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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish


Lightchao42
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Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



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18 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

I won't deny that Sora certainly has moveset potential for Smash. And he's high-profile. My primary concern are the Disney elements, like the Mickey Mouse shape of his Keyblade's keychain. Nintendo in the past had two strict rules about who can get into Smash:  

  1. The character must have originated in a video game (thereby omitting Goku, Shrek, etc.)
  2. The character must have appeared in a game on a Nintendo console (Cloud barely qualified thanks to Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories)

Granted, they seem to have relaxed that a bit with Joker, but Joker's series at least has appeared on Nintendo platforms before, and P5 might well debut on the Switch itself in the near future. Sora himself does technically meet those two requirements, but how does Nintendo feel about the Disney elements? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy aren't video game originals (even if they certainly have made plenty of appearances on Nintendo consoles). If they're allowed in, that throws the doors wide open for Goku, Shrek, etc. On the other hand, Sora's design could be edited so all Disney references are omitted; the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Keyblade could be switched over to a crown or a heart. But of course, Sora is co-owned by Disney and Square Enix, so Disney still has to give their approval, and they have to be paid as well.

The one loophole I could maybe see Nintendo exercising is that the Kingdom Hearts versions of Mickey and the gang specifically are treated as video game-originated adaptations of the characters, much like how Castlevania's Dracula is clearly an adaptation of a non-video game character in a video game-specific form. So, the Kingdom Hearts-specific versions of Mickey and the gang, and only those versions, could appear in the game.

Even if Sora made it into Smash, Square Enix has been notoriously stingy with their FF and DQ content compared to Capcom, Konami, and SNK's generous content offerings. We'd be lucky to get Sora, his stage, a handful of songs, and maybe one page of Spirits. And if not for SE's stinginess, there's still the matter of having to pay Disney as well.

Sora was playable in Dream Drop Distance, Chain of Memories, and 358/2 Days, all of which were on the DS family. He would also probably voiced in Japanese to the actors of Square Enix being Union Based. Disney and Nintendo are on good terms apparently according to Disney, and Sora barely appears on Disney merchandise, so I don’t think it’s out of mind to allow Sora in Smash. Mickey might be a whole another question though, and I wonder if those two rules also apply to Spirits and assist trophies?

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8 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I won't deny that Sora certainly has moveset potential for Smash. And he's high-profile. My primary concern are the Disney elements, like the Mickey Mouse shape of his Keyblade's keychain. Nintendo in the past had two strict rules about who can get into Smash:  

  1. The character must have originated in a video game (thereby omitting Goku, Shrek, etc.)
  2. The character must have appeared in a game on a Nintendo console (Cloud barely qualified thanks to Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories)

Granted, they seem to have relaxed that a bit with Joker, but Joker's series at least has appeared on Nintendo platforms before, and P5 might well debut on the Switch itself in the near future. Sora himself does technically meet those two requirements, but how does Nintendo feel about the Disney elements? Mickey, Donald, and Goofy aren't video game originals (even if they certainly have made plenty of appearances on Nintendo consoles). If they're allowed in, that throws the doors wide open for Goku, Shrek, etc. On the other hand, Sora's design could be edited so all Disney references are omitted; the Mickey Mouse keychain on the Keyblade could be switched over to a crown or a heart. But of course, Sora is co-owned by Disney and Square Enix, so Disney still has to give their approval, and they have to be paid as well.

The one loophole I could maybe see Nintendo exercising is that the Kingdom Hearts versions of Mickey and the gang specifically are treated as video game-originated adaptations of the characters, much like how Castlevania's Dracula is clearly an adaptation of a non-video game character in a video game-specific form. So, the Kingdom Hearts-specific versions of Mickey and the gang, and only those versions, could appear in the game.

Even if Sora made it into Smash, Square Enix has been notoriously stingy with their FF and DQ content compared to Capcom, Konami, and SNK's generous content offerings. We'd be lucky to get Sora, his stage, a handful of songs, and maybe one page of Spirits. And if not for SE's stinginess, there's still the matter of having to pay Disney as well.

Those strict rules have never been in existence. It's just logic fans have applied to roster selection without anyone input from Nintendo. There used to be other so called rules like that they needed to be a fighter of some sort before people like Villager disproved it (and obviously before Brawl people assumed "Only Nintendo characters" was a rule). Nintendo even had a pole before melee's release and James Bond was on it (Golden Eye was still ragingly popular at the time) and he obviously didn't originate in a video game. The proximity mines from Golden Eye even made it into 64 and Melee, though probably because of licensing reasons they were labelled "TOP SECRET" on the Melee trophy rather than revealing what game they came from.

8 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

Sora was playable in Dream Drop Distance, Chain of Memories, and 358/2 Days, all of which were on the DS family. He would also probably voiced in Japanese to the actors of Square Enix being Union Based. Disney and Nintendo are on good terms apparently according to Disney, and Sora barely appears on Disney merchandise, so I don’t think it’s out of mind to allow Sora in Smash. Mickey might be a whole another question though, and I wonder if those two rules also apply to Spirits and assist trophies?

Does Chain of Memories count as DS family? Because that originated on Game Boy Advance. Maybe you forgot Chain of Memories and were thinking of Coded which is the other DS game (though originally it was a mobile game, because back then it seemed like Enix were going out of there way to make Kingdom Hearts the most costly franchise ever to be a fan of).

Not to mention the entire Shin Megami Tensi series originated from a book.

Edited by Jotari
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6 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Considering they need to deal whit Disney to get Sora, they could as well grab Luke Skywalker or Ironman.

Not gonna happen. Sakurai specifically wants to make Smash video-games only, and I doubt Disney wouldn’t keep that in mind, since Sora is originated from a video game.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Those strict rules have never been in existence. It's just logic fans have applied to roster selection without anyone input from Nintendo. There used to be other so called rules like that they needed to be a fighter of some sort before people like Villager disproved it (and obviously before Brawl people assumed "Only Nintendo characters" was a rule). Nintendo even had a pole before melee's release and James Bond was on it (Golden Eye was still ragingly popular at the time) and he obviously didn't originate in a video game. The proximity mines from Golden Eye even made it into 64 and Melee, though probably because of licensing reasons they were labelled "TOP SECRET" on the Melee trophy rather than revealing what game they came from.

I could have sworn Nintendo had put out those two rules during Brawl's release. They make sense, that Nintendo would want to focus on notable video game characters who have featured on Nintendo consoles. Was Joanna Dark on the same poll? Perfect Dark was pretty much the spiritual sequel to GoldenEye 007. Labeling the Mines' origins as "TOP SECRET" is quite fitting considering they come from a secret agent-themed stealth shooter.

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The only hard rule is the "Character is from a videogame" thing.

Sakurai had put down non-Videogame characters several times after all.

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7 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I could have sworn Nintendo had put out those two rules during Brawl's release. They make sense, that Nintendo would want to focus on notable video game characters who have featured on Nintendo consoles. Was Joanna Dark on the same poll? Perfect Dark was pretty much the spiritual sequel to GoldenEye 007. Labeling the Mines' origins as "TOP SECRET" is quite fitting considering they come from a secret agent-themed stealth shooter.

The Proximity mines were in the original Smash Bros. before perfect dark's release and they used the exact same design as Golden Eye. Later they were altered to the more sci-fi design of Perfect Dark's Proximity Mines.

Find me a statement saying those are rules and...well it wouldn't change my mind, as all we'd have is a ten+ year old statement. Sakurai also said he didn't think they should put Ridley in Smash.

2 hours ago, Troykv said:

The only hard rule is the "Character is from a videogame" thing.

Sakurai had put down non-Videogame characters several times after all.

Guess Medusa and Hades fans should just give up then because those characters come from mythology.

Counter argument: People want the specific Kid Icarus incarnations of those characters.

Counter counter argument: Basically every character one could want in has been in a video game of some sort that you could target as an incarnation. Unless one is suggesting something completely outlandish like the Dali Lama or something (who I don't know, probably has been in a video game).

I'm not in favour of any "non video game characters". I just think it erroneous to attribute rules to this beyond "Sakurai thinks it will make a good game."

Edited by Jotari
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14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Those strict rules have never been in existence. It's just logic fans have applied to roster selection without anyone input from Nintendo. There used to be other so called rules like that they needed to be a fighter of some sort before people like Villager disproved it (and obviously before Brawl people assumed "Only Nintendo characters" was a rule). Nintendo even had a pole before melee's release and James Bond was on it (Golden Eye was still ragingly popular at the time) and he obviously didn't originate in a video game. The proximity mines from Golden Eye even made it into 64 and Melee, though probably because of licensing reasons they were labelled "TOP SECRET" on the Melee trophy rather than revealing what game they came from.

Does Chain of Memories count as DS family? Because that originated on Game Boy Advance. Maybe you forgot Chain of Memories and were thinking of Coded which is the other DS game (though originally it was a mobile game, because back then it seemed like Enix were going out of there way to make Kingdom Hearts the most costly franchise ever to be a fan of).

Not to mention the entire Shin Megami Tensi series originated from a book.

My bad I meant Re:Coded not Chain of Memories.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Counter counter argument: Basically every character one could want in has been in a video game of some sort that you could target as an incarnation. Unless one is suggesting something completely outlandish like the Dali Lama or something (who I don't know, probably has been in a video game).

That's not a very good counter counter. Characters like Hades and Medusa from Kid Icarus are based on mythological beings, but they themselves are video game original characters. This can't be said for Mickey Mouse.

The "video game characters only" rule is definitely one Sakurai has gone on record for in one way or another, and fairly recently at that. It's the only one, though. While he did once mention that he'd like characters who have appeared on Nintendo consoles, even then it never came off as a hard "rule," and I don't think it matters at all anymore even if everyone currently in *technically* passes it.

On the topic of Sora, he's not happening. Sakurai wouldn't put him in without any Disney references and I doubt Nintendo wants to go that far for DLC.

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Agreed. Sora has no chance. Disney doesn't even trust Nomura with its IPs very much, I've heard they more or less forbade real character interactions in KHIII between Nomura's OCs and the Frozen cast.

A friendship got Snake in IIRC, Capcom's friendliness with Nintendo allowed Mega Man and Ryu/Ken, good terms with Sega got Sonic and Bayonetta (which Nintendo published the sequel of). Atlus is now owned by Sega, and outside of mainline Persona itself (ironic) is very friendly to Nintendo. Namco has shared in Smash development now and so we have Pac Man. SNK is trying to revive itself. Microsoft was willing to be nice to Nintendo. Konami is a dead game developer turned pachinko company that gave a little love to its dead-in-the-games IP.

Square and Disney- do they at all have a certain amicability with Nintendo? They'll release games on their systems, but do we know of any particular statements or moves of goodwill? I don't know.

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8 hours ago, Florete said:

 

That's not a very good counter counter. Characters like Hades and Medusa from Kid Icarus are based on mythological beings, but they themselves are video game original characters. This can't be said for Mickey Mouse.

And basically any character you can imagine has appeared in a video game of some form and can be the basis of an incarnation and moveset. Let me put it this way. Imagine instead of it being a one off, Mike Tyson got super close to Nintendo and there were a bunch more Punch Out games all featuring Mike Tyson as some sort of final or secret boss. Would it be entirely unreasonable then to discount Mike Tyson as being a viable candidate for Smash? The only criteria is if Sakurai thinks it's a good choice (and if it's legally feasible). If a very appropriate and popular character came along Sakurai wouldn't say "Damn. I'd love to put this character in the game, but the rule book says I can't because it was based on a book." James Bond was considered for Melee. The fact that he didn't originate from a game was a concern, along with the fact that he used realistic guns and, most definitely the biggest issue, the nightmare of licencing such a character. But those things were hurdles. If there was a rule then he wouldn't have been considered at all and the other reasons for him not being included wouldn't have even been stated. And, as I've already stated, it's already happened for an item with Golden Eye's incarnation of the Proximity Mines being in the first two games.

Proximty Mine in Golden Eye the movie (actually this is a time mine but it's clearly the design the game used for all the mines)

Image result for golden eye movie mines

Proximity Mine in Golden Eye the game

Proxy Mine

Proximty Mine in Super Smash Bros. (64)

MotionSensorBombIconSSB.png

If Sakurai thinks it's a good choice, he'll do it. I don't expect he'll ever see Spongebob or Shrek as a good choice, but if he does think a character who didn't originate in a game is a good choice, Nintendo is willing to pay the licencing fee and the original creator is willing to do it, then it'll happen. Not being from a video game is like Ridley's size, it's a concern, but it doesn't make it impossible. Nothing is impossible.

Edited by Jotari
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I don't see Sora having much chance, but's that's purely because of Disney. If it were just Square Enix, there'd be no problem, as we've seen with Cloud and DQ Hero. 

However, if Sora does get in, that would mean 3 Square Enix characters. I suppose that wouldn't be too many, since we technically have 3 Konami characters as playable fighters (2 + an Echo Fighter). Still, it might make more since for them to look elsewhere before picking another Square Enix character. 

In short, I want Claude Wallace/Welkin Gunther in Smash Bros.

Edited by vanguard333
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25 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

However, if Sora does get in, that would mean 3 Square Enix characters. I suppose that wouldn't be too many, since we technically have 3 Konami characters as playable fighters (2 + an Echi Fighter). Still, it might make more since for them to look elsewhere before picking another Square Enix character. 

Echi fighter!?

Image result for super sexy bros.

9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Unpopular opinion, but I don't actually want Sora. Sora without Donald and Goofy is just a diet Final Fantasy character.

 

If we were to get another Square character, I'd want it to be from Octopath or NieR. 

No love for Chrono?

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Echi fighter!?

Image result for super sexy bros.

No love for Chrono?

Chrono would be alright. I wouldn't mind it. 

 

I'd just rather have 2B (insane moveset potemtial and top tier music) or Alfyn (axe & alchemy moveset, great soundtrack, potentially beautiful stage).

Edited by Etheus
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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

And basically any character you can imagine has appeared in a video game of some form and can be the basis of an incarnation and moveset. Let me put it this way. Imagine instead of it being a one off, Mike Tyson got super close to Nintendo and there were a bunch more Punch Out games all featuring Mike Tyson as some sort of final or secret boss. Would it be entirely unreasonable then to discount Mike Tyson as being a viable candidate for Smash? The only criteria is if Sakurai thinks it's a good choice (and if it's legally feasible). If a very appropriate and popular character came along Sakurai wouldn't say "Damn. I'd love to put this character in the game, but the rule book says I can't because it was based on a book." James Bond was considered for Melee. The fact that he didn't originate from a game was a concern, along with the fact that he used realistic guns and, most definitely the biggest issue, the nightmare of licencing such a character. But those things were hurdles. If there was a rule then he wouldn't have been considered at all and the other reasons for him not being included wouldn't have even been stated. And, as I've already stated, it's already happened for an item with Golden Eye's incarnation of the Proximity Mines being in the first two games.

Yeah, I would still discount Mike Tyson, just as I discount Goku and Geralt despite their video game legacies. Are they impossible? No, Sakurai could always surprise us. But he's gone on record within the year saying he can't see anime and manga characters getting added, and yeah, that's a specific medium, but I don't see why it wouldn't extend to other non-video game characters.

The James Bond thing is weird, but it was also during the development of the second game in the series, a long time ago now and when such personal rules may not have been considered yet because the series was still finding its focus. If you're not going to accept stuff Sakurai said in Brawl's development, I'm not going to take stuff he said in Melee's development.

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4 hours ago, Etheus said:

Chrono would be alright. I wouldn't mind it. 

 

I'd just rather have 2B (insane moveset potemtial and top tier music) or Alfyn (axe & alchemy moveset, great soundtrack, potentially beautiful stage).

2B on the game that nerfed ZSS and Snake's asses is going to be super watered down. Considering how much of a Madman Yoko Taro is, i see him refusing to have her in smash because of that lol.

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10 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

2B on the game that nerfed ZSS and Snake's asses is going to be super watered down. Considering how much of a Madman Yoko Taro is, i see him refusing to have her in smash because of that lol.

That would be a controversy worthy of epic poetry.

 

We will call it SmASS Gate

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23 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

2B on the game that nerfed ZSS and Snake's asses is going to be super watered down. Considering how much of a Madman Yoko Taro is, i see him refusing to have her in smash because of that lol.

Watered down how? 2B isn't Bayonetta, she just wears a skirt.

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21 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I like Sora's moveset potential decently enough, but meh. We already got a Square character. You know the ideal character action character ought to be the man that first rocked that sub subgenre - Dante.

I wonder how many fans will ship Bayonetta/Dante if he gets added to Smash? Oh, who am I kidding, fans already ship them.

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Echo Fighter. Thanks for pointing out that typo. Not sure that I get the joke though. 

Here's a Wikipedia article on the "Ecchi" slang term. Basically, it' s a term that refers to works with sexual overtones, hence the pictures of Smash characters in suggestive poses and clothing (good boys and girls of all ages, my foot).

Personally, I feel either Ryu Hayabusa or Crash Bandicoot are likely options.

Ryu is part of the NES old guard along with Mario, Link, Samus, Pit, Mega Man, and Simon Belmont, and as a sidescrolling action hero he'd be a perfect fit for Smash. Since Ryu has appeared in the Dead or Alive series as well, he's also a gateway for references to and representation of that series (though fan-favorite Kasumi will be left out for the same reasons as Mai Shiranui). Plus he represents Tecmo Koei, who have yet to get a rep.

Meanwhile, Crash is a major video game icon of the 90s, once seen as Sony's answer to Mario and Sonic, so that right there makes him perfect for Smash, especially now that the N. Sane Trilogy and CTRNF are available on Switch. Crash of course would be rep Activision, another company yet to receive representation in Smash.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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25 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

I wonder how many fans will ship Bayonetta/Dante if he gets added to Smash? Oh, who am I kidding, fans already ship them.

Ship them? Eww. No, fans just debate who would win in a fight and when we're going to get that crossover game.

And who the hell is Chrono? It's Crono. 

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