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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



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Paper Mario's Side B would be the koops shell toss, but just before he launches the shell, Kensuke Tanabe would appear and escort Koops off the stage, rendering the move useless. No original characters allowed.

Edited by Glennstavos

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On 9/2/2020 at 12:10 PM, Perkilator said:

There was...no kind of Event yesterday. Not a Spirit Event or a tourney.

I don't wanna get people's hopes up, but could CP7 be close to upon us?

Possibly, but with all the Mario hype right now, I doubt they’d announce/release another character until that dies down, unless it’s a Mario character. 😅 As someone who isn’t a big fan of Mario (and everyone I know hates me for it), I would love something like that to get me excited! 😁

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1 hour ago, Bk1234 said:

Possibly, but with all the Mario hype right now, I doubt they’d announce/release another character until that dies down, unless it’s a Mario character. 😅 As someone who isn’t a big fan of Mario (and everyone I know hates me for it), I would love something like that to get me excited! 😁

I made this the day before the Mario Direct.

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I'll admit, I was hoping for a Smash trailer during the Mario direct, but seeing as his series already has so many reps in the game, it'd be rather silly to dedicate a DLC slot to a Mario rep as well. I think most of us are pulling for Crash next. Crash joining Smash not only feels likely, it feels inevitable. Like it has to happen, you know? I mean, he's an iconic 90s platformer mascot, he's popular in Japan, he's made a big comeback in recent years, and he's got a new game coming out this month which will probably release on Switch by this time next year. All the elements are coming together. I can already picture the Warp Room theme kicking in as we see footage of Crash showing off his moves on the N. Sanity Isles stage.

And wouldn't it be a twist if Coco joined the battle as well? Shoot, now I'm picturing them as a tag team, using their D special to switch! They could be "pseudo-Echoes", having similar movesets but different skeleton rigs for animation, which should save time on building and balancing their individual movesets since the hitboxes are similar. The main differences between them would be in their specials, taunts, and win animations. Since their S Specials likely both involve riding an animal or vehicle, Coco could ride Pura while Crash rides a Warthog, Polar, Baby T., or Bike. At least one of Coco's taunts would have to involve taking a selfie. And I could see her cuddling Pura in one of her victory animations. But maybe Coco would be better saved for Smash 6, to follow up Crash's addition in SSBU.

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From Sakurai’s official twitter. Remind anyone of anything? Check out the cave above the buster sword, too.

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1 minute ago, Dai said:

From Sakurai’s official twitter. Remind anyone of anything? Check out the cave above the buster sword, too.

It reminds me of the fans drowning in despair at the lack of Nintendo directs.

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3 minutes ago, Florete said:

It reminds me of the fans drowning in despair at the lack of Nintendo directs.

Classy. In that case, I presume Cloud represents the emo fans despondent over the lack of directs and the heart represents their broken hearts?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Oh, people think it's a reference to the game over screen in Kingdom hearts? So It's not a reference to that scene in FF7?

Look at the heart in the picture's background.

Also, no. We're talking about KH1's opening.

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Sora would leave a bit of bad taste in my mouth, and make a Pyrex addition taste bad too. DQ Hero, Joker, Byleth, thats three typical JRPG (yes, FE counts, don't argue otherwise) protagonists so far in the DLC. With Sora, we'd be 4/13 Ultimate newcomers being that which is... not that bad. And DQ deserved its slot.

Nonetheless, I don't want overrepresentation of this genre I love. It's got a lot of dedicated fans who would rush to buy their favorites in Smash, and plenty of stuff to throw into a fighting game compared to say a platformer. But I still have a problem with too many JRPG characters. Although with Persona, DQ, and FF repped by someone, that limits the number of new other JRPG franchises left. Kingdom Hearts and Tales are the only other major franchises in "need" of reps, if we brush SMT to the side because Persona covers it (although the Demi-Fiend wouldn't be a sword user thankfully) that is.

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1 hour ago, Perkilator said:

Also, no. We're talking about KH1's opening.

No need to be so hostile, he wasn't sure, calm down.

Anyways, I agree with Interdimensional Observer on the stance with Sora.

Edited by lightcosmo

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5 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

No need to be so hostile, he wasn't sure, calm down.

Anyways, I agree with Interdimensional Observer on the stance with Sora.

I can only speak to myself, but I don't see any hostility there whatsoever.

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2 hours ago, Perkilator said:

Look at the heart in the picture's background.

Yeah a heart appears above a floating/drowning protagonist. Like in the game over screen of all those games. The fact that this shot takes place at a beach is also de-emphasized due to the way the camera works underwater in Smash.

Am I getting the answers wrong because I'm too detail-oriented?

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sora would leave a bit of bad taste in my mouth, and make a Pyrex addition taste bad too. DQ Hero, Joker, Byleth, thats three typical JRPG (yes, FE counts, don't argue otherwise) protagonists so far in the DLC. With Sora, we'd be 4/13 Ultimate newcomers

I typically don't consider KH an rpg series. Certainly not as much as Fire Emblem. They play like action games, and the numbered entries are even built with no exp runs in mind for extra challenge. The GET Bonuses in 2 made it so your attacks, magic, limits, etc are earned through progression of the story, not leveling up. But yeah good luck convincing somebody who's never played them that it's not an rpg. Can't hide Sora's goofy hair and Nomura chic design.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I can only speak to myself, but I don't see any hostility there whatsoever.

The way he used Also in this context would imply that kind of tone. Also consider where the comma and period were placed after also and no, would generally imply some form of anger/commanding tone.

Also -- no. It just sounds like your being harshly shutdown, at least to me.

If i'm looking into it too much then I am, but I would rather it not get overly heated in the first place.

Edited by lightcosmo

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8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I typically don't consider KH an rpg series. Certainly not as much as Fire Emblem. They play like action games, and the numbered entries are even built with no exp runs in mind for extra challenge. The GET Bonuses in 2 made it so your attacks, magic, limits, etc are earned through progression of the story, not leveling up. But yeah good luck convincing somebody who's never played them that it's not an rpg. Can't hide Sora's goofy hair and Nomura chic design.

I've never played a single game in the franchise unless TWEWY counts, but I have read of level 1 challenges, so I can see your point there. Though in terms of the hardcore KH fans (in other words, those there for a reason besides "Hey, it has Disney characters in it! Who are these people with weird names in black jackets? I dunno what they wanted, but ooh Frozen world is next!"), what do you think they'd be inclined to play besides KH? The heavy stories of the franchise don't find companions in action or platformers I would think. And there are "FF who aren't their FF-selves characters" in KH, with the spell language and best door-opening sword directly taken from FF, and then you crown it with Nomura. 

Lastly, the Action RPG genre, which I was placing KH under (with an unmistakable Japanese styling), shouldn't be all RPG, it should hurt if you don't dodge the giant enemy's punch. Although then I guess I have to ask for your definition of Action RPG, do SotN and the six GBA-DS Castlevanias count? 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I've never played a single game in the franchise unless TWEWY counts, but I have read of level 1 challenges, so I can see your point there. Though in terms of the hardcore KH fans  what do you think they'd be inclined to play besides KH? The heavy stories of the franchise don't find companions in action or platformers I would think. And there are "FF who aren't their FF-selves characters" in KH, with the spell language and best door-opening sword directly taken from FF, and then you crown it with Nomura. 

 

Most KH fans I've talked to who are in it for the gameplay have pretty normal, if fleshed out gaming palettes. They're open to anything from fighting games to turn based rpgs. Like me, a lot get into the series first because people call it a "final Fantasy/Disney crossover". When the ratio of Disney to FF was something like 85:15. I distinctly remember being disappointed with the first game in high school. I complained the FF characters just sort of stood around not doing heroic things. Cameos more than characters. But I was also rediscovering Disney at that age so the Disney stuff did not rub me the wrong way.

As for the "heavy story" elements, well action games have a lot of cutscenes too. Mainly meant to convince the player of one fact: "Dang, my character is so cool". Experience all the cutscenes of Devil May Cry and Bayonetta and it's off-the-rails nonsense. There is nothing compelling about the protagonist and their motivations, but they're so wild and crazy you want to turn your brain off and just experience the narrative through them. When all the characters in DMC5 finally meet up, one of them hands Dante a hat and it's like...what else would I expect to happen? God of War, both the first game and the 2018 game, are probably the most earnest attempts I can name at crafting a compelling narrative in a character action game. The first game is deliberately hitting the same notes and themes of your average greek tragedy you read in high school, while the new game is a sober redemption-through-fatherhood story. Every God of War game in between is just "wow, Kratos is really mad today"

Quote

Lastly, the Action RPG genre, which I was placing KH under (with an unmistakable Japanese styling), shouldn't be all RPG, it should hurt if you don't dodge the giant enemy's punch. Although then I guess I have to ask for your definition of Action RPG, do SotN and the six GBA-DS Castlevanias count? 

I don't disagree with the Action RPG label with KH, I just feel adamant that it was more action than RPG, at least with the numbered entries. Victory comes down to how well you understand your options. Or failing that, how well you find opportunities to safely mash the attack button and disengage in time to heal. SotN, if the metroidvania fan-made genre didn't exist, strikes me as an 2D action-adventure game. Like Zelda, but with a sidescrolling perspective. Since exploration and learning new abilities take presidence over getting stronger. Level ups and new gear pieces don't raise your stats a whole lot. Getting a new weapon is exciting because of a new attack to play with, not because it does bigger numbers.

The post-SotN castlevanias, most of which I have not played, definitely feel less like action games to me. Having to grind souls, customize a character. Your character is some amnesiatic blank slate, compared to Alucard who has a distinctive identity, motivation, and justification for his powers. People tell me the post-SotN bosses are tough enough that "grinding is necessary". I can't speak to the validity of that claim, but most of the time people come to that conclusion because the game is not encouraging them to play better when you can get so tough just by wailing on the same enemies in the same room for twenty minutes. It's the same phenomenon as Zelda 2. Anybody that tells you it's very grindy probably isn't approaching it as an action game. And with how seemingly prevalent the exp numbers seem to be, who can blame them for having the wrong approach? If they had built Zelda 2 to make you stronger after each boss fight, rather than contextualizing it around exp points, it'd be considered a much better game, and the whole series would probably not be anything like what we've got since.

Edited by Glennstavos

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1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

The post-SotN castlevanias, most of which I have not played, definitely feel less like action games to me. Having to grind souls, customize a character. Your character is some amnesiatic blank slate, compared to Alucard who has a distinctive identity, motivation, and justification for his powers. People tell me the post-SotN bosses are tough enough that "grinding is necessary". I can't speak to the validity of that claim, but most of the time people come to that conclusion because the game is not encouraging them to play better when you can get so tough just by wailing on the same enemies in the same room for twenty minutes. It's the same phenomenon as Zelda 2. Anybody that tells you it's very grindy probably isn't approaching it as an action game. And with how seemingly prevalent the exp numbers seem to be, who can blame them for having the wrong approach? If they had built Zelda 2 to make you stronger after each boss fight, rather than contextualizing it around exp points, it'd be considered a much better game, and the whole series would probably not be anything like what we've got since.

Yeah, thats wrong, grind is never necessary. And in some instances I've won boss battles without touching my healing items- that common cheat of cheats. Not to mention Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia both have Level 1 Hard Modes (and Bloodstained too I believe), grind is limited there. The Soul (or Shards in Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night) grind isn't needed whatsoever, barring a couple Souls in both Aria and Dawn of Sorrow to get their True Endings, you can work with what you randomly get. For Ritual of the Night, I stuck with the basic Merman Shard you get at the start of the game until the end because it was cheap, appropriately dodging and attacking with your standard weapon is enough, all the secondary weapons do is make victory quicker. I can agree with your Zelda 2 remark, I think there is little to be gained from any Metroidvania having EXP.

And thanks for your clarification on the KH fanbase. Though I admit this as a whole is a tangent.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I don't disagree with the Action RPG label with KH, I just feel adamant that it was more action than RPG, at least with the numbered entries. Victory comes down to how well you understand your options. Or failing that, how well you find opportunities to safely mash the attack button and disengage in time to heal.

KH actually has more strategy than that, if your considering level 1 crit playthroughs or KH3 Limit Cut fights.

Simply mashing usually wont work.

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8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

KH actually has more strategy than that, if your considering level 1 crit playthroughs or KH3 Limit Cut fights.

Simply mashing usually wont work.

I was trying to explain the spectrum of all difficulties, not just the hardest brand of challenge run that 0.5% of players are interested in. Even on normal mode, mashing won't work unless you're proactive about healing and finding openings to attack. And I'm familiar with level 1 crit because I watched people run that for years. Almost ran it myself but I was trying to get away from long speedgames.

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4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I was trying to explain the spectrum of all difficulties, not just the hardest brand of challenge run that 0.5% of players are interested in. Even on normal mode, mashing won't work unless you're proactive about healing and finding openings to attack. And I'm familiar with level 1 crit because I watched people run that for years. Almost ran it myself but I was trying to get away from long speedgames.

Standard mode is easy enough in KH2 to where you can get careless. Same with KH1. Assuming your reaction time is decent, I suppose. But odds are if you dont have the greatest RT, it's going to be difficult either way.

I think alot of people take interest in Critical Mode, KH2's especially. More than you'd expect, I believe.

I would reccomend KH2's critical mode, as it's more than just "we punish the player and give nothing in return!"

Edited by lightcosmo

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1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I would reccomend KH2's critical mode, as it's more than just "we punish the player and give nothing in return!"

I beat it 100% on that difficulty, just not at level 1. I especially like the skills and AP given to the player at the start. Among super hard difficulties it was engaging because instead of inflating enemy health values and damage, the player is also way tougher from the beginning

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Oh man, KH2 Critical... I made it, but by the end I just stun-locked Lingering Will. Sticking to Proud from ever on...

Also, hmm, Sora in Smash... wouldn't really oppose it, personally...

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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