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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish


Lightchao42
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Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



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5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Okay, but since it was obviously not intended to offend, why change it? Why make a big deal of it? We know the reason for these spirit battle pairings, and it wasn't malicious, so...?

Because presentation is important. You don't just show something without considering how the audience will react, and you should present stuff as tastefully as you can. A lack of awareness isn't always excusable.

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16 minutes ago, Jave said:

 

And no, nobody is trying to ruin anyone's fun with this. Most game-changing scenario here is that Nintendo issues an apology, the game gets a patch where the Spirit battles gets changed to remove the offensive stuff, and that's it. It's not going to make the game any less fun.

I think if I were a Japanese business executive and I had to go back and edit the game my reaction would be to make a mandate of "No more black or Indian characters from here on out period. The pay off of more interesting and diverse characters isn't worth the risk of unintentionally offending based on cultural things were clueless about." Which I think is the opposite of what we actually want, but if controversy is so frequent like this then it'd be by far the preferable business decision.

Edited by Jotari
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4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yes, it is a racist thing to do. But in this case, it wasn't actually purposely portrayed that way. Nintendo wasn't doing that, so they were not being racist and I feel people are making too big a deal out of it because of that. If Nintendo HAD intentionally insulted black people, I would totally understand where people are coming from here. I'm not saying calling out racism is wrong, I'm saying calling something racist when it definitely isn't is wrong and immature.

Nintendo isn't racist. So calling them that for one little battle in one of their games is way overreaching.

EDIT: Then I guess we agree to disagree, Jave.

I'm going to say it again because you're not getting it: Whether it's intentional or not, racism is racism. Even if it was meant with the best intentions, even if it was done by someone who genuinely didn't know. It doesn't necessarily mean that person is a piece of shit, but the responsible thing for them to do is own up to it, apologize, and fix what they did. To weasel out of doing the responsible thing is what's wrong and immature, and can perpetuate that racist behavior in that person and others because they think it's not a problem.

Nobody is calling Nintendo a racist company over this, we're calling these depictions racist. All that is being asked is to change these depictions.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I think if I were a Japanese business executive and I had to go back and edit the game my reaction would be to make a mandate of "No more black or Indian characters from here on out period. The pay off of more interesting and diverse characters isn't worth the risk of unintentionally offending based on cultural things were clueless about."

That would be really fucking racist and ignorant, and the backlash would be huge. Nintendo could really use more diversity in its characters and opting to stay clueless is in no way a sensible strategy for any business.

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6 minutes ago, Johann said:

I'm going to say it again because you're not getting it: Whether it's intentional or not, racism is racism. Even if it was meant with the best intentions, even if it was done by someone who genuinely didn't know. It doesn't necessarily mean that person is a piece of shit, but the responsible thing for them to do is own up to it, apologize, and fix what they did. To weasel out of doing the responsible thing is what's wrong and immature, and can perpetuate that racist behavior in that person and others because they think it's not a problem.

Nobody is calling Nintendo a racist company over this, we're calling these depictions racist. All that is being asked is to change these depictions.

That would be really fucking racist and ignorant, and the backlash would be huge. Nintendo could really use more diversity in its characters and opting to stay clueless is in no way a sensible strategy for any business.

Well they wouldn't necessarily need to announce it to the public, that would be idiotic. But an in-house statement of "Don't create characters part of an extant culture and make all characters racially ambiguous." Yeah, I think that would be a wise reaction if people keep demanding they change their games. Why should they try if someone somewhere is going to get offended by whatever they do? What motivation is there for diversity if people get angry about half the characters you make?

And I think Ana does get you, she just doesn't agree with you 

Edited by Jotari
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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Well they wouldn't necessarily need to announce it to the public, that would be idiotic. But an in-house statement of "Don't create characters part of an extant culture and make all characters racially ambiguous." Yeah, I think that would be a wise reaction if people keep demanding they change their games. Why should they try if someone somewhere is going to get offended by whatever they do? What motivation is there for diversity if people get angry about half the characters you make?

On the contrary, they're getting a huge positive reception from their newer diverse characters. Twintelle is easily far more popular than the boring Spring Man, for instance, and many people sing strong praises about the Gerudo in Breath of the Wild (especially Urbosa). Their biggest mistakes have been from old embarrassments, like the G&W Native American thing, or faux pas like these spirit battles.

What they need to do is keep making good new playable characters, and flesh out underutilized ones that exist. Having Peach and Zelda be playable in mainline games, for instance, is and exciting prospect for a lot of players.

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1 minute ago, Johann said:

On the contrary, they're getting a huge positive reception from their newer diverse characters. Twintelle is easily far more popular than the boring Spring Man, for instance, and many people sing strong praises about the Gerudo in Breath of the Wild (especially Urbosa). Their biggest mistakes have been from old embarrassments, like the G&W Native American thing, or faux pas like these spirit battles.

What they need to do is keep making good new playable characters, and flesh out underutilized ones that exist. Having Peach and Zelda be playable in mainline games, for instance, is and exciting prospect for a lot of players.

Well I'm not seriously suggesting Nintendo actually does that (and to be doubly clear it's definitely not something I personally want them to do). What I was doing was pointing out a potential reaction to kicking up a fuss about something minor. Nintendo didn't even create one of the characters in this example. The point is, Nintendo is going to view this situation from a capitalist perspective, not a racist and not a moral one. And controversy hits much harder than praise. If the potential losses outweigh the potential gains, then they'll simply avoid the issue entirely.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I'm not seriously suggesting Nintendo actually does that (and to be doubly clear it's definitely not something I personally want them to do). What I was doing was pointing out a potential reaction to kicking up a fuss about something minor. Nintendo didn't even create one of the characters in this example. The point is, Nintendo is going to view this situation from a capitalist perspective, not a racist and not a moral one. And controversy hits much harder than praise. If the potential losses outweigh the potential gains, then they'll simply avoid the issue entirely.

The Gerudo are actually a good example of this. People (myself included, I wish we saw them in a lot more games) like their portrayal in Breath of the Wild where they're part of the good guys, but imagine for a second we got Ocarina of Time in 2017 instead of Breath of the Wild. In our more PC and sensitive era, I could definitely see them being controversial. A race of dark skinned women being depicted as the villains, living in a desert and wanting  to invade the European ninspired land, and all under the thumb of a man they're culturally obliged to worship based solely on his gender. It wouldn't matter if the Gerudo accept Link into their tribe or that one of the heroes were a Gerudo, I think people would still go apeshit. If that happened and people complained about the Gerudo, then I doubt they would have reappeared in Breath of the Wild twenty years later. We actually have a pretty good source of reference here with the Islamic imagery that was originally included in Ocarina of Time and has been replaced in every subsequent incarnation.

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4 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Anyone know if Lyn's Spirit is on the World of Light map, or is it a Spirit Board battle thing?

I 100%ed World of Light before encountering her for the first time in spirit board. She's a three star tier, so it may be a while before you encounter her.

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Man, you know what my favorite kind of Super Smash Bros discussion is? Whether or not certain depictions in the game is racist.

So here are my two cents: it doesn't matter.  Those Spirit Battles were made with references to the original characters and games in mind. Race was not a factor and never was.

There are far bigger things to complain about. If something as irrelevant as a Spirit Battle from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch genuianly offends you, then lock your doors and board your windows because the outside world is much crueler.

3 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Anyone know if Lyn's Spirit is on the World of Light map, or is it a Spirit Board battle thing?

I think it's on the Spirit Board.

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4 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Anyone know if Lyn's Spirit is on the World of Light map, or is it a Spirit Board battle thing?

Board battle, but I think it can show up in stores.

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10 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Anyone know if Lyn's Spirit is on the World of Light map, or is it a Spirit Board battle thing?

She became my strongest spirit after I enhanced her at four-star, 12000 attack.

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37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I'm not seriously suggesting Nintendo actually does that (and to be doubly clear it's definitely not something I personally want them to do). What I was doing was pointing out a potential reaction to kicking up a fuss about something minor. Nintendo didn't even create one of the characters in this example. The point is, Nintendo is going to view this situation from a capitalist perspective, not a racist and not a moral one. And controversy hits much harder than praise. If the potential losses outweigh the potential gains, then they'll simply avoid the issue entirely.

I think Nintendo's brand and strategy has been thoroughly established to be as inclusive as they can, and to change its direction like that would throw years of marketing, analysis, and R&D. They'd garner much more criticism if they straight up abandoned that.

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The Gerudo are actually a good example of this. People (myself included, I wish we saw them in a lot more games) like their portrayal in Breath of the Wild where they're part of the good guys, but imagine for a second we got Ocarina of Time in 2017 instead of Breath of the Wild. In our more PC and sensitive era, I could definitely see them being controversial. A race of dark skinned women being depicted as the villains, living in a desert and wanting  to invade the European ninspired land, and all under the thumb of a man they're culturally obliged to worship based solely on his gender. It wouldn't matter if the Gerudo accept Link into their tribe or that one of the heroes were a Gerudo, I think people would still go apeshit. If that happened and people complained about the Gerudo, then I doubt they would have reappeared in Breath of the Wild twenty years later. We actually have a pretty good source of reference here with the Islamic imagery that was originally included in Ocarina of Time and has been replaced in every subsequent incarnation.

OoT's Gerudo were pretty shallowly designed, yeah, but I dunno if they'd abandon the idea rather than revise it as they have. BotW is the first time we've actually seen a Sheikah community, with very little to go on from previous games, and that turned out good, so who's to say that they would have goofed it with Gerudo if 2017 was their first outing?

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Man, you know what my favorite kind of Super Smash Bros discussion is? Whether or not certain depictions in the game is racist.

So here are my two cents: it doesn't matter.  Those Spirit Battles were made with references to the original characters and games in mind. Race was not a factor and never was.

There are far bigger things to complain about. If something as irrelevant as a Spirit Battle from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch genuianly offends you, then lock your doors and board your windows because the outside world is much crueler.

Oh jeez pack it up everybody, this guy isn't having fun. How dare we want our games to be better, excuse us for giving a shit that racism is a thing

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24 minutes ago, Johann said:

Oh jeez pack it up everybody, this guy isn't having fun. How dare we want our games to be better, excuse us for giving a shit that racism is a thing

It's amazing how i exepected this exact kind of response. I honestly don't care if it gets changed or not because it's not gonna make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

We live in an age where everyone gets offended at everything and the moment anyone gets offended at anything, it has to be changed even if it doesn't actually matter. What next, is someone gonna throw up a huge stink because the Fatal Frame girl, an Asian, being represented by Zelda, a white European, is "white washing"? (Spoilers: it's not but someone on Resetera or Twitter will probably say it is).

Speaking of being offended, are you actually upset at these Spirit Battle depictions or are you just being upset because other people might find them upsetting? Because usually, usually, the people complaining about things like these aren't actually the people that are supposed to supposedly be offended by it. This isn't the case 100% of the time obviously but it's something i've noticed.

If you get upset, fine whatever. But don't start a crusade over things this miniscule just because it hurts your feelings.

All i want to do is play the game and even if there was something that mildly upset me, i'm not gonna stop playing the game and demand that Nintendo change it. The world caters to no one.

I really don't want this debate to continue. Both because it's already tiring and also because if it keeps going, then mod action might happen.

Edited by Armagon
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Before deciding if those spirit battles should be considered racist, I would want to know two things:

  1. Are there other spirit battles where Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong are being used for lighter-skinned characters?
  2. Are there other spirit battles where black characters are portrayed by someone who isn't a Kong?

If there are, and depending on how many, I think calling out those spirit battles as racist is pushing it. But otherwise, yeah, it's not a good look.

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1 minute ago, Armagon said:

It's amazing how i exepected this exact kind of response. I honestly don't care if it gets changed or not because it's not gonna make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

We live in an age where everyone gets offended at everything and the moment anyone gets offended at anything, it has to be changed even if it doesn't actually matter. What next, is someone gonna throw up a huge stink because the Fatal Frame girl, an Asian, being represented by Zelda, a white European, is "white washing"? (Spoilers: it's not but someone on Resetera or Twitter will probably say it is).

Speaking of being offended, are you actually upset at these Spirit Battle depictions or are you just being upset because other people might find them upsetting? Because usually, usually, the people complaining about things like these aren't actually the people that are supposed to supposedly be offended by it. This isn't the case 100% of the time obviously but it's something i've noticed.

If you get upset, fine whatever. But don't start a crusade over things this miniscule just because it hurts your feelings.

All i want to do is play the game and even if there was something that mildly upset me, i'm not gonna stop playing the game and demand that Nintendo change it. The world caters to no one.

For someone who doesn't care, you're writing up an awful lot about how everyone who's bothered by it are the real problem and coming up with "what's next" slippery slope scenarios as if everything is turning to shit. Just because you don't give a shit about what other people have to deal with doesn't mean it's not an issue. Do you not know that monkey, ape, etc are used as racial slurs against black people? Do you not know that a lot of people hold the racist view that black people are usually criminals? Can you take a second to consider that maybe that this matters to people because this is shit they have to deal with on a daily basis?

This isn't a crusade, dude, it's a simple "that's bad, fix it and don't do it again". On their end, it probably would take a few minutes to change. If you don't care, then why bother contributing to the discussion?

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

Before deciding if those spirit battles should be considered racist, I would want to know two things:

  1. Are there other spirit battles where Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong are being used for lighter-skinned characters?
  2. Are there other spirit battles where black characters are portrayed by someone who isn't a Kong?

If there are, and depending on how many, I think calling out those spirit battles as racist is pushing it. But otherwise, yeah, it's not a good look.

The answer to both questions is yes, but using a monkey to represent a black person is a really bad call no matter how it came to be.

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5 minutes ago, Florete said:

Before deciding if those spirit battles should be considered racist, I would want to know two things:

  1. Are there other spirit battles where Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong are being used for lighter-skinned characters?
  2. Are there other spirit battles where black characters are portrayed by someone who isn't a Kong?

If there are, and depending on how many, I think calling out those spirit battles as racist is pushing it. But otherwise, yeah, it's not a good look.

Yes and yes. Off the top of my head, i know Twintelle is represented by Bayonetta and Great Tiger is represented by Incineroar.

There are too many Spirit Battles for me to remember them all but i know i've fought the Kongs reperesenting lighter-skinned characters.

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6 minutes ago, Johann said:

The answer to both questions is yes, but using a monkey to represent a black person is a really bad call no matter how it came to be.

I won't disagree that if they'd had the knowledge of the racist stereotypes (we all know they likely didn't), they shouldn't have done it at all. But with the context of them being just a few among others that could have been represented similarly but weren't, complaining about it feels like cherry picking.

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20 minutes ago, Florete said:

Before deciding if those spirit battles should be considered racist, I would want to know two things:

  1. Are there other spirit battles where Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong are being used for lighter-skinned characters?
  2. Are there other spirit battles where black characters are portrayed by someone who isn't a Kong?

If there are, and depending on how many, I think calling out those spirit battles as racist is pushing it. But otherwise, yeah, it's not a good look.

The only example I can think of for #1 is the Hockey Players spirit, wherein DK is the beloved Fat Guy.

Side note: even ignoring that using an actual gorilla to represent a character based off of several real-life black boxing legends is extremely racist, DK as Mr. Sandman is still a really weak reference. They have no moves in common and the closest thing DK has to Sandman is his bonus boss appearance in the Wii game. Haven't played Street Fighter since the 90's but I'm sure Captain Falcon or Bayonetta would've fit Dee Jay way better as well.

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13 minutes ago, Florete said:

I won't disagree that if they'd had the knowledge of the racist stereotypes (we all know they likely didn't), they shouldn't have done it at all. But with the context of them being just a few among others that could have been represented similarly but weren't, complaining about it feels like cherry picking.

How is it cherry picking? These being the few instances among the large number suggest that these were oversights.

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39 minutes ago, Johann said:

How is it cherry picking? These being the few instances among the large number suggest that these were oversights.

These being the few instances among the large number is precisely what cherry picking is.

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1 minute ago, Florete said:

These being the few instances among the large number is precisely what cherry picking is.

I suppose it'd be cherry picking if the case being made was "Smash Bros is full of racist stereotypes" or something, sure, but the acceptable amount of instances of this kind is zero. Everything else being fine doesn't make these ones fine by association. It's just less of a problem than if they were intentional and more widespread.

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ooh, interesting reversal of the pika and pichu placements. Would love to hear that thought process. Odd that all the super heavies are low tier besides DK. I understand Ridley and Incineroar still have a lot to prove, but Donkey Kong is an odd pick to keep where he was in Smash 4. Bowser is my personal pick for best heavyweight this time around simply by virtue of being even faster and certainly more well rounded rather than relying on grabs (the regular kind, not the Side B kind) for consistent damage. And if you did think the removal of 90% of his grab combos is the big deal breaker, how did you miss the same change on Donkey Kong? I'll never understand the anti heavyweight bias coming from stocking island.

Edited by Glennstavos
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