Jump to content

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish


Lightchao42
 Share

Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



Recommended Posts

  • Replies 5.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Luigi has become so different from Mario that he barely counts if he counts at all. There's also Peach (very different), Bowser (very different), Rosalina and Luma (very different), Bowser Jr. (very different), and Piranha Plant (very different). 3 is the minority for the Mario characters, and it being 3 is arguable.

Similarly, for Zelda, there are three Links, but there's also Zelda (magic fighter: very different), Ganondorf (Capt. Falcon semi-clone: very different), and Shiek (ninja: very different). 

With Fire Emblem, it's 4 Marths out of 7 fighters. Ike, Robin and Corrin do stand out, but I can very much understand people wanting an FE non-swordsman because they would inherently stand out like Zelda, Ganondorf and Shiek do compared to Link, or Peach, Bowser, Rosalina & Luma, Bowser Jr., and Piranha Plant for Mario. 

I disagree, you can clearly see Luigis core is still Mario. 

Also, Luigi is about as different as Roy, even less so if you ask me.

But in the end, none of that has to do with them using swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

A curveball that would make me super happy (but cause a massive shitstorm) is if we got a DMC rep, but surprise, it's Nero.

Now I'm just imagining a cinematic trailer where a bunch of characters are fighting some villains. And Bowser picks up a truck and throws it. Then when the truck lands against a wall, Nero just walks out like it's no big nbd.

But my ideal Dante trailer is a full recreation of 3's opening cutscene. Only instead of Arkham's "invitation" it's Bayonetta taunting him into a fight. And other smash characters step in as her cronies as we realize they're actually the evil spirits from world of light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

But in the end the complaint is, "there are too many sword users!" That has nothing to do with movesets. Why not complain about fist fighters as well? That, to me, is silly. And don't say "oh it's because there are four Marths!" There are three Mario's, so what makes it different? I personally don't mind clones, really. 

Tell me another saga that has 7 fighters that all use fists. Neither Mario nor Pokemon does that. Unless you coubt as fist everything that is not a weapon.

And i don't like Dr. Mario either, or having both young and toon Link but there are three copies instead of four, wich is the breaking point for me.

Edited by Flere210
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Byleth has more than just swordplay. Byleth starts with boosted Brawl and Authority (used for Battalions), and has a budding talent in Faith (used for white magic). The Divine Pulse can work like Shulk's Vision or Bayonetta's Witch Time, a time manipulating counter used to avoid and punish attacks. Plus there's the matter of Dimitri, Edelgard, and Claude as partners that Byleth can call upon as a nod to how they pick one of the Three Houses  early in TH.

But I doubt any of the DLC will be first party fighters. Yeah, they could use DLC as a means to add first party characters who debuted after Ultimate, like Byleth, but right now it looks like they want to rep as many iconic third party franchises as possible, particularly those that have released on Nintendo consoles. In which case, the yet-to-be-represented ones that stand out most to me are:

Spoiler
  • Crash Bandicoot
  • Spyro the Dragon
  • Chrono Trigger
  • World of Mana
  • Kingdom Hearts
  • Tomb Raider
  • Devil May Cry
  • Tales
  • Soul Calibur
  • Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell
  • Assassin's Creed
  • The Prince of Persia
  • Ninja Gaiden
  • Mortal Kombat
  • Doom
  • The Elder Scrolls
  • Fallout

 

Edited by Lord_Brand
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Tell me another saga that has 7 fighters that all use fists. Neither Mario nor Pokemon does that. Unless you coubt as fist everything that is not a weapon.

And i don't like Dr. Mario either, or having both young and toon Link but there are three copies instead of four, wich is the breaking point for me.

Well, considering Cloud is roped in on this being "another anime swordsman" I figured any series was fair game. Isnt it unfair to say theres any acceptable number of similar characters? Either you like the idea or you dont. I personally dont mind, and either way Lucina does not play 100% like Marth, unlike Dark Pit or Daisy. If anything, I'd call them out first.

See, I dont think swords are an issue, as I've accepted the fact that they have alot of the cast doing similar attacks either way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason why swords are so prolific on protagonists is that they are so flexible compared to most other melee weapons. They aren't limited to stabbing motions like spears. They have a wider hitbox with more defensive utility than axes.

 

Yes, they take more training than other weapons and don't tend to be as useful as spears or polearms in large scale combat situations, but neither of these are barriers to an RPG hero or other protagonist in most stories. 

 

Plus, swords offer a great degree of opportunity for visual customization. The blade, the hilt, the guard, and the spine all offer opportunities for any number of shapes, jewels, runes, lengths, or other custom factors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

The reason why swords are so prolific on protagonists is that they are so flexible compared to most other melee weapons. They aren't limited to stabbing motions like spears. They have a wider hitbox with more defensive utility than axes.

 

Yes, they take more training than other weapons and don't tend to be as useful as spears or polearms in large scale combat situations, but neither of these are barriers to an RPG hero or other protagonist in most stories. 

 

Plus, swords offer a great degree of opportunity for visual customization. The blade, the hilt, the guard, and the spine all offer opportunities for any number of shapes, jewels, runes, lengths, or other custom factors.

This is a stereotype. Not only spears can be used for more than stabbing, some weapons are way more flexible than sword. The poleaxe, a weapon that is pretty much never used in fiction is by far the most flexible weapon in medieval combat. A sword is more prqctical to carry around usually, but not if it's oversized like it often is in JRPG.

Also, you can attach any kind of highly customized sword to a stick and make a polearm out of it, so polearms are more customizable, as you can modify the stick too.

The reason swords are always the hero weapon is because they are seen as the most vanilla weapon or because it's a status symbol in certain cultures.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Etheus said:

They have a wider hitbox with more defensive utility than axes.

I don't think they actually consider this when making characters, but it sounds nice. And looking at Terry's hitboxes... they definitely don't consider it. ;):

37 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Plus, swords offer a great degree of opportunity for visual customization. The blade, the hilt, the guard, and the spine all offer opportunities for any number of shapes, jewels, runes, lengths, or other custom factors.

I think anything has the potential to be unique, but don't hold your breath with them taking advantage of the capabilities.

 

Edited by lightcosmo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

This is a stereotype. Not only spears can be used for more than stabbing, some weapons are way more flexible than sword. The poleaxe, a weapon that is pretty much never used in fiction is by far the most flexible weapon in medieval combat. A sword is more prqctical to carry around usually, but not if it's oversized like it often is in JRPG.

Also, you can attach any kind of highly customized sword to a stick and make a polearm out of it, so polearms are more customizable, as you can modify the stick too.

The reason swords are always the hero weapon is because they are seen as the most vanilla weapon or because it's a status symbol in certain cultures.

 

Referring to a polearm as "any sword on a stick" is reductive and doesn't really give me confidence that you actually have any input other than "swords bad."

 

Not that I have anything against polearms or axes. I actually like them quite a lot, and one of my favorite weapons in all of gaming is God of War 2018's axe, which is oh so satisfying and weighty in its every attack. 

 

3 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I don't think they actually consider this when making characters, but it sounds nice.

I think anything has the potential to be unique, but don't hold your breath with them taking advantage of the capabilities.

 

For Smash, no. In general, yes. The millions of unique (and often wildly impractical) swords in gaming are testament to the developers love for the weapon and its visual flexibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Referring to a polearm as "any sword on a stick" is reductive and doesn't really give me confidence that you actually have any input other than "swords bad."

I have not said that, i said that a sword put on a stick count as a polearm, so swords cannot be more custonizable than polearms. Sure, some looks ridicoulus and are impractical  but so are most JRPG swords. There are also many polearm types that looks nothing like swords, so they are not just more customizable, they are more customizable by an huge degree. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Etheus said:

For Smash, no. In general, yes. The millions of unique (and often wildly impractical) swords in gaming are testament to the developers love for the weapon and its visual flexibility.

But we're talking about smash, the game with three Falchions, which I would say... isn't very unique. Even their sword trails are all blue, which could have easily been changed to yellow like they should be.

And again, I don't think games consider hitboxes as part of their design, that just sounds silly.

I don't think it's fair to punish other weapon types as much as it's unfair to punish anything that isn't a sword. Why should there be exceptions? It could always be, y'know, equal?

Edited by lightcosmo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I have not said that, i said that a sword put on a stick count as a polearm, so swords cannot be more custonizable than polearms. Sure, some looks ridicoulus and are impractical  but so are most JRPG swords. There are also many polearm types that looks nothing like swords, so they are not just more customizable, they are more customizable by an huge degree. 

So then I have a rather equally reductive question for you.

 

Would not a polearm that constitutes a sword on a stick be nothing more than a sword with a greatly elongated hilt? Ergo, equally customizable to a sword.

 

Because we've pretty much seen that. The laguz slayer in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance has such an elongated hilt (longer than the blade, in fact) that it damn near constitutes a polearm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Etheus said:

So then I have a rather equally reductive question for you.

 

Would not a polearm that constitutes a sword on a stick be nothing more than a sword with a greatly elongated hilt? Ergo, equally customizable to a sword.

 

Because we've pretty much seen that. The laguz slayer in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance has such an elongated hilt (longer than the blade, in fact) that it damn near constitutes a polearm. 

Path of Radiance does discriminate between sword, axes and lances, not between swords and polearms. Based on PoR the halberd is an axe. The laguzslayer is actually cery similar to a swordstaff, a scandinavian polearm that actually existed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I disagree, you can clearly see Luigis core is still Mario. 

Also, Luigi is about as different as Roy, even less so if you ask me.

But in the end, none of that has to do with them using swords.

That's because, as I said twice now; I agree that just saying "Too many swords" is a bad argument. But the "4 out of 7 FE fighters are Marths" complaint is a completely different (and sound) criticism. I was responding to your complaint about the "4 out of 7 are Marths" argument; not the sword argument. I don't know how I could have made that more clear. 

 

7 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Byleth has more than just swordplay. Byleth starts with boosted Brawl and Authority (used for Battalions), and has a budding talent in Faith (used for white magic). The Divine Pulse can work like Shulk's Vision or Bayonetta's Witch Time, a time manipulating counter used to avoid and punish attacks. Plus there's the matter of Dimitri, Edelgard, and Claude as partners that Byleth can call upon as a nod to how they pick one of the Three Houses  early in TH.

Agree that he has more than swords. The problem is that everything he has, has been done, as you kindly already showed with Divine Pulse. Byleth would make the most sense acting in the background like Pokémon Trainer for Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude. 

 

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

The reason why swords are so prolific on protagonists is that they are so flexible compared to most other melee weapons. They aren't limited to stabbing motions like spears. They have a wider hitbox with more defensive utility than axes.

Have you seen what kinds of things can be done with spears in a dueling scenario? It's a lot more than just stabbing motions. Note that I'm specifying a dueling scenario; in a battlefield scenario, yes, a spear is limited to stabbing motions. But you want to know what a sword was limited to doing on the battlefield? Sitting in the scabbard and doing nothing unless the main weapon breaks. 

Similarly, axes can do quite a bit as well. Ultimately, yes, the sword is more versatile. But to suggest that spears and axes are too limited is nonsense. The reason swords are more common among protagonists is that they were sidearms: everyone who could afford one would carry one because you could take it with you wherever you went; something you couldn't do with battlefield weapons like spears and axes.

 

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

This is a stereotype. Not only spears can be used for more than stabbing, some weapons are way more flexible than sword. The poleaxe, a weapon that is pretty much never used in fiction is by far the most flexible weapon in medieval combat. A sword is more practical to carry around usually, but not if it's oversized like it often is in JRPG.

Also, you can attach any kind of highly customized sword to a stick and make a polearm out of it, so polearms are more customizable, as you can modify the stick too.

The reason swords are always the hero weapon is because they are seen as the most vanilla weapon or because it's a status symbol in certain cultures.

This. Very much this. 

 

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Referring to a polearm as "any sword on a stick" is reductive and doesn't really give me confidence that you actually have any input other than "swords bad."

He didn't. He said that any sword can be put on a stick and made into a polearm (which is true except for greatswords, which are already polearms because of how massive they are); not that all polearms are swords on sticks. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Path of Radiance does discriminate between sword, axes and lances, not between swords and polearms. Based on PoR the halberd is an axe. The laguzslayer is actually very similar to a swordstaff, a scandinavian polearm that actually existed. 

Agreed, although I would like to point out that there are two big differences between a swordstaff and the laguzslayer: the swordstaff has a longer handle and a straight blade. The laguzslayer has more in common with the nagamaki: a Japanese sword/spear hybrid. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

That's because, as I said twice now; I agree that just saying "Too many swords" is a bad argument. But the "4 out of 7 FE fighters are Marths" complaint is a completely different (and sound) criticism. I was responding to your complaint about the "4 out of 7 are Marths" argument; not the sword argument. I don't know how I could have made that more clear. 

I'm not complaining about the fact that there are four Marths because, I dont care. What im saying is, they would be hated on regardless because they use swords, like Cloud is for the same reason. This game lacks uniqueness, let's face it. There is really only so many options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I'm not complaining about the fact that there are four Marths because, I dont care. What im saying is, they would be hated on regardless because they use swords, like Cloud is for the same reason. This game lacks uniqueness, let's face it. There is really only so many options.

Then why did you bring it up? 

Quote

And don't say "oh it's because there are four Marths!" There are three Mario's, so what makes it different? I personally don't mind clones, really. 

I was merely responding to that particular statement you made; I had even bolded that particular statement to make it clear that that was the one to which I was responding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

This game lacks uniqueness, let's face it. There is really only so many options.

Bullshit. 

Plenty of fighters in Smash have their own unique moveset in the game. Only ones that are "the same" are the echo fighters, the two other Links, and Dr. Mario. So that's like, what, 10 out the current 82 fighters in Smash Ultimate? No offense, but I don't know where you got the idea that all of them are somehow "the same".

Regarding the whole "Sword Stigma" Argument, I've said time and time again it's makes no sense. Just because a character fights with a sword doesn't mean he/she can't offer up a good moveset. That goes for nearly every other character that has been suggested for Smash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

Bullshit. 

Plenty of fighters in Smash have their own unique moveset in the game. Only ones that are "the same" are the echo fighters, the two other Links, and Dr. Mario. So that's like, what, 10 out the current 82 fighters in Smash Ultimate? No offense, but I don't know where you got the idea that all of them are somehow "the same".

Regarding the whole "Sword Stigma" Argument, I've said time and time again it's makes no sense. Just because a character fights with a sword doesn't mean he/she can't offer up a good moveset. That goes for nearly every other character that has been suggested for Smash.

Alot of the movesets feel "fake", to me. Fake conversions, etc. Aside from a few characters, of course. They forced combos so hard in this game to where it feels uninteresting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

Alot of the movesets feel "fake", to me. Fake conversions, etc. Aside from a few characters, of course. They forced combos so hard in this game to where it feels uninteresting.

So, all of the other movesets are "fake" to you.

Nevermind that they're original. Nevermind that they fit the character they're attached to. Nevermind that they're nowhere even near close to being "clone material". Nevermind that the developer worked himself to injury to make these movesets.

They're "fake".

I'm done. I've heard bad arugements against Smash before, but this is by far the dumbest I've ever heard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some characters that do need new movesets come Smash 6 (if they aren't removed in a reboot), but most are damn good.

 

Ganondorf - complete redo. He is not living up to any of his massive potential whatsoever.

Ike - give him the damn shockwave. Though honestly, I'd consolidate all FE swordsmen into the Marth moveset and replace Dolphin Slash with Aether and Shield Breaker with Shockwave.

Samus - consistently one of the weakest characters across all games. Recombine with ZSS and tone up the power of her hits so that regular Samus can be a designated finisher after ZSS damages the foe. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

So, all of the other movesets are "fake" to you.

Nevermind that they're original. Nevermind that they fit the character they're attached to. Nevermind that they're nowhere even near close to being "clone material". Nevermind that the developer worked himself to injury to make these movesets.

They're "fake".

I'm done. I've heard bad arugements against Smash before, but this is by far the dumbest I've ever heard.

Okay, before calling me "dumb" maybe you should think about it.

Most the cast goes to down throw to up air or bair, to me this is boring. It's not fun to watch or use. Why not create different conversions? And dont tell me it's impossible, please. Maybe your just comfortable with the game taking little skill to play, i dont know.

those conversions are forced or fake. However you want to say it, it doesnt matter.

I just want to see something fresh, is all. And it's far from impossible to accomplish. See Marth/Roy in melee. Or Fox/Falco.

Edited by lightcosmo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Okay, before calling me "dumb" maybe you should think about it.

Most the cast goes to down throw to up air or bair, to me this is boring. It's not fun to watch or use. Why not create different conversions? And dont tell me it's impossible, please. Maybe your just comfortable with the game taking little skill to play, i dont know.

those conversions are forced or fake. However you want to say it, it doesnt matter.

I just want to see something fresh, is all. And it's far from impossible to accomplish. See Marth/Roy in melee. Or Fox/Falco.

One, that's really nitpicky. 

 

Two, a semi-unified control scheme is a good thing and should be encouraged. Having natural, common elements helps players branch out and makes the game more intuitive to play.

 

In fact, they should take it further. No aberrant controls whatsoever. No quarter circle special inputs. At all. For anyone. Those are what "fake" and inorganic actually feel like, when the same input can be achieved with a single button press like everyone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Okay, before calling me "dumb" maybe you should think about it.

I have. It's stupid. This is Olypmic Gold Medal levels of Mental Gymnastics here.

33 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Most the cast goes to down throw to up air or bait, to me this is boring. It's not fun to watch or use. Why not create different conversions?

That doesn't make all the characters the same. Yes, many characters can do that, but that doesn't mean it's the optimal strategy.

33 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Maybe your just comfortable with the game taking little skill to play, i dont know.

Tell that to all of the professional Smash players and see how far that gets you pal.

Now if you're done spitting takes that only a Tumbrl account would agree with, I ain't wasting time with this nonsense.

Edited by Roland
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...