Who Should Be a Future Legendary?

[bottlegnomes]

42 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

I've explained that thoroughly.  However looks like we won't agree here.  Let's see when Fire Emblem Switch releases.  Or better yet let's wait a decade and see if the majority of most liked characters are from Fates/Awakening.  

I mean it is common sense, not calling anyone dumb.  

Do you have any basis to suggest that Echoes was actually less advertised other than assumptions?

Well no duh them being newer helped in their popularity. That's not the issue people have; the issue is that you're attributing all or at least the majority of their characters popularity to their newness. Being someone who was here when RD was still in development and through its release, I can 100% say that FE7 characters were just as popular as a lot of the Tellius characters, and that actually seems to still hold fairly true. Heck, Micaiah's popularity has actually gone way up over the years, as has really the whole opinion on RD.

Anyway, we've really spiraled off at this point. The whole gist of what everyone's saying is that alts exist because they're guaranteed to please people. Whether you think that's selfish for people to be okay with or not is up to you, but I would like to return to that question one more time; if you don't address it this time I'll consider it dropped. For the record, "that's not the case" or "there are still popular characters left" isn't addressing it. That aside, how is preferring a character that will please a majority of people and annoy a small section actually more selfish than wanting new characters that will please a smaller percentage but also annoy a smaller percentage?

@Ice Dragon You have a plum tree in your front yard? I hate you. I want a plum tree :(

Edited March 29, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Jotari]

Echoes is doing pretty well saleswise last time I checked. I doubt it'll beat Fates and Awakening's output, but I think that's more because it's released later in the conesole's life rather than being a remake (and they also set a really high bar). And if you want to dial back the clock a few years, Shadow Dragon, a handheld remake, sold better than Radiant Dawn, their big original conesole title. I think generally more people actually like Radiant Dawn better, so that probably goes down to Shadow Dragon being advertised more. Let's also not forget that the best selling entry in the series prior to Awakening was half a remake and half an original title.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jotari

[Wanda]

Quote

Who should be a future legendary?

Marcus. Pent. Seth.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Wanda

[DraceEmpressa]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Echoes is doing pretty well saleswise last time I checked. I doubt it'll beat Fates and Awakening's output, but I think that's more because it's released later in the conesole's life rather than being a remake (and they also set a really high bar). And if you want to dial back the clock a few years, Shadow Dragon, a handheld remake, sold better than Radiant Dawn, their big original conesole title. I think generally more people actually like Radiant Dawn better, so that probably goes down to Shadow Dragon being advertised more. Let's also not forget that the best selling entry in the series prior to Awakening was half a remake and half an original title.

It's doing well overseas but it flopped in Japan. SD was the opposite , which was the reason why New Mystery was never officially translated. 

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, DraceEmpressa said:

It's doing well overseas but it flopped in Japan. SD was the opposite , which was the reason why New Mystery was never officially translated. 

I'd take that as evidence that there's no hard and fast laws as to how well a remake is advertised or sells compared to an original game.

[SniperGYS]

http://jsketch12.tumblr.com/post/172141366540

[Lewyn]

16 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

 

Anyway, we've really spiraled off at this point. The whole gist of what everyone's saying is that alts exist because they're guaranteed to please people. Whether you think that's selfish for people to be okay with or not is up to you, but I would like to return to that question one more time; if you don't address it this time I'll consider it dropped. For the record, "that's not the case" or "there are still popular characters left" isn't addressing it. That aside, how is preferring a character that will please a majority of people and annoy a small section actually more selfish than wanting new characters that will please a smaller percentage but also annoy a smaller percentage?

 

There is still popular characters left is addressing your question, and you are also making assumptions.  Firstly since there are many popular characters left to add to the game, the proper version of your question should be.  "How is preferring a character that will please a majority of people and annoy a small section actually more selfish than wanting new characters that please a majority of people and annoy a much smaller percantage?"  To which the answer is obvious.  

Now to your assumptions.  Firstly you are saying that the majority are thrilled with alts, and only a small minority don't like them.  There is no way to ascertain that, and from various social media outlets, it would seem that there could very well be a much larger percentage of people that dislike this than you think.  Even with your beloved Awakening banner, many were upset that an alt Chrom got in over the many Awakening characters left to be added.  I can also add something that is not an assumption.  Those whose favorite, or one of their favorite, characters is not in the game yet would not likely be very displeased with alts.  Cause that means on average it will take a longer time for whatever character they are waiting for to arrive.  

 

[Ice Dragon]

25 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

"How is preferring a character that will please a majority of people and annoy a small section actually more selfish than wanting new characters that please a majority of people and annoy a much smaller percantage?"  To which the answer is obvious.

A 90% majority and a 51% majority aren't the same thing. It doesn't even have to be that stark of a difference. Even a 65% majority is significantly greater than a 55% majority when the size of the player base is as large as it is.

Furthermore, the number of people who are annoyed compared to the number of people who are indifferent doesn't really matter. There will always be someone who is annoyed at something, and any one reason to be annoyed is but a drop in the bucket of things people are annoyed about.

 

25 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

and from various social media outlets, it would seem that there could very well be a much larger percentage of people that dislike this than you think.

It's a well documented fact that negative opinions are more likely to be voiced than positive opinions. People who have negative opinions have greater motivation to voice their opinions.

 

25 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

I can also add something that is not an assumption.  Those whose favorite, or one of their favorite, characters is not in the game yet would not likely be very displeased with alts.

I'm pretty sure you messed up the number of negatives in that sentence.

I'm also perfectly fine waiting for Dheginhansea, Kurthnaga, Rajaion, Ashnard, Vika, Sephiran, Astrid, Jill, Haar, Nils, Limstella, Nergal, Kishuna, Murdock, Idenn, Hasha Zephiel, Alle, Tiena, Mediuth, Xane, Lorenz, divine dragon Tiki, Nagi, Naga, Mila, Duma, Cuan, Ethlin, Julius, and Lakche to be implemented, and I'm almost certain I've missed a few people in that list.

Some people have this thing called patience. Some people have this thing called a budget.

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

A 90% majority and a 51% majority aren't the same thing. It doesn't even have to be that stark of a difference. Even a 65% majority is significantly greater than a 55% majority when the size of the player base is as large as it is.

Furthermore, the number of people who are annoyed compared to the number of people who are indifferent doesn't really matter. There will always be someone who is annoyed at something, and any one reason to be annoyed is but a drop in the bucket of things people are annoyed about.

 

It's a well documented fact that negative opinions are more likely to be voiced than positive opinions. People who have negative opinions have greater motivation to voice their opinions.

 

I'm pretty sure you messed up the number of negatives in that sentence.

I'm also perfectly fine waiting for Dheginhansea, Kurthnaga, Rajaion, Ashnard, Vika, Sephiran, Astrid, Jill, Haar, Nils, Limstella, Nergal, Kishuna, Murdock, Idenn, Hasha Zephiel, Alle, Tiena, Mediuth, Xane, Lorenz, divine dragon Tiki, Nagi, Naga, Mila, Duma, Cuan, Ethlin, Julius, and Lakche to be implemented, and I'm almost certain I've missed a few people in that list.

Some people have this thing called patience. Some people have this thing called a budget.

Well sorry to tell you but you will be waiting forever at this rate.  Many of those characters you listed aren't super popular.  Do you expect this game to last 100 years?  How many characters are in the series again?  What is the rate they are releasing new heroes, 1 a month?  Let's be generous and say they give 20 a year, how long will it take?   

Yes and there will always be people annoyed about something and complain, but does that mean that complaints have no validity regardless of reason or how many do so?  Also I'm pretty sure it would be a much larger majority that would enjoy a popular character that has yet to get into the game vs a popular character that already has several versions.  Mine is an assumption as well, but much more likely.  Also people annoyed at something matters cause those people won't pull.  People who don't care either way will pull if the unit has great stats or unique skills/type.  

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Lewyn

[bottlegnomes]

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

There is still popular characters left is addressing your question, and you are also making assumptions.  Firstly since there are many popular characters left to add to the game, the proper version of your question should be.  "How is preferring a character that will please a majority of people and annoy a small section actually more selfish than wanting new characters that please a majority of people and annoy a much smaller percantage?"  To which the answer is obvious.  

Now to your assumptions.  Firstly you are saying that the majority are thrilled with alts, and only a small minority don't like them.  There is no way to ascertain that, and from various social media outlets, it would seem that there could very well be a much larger percentage of people that dislike this than you think.  Even with your beloved Awakening banner, many were upset that an alt Chrom got in over the many Awakening characters left to be added.  I can also add something that is not an assumption.  Those whose favorite, or one of their favorite, characters is not in the game yet would not likely be very displeased with alts.  Cause that means on average it will take a longer time for whatever character they are waiting for to arrive.  

Okay, first off my sole pull on that banner was my free pull, so cut the snark because not only is it irrelevant to the validity of your argument, you're outright wrong.

As to my actual question, Ice Dragon covered where you did respond pretty nicely, so I don't have much else to add other than that your response still came down to "that's not the case." At this point I feel like all that's left is to assume you don't have any other argument because you keep going back to that which we've given you various reasons why that's not necessarily the case and why that's irrelevant to the point we're trying to make.

For the record, one example I gave had all parties being minorities of the player population and even assumed a fairly large percentage didn't like alts.

Percival is probably never getting in the game and Zeke I'm contented enough with Camus, so yeah, two of my absolute favorites aren't in the game. Then there's all my previously mentioned ones that have effectively 0% chance. Would I like them in? Yes. Am I going to tell people who like alts they're selfish because it might be delaying my favorites? No. I emphasize might because even assuming no alts and 4 per new character banner, plus 1 GHB and one TT character, a month with 500ish FE characters, that's 7 years. There's a very good chance that the game won't last that long and a lot of people's favorites would never get in anyway, as I'm willing to bet a lot of FE fans have at least one or two favorites that are largely irrelevant characters.

Edited March 29, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Arcphoenix]

Tiki. Honestly I was expecting her to be the legendary Hero of Fire, if not poor old Marth.

[C. Turtle]

Y'know, I think I've posted in this thread, and have been following along with the discussion, but I never actually gave my opinion on the original topic. Guess I should probably do that.

I'm among those who actually really enjoy the story and characters of Heroes, so I'd be absolutely down with more OCs. I was honestly kinda disappointed when we started getting lords instead of new OCs, but a new one every month would probably make the main story to crowded in terms of how many characters they'd need to work in, so it's understandable. Wouldn't mind a new one once we finally meet up with Gunnthra in the story and clear up that loose end, though.

As for lord, while I'm not particularly fussed about them, now that they've done three lord alts already (counting Grima as an alt. for the moment since that's how IS seems to want to paint it for some reason), it'd be kinda weird if they cut it off here. I'm expecting pretty much every lord/main character to get a Legendary version at some point down the line.

Along with the lords, though, I'd really like it if we started getting characters from FE lore. I just think it'd be really neat getting these characters spoken of in legend as actual Legendary Heroes. They probably wouldn't have the same sort of appeal as the lords do, though. We've already had male Grima sort of expanding on his lore and backstory and such, so I think having lore characters appear in Heroes would just be a really neat way of expanding the lore of the various FE worlds.

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Well sorry to tell you but you will be waiting forever at this rate.

No, shit, Sherlock. You don't say. But if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd know that that has nothing to do with the point I made.

The point I was responding to was you saying "people who have favorite characters who are not yet in the game are annoyed at the inclusion of alts in the standard banners." My counterpoint was "I am someone who has many favorite characters who are not yet in the game and I am not at all annoyed at the inclusion of alts in the standard banners".

As far as I can tell, your responses in this discussion have largely been taking sentences without their context and responding to what the sentence says without paying any attention to why the sentence was posted in the first place or how the sentence fits in with the other party's argument. If you need me to simplify that, I'm saying "you're picking at straws here". You can neither offer concrete support for your own arguments nor can you follow the actual conversation.

Responding to you feels like instant messaging one of those AOL Santa bots from two decades ago that could only pick out single words from your messages and respond with a single set phrase based on that one word regardless of any of the other words in your message.

 

/blunt old geezer

[Lord-Zero]

Since they made a “legendary” variant for Grima, the gates are quite open for a “legendary” Medeus or even Jahn. 

[ShadowGuy1]

It's quite likely that the next legendary hero is going to be a green unit given the fact that Guunthra will not be present while Epharim, Ike, and Female Grima will. I think it is very likely that we will get a Hector legendary hero wielding another variant of Armads since he seems to make the most sense as a legendary hero. Garon/Camilla with Bolverk are also possibilities, but 
Hector seems likely. However, I feel characters such as Marth, Alm, Celica, and various dragons and deities in Fire Emblem should be the next legendary hero. 

[Book Bro]

Wind legendary: Gen 2 Lewyn

Water legendary: Some new version of Azura, Kurthnaga, Emperor Marth

Fire legendary: Emperor Alvis, Crazed Ashnard, Promoted Micaiah 

Earth legendary: Deghinsea

[Lewyn]

17 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, shit, Sherlock. You don't say. But if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd know that that has nothing to do with the point I made.

The point I was responding to was you saying "people who have favorite characters who are not yet in the game are annoyed at the inclusion of alts in the standard banners." My counterpoint was "I am someone who has many favorite characters who are not yet in the game and I am not at all annoyed at the inclusion of alts in the standard banners".

As far as I can tell, your responses in this discussion have largely been taking sentences without their context and responding to what the sentence says without paying any attention to why the sentence was posted in the first place or how the sentence fits in with the other party's argument. If you need me to simplify that, I'm saying "you're picking at straws here". You can neither offer concrete support for your own arguments nor can you follow the actual conversation.

Responding to you feels like instant messaging one of those AOL Santa bots from two decades ago that could only pick out single words from your messages and respond with a single set phrase based on that one word regardless of any of the other words in your message.

 

/blunt old geezer

Lol, and I'm the one accused of being insulting.  

1 hour ago, ShadowGuy1 said:

It's quite likely that the next legendary hero is going to be a green unit given the fact that Guunthra will not be present while Epharim, Ike, and Female Grima will. I think it is very likely that we will get a Hector legendary hero wielding another variant of Armads since he seems to make the most sense as a legendary hero. Garon/Camilla with Bolverk are also possibilities, but 
Hector seems likely. However, I feel characters such as Marth, Alm, Celica, and various dragons and deities in Fire Emblem should be the next legendary hero. 

Yes green.  However if Hector what are they going to do, give him a 3rd version of  Armads?  Then again, Ike Infantry, Ephraim Cavalry, F Robin Flier, ? Armor?  Fjorm is infantry and Gunnthra is cavalry, so we haven't had an armor legendary yet.  

Whatever it is hope it is more interesting than the past few months.  F Grima Robin is a bunch of reused assets (animations, aura, lines,) and is an alt of an alt (M Grima Robin).  Ike was a slightly improved version of regular sword Ike but with 4CD Aether.  Cavalry Ephraim at least offers something very interesting gameplay wise, even if was an alt.  

[bottlegnomes]

6 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Whatever it is hope it is more interesting than the past few months.  F Grima Robin is a bunch of reused assets (animations, aura, lines,) and is an alt of an alt (M Grima Robin).  Ike was a slightly improved version of regular sword Ike but with 4CD Aether.  Cavalry Ephraim at least offers something very interesting gameplay wise, even if was an alt.  

They could do old man Hector and make up an axe for him. But my guess is they'll just give him a unique skill or a unique special, like the did with Ike. If they do make Hector the next one, I'm guessing they won't kill themselves to differentiate him, especially with the upcoming brave one.

Also, I'm still not really sure on how you want them to differentiate Grima so that he wasn't an alt. He's in some ways more different from normal Robin than Masked Marth is from normal Marth.

[Lord-Zero]

5 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

They could do old man Hector and make up an axe for him. But my guess is they'll just give him a unique skill or a unique special, like the did with Ike. If they do make Hector the next one, I'm guessing they won't kill themselves to differentiate him, especially with the upcoming brave one. 

FE6 Hector is possible but I’d prefer someone else like...Garon if we really have to go with an armored legendary “hero” that uses an axe. As for FE6 Hector, Awakening had an axe called “Hector’s Axe” so they could just roll with that one. 

[Lewyn]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

They could do old man Hector and make up an axe for him. But my guess is they'll just give him a unique skill or a unique special, like the did with Ike. If they do make Hector the next one, I'm guessing they won't kill themselves to differentiate him, especially with the upcoming brave one.

Also, I'm still not really sure on how you want them to differentiate Grima so that he wasn't an alt. He's in some ways more different from normal Robin than Masked Marth is from normal Marth.

Old man Hector with Wolf Beil maybe?  

I think they could have at least done a lot more animation wise and changing the lines and such, with F Grima Robin vs M Grima Robin.  

 

[bottlegnomes]

13 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

FE6 Hector is possible but I’d prefer someone else like...Garon if we really have to go with an armored legendary “hero” that uses an axe. As for FE6 Hector, Awakening had an axe called “Hector’s Axe” so they could just roll with that one. 

It seems like they've gotten away from the [So-and-so]'s [Weapon] naming convention, but maybe I'm just forgetting something obvious.

Oh, yeah, agreed. While I quite like Hector as a character, between the LA version and the upcoming brave one, I'd much rather a lot of different characters. I'd be up for like Lewyn, Ced, or maybe Medeus? Or Greil as a sort of PP version of Brave Ike! That'd be awesome. That said, if they're deadset on a popular lordish alt, maybe Camilla?

@Lewyn Wolf Beil could definitely work. Might seem disappointing downgrading from Armads, but it's a lot more likely for L!Hector than B!Hector. For Robin, I meant regular "High Deliverer" Robin vs. Grima.

Edited March 30, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Lord-Zero]

6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

It seems like they've gotten away from the [So-and-so]'s [Weapon] naming convention, but maybe I'm just forgetting something obvious.

Oh, yeah, agreed. While I quite like Hector as a character, between the LA version and the upcoming brave one, I'd much rather a lot of different characters. I'd be up for like Lewyn, Ced, or maybe Medeus? Or Greil as a sort of PP version of Brave Ike! That'd be awesome. That said, if they're deadset on a popular lordish alt, maybe Camilla?

Felicia’s Plate and Hinoka’s Spear would like to have a word with you. 

Camilla could use an alt but if anyone’s using Bölverk, it should be Garon. 

[bottlegnomes]

34 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Felicia’s Plate and Hinoka’s Spear would like to have a word with you. 

Camilla could use an alt but if anyone’s using Bölverk, it should be Garon. 

And there it is :P

They could give her Aurgelmir I guess, beause yeah, Garon would be too awesome to not have Bölverk. Even if he's a garbage villain, he does have a sweet design.

Edited March 31, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[XRay]

On 3/29/2018 at 3:14 PM, Lewyn said:

Also people annoyed at something matters cause those people won't pull. 

From a business perspective, to put it mildly, they hardly matter. I am pretty sure it was @Ice Dragon (if it was someone else, I apologize) who mentioned Zelgius being more important (from Intelligent System's point of view) than Micaiah due to whales pulling for him to compete in the Arena. The revenue from pods upon pods of dolphins pulling for Micaiah is nothing when compared to the revenue from the few whales trying to stay at the top of Tier 20 Arena and top 1,000 in Arena Assault.

Free players only matters to the extent that they keep whales interested in the game, such as by giving whales a good feeling for being at the top of the competitive hierarchy. In fact, if Intelligent Systems can find a way to keep whales interested in the game while removing free players and maybe even minnows and dolphins, they would immediately do so to reduce their overhead costs.

Here are some sources:
"Infographic: ‘Whales’ Account for 70% of In-App Purchase Revenue" — Adweek
"How Japanese Mobile Game Makers Go After Whales: 5 Popular Gacha Mechanics" — Kantan Games

Edited March 31, 2018 by XRay

[DraceEmpressa]

52 minutes ago, XRay said:

From a business perspective, to put it mildly, they hardly matter. I am pretty sure it was @Ice Dragon (if it was someone else, I apologize) who mentioned Zelgius being more important (from Intelligent System's point of view) than Micaiah due to whales pulling for him to compete in the Arena. The revenue from pods upon pods of dolphins pulling for Micaiah is nothing when compared to the revenue from the few whales trying to stay at the top of Tier 20 Arena and top 1,000 in Arena Assault.

Free players only matters to the extent that they keep whales interested in the game, such as by giving whales a good feeling for being at the top of the competitive hierarchy. In fact, if Intelligent Systems can find a way to keep whales interested in the game while removing free players and maybe even minnows and dolphins, they would immediately do so to reduce their overhead costs.

Here are some sources:
"Infographic: ‘Whales’ Account for 70% of In-App Purchase Revenue" — Adweek
"How Japanese Mobile Game Makers Go After Whales: 5 Popular Gacha Mechanics" — Kantan Games

Isn't that what alts are for ? Alts usually are better usability-wise than their originals,  whales will pull for them, and how much of those people who whines about alts are competitive player whales?No, they would be grateful for a stronger unit, uncaring who they are. That being said, gachas are usually still have f2p players no matter how brutal their summon rates and how much alts there is, but their life is supported by the whales.