How exactly was Arvis blackmailed?

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I mean...he is a villain. Did you miss the part where he laughed as he betrayed Sigurd, praised around the guys potentially former lover and then set him on fire?

It was said by Kaga the latter part of showing Deirdre to Sigurd was in fact to see if there was truth in the worry that Sigurd and Deirdre were married.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It was said by Kaga the latter part of showing Deirdre to Sigurd was in fact to see if there was truth in the worry that Sigurd and Deirdre were married.

I know. That's why I said potentially.

[RedRob]

It's just that Arvis has been described as a tragic villain, which implies one would feel some sympathy for him, but honestly, guy brought everything that happened on to himself.

[Dandy Druid]

Well, rumors don't need a credible source to be spread. A cult member who has earned the trust of everyday people or disguised as a merchant can easily spread misinformation, which may cause people to question Arvis.

Plus, they had other dirt on him:

• conspired to kill the king
• killed other nobles, such as Sigurd, in cold blood and reveal that Sigurd was not a rebel at all.
• He's married to his SISTER.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, RedRob said:

It's just that Arvis has been described as a tragic villain, which implies one would feel some sympathy for him, but honestly, guy brought everything that happened on to himself.

That's the tragedy.

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's the tragedy.

Karma's a bitch.

[RedRob]

Exactly. Why did Arvis feel the need to create his utopia by basically starting a civil war by killing off the Prince and blaming on it on a noble house that actually deserved to be called that, unlike the monsters that were his co-conspirators? The guy is less tragic and more idiotic.

[omegaxis1]

34 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Exactly. Why did Arvis feel the need to create his utopia by basically starting a civil war by killing off the Prince and blaming on it on a noble house that actually deserved to be called that, unlike the monsters that were his co-conspirators? The guy is less tragic and more idiotic.

He needed to grab power. To be in the highest position of power so he can truly shape the continent in how he sees is just. There were several people and houses that would be in his way. And before Julius was possessed by Loptyr, Arvis did a really great job that the people loved. 

The end justifies the means. 

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Exactly. Why did Arvis feel the need to create his utopia by basically starting a civil war by killing off the Prince and blaming on it on a noble house that actually deserved to be called that, unlike the monsters that were his co-conspirators? The guy is less tragic and more idiotic.

What was idiotic about the plan? It worked. The only real flaw is that Seliph, Leif and Shanon managed to survive to spark rebellions later.

[RedRob]

I'm just saying he probably could have helped Grannvale in ways with far less bloodshed.

Edited March 20, 2018 by RedRob

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, RedRob said:

I'm just saying he probably could have helped Grannvale in ways with far less bloodshed.

Maybe. However, Arvis was extremely ambitious. He saw the state of the world, the prejudice that people have, he wanted to change that. 

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, RedRob said:

I'm just saying he probably could have helped Grannvale in ways with far less bloodshed.

Yeah, that's what makes him a villain. Although, now that I think of it, I can't recall if there's any suggestion that Alvis was in with Langbolt and Reptor from the start. Claud never names him as a perpretrator, so it's more than possible that he had nothing to do with Kurth's death and just siezed control of an already developing situation.

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, that's what makes him a villain. Although, now that I think of it, I can't recall if there's any suggestion that Alvis was in with Langbolt and Reptor from the start. Claud never names him as a perpretrator, so it's more than possible that he had nothing to do with Kurth's death and just siezed control of an already developing situation.

Arvis was working with them:

Quote

Alvis:
“Lord Langobalt was killed, was he?”

Leptor:
“Alvis! Now are we going to do!? You’re the one who said Sigurd wouldn’t pose any problems! You KNEW Langobalt and I sent most of our military off with our sons to subdue other areas. You’ve explicitly gone against your word!”

Alvis:
“Lord Leptor, calm down a second. I already have Velthomer troops positioned in the Yied Desert. And Thracia’s mercenaries should be here shortly. Leptor, as long as you and I engage our armies together, the rebels WILL fall.”

Leptor:
“Alvis, you better be right this time. You can have the throne for all I care. But you best not forget about us once you become king.”

Alvis:
“Don’t worry. When this war is finished, your family will take Agustria. And the Dozel family will take Isaac. Rest assured. Those countries are rightfully yours.”

Leptor:
“Well, alright then. We’ll take on the rebels with all we’ve got.”

Also, Claude seemed to have already foreseen the Battle of Belhalla, but understood that it wouldn't be able to be prevented no matter what. 

Arvis is not a man that would just stand beside and be merely an opportunist. He is a man that plans and makes sure that things go according to his desires. He just couldn't see beyond Deirdre because of his strong mother complex.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Arvis was working with them:

Also, Claude seemed to have already foreseen the Battle of Belhalla, but understood that it wouldn't be able to be prevented no matter what. 

Arvis is not a man that would just stand beside and be merely an opportunist. He is a man that plans and makes sure that things go according to his desires. He just couldn't see beyond Deirdre because of his strong mother complex.

He was obviously working with them (well, actually they thought he was working with them, but really he was working against them), but was he working with them from the start is the question. Alvis does plan things out, but that doesn't immediatly make him complicit of treason, it's more than possible that he uncovered the treachery after Kurth was killed and made himself part of Leptor and Langbolt's coalition. Recall, the opening to the first chapter says he has little to do with govermental affairs. On the other hand, Andre seems to be part of the plot from the start and Blaggi equally makes no mention of him.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

He was obviously working with them (well, actually they thought he was working with them, but really he was working against them), but was he working with them from the start is the question. Alvis does plan things out, but that doesn't immediatly make him complicit of treason, it's more than possible that he uncovered the treachery after Kurth was killed and made himself part of Leptor and Langbolt's coalition. Recall, the opening to the first chapter says he has little to do with govermental affairs. On the other hand, Andre seems to be part of the plot from the start and Blaggi equally makes no mention of him.

That might be the case. But remember that all of these events had the Loptyr cult moving behind the scenes to instigate the attacks, and Arvis had been working with them the entire time to create the unrest. So the use of Langbolt and Leptor were also part of the plan, and he merely worked with them to make use of them. It was all a way to make use of them all as pawns so that he could in the end take all the power himself. 

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That might be the case. But remember that all of these events had the Loptyr cult moving behind the scenes to instigate the attacks, and Arvis had been working with them the entire time to create the unrest. So the use of Langbolt and Leptor were also part of the plan, and he merely worked with them to make use of them. It was all a way to make use of them all as pawns so that he could in the end take all the power himself. 

We don't know how long Alvis has been working with the lopt cult either though. He shows up as a nice guy in Chapter 0, and then the next time we see him he's interacting with the cultists in Chapter 5. There's a massive time skip in between those two points, several years in fact. They really manage to accomplish a lot with the character who basiclly only has four short appearnces in the game, but I would like one or two more scenes with him in part 1 to clarify such points, and to just generally keep his presence alive at the start of the story. As he's basically absent for the entire thing until the end where he plays the most crucial role.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We don't know how long Alvis has been working with the lopt cult either though. He shows up as a nice guy in Chapter 0, and then the next time we see him he's interacting with the cultists in Chapter 5. There's a massive time skip in between those two points, several years in fact. They really manage to accomplish a lot with the character who basiclly only has four short appearnces in the game, but I would like one or two more scenes with him in part 1 to clarify such points, and to just generally keep his presence alive at the start of the story. As he's basically absent for the entire thing until the end where he plays the most crucial role.

Except Arvis is already mentioned to be working with the Loptyr Cult all the way in chapter two when he comes up in the conversation with Manfroy and another guy. I do not believe in this part there was a great length of time that had passed here. Everything suggests that Arvis has been with the Loptyr cult and using them before the story even began. And that's the genius of it. Arvis doesn't need to go out of his way in the long run. He mostly just stays at the capital, near the ear of the king, and make his moves from afar. Like controlling the pieces in a chessboard. Arvis was very smart and played his moves well. It's a shame that Manfroy was just one step ahead of him there.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except Arvis is already mentioned to be working with the Loptyr Cult all the way in chapter two when he comes up in the conversation with Manfroy and another guy. I do not believe in this part there was a great length of time that had passed here. Everything suggests that Arvis has been with the Loptyr cult and using them before the story even began. And that's the genius of it. Arvis doesn't need to go out of his way in the long run. He mostly just stays at the capital, near the ear of the king, and make his moves from afar. Like controlling the pieces in a chessboard. Arvis was very smart and played his moves well. It's a shame that Manfroy was just one step ahead of him there.

I think that line actually exonerates Alvis from the assassination.

Dark mage:
“Archbishop Manfroy, I just witnessed the assassination of Prince Kurth.”

Manfroy:
“Is that so? This is getting interesting. Only one descendant remains of our old foe Narga, and he will die before long. Then all that’s left is the revival of our Dark Lord. Then the world will be ours!”

Dark mage:
“Has Alvis consented to your proposal?”

Manfroy:
“Of course he did. He’s got Loputousu’s blood flowing in his veins. And if that ever got out, they would burn him at the stake for being of Loptian descent. I just wonder if someone as arrogant as Alvis can keep quiet.”

Dark mage:
“Alright. Next we betray the king and once you become emperor…”

Manfroy:
“There’s a bit more to it than that. To resurrect Lord Loputousu, we’ll need not only Alvis but also that woman’s daughter.”

Kurth has only just been killed, and Alvis has only just agreed to start working with them. These are two members of the cult exchanging two seperate pieces of information with each other. Manfroy doesn't know Kurth is dead yet (though he of course arranged it) and Manfroy is the one who has only just brought Alvis into the fold. Therefore, there's no real way Alvis could have been complicit in the death of the prince (of course, it also means he was preparing to betray the crown before the prince was killed and wasn't simply taking advantage of any situation beyond the conflict in Isaac, that's nuiance for you).

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think that line actually exonerates Alvis from the assassination.

Dark mage:
“Archbishop Manfroy, I just witnessed the assassination of Prince Kurth.”

Manfroy:
“Is that so? This is getting interesting. Only one descendant remains of our old foe Narga, and he will die before long. Then all that’s left is the revival of our Dark Lord. Then the world will be ours!”

Dark mage:
“Has Alvis consented to your proposal?”

Manfroy:
“Of course he did. He’s got Loputousu’s blood flowing in his veins. And if that ever got out, they would burn him at the stake for being of Loptian descent. I just wonder if someone as arrogant as Alvis can keep quiet.”

Dark mage:
“Alright. Next we betray the king and once you become emperor…”

Manfroy:
“There’s a bit more to it than that. To resurrect Lord Loputousu, we’ll need not only Alvis but also that woman’s daughter.”

Kurth has only just been killed, and Alvis has only just agreed to start working with them. These are two members of the cult exchanging two seperate pieces of information with each other. Manfroy doesn't know Kurth is dead yet (though he of course arranged it) and Manfroy is the one who has only just brought Alvis into the fold. Therefore, there's no real way Alvis could have been complicit in the death of the prince (of course, it also means he was preparing to betray the crown before the prince was killed and wasn't simply taking advantage of any situation beyond the conflict in Isaac, that's nuiance for you).

Hmm, that's a very good case here. It does feel like the death of Kurth may not have been Manfroy or Arvis' plan. Though mind you, I am quite sure that Manfroy intended to kill Kurth sooner or later to get rid of the one with the Book of Naga. 

This part I feel could be good for Arvis though, as this means he didn't betray the man that had been supporting him when he was a child after Arvis lost his parents.