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How exactly was Arvis blackmailed?

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From what I understand, Arvis was blackmailed by the Loptyr cult into helping them be threatening to reveal he was a member of their bloodline. Except...

They're the evil cult. Who's going to believe any accusations from them, especially against a noble who 's the leader of the capital's knights?

Did I misunderstand something, or miss some important detail?

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I pondered that as well. Did you ever read this thread by any chance? 

]

Edited by Køkø

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The lopt don't really need to scream from the rooftops that the information comes from them. They already have strong ties with the leaders of several countries so they might as well have Gandolf or Shagaal leak the info or just let the rumor emerge in villages and let the villagers spread the word. 

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Well, the thing is, sometimes, you don't need to back up claims with evidence, if there are people who won't care. And in something like politics, sadly, is such a case. Some people will believe it no matter what, and some may not, but if they want something out of Arvis, they'd pretend to believe to put pressure on him. This is likely what Arvis fears, regardless if the Cult has any actual evidence. Once word spread, even if nothing is proven, people will still talk about it, debate, mumur, plot, etc.

There's also the fact of Arvis's mother. I believe it wasn't a secret she came from Verdane's Secret Forest, and if the cult could trace Gale's lineage to the forest, then it's probably something they can prove, that Cygun may have Loptyr's blood. Again, it doesn't have to be concrete. Just by raising the possiblity, people will begin thinking about it. And can Arvis prove he doesn't have Loptyr blood? Proving someone has or doesn't have Major blood is easy, but I don't think it's stated how you can prove you have or not have Minor (well, there's the Blaggi Sword, but Arvis, having Major Fala, can't really disprove having Minor Loptyr with the sword).

That's about it, I'd think.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, the thing is, sometimes, you don't need to back up claims with evidence, if there are people who won't care. And in something like politics, sadly, is such a case. Some people will believe it no matter what, and some may not, but if they want something out of Arvis, they'd pretend to believe to put pressure on him. This is likely what Arvis fears, regardless if the Cult has any actual evidence. Once word spread, even if nothing is proven, people will still talk about it, debate, mumur, plot, etc.

 

 

So, basically, he didn't want everything to go McCarthy when it came to political dealings.

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1 minute ago, RedRob said:

 

So, basically, he didn't want everything to go McCarthy when it came to political dealings.

Quite likely, and there's also the fact Arvis aknowledges he has Loptyr blood (how else could he know if Cygun herself likely never spoke of it (or did she and told Victor?) before leaving back to Verdane). So the Cult does have evidence and presented it to Arvis. Alternatively, Arvis simply belives they can. It's not like the Cult hasn't shown themselves to be crafty. They conspired with Reptor and Lombard to kill Mannana, Arvis himself conspired with them for Arvis to take the throne, etc.

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5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I've also discussed this in length privately. Message me if you're interested. @omegaxis1 has a good theory in there.  

I did? I thought I agreed that it was rather stupid that they never made a real mention on how he could be blackmailed? 

EDIT: Oh wait, are you referring to my theory that the Loptyr cult may have created an object that could react to Loptyr blood?

Edited by omegaxis1

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I did? I thought I agreed that it was rather stupid that they never made a real mention on how he could be blackmailed? 

EDIT: Oh wait, are you referring to my theory that the Loptyr cult may have created an object that could react to Loptyr blood?

Yeah, you did. I'll show you. 

Both are really good.

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1 minute ago, Køkø said:

Yeah, you did. I'll show you. 

Both are really good.

That was so long ago that I forgot how it went. I recall making a reddit thread in regards to how minor blood could even be defined.

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2 hours ago, RedRob said:

From what I understand, Arvis was blackmailed by the Loptyr cult into helping them be threatening to reveal he was a member of their bloodline. Except...

They're the evil cult. Who's going to believe any accusations from them, especially against a noble who 's the leader of the capital's knights?

Did I misunderstand something, or miss some important detail?

I'm pretty sure the Loptyr Cult was planning using Arvis (since Arvis did have minor blood of Loptyr) to give birth from an another woman that have Loptyr Blood (which it turned out to be Deirdre) to raise a new born child to have the Full Loptyr Blood which Julius is now in possession of the Loptyr Tome during at Generation 2 arc. I don't think they mentioned Arvis is in Blackmail by one of the Loptyr Cult. I'm pretty sure they were using him for ritual purpose to make Loptyr rise again.

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Had information about Arvis' Loptyr blood came out in public, he would've been burned at the stake. This is implied in chapter 2 when you visit villages and they talk about the hunts for people suspected of Loptyr blood and how they are burned at the stake. 

I never thought Arvis was blackmailed, but he was in a risky position on his own due to having Loptyr blood. Arvis says so in his conversation with Manfroy in chapter 5, that he wants to create a world free of prejudice, including towards people of Loptyrian blood. This would make complete sense given that he would've burned at the stake himself. They both used each other to their own advantage. It's easy to sympathize for Arvis, but do not forget that he wanted power and it's what makes him such a well written villain. In the end, he wanted the throne and to become emperor just as badly as Reptor and Langobalt wanted control. 

 

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On 3/17/2018 at 5:15 AM, GoldPaladin said:

 

Had information about Arvis' Loptyr blood came out in public, he would've been burned at the stake. This is implied in chapter 2 when you visit villages and they talk about the hunts for people suspected of Loptyr blood and how they are burned at the stake. 

I never thought Arvis was blackmailed, but he was in a risky position on his own due to having Loptyr blood. Arvis says so in his conversation with Manfroy in chapter 5, that he wants to create a world free of prejudice, including towards people of Loptyrian blood. This would make complete sense given that he would've burned at the stake himself. They both used each other to their own advantage. It's easy to sympathize for Arvis, but do not forget that he wanted power and it's what makes him such a well written villain. In the end, he wanted the throne and to become emperor just as badly as Reptor and Langobalt wanted control. 

 

Got to it before me. Alvis was never blackmailed. He actively worked with the lopt cult on his own voliation because he thought he could use them to achieve his own goals (never suspecting the missing princess happened to be his half sister and together they could create the anti christ).

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Got to it before me. Alvis was never blackmailed. He actively worked with the lopt cult on his own voliation because he thought he could use them to achieve his own goals (never suspecting the missing princess happened to be his half sister and together they could create the anti christ).

Well, based on the dialogue, it does feel like Manfroy had some form of blackmail over him:

Quote

Manfroy:
“Is that so? This is getting interesting. Only one descendant remains of our old foe Narga, and he will die before long. Then all that’s left is the revival of our Dark Lord. Then the world will be ours!”

Dark mage:
“Has Alvis consented to your proposal?”

Manfroy:
Of course he did. He’s got Loputousu’s blood flowing in his veins. And if that ever got out, they would burn him at the stake for being of Loptian descent. I just wonder if someone as arrogant as Alvis can keep quiet.”

The bigger question we should be asking isn't about how Manfroy blackmailed Arvis per se. 

But rather how did Arvis even know about his lineage with the Loptyr through Maera. By all means, why would Arvis have to believe the words of a crazed lunatic from a near extinct cult? What evidence does Manfroy have to even make Arvis believe that he is of Loptyr's blood? Because for all intents and purposes, Minor Blood does not in any way reveal itself as a brand on you. Only Major Blood does. And Arvis does have Brand, being that of Crusader Fjala.

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, based on the dialogue, it does feel like Manfroy had some form of blackmail over him:

The bigger question we should be asking isn't about how Manfroy blackmailed Arvis per se. 

But rather how did Arvis even know about his lineage with the Loptyr through Maera. By all means, why would Arvis have to believe the words of a crazed lunatic from a near extinct cult? What evidence does Manfroy have to even make Arvis believe that he is of Loptyr's blood? Because for all intents and purposes, Minor Blood does not in any way reveal itself as a brand on you. Only Major Blood does. And Arvis does have Brand, being that of Crusader Fjala.

Note the last part of Manfroy's comment, can anyone as arrogant as Alvis keep quiet. It's clear from Manfroy and Alvis' actual dialogue that Alvis isn't afraid of the lopt sect.

Quote

Alvis:
“Manfroy? How many times have I told you not to show yourself around here!? All members of your Lopt Sect must stay completely hidden until I’ve taken power!”

Manfroy:
“Yes. You’re too weak to admit our presence, and you let that greedy Leptor and Langobalt run all over you!The original plan was to dispose of those two once they proved useless and work through their sons instead!”

Alvis:
“Hmph… Manfroy, I’ll say this once and only once, so listen good. I haven’t the slightest intention of rebuilding your Lopt Empire. I have no problem with your Lopt Sect existing, but I’m not leaving the world in the hands of the Dark Lord. You follow!? I don’t care if I have the Lopt Clan’s blood in me. I have Saint Maira’s blood and he fought for the good of the people. The Fire God Fala is also one of my ancestors. I will use my power to create a world which is free of prejudice. One where all peoples can live without fear of repression! Of course, Sigurd knows way too much. Consider him a sacrifice to the greater good.”

Manfroy:
“Hohoho… I assume that greater good includes Diadora as well! Lord Alvis, you’re afraid, aren’t you. Afraid her memories may be restored!”

Alvis:
“Enough, Manfroy! We-are-in-love. And no one’s going to get in our way!”

He's angry at Manfroy, not afraid of him. He outright says he doesn't care that he has lopt blood. He likely thinks the same thing as the OP, that the lopt clans claims to the truth would be met with quite a bit of disbelief. Of course it's also a key point that Alvis clearly did underestimate the power of the clan given how things turned out. Given how much sway they have over the nation, I don't find it unlikely that they could make good on their threat. But Alvis' dialogue makes it clear that he's working with them to meet his own goals, not because they're threatening him.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Note the last part of Manfroy's comment, can anyone as arrogant as Alvis keep quiet. It's clear from Manfroy and Alvis' actual dialogue that Alvis isn't afraid of the lopt sect.

He's angry at Manfroy, not afraid of him. He outright says he doesn't care that he has lopt blood. He likely thinks the same thing as the OP, that the lopt clans claims to the truth would be met with quite a bit of disbelief. Of course it's also a key point that Alvis clearly did underestimate the power of the clan given how things turned out. Given how much sway they have over the nation, I don't find it unlikely that they could make good on their threat. But Alvis' dialogue makes it clear that he's working with them to meet his own goals, not because they're threatening him.

It could actually work both ways actually. Arvis was using his influences to hide the Lopto Sect. As Manfroy said, if word got out that Arvis had Lopto Blood, he would be burned at the stake. They may not even need proof there as the people are just that terrified of Loptyr. 

However, because of how he grew up, he wasn't going to get pushed around and made it clear that he is doing things for his own reasons. Manfroy revealing to Arvis is potentially the reason why Arvis even desired more power to end prejudice. If Manfroy had revealed himself, but didn't try to provoke or threaten Arvis, he may have carefully spoke his words to tell Arvis about his Loptyr blood that came from Cygun, and also how the people hold extreme prejudice and would harm anyone that has Loptyr blood, including Arvis and his mother, despite how they descend from Maera, who fought for the people. And perhaps Manfroy also laced his words with how Arvis is destined to rule the continent or such. 

Arvis doesn't have to believe him, but this plants a seed of doubt in him, and Arvis could very well see afterwards how prejudiced people are towards those that are believed to be part of the Loptyr Empire. The more he sees things, the more he begins to slowly believe in the story, and also feel like the continent needed to change. It's here that Arvis could have grown in ambition for more power, to truly change the continent as one of paradise. Manfroy reveals himself afterwards and they decide to work together. But with Arvis' belief in his lineage, now there's also the small trace of fear in his own persecution. 

However, Arvis just never realized that Manfroy saw much farther than Arvis did in those ambitions. 

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10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Got to it before me. Alvis was never blackmailed. He actively worked with the lopt cult on his own voliation because he thought he could use them to achieve his own goals (never suspecting the missing princess happened to be his half sister and together they could create the anti christ).

 

That's right. Lewyn also explains to Seliph in either chapter 6 or 7 that for the first few years under the empire, things really weren't that bad under the empire's control at first. Something changed once the cult became more powerful and Julius had become FE antichrist.

 

Arvis had good intentions and in all his dialogue with Manfrony in chapter 5, he makes all that clear. It would make sense for someone who had to fear being burned at the stake for having Loptyr blood in them, that he would want to end prejudices even to this evil cult. Arvis tells Manfroy that he has no intentions of reviving the dark god. They both used each other to gain power. Arvis personally felt the pain that the Loptyr people experienced through persecution since he had to hide his Loptyr blood from the public.

 

I don't think he was blackmailed cause either way, had it been revealed, he would've been burned at the stake and he knew this. I've always felt that Manfroy used him like a puppet without blackmail and both of them were using each other for their own gain. It's easy to sympathize for Arvis cause he's such a well written villain, but he still wanted to be emperor above all else. Between him, Reptor and Langobalt, Arvis simply was the smartest of the three and knew what he was doing with his plans. Having Manfroy in his pocket was a key advantage. Chapter 5 is truly a beauty of the writing in this game. Arvis played the key figures of Grannvale against each other so perfectly, allowing them to kill each other. He even manages to fool Sigurd into thinking everything will be OK when Velthomer turns their forces against Reptor. 

 

I think a good question is weather or not Arvis was aware of Dierdre being his half sister or not. I suspect he wasn't aware at all and truly was in love with her. Marrying her was key to getting the throne since she was a descendant to Kurth. If there is ever a remake of this game, I am curious if they'll add something in there with a big reveal of Arvis finding out the truth.

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1 hour ago, GoldPaladin said:

 

That's right. Lewyn also explains to Seliph in either chapter 6 or 7 that for the first few years under the empire, things really weren't that bad under the empire's control at first. Something changed once the cult became more powerful and Julius had become FE antichrist.

 

Arvis had good intentions and in all his dialogue with Manfrony in chapter 5, he makes all that clear. It would make sense for someone who had to fear being burned at the stake for having Loptyr blood in them, that he would want to end prejudices even to this evil cult. Arvis tells Manfroy that he has no intentions of reviving the dark god. They both used each other to gain power. Arvis personally felt the pain that the Loptyr people experienced through persecution since he had to hide his Loptyr blood from the public.

 

I don't think he was blackmailed cause either way, had it been revealed, he would've been burned at the stake and he knew this. I've always felt that Manfroy used him like a puppet without blackmail and both of them were using each other for their own gain. It's easy to sympathize for Arvis cause he's such a well written villain, but he still wanted to be emperor above all else. Between him, Reptor and Langobalt, Arvis simply was the smartest of the three and knew what he was doing with his plans. Having Manfroy in his pocket was a key advantage. Chapter 5 is truly a beauty of the writing in this game. Arvis played the key figures of Grannvale against each other so perfectly, allowing them to kill each other. He even manages to fool Sigurd into thinking everything will be OK when Velthomer turns their forces against Reptor. 

 

I think a good question is weather or not Arvis was aware of Dierdre being his half sister or not. I suspect he wasn't aware at all and truly was in love with her. Marrying her was key to getting the throne since she was a descendant to Kurth. If there is ever a remake of this game, I am curious if they'll add something in there with a big reveal of Arvis finding out the truth.

Kaga confirms in an interview that he didn't know when he married her, but did discover her heritage between the generations.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Kaga confirms in an interview that he didn't know when he married her, but did discover her heritage between the generations.

It really sucks how he never pieced together that Deirdre being his half sister through Cygun also meant she had Loptyr Blood. 

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I'd say, I find that a little weird. If I remember correctly, there's dialogue stating the Kurth-Cygun-Victor love triangle wasn't that big of a secret, so it wouldn't be hard to deduce things once Dierdre became known to Grannvale. As it is, I would think it took until Julius was given the Loptyr tome that Arvis realized everything.

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, I find that a little weird. If I remember correctly, there's dialogue stating the Kurth-Cygun-Victor love triangle wasn't that big of a secret, so it wouldn't be hard to deduce things once Dierdre became known to Grannvale. As it is, I would think it took until Julius was given the Loptyr tome that Arvis realized everything.

When Julius was 7-8 probably, since he seems to be 14-15 in Genealogy, and he attacked Deirdre and Julia 7 years ago. 

As for the love triangle with Cygun, it actually was a secret, that only a select few in the royal court knows. It isn't actually known if Kurth's affair with Cygun was told to Kurth's father Azmur. And plus, Arvis and Deirdre were I believe engaged even before it was revealed that Deirdre was Azmur's granddaughter with Naga's blood.

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

When Julius was 7-8 probably, since he seems to be 14-15 in Genealogy, and he attacked Deirdre and Julia 7 years ago. 

As for the love triangle with Cygun, it actually was a secret, that only a select few in the royal court knows. It isn't actually known if Kurth's affair with Cygun was told to Kurth's father Azmur. And plus, Arvis and Deirdre were I believe engaged even before it was revealed that Deirdre was Azmur's granddaughter with Naga's blood.

Likely not, since it was stated Kurth was being pressured to find a bride. Well, perhaps not Arvis, but then there would be people who could piece things together. So something has to have happened if no mention of the sort resurfaced.

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Likely not, since it was stated Kurth was being pressured to find a bride. Well, perhaps not Arvis, but then there would be people who could piece things together. So something has to have happened if no mention of the sort resurfaced.

It isn't known if incest is outlawed or frowned upon. In the game, while Lachesis is in love with her brother Eldigan, there wasn't enough evidence to suggest that Eldigan felt the same way, though the Oosawa manga definitely showed that one. 

If it was in any way frowned upon and word got out, it could cause problems. And in that case, anyone that realized they were siblings would have resulted in Manfroy or even Arvis silencing them. Arvis loved Deirdre too much even after finding out the truth himself, and he's already made it known that anyone that crosses him would die, even when he was a child. And Manfroy was not going to have anyone causing any kind of hassle for his master plan.

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Honestly, considering Deirdre had the brand of Naga, and looked just like Cygun, Arvis really should have figured it out sooner.

So to sum up this thread, Arvis worked with the cult willingly. There goes any sympathy I had for him.

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48 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Honestly, considering Deirdre had the brand of Naga, and looked just like Cygun, Arvis really should have figured it out sooner.

So to sum up this thread, Arvis worked with the cult willingly. There goes any sympathy I had for him.

I mean...he is a villain. Did you miss the part where he laughed as he betrayed Sigurd, praised around the guys potentially former lover and then set him on fire?

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