight of those legal strings imposed by having so many characters from so many companies. Things would be simpler if all the 3rd party stuff got expelled, and Smash would be a lot more chilled.

 

51 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Even as an advertising objective, it carries weight; what would you call a game that came after a game called Ultimate that tried to basically be the previous game with even more stuff? Ultimate Supreme? Even More Ultimate? This Time Definitely Ultimate?

Smash Ne De Plus Ultra- "Nothing Beyond This". 

52 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh. I did not know that. That's even more reason that they can't really keep doing, "now with more fighters" after Ultimate.

Not really, "Special" has no chronological weight to it the way "ultimate" does. Special if anything is a less dramatic word than ultimate. -Or so I see it.

54 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Starting fresh would enable them to cut characters, yes, but it would also give them enough cover to be able to rework characters without upsetting people. For instance, it could mean we could finally have Ganondorf actually fight like Ganondorf.

Cutting characters will lead to people screaming online and sending Sakurai death threats. Fact.

The great majority of would be players will still likely buy the game with cuts because it is Smash and they aren't overly discerning. Fact.

Which fact will reign supreme? No idea.

Although I would love to see Samus finally retooled to a ranged specialist flaunting her full collection of beams. Dark Samus can be de-Echoed and inherit Smash Samus's moveset, thus appeasing the few fans of it.

[Lord_Brand]

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm pretty sure the person just said it as an interesting fact without a point, given how they phrased the statement. But I can't speak for lord_brand, so I'll ask him:

@Lord_Brand When you pointed out the Japanese title for Smash Bros. Ultimate, were you making a point, or just pointing it out as a fun fact?

It was supposed to be a point that Ultimate is only called such in English, thereby indicating that it's not necessarily intended to be the last game in the series nor the greatest that will ever be.

16 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although I would love to see Samus finally retooled to a ranged specialist flaunting her full collection of beams.

I agree with this. At the very least, Samus could make use of directional shooting the way she does in her own games, and use the Charge Beam to deliver more powerful shots.

2 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

Now that we have every character, I wonder why Koei Tecmo got basically nothing.

Might have to do with their long-standing feud with Capcom. The two companies don't get along, and Capcom's fingerprints are all over Smash, so chances are KT wanted little to do with it. It is a pity Ryu Hayabusa was left out, he would have worked well as a fighter.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[ZeManaphy]

2 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

I wonder why Koei Tecmo got basically nothing.

Well, they did co-develop Three Houses, so you could argue Byleth is partially a Koei Techmo representative. 

[vanguard333]

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Smash Ne De Plus Ultra- "Nothing Beyond This". 

Not really, "Special" has no chronological weight to it the way "ultimate" does. Special if anything is a less dramatic word than ultimate. -Or so I see it.

Cutting characters will lead to people screaming online and sending Sakurai death threats. Fact.

The great majority of would be players will still likely buy the game with cuts because it is Smash and they aren't overly discerning. Fact.

Which fact will reign supreme? No idea.

Although I would love to see Samus finally retooled to a ranged specialist flaunting her full collection of beams. Dark Samus can be de-Echoed and inherit Smash Samus's moveset, thus appeasing the few fans of it.

And then how would you follow up from that?

I haven't once been talking about the chronological weight of the word "Ultimate"; another meaning of ultimate, and the one that people tend to use when saying the word "ultimate". is, "being the best or most extreme example of its kind". "Special" may not carry the chronological weight of "Ultimate", but it does carry a lot of the other weight of "ultimate".

I do not think that is necessarily a guarantee; as I said, starting fresh with a "relaunch" or "reboot" might be enough cover to avoid the death threats if they present it properly.

You're forgetting the group that is discerning but would look at the positives of a relaunch rather than the negatives.

Seeing Samus get a moveset overhaul would be interesting.

 

5 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

It was supposed to be a point that Ultimate is only called such in English, thereby indicating that it's not necessarily intended to be the last game in the series nor the greatest that will ever be.

I see. Thanks for answering.

I still think "special" does have that latter implication behind it; if not the greatest, then certainly an exemplar.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I still think "special" does have that latter implication behind it; if not the greatest, then certainly an exemplar.

Okay, but look at the japanese names for Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. DX,  X, and "For Wii U/3DS". Doesn't that sound progressively more mundane? Maybe to an english speaker, but to them they're just cool sounding foreign words. When they call Ultimate Special, they didn't declare this to be the last or fullest game. 

Didn't I make these same rants about the Japanese naming schemes in the past? Because I've seen a lot of people read too much into "Ultimate" as a title back when the game was revealed. Bringing back all the veterans and calling the game Ultimate overseas are pure coincidence - not a mission statement.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I...am really disappointed with Sora, honestly. Like I said before, I do not like Kingdom Hearts, not in any way, shape, or form. I just can't be excited for Sora. I am happy that his fans got him, though. That's really cool for them. And the DLC was very good overall, we got some really awesome additions to the game. Banjo-Kazooie is literally a dream come true.

As for the potential Smash 6, there is absolutely no way that the roster size will be any less than Brawl's size. That hypothetical roster will at minimum be as big as Brawl's roster. I wouldn't expect they'd be able to bring back everyone from Ultimate, especially some of the third-party characters, but a good number of them would likely be back. At the very least, bare minimum, I would expect these 40 characters all have a very high chance of returning, if not a guaranteed one:

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario
Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf
Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario Greninja, Incineroar
Donkey Kong, Diddy, Kong, King K. Rool
Kirby, King Dedede, Meta Knight
Samus, Ridley
Marth, Ike, Robin, Byleth
Villager, Isabelle
Shulk, Pyra/Mythra
Inkling
Fox
Olimar
Pit, Palutena
Min Min
Little Mac
Captain Falcon
Ness

That doesn't include any third-party characters, or Echo fighters. And those that are cut make way for some new characters, some of which are probably shoe-ins, like Waluigi (yes, I'm serious) and Crash Bandicoot (if they keep adding third-party characters).

[Lord_Brand]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I do not think that is necessarily a guarantee; as I said, starting fresh with a "relaunch" or "reboot" might be enough cover to avoid the death threats if they present it properly.

You're forgetting the group that is discerning but would look at the positives of a relaunch rather than the negatives.

If they're gonna cut a bunch of fighters next time, a major overhaul is the one good way to justify doing so. And even then, they should probably look at bringing a lot of the cut fighters back with overhauls of their own. For example, if you cut Sonic from the base roster, you can bring him back as part of Team Sonic, with Tails and Knuckles.

[Fates-Blade]

I called it, so Sora being added I understand but....... not AT LEAST A COSTUME for Ryu Hayabusa, a Tales series character OR a Falcom character......

That's a deadly sin. (Sigh) hackers time to get to work.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Fates-Blade

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

If they're gonna cut a bunch of fighters next time, a major overhaul is the one good way to justify doing so. And even then, they should probably look at bringing a lot of the cut fighters back with overhauls of their own. For example, if you cut Sonic from the base roster, you can bring him back as part of Team Sonic, with Tails and Knuckles.

I agree.

There are plenty of examples of overhauls they can make to justify cutting characters. I already mentioned Ganondorf, @Interdimensional Observer mentioned Samus. Sonic is definitely another good example. Another example I can think of would be Young Link being overhauled to utilize the transformation masks from Majora's Mask.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I do not think that is necessarily a guarantee; as I said, starting fresh with a "relaunch" or "reboot" might be enough cover to avoid the death threats if they present it properly.

I was looking at things from the perspective of Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors.

Koei Tecmo is wary of making cuts to the rosters of those games, because people have wanted them to grow without end. Yet, they realize if they if they want to freshen up the gameplay every so often to avoid total stagnancy, they have to overhaul a few things. The problem, is that when they attempt to change up the combat, they simply can't have 93 unique movesets at the time of release- as is the case in Dynasty Warriors presently. But, fans want everyone to have a unique moveset, no ~15-20 shared weapons that make everyone play the same.

That said, when Koei chose to reboot Samurai Warriors recently, they opted to slash the roster (albeit while adding a bunch of, mostly historically minor, new people). Call it laziness or whatever it was, they still didn't give everyone a unique moveset, not even amongst the more important characters. This resulted in fan complaints. And yet, Samurai Warriors 5 still sold well enough for Koei. And the backlash wasn't as big as that over old & infamous Dynasty Warriors 6 or the much more recent catastrophe that was Dynasty Warriors 9.

If Smash attempts to go chill with a little rebooting and roster curtailment, I expect Nintendo won't mess it up badly. They've the resources not to. Despite that, nothing will satisfy everyone. There will be those who will complain, ardent fans of Cloud (I consider his head one of the first third party characters on the hypothetical chopping block) who don't give a care about improvements at all if it means they lose their main. Thankfully, Nintendo will be able to brush them off, as the game will sell, Smash's name-brand recognition alone (which isn't a good thing in principle), assures that.

It is also the case that for the average fighting game, cuts and keeping the base roster around a certain size is perfectly normal after a point. But Smash is not a normal fighting game franchise, its fans might not see cuts as so normal, despite some a few now-undone ones having been made in the past.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Smash fans: is the last character going to be a cartoon mascot or an anime swordfighter?

 

Nintendo: yes.

[King Marth 64]

Since I definitely didn't want Sora, I'll might just take it since based on what Sakurai explained in the Fighter Ballot results. This is kinda my least favorite Super Smash Bros. reveal out of all of them. I do wanted Sakurai get some rest and relax with his hard work he had been through. I did voted Eight (eighth Dragon Quest Hero) for the 2nd Square Enix Franchise Rep during in the Fighter Ballot Poll when it was active back then before he got in as Eleven's Alt in Ultimate.

Also, I definitely noticed in the Mii Fighter Costumes Round 11 did have the least numbers in every Mii Fighter Costumes Trailers since 4 was the lowest ones for Round 2, 9, and 10 Trailers we knew before Round 11 was showcased. I definitely surprised that they didn't showed off any Kingdom Hearts Mii Fighter Costumes nor any single brand new Square Enix Mii Fighter Costumes.

I was kinda wondered about the lack of numbers in Mii Fighter Costumes could have been scrapped (if Sakurai didn't made a new Kingdom Hearts Mii Fighter Costume in the first place). What if that missing 4th Mii Fighter Costume was originally going to be Crash Bandicoot as a Mii Brawler Costume, but his costume got scrapped due to the Activision Blizzard lawsuit controversy went viral and Sakurai doesn't feel like showing off the Crash Bandicoot Mii Fighter Costume for avoiding the Anti-Activision Blizzard Community?

Edited October 7, 2021 by King Marth 64

[NegativeExponents-]

I don't really get the whole rebooting idea that's going around. What's the point? Cutting characters for the chance of a possible rework is a silly and drastic idea. There's nothing stopping the developers from currently altering Ganondorf or other characters moveset other than their own unwillingness to do so. You don't need a major characters cut for that. Unless they rework the core of the game to something that plays completely differently than what we have now, then I see no reason to not just work off of what they currently have, adding and removing characters as needed due to licensing or whatever.

Edited October 7, 2021 by NegativeExponents-

[Lightchao42]

As an aside to Sora, I'm glad Doomguy's Mii costume managed to sneak in at the last minute. Now he's finally united with his friend Isabelle! Sakurai even acknowledged how Doom can be played on basically anything with a screen. The Slayer's costume might be the first one I buy. It's a shame that he was the only full costume in this wave though (and Splatoon has plenty of Mii costumes already), I expected a bigger finish.

As for what will become of the development team now...

...they're going to start working on Tekken again, so we can infer that the next game won't happen for some time now.

2 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

I don't really get the whole rebooting idea that's going around. What's the point? Cutting characters for the chance of a possible rework is a silly and drastic idea. There's nothing stopping the developers from currently altering Ganondorf or other characters moveset other than their own unwillingness to do so. You don't need a major characters cut for that. Unless they rework the core of the game to something that plays completely differently than what we have now, then I see no reason to not just work off of what they currently have, adding and removing characters as needed due to licensing or whatever.

I think the idea is that plenty of characters are going to be removed no matter what, so they might as well change up the returning characters/gameplay to make the next game better stand out from Ultimate.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

As far as the Mii Fighter costumes go, I was disappointed to see two of them go to Splatoon. Sure, Octoling is fine, but the cat just seems... really? Not, say, a Mii Brawler Phoenix Wright or Crash Bandicoot? Especially following the last drop's star-studded "deconfirm" list. That said, Doomguy getting in as a Mii Fighter is very cool.

Sora is... not one of the characters I was hoping for, personally. That said, I recognize he holds a lot of value to fans of Kingdom Hearts. It's a series many of my friends grew up with, and I'm happy for them being recognized here. He looks to have a cool moveset with absolutely disgusting recovery. I'm fine with no Disney rep, but the music... I'm sure it's all great, but I was really hoping for some Utada vocal tracks to make it in.

As far as the "what's next", I see two bad futures. In the one, there is no more Smash. Smash Ultimate is the final game of the series, and the most we see going forward are ports/remasters. In the other, Smash becomes a mobile game. Buy orbs to pull for your favorite fighter! Spend extra for this purely cosmetic skin! Play it on the go, with touch controls!

The "safe bet" outcome, I think, is a Smash 6 that iterates on Ultimate, like 4 did on Brawl - some characters cut, more characters added. No Subspace Emissary, yes Smash Run/Tour. We won't get another "World of Light", probably - and the Spirits may stay, or else revert to trophies.

What I think I'd want to see, though, is something a bit more radical. Maybe construct a "Subspace Emissary on steroids" - a Metroidvania-like environment that links all the stages together, where you travel between each character's worlds to recruit new fighters, and which you can play co-op. Replace the one-time "Final Smash" attacks with "Smash Mode" boosts, powering up the fighter's attacks and attributes briefly (a la Wario-Man, or Giga Bowser), but followed by falling into a weaker state. Bring back some of the "custom movesets" introduced in Smash 4.