Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

There's also Ken Masters did became a Father in Street Fighter IV as well. And plus, Donkey Kong did had a son when DK Junior existed in 1982. (I don't know if the modern DK was Donkey Kong Junior due to I watched the Missing in Action of Donkey Kong Jr. that Derrick did researched about the Kong Family Confusion in the Donkey Kong Continuity)

Ken's a good point. He went home and became a family man.

The Donkey Kong you see in Smash (and every Donkey Kong Country game) is DK jr's son. Cranky's grand son. This is actually confirmed within the codec conversation back in Brawl, so where Smash is concerned there's no ambiguity regarding 'which' Donkey Kong is in the game. I'd say it's about time DK settles down though.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Glennstavos

[Lord_Brand]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

If only they'd give us a pair of shades for a Fox costume we could have James McCloud in the game. Coming to think of it I'm actually quite disapointed that in over 20 years of smash they never gave Fox an alternate costume with a pair of shades. It would be super easy to do, would be a neat reference and would look super cool. I wish they'd stop giving us Mii Costumes I'm not interested in and instead give us alternate costumes for the other 70 characters in the game.

Let us not forget that Fox McCloud himself becomes a father in one of the endings for Command, for what that's worth. A James costume would be cool, though a James Echo Fighter would be even cooler.

I'm planning to do a Father's Day Smash tourney with fighters who either represent fathers or are actual fathers themselves. The father representatives could use Spirits like James McCloud, Isaac, and Ness' Dad. Normally I'd make that a CPU-only tourney, but if there are enough interested folks here, I could talk to my bro about setting up a tourney for all of us here, with him and me included. Either way, here are the fighters I've got planned so far:

• Donkey Kong (Donkey Kong & Lady)
• Link (Isaac)
• Fox McCloud (James McCloud)
• Ness (Ninten + Ness's Father)
• Bowser (Wedding Bowser)
• Roy (Eliwood + Hector)
• Chrom (Sigurd)
• Snake (Big Boss)
• Lucas (Flint)
• Olimar
• Robin (Leo)
• Corrin (Xander + Garron)
• Ken
• Byleth (Takumi)

Edited June 19, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Lightchao42]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:38 PM, King Marth 64 said:

So that technically makes Jin Mishima kinda the Ken Masters and Chrom echo situation of Tekken series, correct? (few differences from the original fighter)

Like what difference in Jin's fighting style differs from his father, Kazuya in the Tekken Franchise?

Jin in Tekken 3 used a modified version of Kazuya's moveset while also using some moves from his mother Jun, both of whom were absent in T3. When Kazuya came back in Tekken 4, Jin got a completely new moveset, though Devil Jin (introduced in Tekken 5) uses a modified version of Jin's previous moveset. The Tekken content in Ultimate seems to be based mostly on Tekken 7, unlike Ryu and Ken who are mostly based on Street Fighter II, so making Jin an echo of Kazuya in this game doesn't seem likely.

As another difference, while Kazuya can transform into his Devil form midbattle, Jin's Devil form has a completely different moveset. Kazuya's devil powers being easier to implement than Jin's might be another reason why he was picked as the Tekken character.

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

The Donkey Kong you see in Smash (and every Donkey Kong Country game) is DK jr's son. Cranky's grand son. This is actually confirmed within the codec conversation back in Brawl, so where Smash is concerned there's no ambiguity regarding 'which' Donkey Kong is in the game. I'd say it's about time DK settles down though.

There has been some zigzagging over the years as to whether or not DK is Cranky's son or grandson and thus whether or not he's Jr., as one of Rare's writers said modern DK is in fact Jr. and to ignore any claim otherwise in 1999. However the current story is that DK is Cranky's grandson, which means he's also Jr.'s son, though Jr. being in limbo makes it hard to determine the truth. On the other hand, Cranky being the original DK has remained mostly consistent.

Adding to the father business, Pac-Man has children too, though they might be in legal limbo like Ms. Pac-Man. And from a certain standpoint (Xenoblade spoilers)

Spoiler

Shulk technically killed Pyra and Mythra's father, so that might help him earn Kazuya's respect.

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

Ken's a good point. He went home and became a family man.

The Donkey Kong you see in Smash (and every Donkey Kong Country game) is DK jr's son. Cranky's grand son. This is actually confirmed within the codec conversation back in Brawl, so where Smash is concerned there's no ambiguity regarding 'which' Donkey Kong is in the game. I'd say it's about time DK settles down though.

Well that was Brawl's DK, what about SSB4 and Ultimate's DK? Who is that? We know that DK64's DK was Cranky Kong AKA the original DK based on the fighter profile. So the DKs in Smash are not always the same character. There's, at the very least, two of them.

[Lord_Brand]

Did a Father's Day CPU tournament. Robin (Leo + Garron) ended up winning it.

[King Marth 64]

I was trying to think of something that needs to be returned to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate in Version 12.0.0 Update Patch similar to like we got Home Run Contest brought back in 5.0.0 back then. I'm kind of wondered if something Sakurai would present in Kazuya's Stream like Target Blast (or Break the Targets!), Race to the Finish!, or any other ones returns or might show a new Stadium Mini Game in Ultimate's 12.0.0 similar to like Home Run Contest was brought back.

I also wondered if 12.0.0 would allow the Sophia and Arthur spiritis are going to be showing up in the Shops (along with placing Sophia Spirit in Joker's Spirit Board similar to like how the Tockles Spirit were being added after Banjo and Kazooie got added in) since they did mentioned that they were planned to be added in the Shops later in the future.

I'm also kind of wondered if Sakurai is might going to present Kazuya Challenge in Kazuya's Presentation so that players can face off Kazuya early in 12.0.0 and unlock him (which it be Kazuya and the Tekken Stage in 12.0.0) similar to like how Sephiroth was handled in the Sephiroth Challenge before the next version 10.1.0 made him fully playable with other FF7 Spirits and Mii Fighter Costumes added in.

Edited June 21, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Perkilator]

I'm so glad it was her instead of Spring Man.

[Perkilator]

Obviously this is a waaay different time compared to now, but I wonder what a "definitive edition" of Brawl would've entailed.

[Lord_Brand]

Probably more fighters, more stages, more items, more stickers, maybe a few costume alts, an extra boss or two, and if we want to be so daring, a revised Subspace Emissary with a few extra scenes for the new fighters (though more likely they would just get bonus cutscenes like Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf did). I think a definitive version of Melee to send off the GCN and welcome the Wii would have been nice. The Definitive version of Melee could have included fighters introduced in the GCN era such as Toon Link, Dark Samus, Krystal, and Olimar. Maybe also include GCN-era variant fighters such Sunshine Mario, Twilight Link, Twilight Zelda, Twilight Ganondorf, Prime Samus, Adventures Fox, and Assault Fox. Then Brawl could have capped off the Wii and helped launch the Wii U.

Speaking of enhanced rereleases, if they had made an N64 Classic, I'd have loved to see an enhanced version of Super Smash Bros. 64 as one of the games, with extra fighters and such, a sort of "what could have been" for the original game. No doubt the original Smash 64 would be part of the collection, but a Deluxe version would make the deal sweeter. It could be the feature title of the N64C like Star Fox 2 was for SNESC. Or, crazy idea, what if these "definitive" versions were actually sequels? Like Super Smash Bros. 2, Melee 2, Brawl 2, and so on? In which case, instead of an enhanced Smash 64, we'd be seeing what a theoretical Super Smash Bros. sequel on the N64 could have been like. Melee 2 would have been basically Smash as a swan song for the GCN, ditto for Brawl 2 on the Wii. Starting with Smash 4, numbered sequels wouldn't be as necessary since DLC made it possible to add on to the game over time.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Perkilator]

Sonic 30th anniversary Spirit Event

[Lord_Brand]

Presumably, that means every Sonic Spirit in Smash will be present. But will there be any new Spirits? I've compiled a list of Sonic characters who have yet to appear as Spirits:

Spoiler

• Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Eggman (Classic) - The classic versions of the core four Sonic heroes and Eggman.
• Mighty the Armadillo and Ray the Flying Squirrel - A couple of fan favorites from the Classic days who made a big comeback in Sonic Mania as playable characters for the first time in over 20 years.
• Witchcart, Bearenger, Carrotia, and Fockwolfe - The villains of Tails Skypatrol, and probably the four most obscure characters you'll see on this list.
• The Great Battle Kukku - Leader of the Battle Kukku Empire, the villains of Tails Adventure. Another extremely obscure character.
• Fang the Sniper - One of the more memorable secondary villains from the Classic days. Most notable appearances are Sonic Triple Trouble, Sonic the Fighters, and Sonic Drift 2.
• Honey the Cat - Originally a dummied out fighter from Sonic the Fighters who has since become an official character and has been pretty popular with fans for a while. She's based on Honey from Fighting Vipers.
• Tikal - One of the more memorable characters from Sonic Adventure, and a logical companion to Chaos.
• Lumina Flowlight and Void - The faces of Sonic Shuffle.
• Illumina - The Goddess and protector of Maginaryworld, also from Sonic Shuffle.
• Maria Robotnik - Shadow's friend seen in Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog, whose untimely demise inspired many of Shadow's actions.
• Dark Chao - They have the regular and Hero Chao, so why not the Dark Chao?
• Vanilla the Rabbit - Cream's mother, who appeared in Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, and Sonic Rush.
• Emerl - A robot who can learn the fighting moves of others, featured in Sonic Battle.
• G-merl - A robot Eggman built using Emerl's data, who assisted Eggman in Sonic Advance 3. Could be an enhanced version of Emerl.
• Black Doom - The lead villain of Shadow the Hedgehog, from whom Shadow's genes are derived.
• Wave the Swallow and Storm the Albatross - Of the Babylon Rogues, only Jet is currently included.
• Eggman Nega - Blaze and Silver's nemesis, the Sol Dimension counterpart/future descendant of Eggman.
• Princess Elise - The lead girl of Sonic '06.
• Mephiles - The main villain of Sonic '06.
• Super Silver - Sonic and Shadow's super modes are both available in some form, but Silver's currently is not.
• Marine the Raccoon - A supporting character introduced in Sonic Rush Adventure.
• Captain Whisker and Johnny - A pair of robotic pirates, the lead villains of Sonic Rush Adventure.
• Shahra - Sonic's genie friend from Sonic & The Secret Rings.
• Erazor Djinn - The main villain of Sonic & The Secret Rings.
• Merlina the Wizard - A supporting character from Sonic & The Black Knight.
• King Arthur - The titular Black Knight and lead villain of Sonic & The Black Knight.
• Shade the [REDACTED] - The most notable character from that Sonic RPG a self-absorbed manchild threw a hissy fit about so now we can't play it. Probably less likely than even the obscure characters I mentioned above due to said self-absorbed manchild.
• Chip - Sonic's companion from Sonic Unleashed.
• The Wisps - The various Wisps of Sonic Colors, including Yacker and the Mother Wisp.
• The Deadly Six - Zavok, Zazz, Zeena, Master Ziz, Zomom, and Zor, collectively the main villains of Sonic Lost World.
• Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Eggman (Sonic Boom!) - The Sonic Boom series versions of the core four Sonic heroes and Eggman.
• Sticks the Honey Badger - The fifth member of the Sonic Boom heroes team.
• Lyric the Last Ancient - The titular villain of Sonic Boom: The Rise of Lyric.
• The Hard Boiled Heavies - Heavy King, Heavy Gunner, Heavy Shinobi, Heavy Magician, and Heavy Rider, the main bosses of Sonic Mania.

I reached pretty deep for this list. I wouldn't seriously expect even half of these characters to be picked, but I mentioned them anyway for the sake of completeness and fun. Given that it's an anniversary celebration for Sonic, honestly I'd just expect the Classic versions to appear as the new Spirits. That would be the boring option, but the most likely.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[King Marth 64]

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

I reached pretty deep for this list. I wouldn't seriously expect even half of these characters to be picked, but I mentioned them anyway for the sake of completeness and fun. Given that it's an anniversary celebration for Sonic, honestly I'd just expect the Classic versions to appear as the new Spirits. That would be the boring option, but the most likely.

Why not add a Spirit of Mighty and Ray since they did get brought back in Sonic Mania? I don't think those two ever had gotten a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as well as a Trophy in Brawl and For Nintendo 3DS / Wii U nor as a Sticker in Brawl as well.

Edited June 23, 2021 by King Marth 64

[Perkilator]

Sakurai reminds us that Fates came out 6 years ago today in Japan.

I’ve said this multiple times, but I think Azura might’ve been a better choice for a Fares rep.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Jingilator said:

Sakurai reminds us that Fates came out 6 years ago today in Japan.

I’ve said this multiple times, but I think Azura might’ve been a better choice for a Fares rep.

Azura would've been a better choice. And frankly, she's the actual protagonist. Corrin is just a tacked on avatar that essentially duplicates her story. They could have made Azura the avatar (she even has a gender neutral name) without significantly rewriting the story.

[Perkilator]

9 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Azura would've been a better choice. And frankly, she's the actual protagonist. Corrin is just a tacked on avatar that essentially duplicates her story. They could have made Azura the avatar (she even has a gender neutral name) without significantly rewriting the story.

Why stop there? Why not go all in with the Japanese setting as well?

BTW, Kazuya's presentation is in about 2 and a half days.

Here's the link to the presentation

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Jingilator

[ZeManaphy]

18 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Azura would've been a better choice. And frankly, she's the actual protagonist. Corrin is just a tacked on avatar that essentially duplicates her story. They could have made Azura the avatar (she even has a gender neutral name) without significantly rewriting the story.

Well, Corrin does still have Dragon Fang. So it’s not like there an entire ripoff of Marth. I still like Corrin’s inclusion at the end of the day. 

[Lord_Brand]

Stuff about FE

Spoiler

No denying that FE is one of those series that can justify getting a large number of fighters in Smash, like Zelda, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, or Sonic. In addition to the Lords, you have a lot of other units with weapons and abilities that could add a lot of variety to Smash. One aspect that I think is woefully underused with these characters is the fact they lead armies into battle; if they had specials that summoned allies like Caeda for Marth or Soren for Ike, that would help give them a lot more of that FE flavor. Alternatively, you could use a "nested roster" that lets you pick one of several units from the same game, similar to what I would suggest for Dr. Wily & Robot Masters or Eight Mavericks.

On a mechanical level, Byleth is the most interesting FE rep due to the multiple weapon types they use. It's just a pity it took so long to get a "weapon triangle" fighter, and from a game where the weapon triangle doesn't even exist. You could transplant most of Byleth's moveset to Chrom and Lucina, swapping out the dragon bone weapons for more conventional weaponry, due to the fact Chrom and Lucina have access to all three melee weapon types as well as bows thanks to their class options - something that can't be said for Marth and Roy.

Robin meanwhile has access to almost every class in Awakening, so they could implement a class-changing mechanic to represent that. Since Robin can be either gender, I would avoid gender-locked classes like Fighter and Pegasus Knight and focus on classes they can access either way, like Cleric/Priest, Knight, Mage, Mercenary, Myrmidon, Thief, and Dark Mage. Each class would incorporate aspects of one or both of their promotions as well; Clerics and Priests cannot attack as they do not use weapons, so they borrow Axes from the War Cleric and War Monk promotions. Mercenaries, Myrmidons, and Thieves all use swords, so the Mercenary can add axes from Hero, the Myrmidon can add Bows from Assassin, and the Thief can add Staves from Trickster. Knight uses both Axes and Lances as a nod to General. Mage uses Tomes and Staves as a nod to Sage. The Dark Mage class need not incorporate any additional weapons, they already have Dark Tomes to distinguish them, but if desired they could add Swords from Dark Knight, which would make them similar to the bass Tactician class but with dark magic instead of anima. To summarize:

• Tactician - Sword + Tomes
• Mercenary - Sword + Axe
• Myrmidon - Sword + Bow
• Thief - Sword + Staves
• Knight - Lance + Axe
• Cleric/Priest - Axe + Staves
• Mage - Tomes + Staves
• Dark Mage - Sword + Dark Tomes

In that way, Robin would have access to most of the weapon types and all the magic types, but only two at a time. D Special would be used to access Class Change, while Nosferatu would move to the Dark Mage class and become its N or S Special.

Sigh...I'm just disappointed that Kazuya is our second-to-last DLC fighter. It's not that I'm against him getting in, he is from an iconic fighting game series and all, but when I think of how that slot could have gone to someone who'd actually excite me, like Crash or Shantae, I just feel let down. Now I know I'm not going to get at least one of my top two reps, and I don't have a FP3 to renew my hope. All I can do now is hope that a Smash 6 is coming within the next console generation, and that it'll finally add some of the fighters I've been aching for the longest like Krystal and Shantae. I just hope the last DLC fighter manages to send things off with a bang.

Looking back over the two Fighter's Passes, I'll admit it's been a mixed bag for me. Joker didn't excite me, but the fact DLC fighters are joining Smash did. Hero was a neat addition. Banjo & Kazooie were the highlight for me, because I didn't dare to dream that they could get in, which made their addition surprising as well as exciting. Terry was neat, but he didn't excite me. Byleth was also meh.

Min Min was an interesting addition with a cool twist on Specials, but I'm not an ARMS fan, so I didn't feel strongly about her addition. Steve was a really neat addition due to how his moveset incorporates mining and crafting, making him arguably the most unique fighter in the entire roster. Sephiroth was undeniably cool even though I'm not a big fan of the character, and I think most would agree he was the highlight of this pass so far. Pyra & Mythra were a cute addition that my bro enjoyed, and I like seeing another transforming character like Zelda and Sheik used to be.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[Lightcosmo]

I cared about Pyra/Mythra's inclusion... And thats really it. As a HUGE Xenon fan of course. Xd

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I have so many questions regarding how Kazuya controls. How do they map that many attacks on a Smash character? Especially since he doesn't have any sort of stance switch which is how I anticipated they'd design a Tekken character in Smash. Have they divided the punches and kicks onto the A and B buttons respectively? They didn't go that route for Ryu or Terry, so it stands to reason they wouldn't here either. Tekken does have directional input moves but...not a lot of them compared to other fighters. It's more about inputting a sequence of moves, pressing two of your four attack buttons simultaneously, or hitting a button while exiting your crouch state.

Anyway, Sakurai bets

• The length of the presentation will come just under an hour (57-59 minutes long).
• Sakurai will brag about Kazuya's total move count, which comes in at over 50, at least according to him. Since he apparently considers Tekken's wavedash a "move".
• Rage Mode activates at 100% damage, and allows Kazuya one use of his Rage Drives, thereupon it disappears for the rest of the stock. If he opts not to use one of those moves, the generic damage buff is 20% while the Mode is still active.
• The game updates "later today" according to the presentation
• The Devil form is just an aesthetic element of certain special moves and taunts, and isn't some on/off mechanic like Sephy's One Wing or Arsene.
• Kazuya has the lowest short hop height in the game. But his Full hop is at least high enough to clear the side platform of battlefield, unlike Steve.
• Tekken Mii outfits: Nina, King, Yoshimitsu.
• Sakurai will demonstrate how to Korean Backdash, without calling it that. So the meme is going to be Smash players asking what the hell that is whenever people point it out.
• Sakurai will enter a versus match against CPU Ryu, Ken, and Terry and actually loses (!!!). But then tries again and succeeds. 
• One of Kazuya's victory animations is just a slow zoom in on his face as he smirks. Unfortunately, it's not a curated animation of him throwing his opponent on a cliff.
• The Mishima Dojo's walls are destructible like the walls of Shadow Moses. After sustaining enough damage and wall bounces they will crumble, and then reform after a while. 
• Those dynamic close up angles on certain throws that make them look how they do in Tekken? That's not just cute camerawork for the trailer, those are real in 1v1. 
• Following the presentation, Smashtubers will come out with their Kazuya is BROKEN??? takes before he's even released. But for once they are right!

[Perkilator]

44 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

• The length of the presentation will come just under an hour (57-59 minutes long).

It’s confirmed to be around 40 minutes.

 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'd think King, Yoshimitsu, and Lei would all make sense for Mii costumes. King for Brawler and Yoshimitsu for Swordsmen, obviously, and Lei for Gunner since he (Lei) is a cop and has a gun. But, yeah, I can definitely see Nina being used as a Mii costume instead and not seeing a Lei costume at all.

For Spirits on the Spirit Board, my best guesses would be:

• Jin (unless he's an Echo for Kazuya, in which case he'd be a Fighter Spirit)
• Heihachi
• Lee
• Paul
• Nina
• Yoshimitsu
• Marshall Law
• Lei
• King
• Xiaoyu
• Hwoarang
• Julia
• Steve

[Lightchao42]

I can't wait for Harada to bust down Sakurai's door during the presentation and reveal that the final challenger is another Fire Emblem character.

More seriously, I'd to see Nightmare and KOS-MOS as Mii costumes. I wouldn't be surprised if Jin's spirit enhanced into Devil Jin; maybe Heihachi and Devil Jin can both be legendary spirits? It's possible since Pyra and Mythra came with two/three legendary spirits.

[Lord_Brand]

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I have so many questions regarding how Kazuya controls. How do they map that many attacks on a Smash character? Especially since he doesn't have any sort of stance switch which is how I anticipated they'd design a Tekken character in Smash. Have they divided the punches and kicks onto the A and B buttons respectively? They didn't go that route for Ryu or Terry, so it stands to reason they wouldn't here either. Tekken does have directional input moves but...not a lot of them compared to other fighters. It's more about inputting a sequence of moves, pressing two of your four attack buttons simultaneously, or hitting a button while exiting your crouch state.

Do we know for a fact he doesn't have a stance switch? Maybe D Special or Shield + Special is used to switch stances?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

Do we know for a fact he doesn't have a stance switch? Maybe D Special or Shield + Special is used to switch stances?

It's just not a thing Kazuya can do in the source material. So if he can in Smash, it would be something arbitrarily made up to facilitate access to so many moves that we've seen him display in the Direct footage.

That's why I mused that Sakurai should pick a character known for multiple stances (Like Xiaoyu or Kuma/Panda) in order to boast the ~100 moves per character we've come to expect from Tekken while still maintaining a simplified control scheme fit for Smash Bros. Down B to access a new set of moves - kind of like Pokemon Trainer only you're still the same character. Also I just figured those would be more interesting to a non Tekken fan than them just picking a Mishima.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Glennstavos

[Lord_Brand]

Were you the one who mentioned that Kazuya's moveset changes when he activates his devil form?