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Rudolf was meant to be a villian folks


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Guest Dreamyboi
23 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

I don't want to sound cynical, but knowing them, they'll learn all the wrong things.

I'm battling my own cynicism right now, all we can do is sit and die of old age wait for them to show something.

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38 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

I'm battling my own cynicism right now, all we can do is sit and die of old age wait for them to show something.

I hear you; the wait has been long. I saw the direct, and, when it ended, instead of being excited for Smash Bros. Switch, I said out loud, "...That's it? What about FE Switch!?"

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Guest Dreamyboi
33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I hear you; the wait has been long. I saw the direct, and, when it ended, instead of being excited for Smash Bros. Switch, I said out loud, "...That's it? What about FE Switch!?"

Like I've been saying most of my complaints about this wait would not exist had SOMETHING BEEN shown.

A release date, A confirmed title, Even a little bit of art from the game or some other nugget of info.

Anything other than complete silence and I would be far less agitated/impatient.

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8 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Remind me, did any non-Camus Rigelian ever say anything about their opinion of Rudolf? More to the point, before confronting him, does the audience ever learn anything about Rudolf as a character other than Emperor of Rigel and acts like a father to his men?

He has exactly one (optional) scene that displays his personality; one of the memory shards.

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Mycen, I have to draw first blood. I must awaken the people to their potential—their own strength— and stop them from leaning so hard on the blessings and precepts of gods. I know the people will rise up against me for what I do. But as a father… nothing would make me prouder than for Alm to lead them.

I would say he's actually the opposite of Ashnard. Ashnard wanted to unleash the dark god upon the world, and further subjugate the weak people. Rudolf wanted to kill the dark god, and make the weak people realise their own strength.

 

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I want none to know of him so he has a chance to grow up hale and happy. This is the only thing I can do for him as his father. ... Good-bye, Alm. May you never forget how to be kind.

 

From this, I believe Rudolf knew Duma's philosophy alone was flawed, and would just produce a Berkut for a leader. It's also likely he knew what Celica's father was like.

 

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Two children with such a mark are prophesied to save Valentia from ruin. And now my son has been born with it. I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark.

So, he entrusted the true leader of Rigel to Mycen, who was a Zofian general and thus in a position to influence both branded children. He probably intended them to bond and use that to their advantage

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Baldrick said:

He has exactly one (optional) scene that displays his personality; one of the memory shards.

Quote

Mycen, I have to draw first blood. I must awaken the people to their potential—their own strength— and stop them from leaning so hard on the blessings and precepts of gods. I know the people will rise up against me for what I do. But as a father… nothing would make me prouder than for Alm to lead them.

 

Yes, and that memory scene was only available after the fight with Rudolf and the plot twist (for obvious reasons). My point was that the player learns little of Rudolf's character before the confrontation; in stark contrast to Ashnard.

 

14 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I would say he's actually the opposite of Ashnard. Ashnard wanted to unleash the dark god upon the world, and further subjugate the weak people. Rudolf wanted to kill the dark god, and make the weak people realise their own strength.

That would actually make him more of a foil than an opposite. Both are villainous rulers and conquers with a Strength is Everything mentality and who have a plan that involves bringing about continent-wide war to achieve their goals. They even each have a son who's on the side of the heroes. What you just mentioned is the part where they differ. 

 

14 hours ago, Baldrick said:

From this, I believe Rudolf knew Duma's philosophy alone was flawed, and would just produce a Berkut for a leader. It's also likely he knew what Celica's father was like.

Or, perhaps he was just speaking from the instincts of a father? Perhaps one wanting his son to grow up a life that doesn't involve the Duma Faithful trying to assassinate him at every opportunity, until he is ready? 

 

14 hours ago, Baldrick said:

So, he entrusted the true leader of Rigel to Mycen, who was a Zofian general and thus in a position to influence both branded children. He probably intended them to bond and use that to their advantage

Or, perhaps he trusted Mycen because they were old friends from when Mycen was a Rigelian (it is mentioned that Mycen was born in Rigel, and the two do speak as old friends in that memory), and Mycen, because of that friendship, was the only person Rudolf trusted to raise Alm outside of Rigel and away from the threat of the Duma Faithful. At the time of the memory prism, Celica was but an infant, and the massacre of the king's children had yet to happen. The fact that both and Celica would end up in Mycen's care was a coincidence in the context of the story.

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Yes, and that memory scene was only available after the fight with Rudolf and the plot twist (for obvious reasons). My point was that the player learns little of Rudolf's character before the confrontation; in stark contrast to Ashnard.

It seems to me that because it was only explained afterwards, people are ignoring or trying to explain away what we do know about Rudolf. (EDIT: I'm only quoting you but I don't mean to single you out or anything).

 

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Or, perhaps he was just speaking from the instincts of a father? Perhaps one wanting his son to grow up a life that doesn't involve the Duma Faithful trying to assassinate him at every opportunity, until he is ready? 

That's not a Rigellian mindset. If he's coddled away from danger, how can he ever become strong? Can you imagine Ashnard doing something like that? As you say, he is also a father.

Rudolf's last wish for Alm was "May you never forget how to be kind". If he believes strength is everything, why didn't he say "May you become strong enough to kill me"?

 

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Or, perhaps he trusted Mycen because they were old friends from when Mycen was a Rigelian (it is mentioned that Mycen was born in Rigel, and the two do speak as old friends in that memory), and Mycen, because of that friendship, was the only person Rudolf trusted to raise Alm outside of Rigel and away from the threat of the Duma Faithful. At the time of the memory prism, Celica was but an infant, and the massacre of the king's children had yet to happen. The fact that both and Celica would end up in Mycen's care was a coincidence in the context of the story.

There are degrees of coincidences. The ward of a Zofian general becoming BFFs with a Zofian princess is less of a coincidence than it would be for a Rigellian prince.

Furthermore, Rudolf is a big believer in fate. He thinks Alm (and Celica) will save Valentia because they have the same birthmark; making their meeting more likely to happen is a neat explanation for his actions.

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On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 9:02 PM, Baldrick said:

It seems to me that because it was only explained afterwards, people are ignoring or trying to explain away what we do know about Rudolf.

No; it's just that you brought it up in response to a statement I made where I explicitly said before. In fact, I even say "before the confrontation" in the very sentence you originally quoted. I wasn't ignoring it or trying to explain away anything.

 

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 9:02 PM, Baldrick said:

That's not a Rigellian mindset. If he's coddled away from danger, how can he ever become strong? Can you imagine Ashnard doing something like that? As you say, he is also a father.

Rudolf's last wish for Alm was "May you never forget how to be kind". If he believes strength is everything, why didn't he say "May you become strong enough to kill me"?

Remember when you pointed out Rudolf saying, "I want none to know of him so he has a chance to grow up hale and happy. [...] Goodbye Alm. May you never forget how to be kind." Here's the full thing Rudolf actually said:

Rudolf: Promise me, my friend. Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion before that day comes. If he stays in Rigel, the Duma Faithful will doubtless attempt to take his life. I want none to know of him so he has a chance to grow up hale and happy. This is the only thing I can do for him as his father.

"Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion when the day comes" sounds pretty Rigelian. As for the rest of it, it is quite clear he's hiding Alm away to keep the Duma Faithful from killing him. Furthermore, that's not coddling Alm away from danger; that's keeping Alm from getting killed before Alm can actually be old enough to deal with said danger on his own. Rudolf is speaking of making sure Alm has a chance to grow up hale and happy, and then says, "This is the only thing I can do for him as his father." 

So in short, he's thinking as a father, who wants to see his son not be assassinated as an infant, and I think you might be cherrypicking, however unintentionally.

Side note: Ashnard is also a father, but he also discarded his own infant son after discovering the Branded can't shapeshift. Rudolf actually cares about his son's well-being, while Ashnard is a downright sociopath, so no; I can't picture Ashnard doing something like that, but for completely different reasons than you're implying.

As for your comment of, "May you never forget how to be kind", there are several fitting reasons why he could have said it.

  1. The writers forgot that Rudolf was supposed to be their example of how Rigel has grown numb to all kindness.
  2. Perhaps he says it because he himself has forgotten/grown numb, and doesn't want Alm to become the same. Personally, I prefer this one, because it adds to the tragedy of his character. But it is the weakest explanation of the three.
  3. If your look at everything else he says in that moment, he immediately follows it with, "When we next meet, my son... it will be on the fields of war." Mycen mentions during the Reveal that Rudolf considered his son being the one to bring him down an act of mercy and kindness.
On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 9:02 PM, Baldrick said:

There are degrees of coincidences. The ward of a Zofian general becoming BFFs with a Zofian princess is less of a coincidence than it would be for a Rigellian prince.

Furthermore, Rudolf is a big believer in fate. He thinks Alm (and Celica) will save Valentia because they have the same birthmark; making their meeting more likely to happen is a neat explanation for his actions.

And sure; it's quite likely that Alm, as Mycen's 'grandson' might have grown up alongside Celica in Zofia due to Mycen's position pre-royal-children massacre. My point is that it was probably a happy accident or a side-bonus, and certainly not what was on Rudolf's mind when he chose to leave Alm in Mycen's care. For what was on Rudolf's mind, see what I wrote above, as well as yet more evidence of my point:

Rudolf: Alas, I fear not… Mycen, in all my years, I have never known a truer friend than you. You are the only man I can trust with this.

He chose Mycen because Mycen was an old friend that he trusted, and that Mycen being in Zofia would keep Alm away from the Duma Faithful as well. Plus, Rudolf knows Mycen of all people would be able to "shape [his] boy into a true champion before that day comes".

Also, I said that both of them ending up in Mycen's care was a coincidence brought on by the royal-children-massacre, not that them growing up together was a coincidence.

As for your new point about Rudolf believing in fate; what? Where did you get that idea? Rudolf didn't send Alm away because of fate. He sent Alm away because he saw the brand, heard that Celica had been born with a brand as well, and had also seen the warning signs that Duma and Mila were going mad. He knew of a prophecy about the brand-bearers, knew two such brand-bearers had been born, and knew that Duma and Mila were going mad, and he put two-and-two together using the evidence at hand. That's not being a big believer in fate; that's just seeing the warning signs pile up beyond a point at which they could be a coincidence. Also, in regards to sending Alm away specifically, it didn't matter if Rudolf himself believed the prophecy, because the Duma Faithful certainly did, and they would do everything in their power to prevent it, including killing an infant.

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9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

No; it's just that you brought it up in response to a statement I made where I explicitly said before. In fact, I even say "before the confrontation" in the very sentence you originally quoted. I wasn't ignoring it or trying to explain away anything.

You're trying to explain away Rudolf's acceptance of Mila's philosophy, while Jotari and Mad Manakete ignore it.

 

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Remember when you pointed out Rudolf saying, "I want none to know of him so he has a chance to grow up hale and happy. [...] Goodbye Alm. May you never forget how to be kind." Here's the full thing Rudolf actually said:

Rudolf: Promise me, my friend. Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion before that day comes. If he stays in Rigel, the Duma Faithful will doubtless attempt to take his life. I want none to know of him so he has a chance to grow up hale and happy. This is the only thing I can do for him as his father.

"Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion when the day comes" sounds pretty Rigelian. As for the rest of it, it is quite clear he's hiding Alm away to keep the Duma Faithful from killing him. Furthermore, that's not coddling Alm away from danger; that's keeping Alm from getting killed before Alm can actually be old enough to deal with said danger on his own. Rudolf is speaking of making sure Alm has a chance to grow up hale and happy, and then says, "This is the only thing I can do for him as his father." 

Remember when you said that Alm should have called out the fact that "Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions."

Why doesn't he just overrule/get rid of the Duma Faithful? He's going to have to deal with them sooner or later. Sending Alm to Zofia only makes it less likely he will be found and killed. Dealing with the Duma Faithful immediately is not only the safest route, but then he can raise Alm himself, without worrying about him being corrupted by the Zofian culture of weakness.

If he just wanted someone old enough to deal with the danger, consider Berkut. If Rudolf was obsessed with strength, Berkut should be the perfect heir; yet he treats Berkut as nothing but a pawn.

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So in short, he's thinking as a father, who wants to see his son not be assassinated as an infant, and I think you might be cherrypicking, however unintentionally.

I would be if I was denying that Rudolf considers Duma's philosophy important, but I'm not. I'm highlighting the key points that prove Rudolf also considers Mila's philosophy important.

 

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Side note: Ashnard is also a father, but he also discarded his own infant son after discovering the Branded can't shapeshift. Rudolf actually cares about his son's well-being, while Ashnard is a downright sociopath

That is exactly what I was implying. Don't you agree that this proves Rudolf doesn't have the same mindset as Ashnard, doesn't believe strength is everything, and your interpretation of him is wrong?

 

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As for your comment of, "May you never forget how to be kind", there are several fitting reasons why he could have said it.

  1. The writers forgot that Rudolf was supposed to be their example of how Rigel has grown numb to all kindness.
  2. Perhaps he says it because he himself has forgotten/grown numb, and doesn't want Alm to become the same. Personally, I prefer this one.
  3. If your look at everything else he says in that moment, he immediately follows it with, "When we next meet, my son... it will be on the fields of war." Mycen mentions during the Reveal that Rudolf considered his son being the one to bring him down an act of mercy and kindness.

Why do you prefer no. 2? If Rudolf is blind to compassion, why does he consider it important that Alm retains his compassion?

 

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And sure; it's quite likely that Alm, as Mycen's 'grandson' might have grown up alongside Celica in Zofia due to Mycen's position pre-royal-children massacre. My point is that it was probably a happy accident or a side-bonus, and certainly not what was on Rudolf's mind when he chose to leave Alm in Mycen's care. For what was on Rudolf's mind, see what I wrote above, as well as yet more evidence of my point:

Rudolf: Alas, I fear not… Mycen, in all my years, I have never known a truer friend than you. You are the only man I can trust with this.

He chose Mycen because Mycen was an old friend that he trusted, and that Mycen being in Zofia would keep Alm away from the Duma Faithful as well. Plus, Rudolf knows Mycen of all people would be able to "shape [his] boy into a true champion before that day comes".

Also, I said that both of them ending up in Mycen's care was a coincidence brought on by the royal-children-massacre, not that them growing up together was a coincidence.

 

If Rudolf wasn't also considering Celica when entrusting Alm to Mycen, why would he say "I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark."? Does he seem the sort of person to engage in idle gossip?

 

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As for your new point about Rudolf believing in fate; what? Where did you get that idea? Rudolf didn't send Alm away because of fate.

" Rudolf: Yes. The reason… Alm here is destined to one day champion Valentia. "

 

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He sent Alm away because he saw the brand, heard that Celica had been born with a brand as well, and had also seen the warning signs that Duma and Mila were going mad. He knew of a prophecy about the brand-bearers, knew two such brand-bearers had been born, and knew that Duma and Mila were going mad, and he put two-and-two together using the evidence at hand. That's not being a big believer in fate; that's just seeing the warning signs pile up beyond a point at which they could be a coincidence.

Rudolf isn't a believer in fate, yet he takes prophecies as "evidence at hand"?

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9 hours ago, Baldrick said:

You're trying to explain away Rudolf's acceptance of Mila's philosophy, while Jotari and Mad Manakete ignore it.

 

Remember when you said that Alm should have called out the fact that "Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions."

Why doesn't he just overrule/get rid of the Duma Faithful? He's going to have to deal with them sooner or later. Sending Alm to Zofia only makes it less likely he will be found and killed. Dealing with the Duma Faithful immediately is not only the safest route, but then he can raise Alm himself, without worrying about him being corrupted by the Zofian culture of weakness.

If he just wanted someone old enough to deal with the danger, consider Berkut. If Rudolf was obsessed with strength, Berkut should be the perfect heir; yet he treats Berkut as nothing but a pawn.

I would be if I was denying that Rudolf considers Duma's philosophy important, but I'm not. I'm highlighting the key points that prove Rudolf also considers Mila's philosophy important.

 

That is exactly what I was implying. Don't you agree that this proves Rudolf doesn't have the same mindset as Ashnard, doesn't believe strength is everything, and your interpretation of him is wrong?

 

Why do you prefer no. 2? If Rudolf is blind to compassion, why does he consider it important that Alm retains his compassion?

 

If Rudolf wasn't also considering Celica when entrusting Alm to Mycen, why would he say "I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark."? Does he seem the sort of person to engage in idle gossip?

 

" Rudolf: Yes. The reason… Alm here is destined to one day champion Valentia. "

 

Rudolf isn't a believer in fate, yet he takes prophecies as "evidence at hand"?

Truthfully I forgot about that line when I made the OP, but yeah, outright ignoring it now out of convenience.  Kind of wish they didn't put it in the game. I think the writers themselves were a bit confused as to what Rudolf was meant to be, hence why they gave him grandfatherly redesign. If he wasn't meant to be a villian then, like Sephiran, he would have been recruitable in the original game.

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On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

You're trying to explain away Rudolf's acceptance of Mila's philosophy, while Jotari and Mad Manakete ignore it.

First off; what exactly do you mean by "explain away"? Second of all, all I was trying to do was point out that my original argument that you quoted specifically had to do with what is learned about Rudolf before the Reveal, and you responded by bringing up something after the reveal. I knew about the memory prism; it just wasn't relevant to what I had been saying at the time. 

Also, "Rudolf's acceptance of Mila's philosophy". We weren't ignoring it, and I wasn't trying to explain it away. It was an incorrect interpretation you brought up and backed up with a cherrypicked half of a sentence, and I then pointed out what Rudolf actually said and what he meant of it, based on his stated reasons for his meaning, which were in the very parts that you ignored when you took half a sentence out of context. Speaking of which:

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

Remember when you said that Alm should have called out the fact that "Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions."

Yes, I do recall saying that. In fact, here's the full paragraph:

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After Rudolf's death, we find Mycen telling Alm about Rudolf's plan, in such a way that it conveys, "This is the only way it could've happened, now stop crying and fight Duma." And Alm just... takes it. I get that he's grieving, but he's blaming himself without taking anything from it. If they wanted to convey that Alm and Rudolf are counterpoints to each other, then Mycen's explanation should have been laced with Rudolf's viewpoint, and then Alm, after a moment to cry, should have called the old men out on their actions; slowly starting to disagree and saying that they're wrong; that Alm has only gotten as far as he has because of the people alongside him, and called him out on the fact that Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions. Alm should have called them out on the fact that their intentions were good, but their actions were horrible, and that he is not going to lead like that.

I was specifically talking about how the game botched it's attempts to convey its points, and what I felt Alm should have said in the moment of the reveal that would have helped. I was talking about how Alm should have called out Rudolf on the "conquer the continent" plan and how their intentions may have been good, but their strength-is-everything mentality led him to wage a continent-wide war just to achieve his ends. You took something I said completely out of context as if somehow negated a completely different point. That is cherrypicking; stop cherrypicking.

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

Why doesn't he just overrule/get rid of the Duma Faithful? He's going to have to deal with them sooner or later. Sending Alm to Zofia only makes it less likely he will be found and killed. Dealing with the Duma Faithful immediately is not only the safest route, but then he can raise Alm himself, without worrying about him being corrupted by the Zofian culture of weakness?

The question of why he didn't try to get rid of the Duma Faithful himself is a question a lot of people have been asking, and I don't have an answer for you. What I do know, and have shown with a full quote of the entire thing Rudolf said, is that he himself says he's giving Alm to Mycen to keep him away from the Duma Faithful until Alm is ready. Perhaps he himself couldn't without it being a massive heresy and setting all of Rigel against him? I honestly do not know. I do know that he considered Mycen capable of raising Alm into a strong man despite raising Alm in Zofia. After all, he said, "Promise me, my friend. Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion before that day comes."

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

If he just wanted someone old enough to deal with the danger, consider Berkut. If Rudolf was obsessed with strength, Berkut should be the perfect heir; yet he treats Berkut as nothing but a pawn.

Berkut didn't have the brand. Though I agree that him treating Berkut like a pawn wasn't very good.

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

I would be if I was denying that Rudolf considers Duma's philosophy important, but I'm not. I'm highlighting the key points that prove Rudolf also considers Mila's philosophy important.

Wait; what? I was saying that I think you might be cherrypicking the "key points", which I already showed you took out of context and likely misinterpreted, that you were using to argue your point about Rudolf and Mila. No one was accusing you of denying Rudolf considering Duma's philosophy important. That's a bit like saying, "I would be if a blue whale's tongue weighs as much as an elephant." Why do you think anyone was suggesting that you were, "denying that Rudolf considers Duma's philosophy important"? Seriously; I have high-functioning autism, so I know my communication is lacking at times. So please, tell me what it is you think I'm saying, so that I can try to clarify.

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

That is exactly what I was implying. Don't you agree that this proves Rudolf doesn't have the same mindset as Ashnard, doesn't believe strength is everything, and your interpretation of him is wrong?

No; I disagree, and for reasons that I already mentioned. as I said before, they are foils. They have a number of similarities, but a few key differences. They both have the same, "strength is everything" mentality, but they do differ in a key area: Rudolf cares about his family, the well-being of Valentia, and is a father to his men (one of the few things we learn of him pre-reveal), while Ashnard is a sociopath.

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

 

Why do you prefer no. 2? If Rudolf is blind to compassion, why does he consider it important that Alm retains his compassion?

Honestly; I was just talking about personal preference. I like that particular interpretation simply because it would add to the tragedy of his character (I mean that in a literary sense); him being aware that he's been numb to kindness, and wanting Alm to not be the same. 

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

If Rudolf wasn't also considering Celica when entrusting Alm to Mycen, why would he say "I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark."? Does he seem the sort of person to engage in idle gossip?

Here's why:

Rudolf: Look at his left hand.

Mycen: …The Brand!

Rudolf: Indeed. Two children with such a mark are prophesied to save Valentia from ruin. And now my son has been born with it. I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark.

Mycen: Two children… Then Valentia’s end is drawing near? Is Duma’s madness to blame?

Rudolf: Yes. His time is running short.

He's mentioning Celica specifically because of the brand. He's explaining to Mycen why he's entrusting Mycen to raise Alm; the reason being the brand. Rudolf knows Duma's going mad, and he knows about the prophecy about two brand-bearers.

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎13 at 11:18 PM, Baldrick said:

" Rudolf: Yes. The reason… Alm here is destined to one day champion Valentia. "

 

Rudolf isn't a believer in fate, yet he takes prophecies as "evidence at hand"?

No; I wasn't saying he takes prophecies as evidence at hand; I was saying he was taking the fact that two children have been born with the brand right around the time Rudolf's noticed the warning signs of Duma's madness as evidence at hand, and quite a considerable amount of it, that the prophecy is coming true.

Mycen: Are you mad?! What father would hand off his newborn child?! I love you most dear, but I must know the reason for this request.

Rudolf: Yes. The reason… Alm here is destined to one day champion Valentia.

Mycen: How can you know this?

Rudolf: Look at his left hand.

Mycen: …The Brand!

Rudolf: Indeed. Two children with such a mark are prophesied to save Valentia from ruin. And now my son has been born with it. I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark.

Mycen: Two children… Then Valentia’s end is drawing near? Is Duma’s madness to blame?

Rudolf: Yes. His time is running short.

Mycen: I see…

Again, you took a sentence out of context. 

Edited by vanguard333
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 Rudolf wasn't simply meant to be a villain; he IS one. Just because they made him more sympathetic doesn't erase everything he did after he invaded Zofia.

My biggest problem with Rudolf is not the way he was presented, because I fully believe he was well written in those moments. My grip with him (and the whole end of Echoes) is that we didn't really get to see him before the very last battle before the end dungeon. 

He was stern and proud, but willing. He trusted Alm to Mycen to have a better life and grow up strong, but he essentially had given up then: If Alm grew up into his plan as fate would have him, then everything would have worked out for him and Duma would be dead. If not, he still got the chance to grow up happy and away from the corruption of Rigel.

 If anything, the whole contrast between Berkut and Alm showcases this: Berkut is, for all intents and purposes, what Alm might have turned out to be if he was raised as the prince in Rudolf's way. 

 Design wise, I honestly cannot compute how you think the design for Echoes lacks anything, nor how the Gaiden one is better in any regards.

 The moustache doesn't make him threatening, it makes him corny. The general we fight a few chapters before captalizes on this with his own big ass moustache just to end up dying before we can even remember his name. 

Being young doesn't make him more of a threat either. It was pretty common for royalty in medieval times to father children until very late in their lifes and we can't assume the reasons for Rudolf taking so long since we never get any info whatsoever on Alm's mother (or the other Rigelian royalty that Berkut is related to). Maybe it was because he didn't want to father a child that could be manipulated by the Duma Faithful, or maybe his wife was too ill to have a kid and that's why we never heard of her: she might've died in childbirth.

His age might also have to do with the color of his hair; Being old = white hair to avoid players looking at his greenish blue hair and being "Ha! Alm!!!!".  Regardless, I think his design is perfect as it is.

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8 minutes ago, Marty said:

 Rudolf wasn't simply meant to be a villain; he IS one. Just because they made him more sympathetic doesn't erase everything he did after he invaded Zofia.

My biggest problem with Rudolf is not the way he was presented, because I fully believe he was well written in those moments. My grip with him (and the whole end of Echoes) is that we didn't really get to see him before the very last battle before the end dungeon. 

He was stern and proud, but willing. He trusted Alm to Mycen to have a better life and grow up strong, but he essentially had given up then: If Alm grew up into his plan as fate would have him, then everything would have worked out for him and Duma would be dead. If not, he still got the chance to grow up happy and away from the corruption of Rigel.

 If anything, the whole contrast between Berkut and Alm showcases this: Berkut is, for all intents and purposes, what Alm might have turned out to be if he was raised as the prince in Rudolf's way. 

 Design wise, I honestly cannot compute how you think the design for Echoes lacks anything, nor how the Gaiden one is better in any regards.

 The moustache doesn't make him threatening, it makes him corny. The general we fight a few chapters before captalizes on this with his own big ass moustache just to end up dying before we can even remember his name. 

Being young doesn't make him more of a threat either. It was pretty common for royalty in medieval times to father children until very late in their lifes and we can't assume the reasons for Rudolf taking so long since we never get any info whatsoever on Alm's mother (or the other Rigelian royalty that Berkut is related to). Maybe it was because he didn't want to father a child that could be manipulated by the Duma Faithful, or maybe his wife was too ill to have a kid and that's why we never heard of her: she might've died in childbirth.

His age might also have to do with the color of his hair; Being old = white hair to avoid players looking at his greenish blue hair and being "Ha! Alm!!!!".  Regardless, I think his design is perfect as it is.

I probably should have focused on it more in the opening statement, but it's mostly to do with his eyes. He has very dark, pit-like eyes. Take a glance at the character portraits in Gaiden http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Fire_Emblem_Gaiden and notice how most of the playable characters have very well defined eyes, while the villians have smaller, less defined eyes. The only playable characters that really look similar are the roguish Saber, who gets a smirk to compensate, and former villian Deen (who even shares his portrait with a minor boss). Or perhaps to put it another way, compare and contrast how similar looking the style of Desaix and Rudolf are drawn in Gaiden, and how different they are in Echoes.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I probably should have focused on it more in the opening statement, but it's mostly to do with his eyes. He has very dark, pit-like eyes. Take a glance at the character portraits in Gaiden http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Fire_Emblem_Gaiden and notice how most of the playable characters have very well defined eyes, while the villians have smaller, less defined eyes. The only playable characters that really look similar are the roguish Saber, who gets a smirk to compensate, and former villian Deen (who even shares his portrait with a minor boss). Or perhaps to put it another way, compare and contrast how similar looking the style of Desaix and Rudolf are drawn in Gaiden, and how different they are in Echoes.

 Nothing from Gaiden should really be taken into account artwise when compared to the remake because it's a completely different aesthetic and we barely had a story or personality to define the characters. The in game portraits were quite low quality even to a nes game standarts and although I agree that the first impression you get from them stays with you, they still should not be taken so seriously in a discussion nowadays. 

 Regarding the eyes: Fernand and Berkut are both Villains and their eyes are closer to the style of the playable characters. Did you mention the whole art thing as just another point in why Rudolf is supposed to be a Villain or did you actually want him to have a darker expression? Because in my opinion that would just make him more forgettable like all of the minor generals we fight.

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17 minutes ago, Marty said:

 Nothing from Gaiden should really be taken into account artwise when compared to the remake because it's a completely different aesthetic and we barely had a story or personality to define the characters. The in game portraits were quite low quality even to a nes game standarts and although I agree that the first impression you get from them stays with you, they still should not be taken so seriously in a discussion nowadays. 

 Regarding the eyes: Fernand and Berkut are both Villains and their eyes are closer to the style of the playable characters. Did you mention the whole art thing as just another point in why Rudolf is supposed to be a Villain or did you actually want him to have a darker expression? Because in my opinion that would just make him more forgettable like all of the minor generals we fight.

You're right. It is a different aestetic...That's the point. This thread was directly about me comparing the art in the first game and the remake. I think the reason why nobody critisized the wisdom of Rudolf's plan before the remake was because Gaiden's artwork represents better what role the character is playing. Nothing changes about the plan between the two games, if anything it's made less plotholed riddled in Echoes by explaining why Alm was adopted and by removing Falchion from Rudolf's control. Of course it's also true less people played Gaiden compared to Echoes, but of the minority of people that did play Gaiden, Rudolf was typically viewed as a surprisingly interesting and complex villian for his time.

As far as what Rudolf's design should be, yes, I think he should have had a bit darker an expression. There is a certain degree of gentleness in how Rudolf looks and I think that completely goes against how he's meant to be viewed. He, of course, shouldn't look like a generic chapter boss, but given him a darker expression wouldn't inherently do that. Someone else brought up Ashnard, he has a hell of a dark countenance, but his appearance is also really memorable. If I was to pick any character design in the series that I think would suit Rudolf the best, I think I'd go with Byron.

latest?cb=20120623083707 

As it happens, Byron's not a villian, but I wouldn't really question a villian that does look like that. Yet at the same time, it's still neutral enough that I don't question a good character that looks like that either, which in my opinion would be perfect for someone like Rudolf.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're right. It is a different aestetic...That's the point. This thread was directly about me comparing the art in the first game and the remake. I think the reason why nobody critisized the wisdom of Rudolf's plan before the remake was because Gaiden's artwork represents better what role the character is playing. Nothing changes about the plan between the two games, if anything it's made less plotholed riddled in Echoes by explaining why Alm was adopted and by removing Falchion from Rudolf's control. Of course it's also true less people played Gaiden compared to Echoes, but of the minority of people that did play Gaiden, Rudolf was typically viewed as a surprisingly interesting and complex villian for his time.

As far as what Rudolf's design should be, yes, I think he should have had a bit darker an expression. There is a certain degree of gentleness in how Rudolf looks and I think that completely goes against how he's meant to be viewed. He, of course, shouldn't look like a generic chapter boss, but given him a darker expression wouldn't inherently do that. Someone else brought up Ashnard, he has a hell of a dark countenance, but his appearance is also really memorable. If I was to pick any character design in the series that I think would suit Rudolf the best, I think I'd go with Byron.

 

As it happens, Byron's not a villian, but I wouldn't really question a villian that does look like that. Yet at the same time, it's still neutral enough that I don't question a good character that looks like that either, which in my opinion would be perfect for someone like Rudolf.

 I see your point and while I would be ok if we had gotten something like Byron instead, I still don't think Rudolf has any flaws in his appearance whatsoever. My playthrough of the game was completely blind with no exposure to gaiden whatsoever (heck, I didn't even see Echoes stuff before playing it since fates burned FE for me for a while) and I still thought he looked imposing and I never questioned his role as a villain, I just knew there was more to him.

 I don't know you, but maybe the only reason you have a problem with his expression is because you played the older game and held your own expectations to how he would be portrayed in the remake according to how you saw him in gaiden. For a new player like me, he just.. worked.

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15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're right. It is a different aestetic...That's the point. This thread was directly about me comparing the art in the first game and the remake. I think the reason why nobody critisized the wisdom of Rudolf's plan before the remake was because Gaiden's artwork represents better what role the character is playing. Nothing changes about the plan between the two games, if anything it's made less plotholed riddled in Echoes by explaining why Alm was adopted and by removing Falchion from Rudolf's control. Of course it's also true less people played Gaiden compared to Echoes, but of the minority of people that did play Gaiden, Rudolf was typically viewed as a surprisingly interesting and complex villian for his time.

As far as what Rudolf's design should be, yes, I think he should have had a bit darker an expression. There is a certain degree of gentleness in how Rudolf looks and I think that completely goes against how he's meant to be viewed. He, of course, shouldn't look like a generic chapter boss, but given him a darker expression wouldn't inherently do that. Someone else brought up Ashnard, he has a hell of a dark countenance, but his appearance is also really memorable. If I was to pick any character design in the series that I think would suit Rudolf the best, I think I'd go with Byron.

latest?cb=20120623083707 

As it happens, Byron's not a villian, but I wouldn't really question a villian that does look like that. Yet at the same time, it's still neutral enough that I don't question a good character that looks like that either, which in my opinion would be perfect for someone like Rudolf.

That was me.

Funny how you bring up the eyes, because I made a big note of that when I brought up Ashnard. It's quite obvious when looking at Ashnard's design that the eyes convey one thing: violent sociopath. That's one way in which they differ. Both Rudolf and Ashnard are rulers of militaristic nations. But where Ashnard, underneath, is bats--t insane, Rudolf is a good-intentioned man who believes because of Rigelian Strength is Everything that he has to wage war to achieve his ends.

I personally have no real problem with Rudolf's SoV appearance (though I do like that comparison to Byron), since Rudolf is supposed to be a father to his men. Plus; that moustache needed to go. However I personally would have made the eyes not so much more villainous, so much as more... worn down (for lack of a better way of putting it): I would have given him the expression of a man worn down by a ~16-year long plot and a continent-wide war. The eyes of a man that would fall completely apart at any moment; only keeping going at the thought of his son, and how he must see his plan through to ensure the future for his son.

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12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Truthfully I forgot about that line when I made the OP, but yeah, outright ignoring it now out of convenience.  Kind of wish they didn't put it in the game. I think the writers themselves were a bit confused as to what Rudolf was meant to be, hence why they gave him grandfatherly redesign. If he wasn't meant to be a villian then, like Sephiran, he would have been recruitable in the original game.

Echoes does change a lot of things from Gaiden, not least Boey's skin colour the nature of Mila, Duma and Falchion, and is developed by a different person, so I personally take it as a re-imagining rather than a remake.

 

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The question of why he didn't try to get rid of the Duma Faithful himself is a question a lot of people have been asking, and I don't have an answer for you. What I do know, and have shown with a full quote of the entire thing Rudolf said, is that he himself says he's giving Alm to Mycen to keep him away from the Duma Faithful until Alm is ready. Perhaps he himself couldn't without it being a massive heresy and setting all of Rigel against him? I honestly do not know. I do know that he considered Mycen capable of raising Alm into a strong man despite raising Alm in Zofia. After all, he said, "Promise me, my friend. Promise you will shape my boy into a true champion before that day comes."

If you dispute my interpretation, you should know the answer to this.

Think about what Rudolf's actual goal was; to stop the people from depending on the gods. In this context, what would a champion require? Just to be a strong warrior? Or is something like this:

Mycen: So I ask again: Are you ready to take the lives of others into your hands? Are you ready to shoulder all of their burdens? Their desires? And are you ready to fight and bleed until Zofia and all of Valentia is saved?

 

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Berkut didn't have the brand. Though I agree that him treating Berkut like a pawn wasn't very good.

But if he got rid of the Duma Faithful, he could raise Alm like he did Berkut. If Berkut's only problem was a lack of brand, raising Alm in his place would solve that problem.

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

So please, tell me what it is you think I'm saying, so that I can try to clarify.

I think you're missing the context of what Rudolf is actually trying to achieve, and so you think "champion" means 'somebody who can kill Duma' rather than 'somebody who can unite the continent and lead the people in a world without gods'. Because of this, you think Rudolf only considers Duma's philosophy important, and misinterpret why he says to Alm "may you never forget how to be kind".

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

No; I disagree, and for reasons that I already mentioned. as I said before, they are foils. They have a number of similarities, but a few key differences. They both have the same, "strength is everything" mentality, but they do differ in a key area: Rudolf cares about his family, the well-being of Valentia, and is a father to his men (one of the few things we learn of him pre-reveal), while Ashnard is a sociopath.

 

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly; I was just talking about personal preference. I like that particular interpretation simply because it would add to the tragedy of his character (I mean that in a literary sense); him being aware that he's been numb to kindness, and wanting Alm to not be the same.

I don't know how you reconcile these two viewpoints. If you think Rudolf has a "strength is everything" mentality, why does he consider being numb to kindness a bad thing?

 

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Here's why:

Rudolf: Look at his left hand.

Mycen: …The Brand!

Rudolf: Indeed. Two children with such a mark are prophesied to save Valentia from ruin. And now my son has been born with it. I also hear tale of a newborn Zofian princess who has this selfsame mark.

Mycen: Two children… Then Valentia’s end is drawing near? Is Duma’s madness to blame?

Rudolf: Yes. His time is running short.

He's mentioning Celica specifically because of the brand. He's explaining to Mycen why he's entrusting Mycen to raise Alm; the reason being the brand. Rudolf knows Duma's going mad, and he knows about the prophecy about two brand-bearers.

The bolded implies they will work together. Are you saying that Rudolf doesn't think Mycen's position in Zofia, with access to the other brand-bearer who will work together with Alm to save Valentia, is another good reason for him to raise Alm?

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

No; I wasn't saying he takes prophecies as evidence at hand; I was saying he was taking the fact that two children have been born with the brand right around the time Rudolf's noticed the warning signs of Duma's madness as evidence at hand, and quite a considerable amount of it, that the prophecy is coming true.

That's basically what I meant by him being a big believer in fate, so I don't know why you're disputing that he is.

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Baldrick; I think a lot of this is us simply misunderstanding each other.

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I think you're missing the context of what Rudolf is actually trying to achieve, and so you think "champion" means 'somebody who can kill Duma' rather than 'somebody who can unite the continent and lead the people in a world without gods'. Because of this, you think Rudolf only considers Duma's philosophy important, and misinterpret why he says to Alm "may you never forget how to be kind".

No; I don't think that at all. I am well-aware that he doesn't just mean "someone who can kill Duma (though that is a big part of what needed to be done)." 

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I don't know how you reconcile these two viewpoints. If you think Rudolf has a "strength is everything" mentality, why does he consider being numb to kindness a bad thing?

A person can be aware of what they consider a personal failing, and still not learn from it or be rid of it. 

I already explained how I reconcile these viewpoints: Rudolf cares about people other than himself, and is doing what he's doing because he believes it will save Valentia. But, because of his "strength is everything" mentality, his approach to saving the world; the way in which he is attempting to save Valentia, led to him becoming a villain. I just thought it adds to the tragedy of such a character if he's well-aware of what he's become, but thinks he cannot change. Does that make sense? 

Also, I merely listed three possible reasons why he said, "May you never forget how to be kind" and merely said which one I personally like: the one that suggests he's saying that because he doesn't want Alm to end up like him.

Like Jotari, I think that the writers were a bit confused as to what they wanted Rudolf to be. 

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Echoes does change a lot of things from Gaiden, not least Boey's skin colour the nature of Mila, Duma and Falchion, and is developed by a different person, so I personally take it as a re-imagining rather than a remake.

You do realize those changes were to update a game made in the 1990s? Those changes were meant to expand on what was there.

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

If you dispute my interpretation, you should know the answer to this.

But if he got rid of the Duma Faithful, he could raise Alm like he did Berkut. If Berkut's only problem was a lack of brand, raising Alm in his place would solve that problem.

I don't have an answer because I'm drawing directly from the games, and that's a question both Gaiden and Echoes left unanswered. But I will give a theory:

Getting rid of the Duma Faithful would have been far easier said than done. They are the mooches feeding off of I mean devout servants of Duma. Rudolf was simply among the first to notice Duma had gone mad and the end of Duma and Mila was coming. Many were either ignorant, or refusing to accept that it was so. So, in addition to the power they have from being servants of Duma, the Duma Faithful likely had significant influence in all of Rigel for their service to Duma. If Rudolf said, "Duma is dying! We must put him down and give him a death he'd want!" The Duma Faithful naturally would oppose him, and Rigel would likely be split: believe the emperor, or believe the servants of their god? Not only that, but the Duma Faithful are Rigelians. Rudolf would not only be ordering his men commit a seeming act of sheer heresy, he would also be ordering that they kill their own countrymen. Even as an Emperor, Rudolf could not give an order like that. Also, even if he could give such an order, and could lead the Rigelian army against the Duma Faithful, the witches could teleport, and the Duma Faithful could summon flying monsters, and Alm would be an infant in Rigel. They would do everything in their power to get into wherever Alm the brand-bearing infant is, and kill him to prevent the prophecy and keep Duma alive. But, a brand-bearer who is leading Valentia; that could order such an attack on Duma and the Duma Faithful without anyone questioning it.

He didn't raise Berkut; Berkut's parents did (if I recall correctly). That's mentioned both in the Berkut Rinea memory prism and briefly in Berkut's last conversation with Alm if I recall correctly. Berkut was simply Rudolf's heir apparent due to Berkut seemingly being Rudolf's closest living relative, since Alm was kept a secret. 

 

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The bolded implies they will work together. Are you saying that Rudolf doesn't think Mycen's position in Zofia, with access to the other brand-bearer who will work together with Alm to save Valentia, is another good reason for him to raise Alm?

No; that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that it is not the first thing on Rudolf's mind; it probably being a distant third at best on his reasons to give Alm to Mycen: one being that he trusts Mycen, and the other being to get Alm away from the Duma Faithful; both of those being the reasons he gave to Mycen for why. That might have been a side-benefit he thought of when thinking of his overarching plan, but it's not top or even top 2 on his reasons why he gave Alm to Mycen. Does that make sense?

22 hours ago, Baldrick said:

That's basically what I meant by him being a big believer in fate, so I don't know why you're disputing that he is.

Oh... Okay. I misunderstood what you meant. My apologies. In that case, then I agree.

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Baldrick; I think a lot of this is us simply misunderstanding each other.

Either that or differing interpretations. Incidentally, sorry if I come off as pushy.

Quote

No; I don't think that at all. I am well-aware that he doesn't just mean "someone who can kill Duma (though that is a big part of what needed to be done)." 

A person can be aware of what they consider a personal failing, and still not learn from it or be rid of it. 

I already explained how I reconcile these viewpoints: Rudolf cares about people other than himself, and is doing what he's doing because he believes it will save Valentia. But, because of his "strength is everything" mentality, his approach to saving the world; the way in which he is attempting to save Valentia, led to him becoming a villain. I just thought it adds to the tragedy of such a character if he's well-aware of what he's become, but thinks he cannot change. Does that make sense? 

Also, I merely listed three possible reasons why he said, "May you never forget how to be kind" and merely said which one I personally like: the one that suggests he's saying that because he doesn't want Alm to end up like him.

Like Jotari, I think that the writers were a bit confused as to what they wanted Rudolf to be. 

Yes, it makes sense. Indeed, he plans on being considered a villain, though his true intention is to lose to Alm.

That reasoning says to me Rudolf has a "strength and kindness together" mindset, and considers himself to be a failure who can't live up to that. If you don't see it that way we might as well agree to disagree.

I don't think it's a case of the writers not knowing what to do with him, but that they were keeping his intentions hidden from the player so as not to spoil those who hadn't played Gaiden.

Quote

You do realize those changes were to update a game made in the 1990s? Those changes were meant to expand on what was there.

It's one way to expand what was there. Just because Kusakihara works for IS and his version is "official", it doesn't mean other people have to throw out their headcanon of what the original was about.

Quote

I don't have an answer because I'm drawing directly from the games, and that's a question both Gaiden and Echoes left unanswered. But I will give a theory:

Getting rid of the Duma Faithful would have been far easier said than done. They are the mooches feeding off of I mean devout servants of Duma. Rudolf was simply among the first to notice Duma had gone mad and the end of Duma and Mila was coming. Many were either ignorant, or refusing to accept that it was so. So, in addition to the power they have from being servants of Duma, the Duma Faithful likely had significant influence in all of Rigel for their service to Duma. If Rudolf said, "Duma is dying! We must put him down and give him a death he'd want!" The Duma Faithful naturally would oppose him, and Rigel would likely be split: believe the emperor, or believe the servants of their god? Not only that, but the Duma Faithful are Rigelians. Rudolf would not only be ordering his men commit a seeming act of sheer heresy, he would also be ordering that they kill their own countrymen. Even as an Emperor, Rudolf could not give an order like that. Also, even if he could give such an order, and could lead the Rigelian army against the Duma Faithful, the witches could teleport, and the Duma Faithful could summon flying monsters, and Alm would be an infant in Rigel. They would do everything in their power to get into wherever Alm the brand-bearing infant is, and kill him to prevent the prophecy and keep Duma alive. But, a brand-bearer who is leading Valentia; that could order such an attack on Duma and the Duma Faithful without anyone questioning it.

Rigelians might be conflicted if asked to choose between their emperor and their high priest, but they wouldn't have any conflict in choosing between their high priest and a Zofian general, even if he is the emperor's son. The Rigellian army vs the Duma Faithful might be a tough battle, but the Zofian army vs the Rigellian army AND the Duma Faithful would be a far tougher one. Alm is less likely to die as an infant, but he's more likely to die as an adult so it's not a sound plan unless he gains some sort of tactical advantage from living in Zofia.

Quote

He didn't raise Berkut; Berkut's parents did (if I recall correctly). That's mentioned both in the Berkut Rinea memory prism and briefly in Berkut's last conversation with Alm if I recall correctly. Berkut was simply Rudolf's heir apparent due to Berkut seemingly being Rudolf's closest living relative, since Alm was kept a secret. 

Rudolf would likely have some say in how his heir apparent is raised. Berkut never mentions his father, so it may be the case Rudolf was his father figure. Either way, the point is if Alm was around Rudolf wouldn't need an heir apparent.

 

Quote

 

No; that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that it is not the first thing on Rudolf's mind; it probably being a distant third at best on his reasons to give Alm to Mycen: one being that he trusts Mycen, and the other being to get Alm away from the Duma Faithful; both of those being the reasons he gave to Mycen for why. That might have been a side-benefit he thought of when thinking of his overarching plan, but it's not top or even top 2 on his reasons why he gave Alm to Mycen. Does that make sense?

Agreed. All I was trying to say is that Rudolf knew Mycen was a Zofian general and so intended for Alm and Celica to be BFFs.

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 Although it's not really implied in the story (although it's not hard to see it if you so want), from a developer stand point I'd say Alm being raised in Zofia was also to give him a bigger grasp on everything. It's kinda like what they did with Corrin in fates except done correctly: He's a Rigelian Prince raised within Zofia, and although he does exhibit some unusual traits (like how he doesn't find Rigel cold while the rest of his army does), it reflects on how he would rule later on. 

 It's not that hard to headcanon that this is what Rudolf envisioned when he gave him away to Mycen. A Prince raised as a commoner in Zofia would understand them and would be more prone to unite the continent after he ascended onto the Rigel throne: the people of Rigel would accept the heir regardless of where he lived since he was still the heir apparent, while the people of Zofia would still need convincing. Alm's actions had the people in Valentia whispering about him becoming the next king even before his royal blood was made public, we hear about it in Celica's route and, if I'm not mistaken, in Alm's too when they go into that one village close to Nuibaba's Abode. 

Plus, it's not like he just waited until things happened by some magic string of fates. If Rigel didnt extend an offer for Desaix then the whole coup in Zofia wouldve never happened, so no Deliverance for Alm to join and eventually lead. If Mycen wasn't aware of the plan, he would probably have joined them and Alm's role standing out for him would not have been as big. Heck, the whole reason he was so adamant on not letting Alm leave Ram village was so he would stay safe there until the eventual war broke out.

I don't think he expected Alm to rise as much as he did; that was probably just some really good luck on his side. But he did lay out the events that would allow his growth as a soldier.

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12 hours ago, Marty said:

Alm's actions had the people in Valentia whispering about him becoming the next king even before his royal blood was made public, we hear about it in Celica's route and, if I'm not mistaken, in Alm's too when they go into that one village close to Nuibaba's Abode.

There's also that people like Luthier simply assume that Alm is to be their King long before the Delivarance invades Rigel. Luthier outright states that he thought Alm was to be their king so this is a sentiment likely echoed by most people in Zofia.

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On 3/12/2018 at 1:19 PM, SoulWeaver said:

Sad part is most people don't believe me and think I'm just making it up to sound cool. Ah, well, that's life.

They could believe you if we ran the math.

Normal has 182 HP, Hard 200, both have 20 Def.

Falchion is 10 Mt. Alm can have up to 41 Atk, setting it lower would be more realistic, but you can feed Alm 3 Sacred Spring boosts and 3 Ambrosias (2 from side quest, one from Celica). 10 + 41 = 51 Atk - 20 Def = is 31 damage. Duma has 10 Spd and 0 Luck so Alm is guaranteed to double and has no issuing critting him. Assuming Alm has 25 Skl and 15 Lck, that is a 20% chance of critting assuming the old FE2 formula of (Luck + Skill)/2 is still being used. 30 + 30x3 = 120. Not enough to kill Duma. But 31x3 + 31x3 = 186, which is just enough to ORKO Normal Duma.

So with massive RNG blessings and or favoritism, Alm can ORKO Duma on Normal with maxed Atk, but never on Hard.

 

On 3/12/2018 at 8:19 PM, SoulWeaver said:

Basically the real lesson we can all pull from this is that Random Dread Fighter Illusion(who I will call Yoshi because why not) = on-par with Duma.

I learned the exact same lesson vs. Duma first time through SoV. Didn't know Faye was best as a Cleric b/c she had Rescue (she went Peg thanks to me overrating the class- apparently it was better in OC Gaiden) and Tobin ended up being my bleh Dread Fighter. So how did I handle the challenges of Act 4? Grind Silque to level 18 and spam the Dread Fighters!

My battle with Nuibaba was simple- Dread Illusion forward march up the cliff! Gray and Python the Snipers did some sniping from below, but otherwise it was all Dread Invoke spam, healing Silque with Kliff when needed. It was a war of attrition with Nuibaba's forces screwing up in the prolonged battle. It felt like a page of out Advance Wars- that braindead but often effective agains the CPU strat of Mech Rush- bazookas (now swords) swarming my foes to their deaths.

Dread Fighters were just as heavily relied on vs. Duma- they probably did like 50 or more battles with him. 

Silque's Invoke takes forever to get, but it's game breakingly strong until Thabes. Genny's Soldiers are very useful at the beginning of SoV and still has use as a decoy machine later. Tatiana's Pegs are unfortunately too late to come and very underpowered to be of any use I discovered, if only they were Falcoknights.

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31 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

They could believe you if we ran the math.

Normal has 182 HP, Hard 200, both have 20 Def.

Falchion is 10 Mt. Alm can have up to 41 Atk, setting it lower would be more realistic, but you can feed Alm 3 Sacred Spring boosts and 3 Ambrosias (2 from side quest, one from Celica). 10 + 41 = 51 Atk - 20 Def = is 31 damage. Duma has 10 Spd and 0 Luck so Alm is guaranteed to double and has no issuing critting him. Assuming Alm has 25 Skl and 15 Lck, that is a 20% chance of critting assuming the old FE2 formula of (Luck + Skill)/2 is still being used. 30 + 30x3 = 120. Not enough to kill Duma. But 31x3 + 31x3 = 186, which is just enough to ORKO Normal Duma.

So with massive RNG blessings and or favoritism, Alm can ORKO Duma on Normal with maxed Atk, but never on Hard.

Not to mention it becomes even more possible on later visits as you can forge Falchion up to 12 mt. Top it off by overclassing and you can increase Alm's attack cap.

Having just completed a playthrough with the Star Jacinth from the beginning, I can confirm the claim it's possible. Just requires two crits.

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