Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Anacybele]

37 minutes ago, Armagon said:

They used to be on the tier-list, yes, but because Miis are banned from competitive play, they are now unranked. Or rather, because custom moves are banned and the Miis are so poor without them and literally no one wants to use them competitively, the Miis went unranked. 

I never did agree with banning custom moves. Certain characters were better with them than without and it wasn't fair to them. Ike might've been considered high tier, for example, because Close Combat was nuts and I think one of this variations of Eruption was better than the original too.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Anacybele

[thecrimsonflash]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I never did agree with banning custom moves. Certain characters were better with them than without and it wasn't fair to them. Ike might've been considered high tier, for example, because Close Combat was nuts.

it's probably for the better, close combas was quick draw, but with zero drawbacks.

then there are characters like zelda who had custom moves which were notably worse than her regular moves.

[Armagon]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I never did agree with banning custom moves. Certain characters were better with them than without and it wasn't fair to them. Ike might've been considered high tier, for example, because Close Combat was nuts and I think one of this variations of Eruption was better than the original too.

There's actually legitimate reasons for banning customs. Taken from the Smash Wiki

Quote

Custom movesets, however, proved a controversial topic in the timespan from their legalization to EVO 2015. While some players thought it helped to make the metagame of Smash 4 deeper, a number of players felt that the inclusion of custom movesets in tournaments hurt the integrity of the game, as it introduced far too many potential matchups, and it provided opportunities for players to use movesets that their opponents may not have had any experience with.

Some players also claimed that the extent custom movesets helped characters was unfair. A number of bottom-tiered characters, such as Zelda, Jigglypuff and King Dedede, were argued to gain little to no benefit from custom movesets, and some high-tiered characters, such as Diddy Kong and Sheik, were also argued to actually gain even further benefits from their custom movesets, leading to further imbalance in Smash 4. Some custom movesets were also argued to have created degenerate gameplay for some characters, with characters such as Sonic and Donkey Kong gaining powerful options that most players found unfun or frustrating to deal with. Villager especially became controversial for his custom movesets, with Mew2King citing him as the reason certain custom moves should be banned, specifically referencing a match where ADHDdefeated Nairo with a custom Villager, despite considering Nairo the stronger player. The release of Mewtwo, the first DLC character, was also claimed to have created further imbalance, as Mewtwo and all other DLC characters lacked custom moves of any sort, preventing DLC characters from gaining any potential benefits.

Tournament organizers also felt that the need to create custom movesets, regardless if they were pre-set or not, reduced the number of potential setups players could bring to tournaments, as unlocking all the potential custom moves required considerable time and effort from players; unlike unlockable characters or unlockable stages, custom partscould only be attained through specialized methods that did not guarantee a new custom move. As the Official Custom Moveset Project also required a "master" 3DS console for each Wii U setup, this meant that players who owned a Wii U, but not a 3DS, to be unable to use their Wii U as a setup. Furthermore, the laborious process of unlocking custom moves was made slightly more efficient with the 3DS version of the game, meaning that players without the 3DS version of the game would likely have greater difficulty in unlocking all the custom movesets.

Outside of the above, there was debate over how effectively the Official Custom Moveset Project could police itself; on top of having 52 characters with 8 movesets each, it was questioned how well the staff behind the project could monitor which movesets proved too weak or strong, as well as who would get a say in what moveset combinations were too strong.

 

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

There's actually legitimate reasons for banning customs. Taken from the Smash Wiki

I know of the reasons.

I just don't think all of them should've been banned. Maybe a few that were too ridiculous, but certainly some of them would've been fine.

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I just don't think all of them should've been banned. Maybe a few that were too ridiculous, but certainly some of them would've been fine.

That still creates an unnecessary unbalance. Banning only certain customs would be beneficial to some characters and detrimental to others. 

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

That still creates an unnecessary unbalance. Banning only certain customs would be beneficial to some characters and detrimental to others. 

And banning all of them has done the same thing in my opinion.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And banning all of them has done the same thing in my opinion.

Except it objectively didn't. If some characters are stuck to their default movesets while others can use customs, then that's not fair.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Except it objectively didn't. If some characters are stuck to their default movesets while others can use customs, then that's not fair.

If some low-tiered characters who would be more viable with custom moves couldn't use them, that's not fair either. Also, we already have characters who are stuck to their defaults no matter what because of the DLC characters not having customs at all.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

If some low-tiered characters who would be more viable with custom moves couldn't use them, that's not fair either.

No, it is fair. Because if you're limiting customs to just the low-tiers, then that creates an unfair situation because anyone who isn't a low-tier isn't allowed to use customs. It's like if they turned on items, but only low-tiers could use them. 

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Also, we already have characters who are stuck to their defaults no matter what because of the DLC characters not having customs at all.

Exactly. The DLC characters lack access to customs moves so allowing customs would objectively be unfair to those who main the DLC characters.

[DisobeyedCargo]

theoretically one skilled enough could best any character no matter if customs are involved

[Anacybele]

Just now, Armagon said:

No, it is fair. Because if you're limiting customs to just the low-tiers, then that creates an unfair situation because anyone who isn't a low-tier isn't allowed to use customs. It's like if they turned on items, but only low-tiers could use them. 

No, it isn't fair. If you're not letting lower tier characters use their better moveset options, you're not letting people who enjoy using those characters have a chance with them at their full potential in tournaments. Higher tiered characters don't need the help, so they're not being hurt. The lower tiered characters would be helped though.

[Comet]

You'd have to get Smash 4 players to agree on a list of low tiers first (this will never happen), and where the cutoff point would be.

i also think the glass is half empty

Edited June 17, 2018 by Comet

[Interdimensional Observer]

Since we know New Donk City is getting in, and its related musical piece Jump Up, Super Star! too, I'm wondering what else will be added to the great music collection of Smash?

I want Super Star's Japanese and 8-bit renditions as well, and the SMO story ending Break Free (Lead the Way) should hopefully be thrown in too.

Not sure what Breath of the Wild has, since it is largely ambient silence, but the interior and exterior alike of Hyrule Castle do sound awesome. 

Smash already uses its own remix of With Mila's Divine Protection, adding another to reference SoV (and I wonder if there is any new FE stage in the works- I'll doubt it) would be pleasant.

Regardless of whether it gets a stage or not, XC2 (even though I haven't still touched it yet) should deserve to get some music in, and maybe a stray XCX number.

But perhaps of greater interest to me is what new remixes and medleys of old tracks Smash comes up with this time. The Brawl's eclectic Donkey Kong remix for 75M, the jazzy Meta Knight's Revenge, Melee's takes on the Earthbound stuff, all good. 

And then you have Smash 4 remixing The Valedictory Elegy, now I find it inferior to the original The Valedictory Elegy, most because it lacks that key crescendo later on. But I bring it up since its origin game- Baten Kaitos: Origins- is neither a well-known classic, like Donkey Kong, nor old being only GC era. I'd have thought any chance the BK duology would have had at getting anything in Smash would have died after Brawl, and case in point, they got rid of the Issac AT in Smash 4, with Golden Sun being of the same era as BK. And yet it is Smash 4 which adds a TVE remix for no real reason, it is just there. 

To get to the point on for the above paragraph, Smash remixes can be anything and everything, which makes them a bit of a surprise and very enjoyable.

[Armagon]

10 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

theoretically one skilled enough could best any character no matter if customs are involved

You aren't wrong but there still needs to be an element of fairness. That's why customs are banned. When tier-lists are decided, it's assumed that everyone has an equal amount of skill. When you start adding factors like customs and items, skill starts to matter less, especially if you decide to limit it to certain characters. For example, you've got a Mario player and a Luigi player, both have equal skill. Now, the Luigi player is allowed to change his moveset but the Mario player isn't. This creates an unfair situation because the Luigi player is able to change his moveset where as the Mario player is limited to the default moveset. Now, if the Mario player is more skilled, he can win, but scenarios like this always assume both sides have the equal amount of skill. 

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

No, it isn't fair. If you're not letting lower tier characters use their better moveset options, you're not letting people who enjoy using those characters have a chance with them at their full potential in tournaments. Higher tiered characters don't need the help, so they're not being hurt. The lower tiered characters would be helped though.

That's not unfair. That's just how the game works. That's how any fighting game works. Some characters are just better than others, simple as that. There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced fighting game, as much as Thanos would like you to believe. If a character is low-tier, that's because, as i mentioned before, scenarios in which two players of equal skill were taken into account to determine a character's viability. A low-tier character can beat a higher-tiered one if the player is skilled enough. Just look at CEO 2016, where Prince Ramen, using Palutena, a low-tier character, defeated ZeRo, the man who is considered to be the world's best Smash 4 player.

And i already explained why allowing some characters to use customs and not others is unfair.

[DisobeyedCargo]

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

You aren't wrong but there still needs to be an element of fairness. That's why customs are banned. When tier-lists are decided, it's assumed that everyone has an equal amount of skill. When you start adding factors like customs and items, skill starts to matter less, especially if you decide to limit it to certain characters. For example, you've got a Mario player and a Luigi player, both have equal skill. Now, the Luigi player is allowed to change his moveset but the Mario player isn't. This creates an unfair situation because the Luigi player is able to change his moveset where as the Mario player is limited to the default moveset. Now, if the Mario player is more skilled, he can win, but scenarios like this always assume both sides have the equal amount of skill. 

That's not unfair. That's just how the game works. That's how any fighting game works. Some characters are just better than others, simple as that. There's no such thing as a perfectly balanced fighting game, as much as Thanos would like you to believe. If a character is low-tier, that's because, as i mentioned before, scenarios in which two players of equal skill were taken into account to determine a character's viability. A low-tier character can beat a higher-tiered one if the player is skilled enough. Just look at CEO 2016, where Prince Ramen, using Palutena, a low-tier character, defeated ZeRo, the man who is considered to be the world's best Smash 4 player.

And i already explained why allowing some characters to use customs and not others is unfair.

I agree with you there 

customs should be for fun matches with your friends to mess around with 

[Dai]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

No, it isn't fair. If you're not letting lower tier characters use their better moveset options, you're not letting people who enjoy using those characters have a chance with them at their full potential in tournaments. Higher tiered characters don't need the help, so they're not being hurt. The lower tiered characters would be helped though.

Given that the folks that banned them live and breathe Smash, I’d say that gives them plenty of sway. Consider this, though: either everybody has options, or no does.

[Laser Taro]

I agree with others. Allowing only a number of characters to get customs is unneeded. You would have a lot of debate over who should use them and if you go through the trouble of getting them, why not have everyone use them?

[Armagon]

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not sure what Breath of the Wild has, since it is largely ambient silence, but the interior and exterior alike of Hyrule Castle do sound awesome. 

Breath of the Wild's main theme is already a song in Ultimate. Seems they took the song from the 2016 E3 trailer. Besides that and the Hyrule Castle theme that you suggested, they could also use the town themes. The Attack on Vah Ruta theme would be pretty good too.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Regardless of whether it gets a stage or not, XC2 (even though I haven't still touched it yet) should deserve to get some music in, and maybe a stray XCX number.

Yeah, there's a lot of good songs they could pull from XC2 or XCX. Preferably keep them original and not remix them like they did with Smash 4's Xenoblade soundtracks but i wouldn't mind remixes if they did happen.

Out of all the Xenoblade songs they can pick though, one of them absolutely has to be the Empire of Mor Ardain theme.  That's one of the top 5 best songs in XC2 and my favorite area theme in the series.

12 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

customs should be for fun matches with your friends to mess around with 

Oh definitely. Even though they'll undoubtedly be banned if they returned, i want to be able to use my ultra-broken Shulk again. What i do is i max out (or come close to) his attack and then equip a critical hit badge. Add in Power Vision and then counter like, a light Smash attack. Power Vision kills at like 20% lol. 

[DisobeyedCargo]

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Breath of the Wild's main theme is already a song in Ultimate. Seems they took the song from the 2016 E3 trailer. Besides that and the Hyrule Castle theme that you suggested, they could also use the town themes. The Attack on Vah Ruta theme would be pretty good too.

Yeah, there's a lot of good songs they could pull from XC2 or XCX. Preferably keep them original and not remix them like they did with Smash 4's Xenoblade soundtracks but i wouldn't mind remixes if they did happen.

Out of all the Xenoblade songs they can pick though, one of them absolutely has to be the Empire of Mor Ardain theme.  That's one of the top 5 best songs in XC2 and my favorite area theme in the series.

Oh definitely. Even though they'll undoubtedly be banned if they returned, i want to be able to use my ultra-broken Shulk again. What i do is i max out (or come close to) his attack and then equip a critical hit badge. Add in Power Vision and then counter like, a light Smash attack. Power Vision kills at like 20% lol. 

Omg I do that to it's like my upperdash arm set in KIU I love it 

Edited June 17, 2018 by DisobeyedCargo

[Florete]

3 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Hanenbow is pretty reviled, and so might not return simply due to nobody liking it. Even 75M has its fans.

I like Hanenbow...

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

and then equip a critical hit badge

Badges, these things were neat and not overpowering, useful for getting through single player and definitely better than Stickers. Plus they were fun to toy with in the other modes, although I will say getting Agility real high made things dysfunctional with every jump being a superjump thus throwing the aerial game out the window and past Mercury. Giving everyone near max Attack however, fun quick battles.

[Silverly]

I’m kind of irritated Pac-Land was chosen over Pac-Maze. I hate side scrolling stages so much, and who even cares about Pac-Land? Pac-Maze was a pretty creative stage based on a classic game, and it’s far more recognizable.

On the other hand, good riddance to Gamer. The mother gimmick always annoyed the hell out of me.   And about time they left Melee Yoshi’s Island behind. Those blocks in the middle of the stage can die. I’m also of the unpopular opinion that I liked Hannenbow. I don’t see how it can hated any more than, say, Mario Bros (which is a guilty pleasure of mine), aside from the awkward positioning. It’s a pretty stage and unique in set-up.

Edited June 17, 2018 by SilvertheShadow

[thecrimsonflash]

32 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Smash already uses its own remix of With Mila's Divine Protection, adding another to reference SoV (and I wonder if there is any new FE stage in the works- I'll doubt it) would be pleasant.

Regardless of whether it gets a stage or not, XC2 (even though I haven't still touched it yet) should deserve to get some music in, and maybe a stray XCX number.

I think fire emblem has as good a stage selection as it could have I had an idea for a stage based on the gba arena where it uses the gba graphics and uses the arena combatants as stage hazards, apart from that concept, I can't think of much else they could do for a new fire emblem stage.

I personally would like to get the tyrant and overdrive themes from XCX.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Zelda can hold the charge once it's full and move around but i don't think it's the same as storing it. 

So like Megan's Leif Shield as opposed to Donkey Kong's Giant Punch? That's marginally better than being kept locked to one spot, but I still doubt it'll be too useful a move unless it's been given some damage buffs to compensate.

[Anacybele]

As much as I could keep debating this topic, I'm tired and just don't want to talk about it anymore anyway. And sorry, but I just will not agree on the banning of custom moves and I never will.