Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[NinjaMonkey]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:55 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's another radical turn - Warner Brothers also owns the film rights to the Harry Potter universe. Imagine Hermione fighting Shaggy, or Voldemort versus Batman. It'd be the crossover that makes us ask "have crossovers gone too far?".

They also own Netherealm Studios, the makers of Mortal Kombat and have already made a MK Vs DC game.

[Perkilator]

Just wondering; how would you guys feel if these were the newcomers for Ultimate?

Base

Spoiler

• Inkling
• Simon Belmont
  • Richter Belmont (Echo)
• Crash Bandicoot
• Ridley
• King K. Rool
• Isabelle
• Incineroar
• Waluigi
  • Dark Samus (Echo)
  • Daisy (Echo)
  • Chrom (Echo)
  • Alph (Echo)
  • Ken (Echo)

DLC

Spoiler

Fighters Pass Vol. 1

• Sakura Shinguji
• Hero
• Banjo & Kazooie
• Terry Bogard
• Sora

Fighters Pass Vol. 2

• Min Min
• Bandana Waddle Dee
• Sephiroth
• Pyra/Mythra
• Kazuya Mishima
• Dr. Eggman

 

[Lord_Brand]

2 hours ago, Perkilator said:

Just wondering; how would you guys feel if these were the newcomers for Ultimate?

That list still has Kazuya and no Krystal or Shantae, so I wouldn't like it much more than the one we have now, but at least Crash and Eggman would be added. I'd keep Sora as the last DLC and make Eggman the last fighter of Pass 1. Alph as an Olimar Echo makes sense, but I don't really see what he'd add other than another fighter to the roster. Louie, Brittany, and/or Charlie would all be more distinct.

I really wish we'd gotten a third Pass. Crash or Shantae would have been the perfect candidates to kick that one off, and they could also have added Eggman, Doom Slayer, Dragonborn, Dante, or a number of other highly-requested characters.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Fire Emblem Fan]

10 hours ago, Perkilator said:

Just wondering; how would you guys feel if these were the newcomers for Ultimate?

I'd probably have liked that lineup a bit more, honestly. It's keeps the majority of what we did end up getting intact, but replaces some of the more questionable choices (Piranha Plant, for instance) with better choices. It also has Crash, who really should have gotten into the game, Activision controversy aside. The only thing I'd question in your lineup is Sakura Shinguji.

[King Marth 64]

I seriously do not think Crash would even quite fit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate since he's technically a late requested fighter before Ultimate was announced nor I heard anyone mentioned about Crash during at the Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U in the Fighter Ballot opening. Plus, I'm kind of wanted a 2nd SNK Franchise Rep or Mike Jones from StarTropics over Sora since Sora is my very least hyped DLC Fighter since we did have enough Square Enix characters in Ultimate and plus, his trailer felt really empty for an ending. Sephiroth's trailer was kind of more excite full than Sora's trailer to be honest. I do like the DLC Fighters Line Up except for Sora to be honest. I do favored Byleth as one of my over-the-Top DLC Fighters over Sora.

Edited December 10, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Fire Emblem Fan]

12 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

I seriously do not think Crash would even quite fit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate since he's technically a late requested fighter before Ultimate was announced nor I heard anyone mentioned about Crash during at the Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U in the Fighter Ballot opening.

What? Crash would fit in perfectly, lol. And he's been a highly requested character for a long time, absolutely since even before the Wii U Fighter Ballot.

[King Marth 64]

3 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

What? Crash would fit in perfectly, lol. And he's been a highly requested character for a long time, absolutely since even before the Wii U Fighter Ballot.

Wait, since when exactly how long? I didn't see anyone majorly talked about Crash back when the Fighter Ballot was active, nor when Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U came out? I did saw he majorly merely popped out back when Ultimate was in development. I do know that Ultimate that some of the newcomers (like pre-2015 era) were direct requested straight from the Fighter Ballot like Eighth Dragon Quest Hero, King K. Rool, Isabelle, Simon Belmont, Richter Belmont, Dark Samus, Chrom, Sora, Banjo & Kazooie, etc. I was kind of expecting that Crash would get demoted into a Mii Fighter Costume since Sakurai did bring some requested characters like Dante, poor Shantae, Doomslayer, etc. had and I usually think Crash would have been planned to be one of the late requested characters that get devoted to a Mii Fighter Costume for Round 11 Mii Fighter Costumes set before the Activision Blizzard lawsuit controversy happened since there was like three costumes (Round 11 was the lowest Mii Fighter Costume set in all the 11 of them) instead of the usual four when Sora was announced.

Edited December 10, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Lord_Brand]

Nobody was requesting Crash during the Ballot because his most notable recent games at the time were Crash of the Titans and Mind Over Mutant, which were divisive at best. By the time Ultimate released, the N. Sane Trilogy had been out for a year and a half, and had released on the Switch six months prior. By that point, Crash had to be on Nintendo's radar.

And regardless of whether or not the requests came too late, that doesn't stop Crash from fitting in to Smash as his skillset lends itself perfectly to a Smash moveset. His spin attack would fit as a neutral attack, side tilt, and forward/neutral/back aerials, his slide kick would be an easy dash attack, his body slam works as a down aerial, and he's got lots of options for specials including the Jetpack, Motorcycle, Boar/Polar/Baby T., Fruit Bazooka, TNT Crate, Bounce Crate, and Quantum Masks. He has a couple of good options for a Final Smash, too: Either a reference to the true ending of Crash 2 where Crash blows up the Cortex Space Station using N. Brio's laser (highly reminiscent of K. Rool's Blast-O-Matic) or a creative use of the Nitro Detonator that appears at the end of many levels where Crash traps his foes amongst piles of Nitro Crates and smacks a nearby Detonator, blowing them sky high.

Crash has plenty of options for costumes, songs, and spirits, his stage gimmick would be easy to figure out (lots and lots of crates), and his sister Coco would be an easy semi-Echo (I say semi because she'd have to use a different animation rig than Crash due to their physiques) since she basically has all the same moves as Crash, the biggest difference being that her spin makes use of her legs moreso than her arms, which in gameplay terms would classify them as leg attacks rather than arm attacks for the purposes of Spirit boosts and such.

Then there's the fact Crash is popular with Japanese fans. Japan is the whole reason the Crash Dance and Fake Crash exist. Literally the only two things holding Crash back now are A) the relatively late timing of his big comeback compared to Ultimate's release and the subsequent finalization of the DLC and B) the Activision-Blizzard scandal. Okay, there is also the possibility that Activision were being too greedy, like when PSASBR released on PS3 and the devs were unable to get the licenses for Crash and Spyro because of the high asking price.

I will be very surprised if Crash doesn't make it into Smash 6. Of course, I was very surprised that he didn't make it into Smash 5. I think he had higher demand than Byleth or Min Min, certainly.

[Jotari]

I'm trying to enter the offical European qualifiers. I got an email saying go online at this time to play a heat, but the option just isn't there 😕 I have a European copy of the game, but maybe it doesn't work because I'm not physically in Europe.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:35 AM, Lord_Brand said:

Then there's the fact Crash is popular with Japanese fans. Japan is the whole reason the Crash Dance and Fake Crash exist.

Don't know what Crash's dance has to do with Japan. Fake Crash is...not a point in his favor. It's a pretty transparent joke about Crash's poor marketing materials in Japan that got immortalized into the games. Just think about it: Japanese Crash = Fake Crash. Not good optics. I don't think Crash has done okay commercially in Japan since the original trilogy. The remasters and Crash 4 sold very few copies in Japan, only cracking fifth place both times. Crash 4 on PS4 couldn't even beat the three year old Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on launch week. Yikes. Since you brought them up for comparison, Arms and Fire Emblem Three Houses both topped their charts handily. If there's any region where Crash has persistently been a big presence, it's Europe, but that's not going to help him get into Smash.

Quote

Okay, there is also the possibility that Activision were being too greedy, like when PSASBR released on PS3 and the devs were unable to get the licenses for Crash and Spyro because of the high asking price.

This is also a big barrier. Granted it's been a whole ten years since then and the landscape of these crossover platform fighters has been changing considerably in the past few months alone. Maybe Activision is more amenable to the idea in the 2020s. Heck, they may even have early design documents for their own cursed project crossing over Crash and Spyro with Overwatch and World of Warcraft characters. I don't think Blizzard has ever commented on whether they've been considering Activision characters for Heroes of the Storm for instance, but that's something to look out for in the future.

Plus I just think Playstation All Stars had too small a budget for character acquisitions in order to make a lot of dreams happen. Sony didn't have a wealth of characters they could freely put in like the Nintendo produced Smash Bros does, so things got more strained. Even some of the characters that did come in had compromises to sell an upcoming game rather than a legacy title. Like Dante becoming DINO (Dante in Name Only), Solid Snake becoming Raiden, etc. Nintendo has been jealously gatekeeping its biggest IP much more than Sony has, and while that has screwed over the games' individual success, it certainly plays a big role in Smash Bros rosters ballooning as large as they have. Some would say they're still not done adding legacy Nintendo characters.

[Lord_Brand]

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Don't know what Crash's dance has to do with Japan.

Behold, the origins of the Crash Dance:

 

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Fake Crash is...not a point in his favor. It's a pretty transparent joke about Crash's poor marketing materials in Japan that got immortalized into the games. Just think about it: Japanese Crash = Fake Crash. Not good optics.

His popularity in the Crash fandom says otherwise. And Japan loves it some big, bushy eyebrows; why else did Ratchet get a pair of his own in the Japanese versions of the R&C series and manga? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you also expressed disdain for the whole "pingas" meme of the Sonic fandom once. I'm beginning to think you just don't get self-referential humor. Nintendo does, though. That's why one of Simon's victory animations has him constantly jumping and whipping; it's a reference to a glitch from his original game.

By the way, we also Japan to thank for Coco Bandicoot's existence, as Sony of Japan requested a sidekick for Crash to replace Tawna.

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't think Crash has done okay commercially in Japan since the original trilogy. The remasters and Crash 4 sold very few copies in Japan, only cracking fifth place both times. Crash 4 on PS4 couldn't even beat the three year old Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on launch week. Yikes. Since you brought them up for comparison, Arms and Fire Emblem Three Houses both topped their charts handily. If there's any region where Crash has persistently been a big presence, it's Europe, but that's not going to help him get into Smash.

The fact remains though that Crash did fantastic in Japan back in the day, where the trilogy together sold 4 million out of 10 million global. 40% of the sales in Japan alone? For a Western game, that's amazing. That alone makes Crash historically relevant enough to warrant including.

And sakes, Banjo & Kazooie got into Smash, and though their games did decently well enough in Japan, I don't recall hearing that they were anywhere near as popular as Crash was. And they don't have any recent releases other than maybe the NSO Expansion Pack to use as a reference for "modern relevancy". At least Crash is selling something in Japan. If a long-dormant mascot duo belonging to another first party could get into Smash, an active mascot belonging to a third party damn well should be able to.

"Couldn't even?" Crash was up against freaking Mario. The only franchise on the planet that can hope to compete with that juggernaut is Pokemon. CTRNF had the best U.S. sales launch in the franchise's history. It came in second behind Nintendo's own Super Mario Maker 2. I don't know how much Nintendo pays attention to their European market, but they definitely pay attention to their U.S. market.

Before Nintendo announced that an Arms rep was coming to Smash, how much demand was there for an Arms rep? Fire Emblem, I'm not surprised. It's enjoyed explosive success ever since Awakening. Not to the degree I originally believed, but enough that it qualifies as one of Nintendo's A-list franchises now. All the same, Byleth's inclusion was met with a much more lukewarm response than what Crash would have gotten, I guarantee you.

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Plus I just think Playstation All Stars had too small a budget for character acquisitions in order to make a lot of dreams happen. Sony didn't have a wealth of characters they could freely put in like the Nintendo produced Smash Bros does, so things got more strained. Even some of the characters that did come in had compromises to sell an upcoming game rather than a legacy title. Like Dante becoming DINO (Dante in Name Only), Solid Snake becoming Raiden, etc. Nintendo has been jealously gatekeeping its biggest IP much more than Sony has, and while that has screwed over the games' individual success, it certainly plays a big role in Smash Bros rosters ballooning as large as they have. Some would say they're still not done adding legacy Nintendo characters.

They could have picked more than one or two characters per series. Ratchet and Sly in particular had lots of great choices, like Captain Qwark, Dr. Nefarious, Ace Hardlight, Bentley, Murray, Carmelita, and Dr. M. They added Zeus from God of War as DLC; I have to question why he wasn't there in the first place as the nemesis of Kratos?

At 24 fighters (and that's with DLC), PSASBR barely matched Melee at a time when Brawl was out and sporting a beefy roster of 39 (without DLC). And a mere two years later, Smash 4 utterly blew the both of them away with a final roster of 58. If Sony was going to try and compete with Nintendo's juggernaut, they needed to be ready to put more money into it, either up front for the base game or in the form of DLC. Really, the short DLC run was the most tragic part of PSASBR's development; they did DLC before Smash did, and they added two new fighters at a time (though that was as much out of necessity due to the game's forced rivals theme). That could have been a major edge, had they decided to push it.

But, that's getting into the numerous issues with PSASBR's development, which is beyond the scope of this topic. Point is, Crash deserves to be in Smash; he'd be fun to play, he's got plenty of content to offer, and he has the notoriety and financial success to justify it.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

17 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Behold, the origins of the Crash Dance:

Ah, I see. That probably would stick with people who saw it the way that the man in crash suit sticks with me when I saw it on TV. If you want to get technical, commercials for the first Japanese release would have been in development at the same time as the second game, but this is potentially the first context any non developer had seen it. I can't see any information on when these aired. They could have been made for one of the later 1998 or 2001 releases that Wikipedia mentions.

Quote

His popularity in the Crash fandom says otherwise. And Japan loves it some big, bushy eyebrows; why else did Ratchet get a pair of his own in the Japanese versions of the R&C series and manga?

It's just localization. Things get changed to make it more palatable to an audience with no connection to the foreign material. Fake Crash in the actual games is more like Capcom's usages of Bad Box Art Mega Man. It's a joke made at the expense of bad localization rather than a genuine representation of the main character. Have you ever encountered somebody who pointed to that boxart and said this right here is the reason why Mega Man is successful in the west?

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you also expressed disdain for the whole "pingas" meme of the Sonic fandom once. I'm beginning to think you just don't get self-referential humor. Nintendo does, though. That's why one of Simon's victory animations has him constantly jumping and whipping; it's a reference to a glitch from his original game.

You mean, do I not like deep references to that character appearing in Smash Bros? Don't jump to conclusions. I wouldn't be surprised if you heard what that particular castlevania reference was from me back when the easter egg was discovered. Smash Bros is a game very much about its callbacks, and I encourage that. Most of my suggestions for changes to existing characters are in support of making them look and feel closer to the source material. You've posted in this short lived thread, so I know you've witnessed this yourself, even if you don't remember it. 

Pingas is another story however. I wouldn't want that in Smash because A) It has no basis in any official, Sega produced Sonic material, and B) It's just not funny. Next I'd expect you to suggest we change Sonic's side Special to him summoning his good buddy 'Sanic' to attack his opponent with the power of memes. No thanks. The Crash Dance IS funny regardless of if you catch the reference, and DOES originate from the source material. 

Quote

The fact remains though that Crash did fantastic in Japan back in the day, where the trilogy together sold 4 million out of 10 million global. 40% of the sales in Japan alone? For a Western game, that's amazing. That alone makes Crash historically relevant enough to warrant including.

And sakes, Banjo & Kazooie got into Smash, and though their games did decently well enough in Japan, I don't recall hearing that they were anywhere near as popular as Crash was. And they don't have any recent releases other than maybe the NSO Expansion Pack to use as a reference for "modern relevancy". At least Crash is selling something in Japan. If a long-dormant mascot duo belonging to another first party could get into Smash, an active mascot belonging to a third party damn well should be able to.

I don't deny that the original trilogy's success, especially for a western game, is really pretty good. That's why I contrasted it against the modern Crash releases which barely registered in that region. You say "at least it's selling something in Japan", but is that really such an achievement? International releases are a given in the modern AAA games industry. I can only think of one major western game in the last ten years that didn't officially release on store shelves in Japan and it's Mortal Kombat 11. And not because NRS didn't want to. 

The comparison to Banjo & Kazooie is apt however. Because from a Japanese perspective, Crash has had pitifully low relevance since the late 1990s. If you want to know how a character like Banjo gets in while Crash didn't, the answer isn't in the sales data, but in company relations. Microsoft/Rare has a much better relationship to Nintendo, and a much higher focus on keeping legacy characters and franchises alive than Activision does. Or at least preserving those titles in a package like Rare Replay. The same year that Banjo was added to Smash, they published a new, very good Battletoads game. Even if they never add Rash to Smash, I'll at least enjoy playing as him in Killer Instinct. 

Quote

"Couldn't even?" Crash was up against freaking Mario.

Oh come on. It was up against the three year old Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, not a new Mario release. You know the difference. Name any switch game that came out in 2018 or later and it probably sold more on its launch week in Japan than Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on the same week.

Quote

Before Nintendo announced that an Arms rep was coming to Smash, how much demand was there for an Arms rep?

From what I remember? People were taking it as a given. Especially with the first Smash Ultimate announcement being Inkling. ARMS was the only other new Nintendo IP made since Smash 4. The expectation was that if ARMS wasn't in the base game, it would be in the DLC. And we were correct in that assumption. 

Quote

All the same, Byleth's inclusion was met with a much more lukewarm response than what Crash would have gotten, I guarantee you.

Yep. If we're ever in a timeline where Smash Bros has seven characters from Crash Bandicoot, I expect the inclusion of N. Brio as the eighth will be quite lukewarm indeed. But Fire Emblem's representation in Smash Bros is a whole other beast than Crash, wouldn't you agree?

Quote

But, that's getting into the numerous issues with PSASBR's development, which is beyond the scope of this topic. Point is, Crash deserves to be in Smash; he'd be fun to play, he's got plenty of content to offer, and he has the notoriety and financial success to justify it.

Indeed. All I have to add to that is that PSABR was the first of its franchise, not the third like Brawl was. Every Smash game was developed on top of the previous, after all. I fault Playstation All Stars for a lot of things, but its roster size would be a low blow. Few fully original 3D fighting games manage such large rosters as Brawl did on their first entry. 

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ah, I see. That probably would stick with people who saw it the way that the man in crash suit sticks with me when I saw it on TV. If you want to get technical, commercials for the first Japanese release would have been in development at the same time as the second game, but this is potentially the first context any non developer had seen it. I can't see any information on when these aired. They could have been made for one of the later 1998 or 2001 releases that Wikipedia mentions.

Pitching in on this. From the archived old Naughty Dog website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080728001056/http://www.naughtydog.com/crash/crash/world.htm

"Megumi Hosoya, marketing genius, created the Crash Dance for Crash 1's TV ads in Japan. The success of that campaign influenced Naughty Dog to incorporate the dance into Crash 2 and Warped."

Edited December 16, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Lord_Brand]

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ah, I see. That probably would stick with people who saw it the way that the man in crash suit sticks with me when I saw it on TV. If you want to get technical, commercials for the first Japanese release would have been in development at the same time as the second game, but this is potentially the first context any non developer had seen it. I can't see any information on when these aired. They could have been made for one of the later 1998 or 2001 releases that Wikipedia mentions.

It's just localization. Things get changed to make it more palatable to an audience with no connection to the foreign material. Fake Crash in the actual games is more like Capcom's usages of Bad Box Art Mega Man. It's a joke made at the expense of bad localization rather than a genuine representation of the main character. Have you ever encountered somebody who pointed to that boxart and said this right here is the reason why Mega Man is successful in the west?

The bad box art comparison is apt. And Capcom themselves did in fact make moves to include BBAMM in their games for a time, including the canceled Mega Man Unlimited and Street Fighter X Tekken. A pity that the latter example came at a time when Mega Man's games were being cancelled left and right, causing fans to accuse Capcom of treating Mega Man as little more than a joke while shilling the Street Fighter series.

Fake Crash, meanwhile, never appeared in any game in lieu of the real deal, and most recently was promoted to the Player 3 character of Crash 4's multiplayer mode (with his sister, Fake Coco, serving as P4). There are people requesting that he be included as a skin for Crash or even as an Echo of him in Smash. The bushy-browed, piano-toothed little doofus has become unironically popular. At any rate, his existence isn't a strike against Crash, and certainly isn't going to inhibit his chances of getting into Smash 6.

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

You mean, do I not like deep references to that character appearing in Smash Bros? Don't jump to conclusions. I wouldn't be surprised if you heard what that particular castlevania reference was from me back when the easter egg was discovered. Smash Bros is a game very much about its callbacks, and I encourage that. Most of my suggestions for changes to existing characters are in support of making them look and feel closer to the source material. You've posted in this short lived thread, so I know you've witnessed this yourself, even if you don't remember it. 

Pingas is another story however. I wouldn't want that in Smash because A) It has no basis in any official, Sega produced Sonic material, and B) It's just not funny. Next I'd expect you to suggest we change Sonic's side Special to him summoning his good buddy 'Sanic' to attack his opponent with the power of memes. No thanks. The Crash Dance IS funny regardless of if you catch the reference, and DOES originate from the source material. 

I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but you are as well. I would totally pick Knuckles to be Sonic's Side Special, he'd have a lot more punch. ; ) And if he gets hit, he can say "Oh, no!", or maybe, if hit by a fire attack, "My hat's on fire!" (The idea of Sonic calling on Tails and Knux for his U and S Specials is legitimately interesting, though I'd still prefer them to be fully playable.)

In all seriousness, I don't think it unreasonable to have one of Eggman's three taunts be him saying "Snooping as usual, I see!" It's undeniably part of his legacy, and many fans would scream with delight at seeing the meme get referenced in an actual video game. If nothing else, the fact it'd annoy some people *ahem* makes it perfect as a taunt. They could always compromise by making his Japanese quote something completely different, and saving Pingas for the American fans. What would you choose to be Eggman's three taunts? For me, "Get a load of this!", "Snooping as usual, I see!", and a sideways laugh (referencing the Classic games) would be a perfect triad.

And hey, at least I'm not asking for Eggman "****ing on the Moon!" Though a Blast-O-Matic-esque Final Smash where he traps opponents on the Moon and blasts it with the Eclipse Cannon is tempting, but I think I'd prefer his Death Egg Robo punching opponents Giga Bowser-style.

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Oh come on. It was up against the three year old Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, not a new Mario release. You know the difference. Name any switch game that came out in 2018 or later and it probably sold more on its launch week in Japan than Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on the same week.

Right. A three-year head start to accumulate worldwide sales of over 38 million, which combined with the Wii U version adds up to over 47 million copies worldwide.

Across all platforms, CTRNF's final sales numbers put PS4 copies at roughly 4.4M, XBO copies at a little over 1M, and Switch copies at 867K, with estimated player counts being higher than that. However, we have to take into account the fact that A) the PS4 and XBO versions got a full year head-start on the Switch version, meaning many prospective buyers already had a copy for the competing consoles and thus would see less reason to grab the Switch version, and B) Nintendo is infamous for offering the worst online service of the three major console companies, making the prospect of playing CTRNF on Switch less appealing than on PS4 or XBO.

Oh, and let's not forget who beat out Mario Kart 8 Deluxe at the 2019 Game of the Year awards. MK8D outsold CTRNF thanks to brand name and an earlier release date, but CTRNF surpassed MK8D in the eyes of critics thanks to superior quality and quantity of content. I don't recall Mario ever getting an eight month-long series of special events with hyped up racers, new costumes, and new tracks the way Crash did.

Fact is, Crash is successful and popular again, which together with his historic significance makes him all the more suitable for a spot in Smash.

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

From what I remember? People were taking it as a given. Especially with the first Smash Ultimate announcement being Inkling. ARMS was the only other new Nintendo IP made since Smash 4. The expectation was that if ARMS wasn't in the base game, it would be in the DLC. And we were correct in that assumption. 

So where were the videos and fan art diagrams? Not saying there weren't any, just that Crash was much more visible from my experience browsing the net.

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Yep. If we're ever in a timeline where Smash Bros has seven characters from Crash Bandicoot, I expect the inclusion of N. Brio as the eighth will be quite lukewarm indeed. But Fire Emblem's representation in Smash Bros is a whole other beast than Crash, wouldn't you agree?

Aw, now why you gotta do Brio dirty like that? He could have a fun gimmick in the form of his monster transformation! Actually, a lot of Crash characters would be fun to play as in Smash, alongside Crash himself. Cortex, Tawna, N. Brio, Pinstripe Potoroo, N. Gin, Coco, Tiny Tiger, N. Tropy, Dingodile, Crunch, Nina...I think we'd take those over Blue-Haired Swordsman 1, Red-Haired Swordsman, Blue-Haired Swordsman 2, Blue-Haired Swordswoman, White-Haired Mage with a Sword, White-Haired Dragon with a Sword, Blue-Haired Swordsman 3, and Blue-Haired Professor with a Sword and Some Other Weapons. Bandicoots, mad scientists, mutants, and a cybernetic goth girl offer a little more color and variety, I think.

18 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Indeed. All I have to add to that is that PSABR was the first of its franchise, not the third like Brawl was. Every Smash game was developed on top of the previous, after all. I fault Playstation All Stars for a lot of things, but its roster size would be a low blow. Few fully original 3D fighting games manage such large rosters as Brawl did on their first entry. 

And yet they managed two versions of Cole McGrath. I think the devs needed to ask how many people wanted to play Fat Princess over someone like Carmelita Fox or Zeus.

New series or not, PSASBR failed to compete with a game that came out on a much weaker system, both because of the publisher refusing to put nearly enough money into it (not that they probably had enough thanks to the PS3's disastrous launch) and because of the devs themselves making questionable choices all around. It would have been ideal if they'd waited until the PS4 to put out their own Smash-style game, when they'd have more money and hopefully more developers. Or they should have jumped on the bandwagon earlier during the PS2's run, when they only had Melee to compete with and titles like Ratchet & Clank, Jak and Daxter, Sly Cooper, God of War, Devil May Cry, and Kingdom Hearts were still fresh and new. We might even have gotten to see PS1 characters like Solid Snake, Alucard, Lara Croft, Cloud Strife, Mega Man X, Zero, Mega Man Volnutt, Leon Kennedy, Sir Daniel Fortesque, and...oh yeah, Crash and Spyro.

Damn, PSASBR on PS2 could have been awesome. I think I'll make a topic about that one day.

17 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Pitching in on this. From the archived old Naughty Dog website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080728001056/http://www.naughtydog.com/crash/crash/world.htm

"Megumi Hosoya, marketing genius, created the Crash Dance for Crash 1's TV ads in Japan. The success of that campaign influenced Naughty Dog to incorporate the dance into Crash 2 and Warped."

So we have Megumi to thank for the existence of the Crash Dance! One more reason to like Megumi.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Perkilator]

So, here's a bit of a crazy thought: assuming the Switch had the same power and technology as the PS4, how much different do you think Ultimate would be?

[Lord_Brand]

Unless the developers had more personnel, time, and resources, probably not very much. Greater processing power =/= expedited asset creation. Still gotta put together polygons, rigging skeletons, textures, hit boxes, etc. And even if they could, say, process more 3D models in the background and such, that's just more time spent creating and animating 3D models.

If you want a different Smash, you need a different team of developers and/or different asset creation and programming tools.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Fire Emblem Fan]

At most, we'd get a two-four fighters more, but otherwise, yeah, Ultimate probably wouldn't be that much different.

[Perkilator]

I genuinely want to know who or what at SEGA is preventing Smash from getting another Sonic rep. Shadow missed the train as an Echo Fighter and Dr. Eggman missed the train for DLC (the latter of which would've also been good timing for the 30th anniversary).

Edited December 19, 2021 by Perkilator

[Lord_Brand]

I don't think it was SEGA specifically who prevented the devs from adding any further Sonic reps. I'm sure they'd be thrilled to have more of their characters in the roster. It came down to Nintendo choosing who to include based on what licensing deals they could secure, as well as prioritizing based on the development window they allowed for the game (at this point, repping a larger variety of companies took precedence over shoving in a bunch of characters from any one series). That said, it is astounding that Shadow wasn't included as an Echo Fighter, considering he got his start as a gameplay clone of Sonic. And it would have been nice to have Eggman as well. Really, most of the core Sonic cast (Tails, Amy, Metal Sonic, Knuckles, Rouge, Cream, Omega, Blaze, Silver) would be fun to play. It helps that Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle provide lots of good moveset material.

It's also astounding that Zero of all characters didn't make the roster, given how popular he is and how well his gameplay fits Smash (dude literally uses direction + button inputs for many of his techniques in his home series, 80% of his moveset is practically done already). Though I would prefer they add Mega Man X first since he is the series' actual protagonist, but they could announce X and Zero back-to-back, as befits their friendship and partnership.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Smash Bros can have another Sonic character when he comes out with a decent game. Because Sonic has proven to be a statistical anomaly in this regard. Generations and Mania are good, but they're also cheating by relying on reused ideas and content. Show me a 3D Sonic game with fluid controls, new moves, and never leans on 2D side scrolling gameplay as a crutch. 

[Lord_Brand]

Sonic Frontiers just might be what you're looking for, though I wouldn't impose such a harsh condition. Lots of Sonic characters are perfectly viable for Smash, not to mention popular enough that people want them in, so I see no reason not to include more next time. Heck, considering how many of them have material to pull from Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle, I'd say they could easily add three or four new Sonic reps next time, maybe even two at a time.

The four I've seen the most requests for by far are Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow. Fair enough, especially if Shadow is a Sonic Echo, making his moveset a lot faster to design. If only they'd added one of those guys in Smash 4, then Ultimate could have added another and we'd be up to at least three by now.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Sonic Frontiers just might be what you're looking for, though I wouldn't impose such a harsh condition. Lots of Sonic characters are perfectly viable for Smash, not to mention popular enough that people want them in, so I see no reason not to include more next time. Heck, considering how many of them have material to pull from Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle, I'd say they could easily add three or four new Sonic reps next time, maybe even two at a time.

The four I've seen the most requests for by far are Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow. Fair enough, especially if Shadow is a Sonic Echo, making his moveset a lot faster to design. If only they'd added one of those guys in Smash 4, then Ultimate could have added another and we'd be up to at least three by now.

I'm quite surprised they didn't toss Shadow in as a Sonic Clone in Ultimate.  Yeah, I know Shadow fights differently to Sonic with all his time powers and stuff, but a similar design and a different fighting style didn't really stop them putting Dark Samus in as an Echo. Shadow as a Sonic Clone wouldn't be out of place at all. But I guess they already liked him as an assist trophy (though there's lot's of other characters they could use for the same function).

Edited December 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Lord_Brand]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm quite surprised they didn't toss Shadow in as a Sonic Clone in Ultimate.  Yeah, I know Shadow fights differently to Sonic with all his time powers and stuff, but a similar design and a different fighting style didn't really stop them putting Dark Samus in as an Echo. Shadow as a Sonic Clone wouldn't be out of place at all. But I guess they already liked him as an assist trophy (though there's lot's of other characters they could use for the same function).

His fighting style may be distinct now, but it wasn't when he was first introduced - all that Chaos Control stuff was basically cutscene-only, and Sonic showed he's capable of using it too. Definitely the biggest missed opportunity for an Echo Fighter.

As for the role of time slow Assist Trophy, I'd probably use Time Man from the Mega Man series for that, his Special Weapon is literally Time Slow. But then I'm the kind of guy who'd cram as much Mega Man content into the series as possible.

[Perkilator]

You know, part of me wishes they added a new Assist Trophy with each Fighters Pass character. I know it would've been more work, but it would have made the DLC feel more integrated into the game.

[Lightchao42]

Did you think spirit events were over? I did too, but randomly we're getting a new spirit for Street Fighter's 35th anniversary, Evil Ryu.

The Metroid Dread spirits have also entered normal rotation, if you happened to miss them the first time.