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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



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From my point of view, Smash Ultimate is not just the best selling Smash game, it's one of Nintendo's best selling games in history. And before you attribute that success to the Switch's success, note that it's the third best selling game on the platform. For as much as Nintendo likes to harp on about how they "can't make a new game unless they have a way to really innovate on new hardware", they're not idiots. They're going to repeat whatever made that game uniquely a success. And what's the one thing that characterizes Ultimate over other entries in the series? Everyone is Here. It turns out people care about the unimportant characters. Getting back third parties is going to be an expensive challenge, but not an insurmountable one. And it's not like they throw out the data for characters in previous games or anything. Each Smash was built on the foundation of the previous.

Getting a roster of up to 91 veterans ready for launch is quite the task though - mainly from a QA standpoint . My recommendation is to get the most important ones together alongside the new ones. Then when the game enters DLC production they can do the necessary work on your Falcos, Toon Links, and Lucarios. Add back in those missing C-list veterans as free DLC, or bonuses for Fighter Passes, however they want to handle the nickle and diming. This is pretty much how other Fighting games have been doing it.

 

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6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

From my point of view, Smash Ultimate is not just the best selling Smash game, it's one of Nintendo's best selling games in history. And before you attribute that success to the Switch's success, note that it's the third best selling game on the platform. For as much as Nintendo likes to harp on about how they "can't make a new game unless they have a way to really innovate on new hardware", they're not idiots. They're going to repeat whatever made that game uniquely a success. And what's the one thing that characterizes Ultimate over other entries in the series? Everyone is Here. It turns out people care about the unimportant characters. Getting back third parties is going to be an expensive challenge, but not an insurmountable one. And it's not like they throw out the data for characters in previous games or anything. Each Smash was built on the foundation of the previous.

Getting a roster of up to 91 veterans ready for launch is quite the task though - mainly from a QA standpoint . My recommendation is to get the most important ones together alongside the new ones. Then when the game enters DLC production they can do the necessary work on your Falcos, Toon Links, and Lucarios. Add back in those missing C-list veterans as free DLC, or bonuses for Fighter Passes, however they want to handle the nickle and diming. This is pretty much how other Fighting games have been doing it.

 

I'm not sure getting the third party characters back will be that much of a challenge. Think about it from the perspective of the company thats involved. They didn't have to do anything to get Smash Ultimate made. They just said "Yes you can't I've Cloud if you give me X amount of money and Y amount of profits" and then Sakurai (presumably single handedly jk) implemented them into the game. If Smash Ultimate has really been that successful (I haven't checked my sales but I wouldn't be surprised) then the people who lent out the licensing rights will be motivated to continue to do so as it's a cash cow. So long as Smash as an IP continues to reliably make money (and work as such a good marketing tool) the third party licensing holders will continue to want to be involved. I think if we don't see any of the third parties again it'll be Nintendo's decision and not any of then other companies. It Nintendo decides the "everyone is here" aspect of the series isn't integral then they might cut some third party characters to save costs in the belief the game will sell hotcakes with or without the likes of Ryu and Sora.

Edited by Jotari

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On 10/8/2021 at 6:10 AM, Jotari said:

It Nintendo decides the "everyone is here" aspect of the series isn't integral then they might cut some third party characters to save costs in the belief the game will sell hotcakes with or without the likes of Ryu

Not to detract from your overall point, but between SNK Vs. Capcom, Marvel vs. Capcom, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, Street Fighter x Tekken, and Namco X Capcom/Project X Zone, I don't think Capcom and thus Ryu are in danger of getting the axe. Namco and Capcom are the third parties most likely to hang around (and given Nintendo has passed some of the Smash development to Namco, they're 99% certain to stay).

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5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not to detract from your overall point, but between SNK Vs. Capcom, Marvel vs. Capcom, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, Street Fighter x Tekken, and Namco X Capcom/Project X Zone, I don't think Capcom and thus Ryu are in danger of getting the axe. Namco and Capcom are the third parties most likely to hang around (and given Nintendo has passed some of the Smash development to Namco, they're 99% certain to stay).

Wasn't the intention to pick on Ryu specifically. I was just thinking of any random third party that isn't Sonic.

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This may have to do with Brawl only having two third party fighters in it to begin with, but Snake is the only third party fighter to have ever been cut from any game in the series, that being Smash 4 obviously. So, if any third party fighters do get cut next time, well, it happened to Snake once, it could twice.

Another thought regarding Smash 6 being an overhaul: what if fighters gained "variant movesets", such as Sunshine Mario and Adventures Fox? A variant moveset uses the same base fighter model but is able to alter some or all of the fighter's moves. It would be similar to Custom Specials from Smash 4, but instead of mix-and-matching Specials, you choose entire movesets to play wholesale. For example, Sunshine Mario uses the FLUDD Nozzles for his Specials, while Adventure Fox uses Krystal's Staff as a weapon and uses Fire Blaster, Ice Blast, Rocket Boost, and Ground Quake as his Specials. The benefit of this versus more customizable movesets is that you can identify which moveset an opponent is using and know which moves they have access to. If you see a Mario with FLUDD on his back, you know you're up against a Mario running the Sunshine moveset. If Fox is holding Krystal's Staff in his hands, you know he's using the Adventures moveset.

Edited by Lord_Brand

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That does beg the question why Snake was cut in the first place. I can't think of a good reason that isn't refuted by the existence of Snake in Ultimate and further Konami support in the form of Belmonts, Bomberman, etc. Sakurai has never said a word about it. Kojima had stated publicly that he had no say on Snake being in Smash - and would have liked him to return in Smash 4. Konami's business model hasn't changed much since 2014. Pretty much the only new developments I can think of are the rather excellent retro game collections (which are produced in-house!), Recent rumors about a return to their big three AAA franchises (though bare in mind that rumors of new Silent hill games have been circulating for several years and haven't borne fruit), and Konami rehired David Hayter to portray Snake in his cameo appearances for Bomberman R, and various video ads (Kojima cut all ties with Hayter before he left the company). All we can gather with this is that Konami cares a lot more about its legacy IP these days. But their future in games development is still a huge question mark.

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8 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

That does beg the question why Snake was cut in the first place. I can't think of a good reason that isn't refuted by the existence of Snake in Ultimate and further Konami support in the form of Belmonts, Bomberman, etc. Sakurai has never said a word about it. Kojima had stated publicly that he had no say on Snake being in Smash - and would have liked him to return in Smash 4. Konami's business model hasn't changed much since 2014. Pretty much the only new developments I can think of are the rather excellent retro game collections (which are produced in-house!), Recent rumors about a return to their big three AAA franchises (though bare in mind that rumors of new Silent hill games have been circulating for several years and haven't borne fruit), and Konami rehired David Hayter to portray Snake in his cameo appearances for Bomberman R, and various video ads (Kojima cut all ties with Hayter before he left the company). All we can gather with this is that Konami cares a lot more about its legacy IP these days. But their future in games development is still a huge question mark.

One could just as easily ask why Wolf was cut from Smash 4. Sbalr being third party means there might be some IP related reason, but it could also just be as mundane as them thinking the character just isn't a priority. 

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21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One could just as easily ask why Wolf was cut from Smash 4. Sbalr being third party means there might be some IP related reason, but it could also just be as mundane as them thinking the character just isn't a priority. 

True. Though it was Snake whom the words Everyone is Here were proudly displayed over in Ultimate's reveal trailer. So at least the developers acknowledge that he was and still is a big deal. He was the first third party character. The first notion that Smash Bros could be something bigger than a single company. I'm just happy he's back.

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On 10/11/2021 at 10:38 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

True. Though it was Snake whom the words Everyone is Here were proudly displayed over in Ultimate's reveal trailer. So at least the developers acknowledge that he was and still is a big deal. He was the first third party character. The first notion that Smash Bros could be something bigger than a single company. I'm just happy he's back.

Not to mention, Metal Gear was one of the first stealth-based games. Not the first, but easily the most popular and well-known. Come Smash 6, if Snake returns, I'd like to see a throwback costume or two for the classic Metal Gear on NES. I think Snake's Plissken guise in MGS2 was a throwback itself, so they could at least use that.

I seem to be on a major retro kick for Smash 6, between wanting to make the default Link, Zelda, and Ganon the originals from the NES and SNES games, wanting content from the original Final Fantasy, wanting more Mega Man content, etc. How odd.

Edited by Lord_Brand

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On 10/12/2021 at 10:33 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Not to mention, Metal Gear was one of the first stealth-based games. Not the first, but easily the most popular and well-known. Come Smash 6, if Snake returns, I'd like to see a throwback costume or two for the classic Metal Gear on NES. I think Snake's Plissken guise in MGS2 was a throwback itself, so they could at least use that.

I seem to be on a major retro kick for Smash 6, between wanting to make the default Link, Zelda, and Ganon the originals from the NES and SNES games, wanting content from the original Final Fantasy, wanting more Mega Man content, etc. How odd.

I still think Sakurai (or someone else taking his place) would keep Solid Snake return in the next installment since Sakurai did brought back all the cut veterans in Ultimate from the Fighter Ballot requests. Plus, Solid Snake isn't the only Konami Franchise Rep since there's the two Belmonts in Ultimate as well. Nintendo can definitely contact Konami again to bring their characters in the next installment.

And plus, Sakurai already did used the A Link to the Past attire for Zelda in Ultimate since A Link to the Past is counted as a SNES Zelda title in SNES Library along with the BS Zelda Title (Satelliview Title).

Edited by King Marth 64

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On 10/12/2021 at 10:33 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Come Smash 6, if Snake returns, I'd like to see a throwback costume or two for the classic Metal Gear on NES. I think Snake's Plissken guise in MGS2 was a throwback itself, so they could at least use that.

That would be great.  One of the most popular modded skins back in Brawl was Naked Snake from MGS3. The other most popular mods were naked...other characters. Konami could provide the rights to more Belmonts too, and treat them as Koopaling style skins rather than echo fighters since the only gameplay difference they put in between Simon and Richter is extremely minor and redundant 99.8% of the time. People suddenly like Trevor Belmont, maybe they can hire the voice actor from the show. 

Edited by Zapp Branniglenn

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32 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

That would be great.  One of the most popular modded skins back in Brawl was Naked Snake from MGS3. The other most popular mods were naked...other characters. Konami could provide the rights to more Belmonts too, and treat them as Koopaling style skins rather than echo fighters since the only gameplay difference they put in between Simon and Richter is extremely minor and redundant 99.8% of the time. People suddenly like Trevor Belmont, maybe they can hire the voice actor from the show. 

Personally I think Richter would have been better off as a costume and I've long since thought they should have done a Koopalings job on Simon. I think the only reason Richter is his own fighter is because a tonne of Simon's moves come from Richter due to Richeter being one of the Belmonts with the most physical moves to work with (I think, I haven't played all the games). In fact, I really don't think there was much reason to even wait until SSB6 in that regard, I think they should have been selling us alternate costumes in SSBU. They've released a tonne of Mii Costumes that I just have 0% interest in. And I'm the kind of guy who buys all the DLC packs in a game right up front with no compunctions. Yet Mii Costumes just don't do it for me. But if you give me a second Belmont or Naked Snake as a costume for twice the price they charge the Miis, hell yeah I'd be buying that. Hell I'd buy "real fighter" alt costumes (sorry Mii fighter fans) of characters I'm not even interested in like Villager. There's just so much untapped potential in just making models as alts for the existing fighters.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Personally I think Richter would have been better off as a costume and I've long since thought they should have done a Koopalings job on Simon. I think the only reason Richter is his own fighter is because a tonne of Simon's moves come from Richter due to Richeter being one of the Belmonts with the most physical moves to work with (I think, I haven't played all the games). In fact, I really don't think there was much reason to even wait until SSB6 in that regard, I think they should have been selling us alternate costumes in SSBU. They've released a tonne of Mii Costumes that I just have 0% interest in. And I'm the kind of guy who buys all the DLC packs in a game right up front with no compunctions. Yet Mii Costumes just don't do it for me. But if you give me a second Belmont or Naked Snake as a costume for twice the price they charge the Miis, hell yeah I'd be buying that. Hell I'd buy "real fighter" alt costumes (sorry Mii fighter fans) of characters I'm not even interested in like Villager. There's just so much untapped potential in just making models as alts for the existing fighters.

The difference between Simon and Richter that I know of what they have so far are:

  1. Different Color Holy Water Flames
  2. Length of the Whip
  3. Poses
  4. Taunts
  5. Popularity in Regions: Simon is the highly requested Belmont in the West while Richter is the highly requested Belmont in Japan.

Also, I did heard some Castlevania fans who played alot of Castlevania games claim even myself that Castlevania: Rondo of Blood was better than Super Castlevania IV which it was why Richter got in to serve as the first 3rd Party Echo Fighter in the entire SSB series and plus, without Castlevania: Rondo of Blood means that we won't have Castlevania: Symphony of the Night nor the other Metroidvania genre exist as well.

Edited by King Marth 64

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1 minute ago, King Marth 64 said:

The difference between Simon and Richter that I know of what they have so far are:

  1. Different Color Holy Water Flames
  2. Length of the Whip
  3. Poses
  4. Taunts
  5. Popularity in Regions: Simon is the highly requested Belmont in the West while Richter is the highly requested Belmont in Japan.

Length of their Whip actually seems like a decent justification for an echo, I wasn't aware of that. That's a bit like Lucina and Marth, a slight difference, but one that could make a big difference. Better than Daisy and Peach at any rate, who I think they patched out the one difference people could actually notice (ie that one of their turnips bounced ant the other didn't).

While we're on the subject of Belmonts, why oh why is there no redhead alt for Simon? The Hercules looking dude they have in Smash isn't my Simon. All the games I've played in the Castlevannia series Simon has been a redhead, or at least a dark brunette. Now I know I'm not a Castlevannia expert, so I'm sure he looks like that in some games, and he does look like that in artwork and stuff, but would it kill them to have an alt where he has proper red hair?

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1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

The difference between Simon and Richter that I know of what they have so far are:

  1. Length of the Whip

Also, I did heard some Castlevania fans who played alot of Castlevania games claim even myself that Castlevania: Rondo of Blood was better than Super Castlevania IV which it was why Richter got in to serve as the first 3rd Party Echo Fighter in the entire SSB series and plus, without Castlevania: Rondo of Blood means that we won't have Castlevania: Symphony of the Night nor the other Metroidvania genre exist as well.

There is no difference in the length of the whip. The only gameplay-relevant difference with the two characters is in their holy water. Simon's has the fire element, while Richter's is "aura" element. And the only scenario this impacts is the Olimar matchup. Olimar can lob a red pikmin through Simon's fire, but not Richter's. Otherwise they are the same exact character.

I agree that Richter is a hype inclusion, but come on now. Symphony of the Night being Rondo of Blood's sequel doesn't mean Rondo deserves the credit for Symphony's innovations. Rondo's just a good sidescrolling action game, like Super Castlevania before it, and the others before that one. By that same logic, Castlevania 1 deserves the credit for Metroidvanias and suddenly we're back to Simon.

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10 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

There is no difference in the length of the whip. The only gameplay-relevant difference with the two characters is in their holy water. Simon's has the fire element, while Richter's is "aura" element. And the only scenario this impacts is the Olimar matchup. Olimar can lob a red pikmin through Simon's fire, but not Richter's. Otherwise they are the same exact character.

I agree that Richter is a hype inclusion, but come on now. Symphony of the Night being Rondo of Blood's sequel doesn't mean Rondo deserves the credit for Symphony's innovations. Rondo's just a good sidescrolling action game, like Super Castlevania before it, and the others before that one. By that same logic, Castlevania 1 deserves the credit for Metroidvanias and suddenly we're back to Simon.

I was positive when they rebranded clones as Echo fighters, but it really seems like they just weren't trying when it comes to Echo fighters. Like that difference is so ridiculously small and doesn't even make much canonical sense. Richter absolutely could have been an alternate portrait like the Koopalings. Is it really so hard to tweak some running speed or knockback angles to make them something of a different character? They managed to do so just fine back in Melee.

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The Echo Fighters are just roster filler so people won't complain about there being only six newcomers, which is the same reason Melee had clones. My main issue with Echoes is why Alph isn't one. They wouldn't even need to give him Rock Pikmin, just give him unique taunts and victory poses, then give him and Olimar four more colors, and you're done. Give him and Olimar their voices too, you can just reuse them from their games.

As for why Richter got in, Sakurai pulled a lot from Richter when designing Simon's moveset and probably figured that he might as well add Richter too, since he's popular among Castlevania fans. We don't know if this came after the "Echo Fighter" designation was conceptualized, or if Richter inspired the idea like Lucina did in Smash 4.

And if Snake were to get another costume in a future game, I would personally prefer his MGS1 outfit or Iroquois Pliskin.

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I was positive when they rebranded clones as Echo fighters, but it really seems like they just weren't trying when it comes to Echo fighters. Like that difference is so ridiculously small and doesn't even make much canonical sense. Richter absolutely could have been an alternate portrait like the Koopalings. Is it really so hard to tweak some running speed or knockback angles to make them something of a different character? They managed to do so just fine back in Melee.

I don't know. Sakurai's the only man on the planet that can tell you what defines an echo fighter. He'll be able to explain how Mario and Dr. Mario aren't echo fighters yet Ryu and Ken are. Ryu and Ken have even more differences, more unique moves, and certainly more unique properties and parameters, while Doc's differences are just he moves slower, jumps lower, deals ~17% more damage on everything, and they swapped out the down B for Mario's old Down B.

I really do like the idea of echo fighters though. It's an acknowledgement that two characters are just going to turn out similar if you put them both in the game with their most recognizable moves. It reads better on headlines than "clone character", and if you don't like them taking up equal space on your character select, there's an option to consolidate them. Echo Fighters are cool, I just wish it implied that there are some gameplay differences. Don't concern yourself about one version being "better" competitively. That's what balance patches are for. And they can even use balance patches to further deliver new differences between two clone characters.

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On 10/6/2021 at 2:11 AM, Lightchao42 said:

Now that we have every character, I wonder why Koei Tecmo got basically nothing. Sure, they got an Assist Trophy and some spirits, but all that content was shared with other developers, there's no Warriors or Ninja Gaiden or anything. They didn't even get any Mii costumes for crying out loud. Considering how expansive Ultimate's content became it's strange that one of Nintendo's most consistent partners got nothing of their own.

I like Koei well enough but I think they're a bit too second rate for Smash. I often suspect their fellow publishers look down on them. One of the reasons I'd never expect a Star Wars Warriors would be that the likes of EA would definitely consider themselves about Koei. They seem (at best) a solidly AA company rather than your traditional triple. They straddle that awkward middle ground where they definitely not one of the big boys nor are they small enough to be plucky underdogs with a cult fanbase. 

Their biggest claim to fame these days is Dynasty Warriors which is not terribly well regarded by the gaming community or the journalist sphere. Ninja Gaiden has a better reputation but isn't that series kinda dead these days?

Koei has partnered up with Nintendo to strong success but perhaps mostly in a workhorse capacity. 

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I like Koei well enough but I think they're a bit too second rate for Smash. I often suspect their fellow publishers look down on them. One of the reasons I'd never expect a Star Wars Warriors would be that the likes of EA would definitely consider themselves about Koei. They seem (at best) a solidly AA company rather than your traditional triple. They straddle that awkward middle ground where they definitely not one of the big boys nor are they small enough to be plucky underdogs with a cult fanbase. 

Their biggest claim to fame these days is Dynasty Warriors which is not terribly well regarded by the gaming community or the journalist sphere. Ninja Gaiden has a better reputation but isn't that series kinda dead these days?

Koei has partnered up with Nintendo to strong success but perhaps mostly in a workhorse capacity. 

I think those arguments would hold more water if SNK didn't have a character, and I think most would say Koei Tecmo is a bigger company than SNK. Not that Terry shouldn't have been added, mind you, but he is notably lesser known than the rest of the third party characters. Franchises being kinda dead hasn't stopped plenty of characters before, though those cases had noteworthy fan demand. And besides, would EA work with any Japanese company?

Of course, it's not just that KT doesn't have a character, it doesn't have anything that isn't shared with another company. This is mostly in regard to how Ultimate has expanded Smash's scope, as Ubisoft has content, Bethesda has content, Arc System Works has content, Tetris has content, and plenty of indies have content. I'm mostly wondering why KT didn't even get any Mii costumes or Spirits of its own.

Edited by Lightchao42

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So Sora's out now and I can say that he feels really good to play as. They have replicated the feeling of how he controls in Kingdom Hearts rather well (at least Kingdom Hearts when it's not indulging in mashing the same button to zip all over the place winning a fight...though actually that does sound like his side special). I stand by what I said about how his Up special is a bit generic and that his side special should have been in that slot, but more than anything I just hate the fact that they gave him a counter. Not only is it, by the point, the least inspired Down Special you can give someone, not only is it an aspect completely lacking in distinction in Kingdom Hearts (really an accurate rendition of Kingdom Hearts counter mechanic would just be good out of shield options), not only is it the 67th character with a counter down special in the game, but it doesn't even have the decency to be a good counter. I've found it really unforgiving to pull off and completely not worth it when the attack actually does activate. I think I'd like literally anything else in his down special slot.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

not only is it the 67th character with a counter down special

Finally, is it time to -while not overcomplicating the Smash arsenal of techniques for all characters- add a designated universal counter ability for everyone? Free the B-Down!

 

17 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

And besides, would EA work with any Japanese company?

I'm reminded reading the gaming news of today that Goichi Suda/Suda51 did publish a game with EA. Now, Suda is the epitome of avant garde -the game has an blatantly innuendo gun as its main weapon plastered on the box art- yet his opinion still matters even if we'd be talking a bigger and more milquetoast Japanese developer. And, Suda hated his time with EA, they were far too controlling on the creative side and forced him to Americanize/big business-ize and pasteurize his artistic vision.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Finally, is it time to -while not overcomplicating the Smash arsenal of techniques for all characters- add a designated universal counter ability for everyone? Free the B-Down!

Yeah, I've been thinking that for a while now. Make it some kind of shield special ability for the whole case (and maybe move Inkling and Steve's shield specials to taunts). Though some counters that are designed to be more interesting like Witch Time or Revenge could be preserved. I don't mind counters, they just need to be unique and interesting. Which a large majority of them just aren't.

Edited by Jotari

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

So Sora's out now and I can say that he feels really good to play as. They have replicated the feeling of how he controls in Kingdom Hearts rather well (at least Kingdom Hearts when it's not indulging in mashing the same button to zip all over the place winning a fight...though actually that does sound like his side special). I stand by what I said about how his Up special is a bit generic and that his side special should have been in that slot, but more than anything I just hate the fact that they gave him a counter. Not only is it, by the point, the least inspired Down Special you can give someone, not only is it an aspect completely lacking in distinction in Kingdom Hearts (really an accurate rendition of Kingdom Hearts counter mechanic would just be good out of shield options), not only is it the 67th character with a counter down special in the game, but it doesn't even have the decency to be a good counter. I've found it really unforgiving to pull off and completely not worth it when the attack actually does activate. I think I'd like literally anything else in his down special slot.

But counterattacks are very central to the series, Sora almost always has one.

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1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

But counterattacks are very central to the series, Sora almost always has one.

It's not though. It exists, but it's more a parry than any kind of counter attack and it's not all that integral to the combat of the games. Like I said, the most accurate representation would be giving Sora good out of shield options. But if a counter attack is an absolute must, there are far flashier and interesting counter attacks from Kingdom Hearts that could have been used. Link can perform a block and counter in most 3D Zelda games too, but I equally would be disappointed if Link got a generic counter too. Especially if it's as bad as Sora's is.

Edited by Jotari

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