Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[thecrimsonflash]

2 hours ago, NoirCore said:

I think in Celica's case, that'd be too different to be considered an Echo, but Chrom is Roy with Ike's Up+B, so who knows. As for Micaiah, I dunno if they have any rules where the character they Echo must be from the same series, given that's been the case for everyone so far.

I disagree, magic is an incredibly malleable thing in fire emblem with few mages actually having a unique tome, celica has thunder which in SoV acts similarly to thoron in smash bros (long range, literally just flip it on it's side and you have thoron, and thunder magic in weaker forms are generally a ball of lightning, no one would complain and it works just fine), ragnarok (fire magic, easy to repurpose, much like arcfire, worst case, arcfire+ exists in smash 4), robin can't use nosferatu, celica can't use nosferatu, both are associated with groups who employ them heavily, celica has excalibur which could be a stronger elwind which only goes once but pushes her further up, otherwise celica has wind magic which is still malleable and can be made into whatever it needs to be.

[Lord-Zero]

While I really dislike Celica and her sudden surge in popularity by the western fanbase, she’d be better off as a Zelda Echo. Giving her Pichu’s terrible gimmick to a tweaked Robin moveset is a recipe for disappointment. Heck, I’d much rather have Nino or even Leo as the Echo instead. As for Zack, meh, it’d make sense from a lore perspective but it’s such a boring choice. Cloud is pretty speedy as he is, what would Zack be? A slower Cloud with more power in his moves...? I’d prefer Eliwood or even Zephiel as the Echo. One has fire and the other has lightning as their elements. 

 

[Johann]

53 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I disagree, magic is an incredibly malleable thing in fire emblem with few mages actually having a unique tome, celica has thunder which in SoV acts similarly to thoron in smash bros (long range, literally just flip it on it's side and you have thoron, and thunder magic in weaker forms are generally a ball of lightning, no one would complain and it works just fine), ragnarok (fire magic, easy to repurpose, much like arcfire, worst case, arcfire+ exists in smash 4), robin can't use nosferatu, celica can't use nosferatu, both are associated with groups who employ them heavily, celica has excalibur which could be a stronger elwind which only goes once but pushes her further up, otherwise celica has wind magic which is still malleable and can be made into whatever it needs to be.

Yeah Smash has zero problems breaking some of the rules of the home games in the interest of providing full movesets or to prevent having to make brand new ones. Ness and Lucas can't use those offensive PK spells, including their Final Smashes, for instance. I think most people are just happy to have their character in the game, regardless of how accurate to the home series their moves are (which is usually made up for by how much detail is given to their design).

I personally would love to see Celica in the game, and it'd be good for FE representation to have a cut off on the blue hairs

[Troykv]

4 hours ago, NoirCore said:

I think in Celica's case, that'd be too different to be considered an Echo, but Chrom is Roy with Ike's Up+B, so who knows. As for Micaiah, I dunno if they have any rules where the character they Echo must be from the same series, given that's been the case for everyone so far.

That would be fun :D (I actually like Zelda's moveset)... Do you think in that case Micaiah would change the Down B for something else from other similarly modeled character?

[Lord-Zero]

14 minutes ago, Troykv said:

That would be fun :D (I actually like Zelda's moveset)... Do you think in that case Micaiah would change the Down B for something else from other similarly modeled character?

They can always give her a tweaked Nosferatu animation and have her do a different spell. That or...that actually becomes Black Knight. 

[Lightchao42]

Thus far Echo Fighters have been a way to add popular characters who wouldn't be included any other way, so I don't expect the developers to add five billion of them just because they can. Daisy regularly appears in games that sell millions, Chrom and Dark Samus were specifically added due to popular demand, and Richter is close to Simon in terms of popularity and importance to his series (apparently), so only characters with those qualities should be included.

[Jedi]

17 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

Thus far Echo Fighters have been a way to add popular characters who wouldn't be included any other way, so I don't expect the developers to add five billion of them just because they can. Daisy regularly appears in games that sell millions, Chrom and Dark Samus were specifically added due to popular demand, and Richter is close to Simon in terms of popularity and importance to his series (apparently), so only characters with those qualities should be included.

Richter also made me even more hopeful for Shadow, because he broke up a rule some people made up that 3rd parties can't have Echoes. 

Heck, Richter & Chrom broke open several theories, A that 3rd parties can't have Echoes and B they have to be 100% based on the originals moveset. 

Chrom has Roy's moves but no hilt mechanic along with Ike's aether (with a slightly different animation to boot) and a different final smash, which makes me think if they do Shadow, he'll have like Mewtwo's teleport as his recovery instead of Sonic's spring and maybe more. 

Heck if Ken got in they could give him Falcon Kick to reference his more fiery based moves, along with making his other moves fiery.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Jedi

[Laser Taro]

I'm not expecting a huge amount of Echo fighters, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got around the number of clones in Melee or higher. I could also see more third party Echoes like Shadow, Ken, and Kazuya if Heihachi is a newcomer.

[Armagon]

On the subject of Echo Fighters, this Direct really makes it seem like they aren't counting towards the newcomer total. While Richter, Chrom, Daisy and Dark Samus are newcomers, the fact that they not only share the same numbers as their originals, but also sharing the same slot as their original in the CSS (if you turn it on), is really driving home the idea that Echo Fighters don't count towards the newcomer total.

[The DanMan]

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

On the subject of Echo Fighters, this Direct really makes it seem like they aren't counting towards the newcomer total. While Richter, Chrom, Daisy and Dark Samus are newcomers, the fact that they not only share the same numbers as their originals, but also sharing the same slot as their original in the CSS (if you turn it on), is really driving home the idea that Echo Fighters don't count towards the newcomer total.

They take only a small fraction of the resources unique newcomers would; as soon as they codified the term "Echo Fighter" I expected them to be used to pad out the newcomers like that. I'm expecting 6-8 unique newcomers total and about as many Echoes.

3 hours ago, Jedi said:

Chrom has Roy's moves but no hilt mechanic along with Ike's aether (with a slightly different animation to boot) and a different final smash, which makes me think if they do Shadow, he'll have like Mewtwo's teleport as his recovery instead of Sonic's spring and maybe more. 

Heck if Ken got in they could give him Falcon Kick to reference his more fiery based moves, along with making his other moves fiery.

With Chrom opening up the door, that would be a decent compromise-- letting them keep some identity while still being 98% clone.

[Lord_Brand]

Ken having a fiery shoryuken would be true to his home series, so highly likely.

If Shadow does use Chaos Control as his recovery, I hope he doesn't say it every single time he uses it. I'd rather he save the vocalization for his Final Smash, so it can be all big and epic like "CHAOS...CONTROL!" Incidentally, I could also see Shadow using a move similar to Fox Illusion as his side special, again flavored as using Chaos Control to teleport and, in this case, attack. Furthermore, they could make Shadow's roll attacks fiery as a nod to the Fire Ring upgrade in SA2.

[Jedi]

For those of you who may want to know what moves came from Richter 

 

[thecrimsonflash]

4 hours ago, Laser Taro said:

I'm not expecting a huge amount of Echo fighters, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got around the number of clones in Melee or higher. I could also see more third party Echoes like Shadow, Ken, and Kazuya if Heihachi is a newcomer.

at least this game's ratio between clones and origional characters won't be as bad. 

19 minutes ago, Jedi said:

For those of you who may want to know what moves came from Richter 

I really want that conversation between dracula and richter to be in ultimate in some way, I mean they did reference it in the reveal trailer with richter saying "You don't belong in this world", but to get the whole thing would be a real treat.

[Silverly]

So apparently there's only 15 stages that haven't been added to Ultimate (yet), and I have watched the GameXplain video with one of the guys making guesses which stages might return and which ones might remain cut.

Imo, I think Pac-Maze (it would be a fucking crime to exclude this faithful, interesting stage over that ugly, annoying side scrolling Pac-Land which hardly anyone remembers), Rainbow Road, Wooly World, Orbital Gate Assault, and Jungle Hijinks. 

I'm iffy on Poke Floats (it's a fun and unique stage but I'm unsure of it's priority due to all the Pokemon stages we have) , Mute City (Port Town Aero Drive might make this redundant but it has its own flare compared to the other stage "upgrades"), and Pictochat (actually not a Flat Zone X; it's a the Pokemon Stadium to Pokemon Stadium 2 but I'm not sure how much priority it has). 

Planet Zebes (old Brinstar), Sector Z (old Corneria), Mushroom Kingdom for Melee (new... Mushroom Kingdom 64), Pyrosphere (kinda awkward with Ridley being included), Rumble Falls (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), Icicle Mountain (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), and Miiverse (lol) will definitely be out. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

For those of you who may want to know what moves came from Richter 

 

The only thing I knew of Ricter before this direct was that he's the Kung Fu Belmont...I guess that's all I still really know about him.

1 hour ago, SilvertheShadow said:

So apparently there's only 15 stages that haven't been added to Ultimate (yet), and I have watched the GameXplain video with one of the guys making guesses which stages might return and which ones might remain cut.

Imo, I think Pac-Maze (it would be a fucking crime to exclude this faithful, interesting stage over that ugly, annoying side scrolling Pac-Land which hardly anyone remembers), Rainbow Road, Wooly World, Orbital Gate Assault, and Jungle Hijinks. 

I'm iffy on Poke Floats (it's a fun and unique stage but I'm unsure of it's priority due to all the Pokemon stages we have) , Mute City (Port Town Aero Drive might make this redundant but it has its own flare compared to the other stage "upgrades"), and Pictochat (actually not a Flat Zone X; it's a the Pokemon Stadium to Pokemon Stadium 2 but I'm not sure how much priority it has). 

Planet Zebes (old Brinstar), Sector Z (old Corneria), Mushroom Kingdom for Melee (new... Mushroom Kingdom 64), Pyrosphere (kinda awkward with Ridley being included), Rumble Falls (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), Icicle Mountain (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), and Miiverse (lol) will definitely be out. 

Castlevanhia has like a million songs and Fire Emblem over half a dozen characters. I don't think they're particularly concerned about equal balance among series at this point. That is to say, I doubt it's outside the realm of their willingness to give us like ten pokemon stages.

[Florete]

1 hour ago, SilvertheShadow said:

So apparently there's only 15 stages that haven't been added to Ultimate (yet), and I have watched the GameXplain video with one of the guys making guesses which stages might return and which ones might remain cut.

Imo, I think Pac-Maze (it would be a fucking crime to exclude this faithful, interesting stage over that ugly, annoying side scrolling Pac-Land which hardly anyone remembers), Rainbow Road, Wooly World, Orbital Gate Assault, and Jungle Hijinks. 

I'm iffy on Poke Floats (it's a fun and unique stage but I'm unsure of it's priority due to all the Pokemon stages we have) , Mute City (Port Town Aero Drive might make this redundant but it has its own flare compared to the other stage "upgrades"), and Pictochat (actually not a Flat Zone X; it's a the Pokemon Stadium to Pokemon Stadium 2 but I'm not sure how much priority it has). 

Planet Zebes (old Brinstar), Sector Z (old Corneria), Mushroom Kingdom for Melee (new... Mushroom Kingdom 64), Pyrosphere (kinda awkward with Ridley being included), Rumble Falls (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), Icicle Mountain (unpopular vertical scrolling stage), and Miiverse (lol) will definitely be out. 

Poke Floats may have issues with just making it. That's a lot of models.

Melee's Mushroom Kingdom is nothing like 64's, and we've seen that having the same name isn't an issue, so there's no reason for this to be left out.

I'm 50/50 on Pyrosphere. They could just take Ridley out of it and it's still a plenty good stage.

Rumble Falls wasn't popular, but plenty of returning stages weren't (Hanenbow, Mario Bros., etc.). This game introduced ladder attacks and ladders were a big part of Rumble Falls, so I'd actually be surprised if this one didn't return.

[PersonWithTime]

1 hour ago, SilvertheShadow said:

Imo, I think Pac-Maze (it would be a fucking crime to exclude this faithful, interesting stage over that ugly, annoying side scrolling Pac-Land which hardly anyone remembers),

This! Right here! the 3DS Pac-Man stage was wonderful.

3 minutes ago, Florete said:

Poke Floats may have issues with just making it. That's a lot of models.

I'm 50/50 on Pyrosphere. They could just take Ridley out of it and it's still a plenty good stage.

I would love it if Poke Floats came back, my friends and I would go on that stage and not attack each other, but just try to survive the many jumps. We were young, it was fun.

I also liked Pyrosphere as a Stage but I really wanted Brinstar Depths and I got that so I'm happy!

I'd love it so much if they included Mute City from Melee, I feel like that stage is a classic but I also feel like I'm the only one that thinks that.

At least they have Peach's Castle from Melee, Delfino Plaza, That Galaxy Stage and now New Donk City. I'm totally gonna play all of those in Morph Mode! It'll be like going through Mario's history!

[Interdimensional Observer]

33 minutes ago, Jotari said:

he only thing I knew of Ricter before this direct was that he's the Kung Fu Belmont...I guess that's all I still really know about him.

Castlevania isn't really known for having deep characters or anything. Particularly in the very arcadey, old and original, "Classicvania" era. The "Metroidvania" era, and the Lords of Shadow trilogy did try for more depth, but Metroidvania era still had fairly weak stories.

Richter came from the last of the Classicvanias in Castlevania: Rondo of Blood (well Bloodlines came later, but it lacks a Belmont). It's a pretty good game in its own right, inventing the awesome Item Crash super attacks to boot. Although I've heard musings saying Super Castlevania IV (Castlevania's first adventure remade for SNES featuring Simon) and Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse (the last NES game, featuring Trevor Belmont and one ally of three) are as good or better.

Owing to having pretty good 2D sprite assets, the monsters from the game were reused in large numbers in Symphony of the Night, a sequel of sorts to Rondo of Blood and the first Metroidvania, where Richter got possessed. For the next five Metroidvanias (I'm not sure of Order of Ecclesia- the last of the Metroidvanias), the enemies of Rondo of Blood would be frequently recycled into them to cut costs.

Richter himself is playable upon completing Symphony of the Night in his own mode. And he was again playable after completing the game in Portrait of Ruin if you fought the Whip's Memory. Basically Jonathan Morris Jr. as a non-Belmont using the Vampire Killer, has to undergo a ritual involving fighting an "AI" based on the last Belmont to use the whip to unlock its full power. And the last Belmont to use the Vampire Killer is Richter, thus the Whip's Memory looks like him.

Why the Belmonts are forbidden from touching the whip for centuries is unexplained, but it might have to do with Richter getting possessed in Symphony of the Night, tainting his bloodline by having fallen under the powers of darkness. It isn't until 1999, two-hundred years later, that a Belmont uses the Vampire Killer again- Julius. And this said, Richter is ever so slightly implicitly alluded to in Order of Ecclesia as the old village lady's grandfather.

[Lord_Brand]

Could Roll work as a Mega Man Echo? Since Proto Man and Bass aren't likely, indicated by their different physiques and appearance in Mega Man's Final Smash.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Lord_Brand

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just now, Lord_Brand said:

Could Roll work as a Mega Man Echo?

Well she is usable as basically that in Mega Man Powered Up I think. Although I'd rather Protoman, Bass, or even X for Mega echoes. However give Classic Mega Man doesn't have such a form as to suit Bass (who has never had a 3D downsized body before I think) or X, it'd have to be Protoman or Roll as his echo.

[Johann]

13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Castlevania isn't really known for having deep characters or anything

The Netflix show though, so good

[Dai]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

The Netflix show though, so good

Yes. I have high hoped for season 2.

[Armagon]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although I'd rather Protoman, Bass, or even X for Mega echoes. However give Classic Mega Man doesn't have such a form as to suit Bass (who has never had a 3D downsized body before I think) or X, it'd have to be Protoman or Roll as his echo.

Unfortunately, Protoman and Bass were deconfirmed the moment they showed up in X's Final Smash.

That said, i don't think form is an issue for Echo Characters. A lot of Echo Characters do match their originals in terms of size but i don't think it's a requirement. If they weren't already in Mega Man's Final Smash, Bass, Protoman and X could very easily work as a Mega Man Echo.

[Jedi]

13 minutes ago, Johann said:

The Netflix show though, so good

I wish I could enjoy it like most people, but I personally can't stand it. 

Glad it's doing something for the franchise though despite my dislike.

[Dai]

7 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I wish I could enjoy it like most people, but I personally can't stand it. 

Glad it's doing something for the franchise though despite my dislike.

Out of curiosity, what’s your gripe with it?