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omegaxis1

Does Valentia seem like a continent to you?

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So hear me out. When you played Echoes, and possibly also Gaiden, at any point, did any of you guys think like you were exploring a big open world once?

When I played through other games that involved me roaming around the continent, I sort of felt like I was in the adventure, exploring the great open world, and seeing so many new things. Even Awakening offered some aspects, but there it was two continents explored. 

Valentia, and by extension Valm, really didn't feel that grand to me. It felt so small. Like it was a very small world, and it was only the act of dungeon crawling that ever gave it a big more bulk to it. 

What about you guys, did any of you guys think that you were at all exploring a continent when playing Gaiden/Echoes when compared to other Fire Emblem games? 

Edited by omegaxis1

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I never really had that problem.

The continent itself is pretty varied with plains in the south of Zofia, woods in the west and mountains and desserts in the west. Then when you go to Rigel up north its all pine woods, swamps and snow. The journeys tend to take pretty long too. Celica leaves her little island and only two arcs later does she arrive at her destination and Alm spends two thirds of the game before he reaches the Rigelian border. 

Valm definitely felt small because we only had a tiny arc without any worldbuilding but I feel Valentia was big enough.

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In FE2, absolutely. The limitations of the console made immersion fairly easy in that game and it was more believable to think things were spaced like that. I see what you mean in FE15 though.

The thing though is I think this is supposed to be a young continent. No cities absolutely everywhere, only two countries, etc. That and it's not like your parties are traveling across long patches of nothing in between. It's just stuff you don't see.

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I'm convinced that originally it wasn't a continent.

It definitely is as of Awakening, given it's the same size as Archanea, but I do kind of prefer the idea that it's smaller than the other continents. With Duma and Mila being more similar to Mannu than Naga.

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3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Valm definitely felt small because we only had a tiny arc without any worldbuilding but I feel Valentia was big enough.

Well that was to be given since Awakening is reference game. 

2 minutes ago, Darros said:

The thing though is I think this is supposed to be a young continent. No cities absolutely everywhere, only two countries, etc. That and it's not like your parties are traveling across long patches of nothing in between. It's just stuff you don't see.

But it feels like everyone travels through Valentia rather quickly. Like you get from the edge of Zofia and then already to Zofia Castle so quickly. Like not that much time passed by. It was only the dungeon crawling that made it feel longer.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm convinced that originally it wasn't a continent.

It definitely is as of Awakening, given it's the same size as Archanea, but I do kind of prefer the idea that it's smaller than the other continents. With Duma and Mila being more similar to Mannu than Naga.

I JUST read that thread now from @Køkø

Also, one thing you didn't mention is how Camus, who was defeated in Grust that is southwest of Archanea, ended up in Rigel, which is the northern part of Valentia. If it was a remote island, makes sense. But a continent right next to Awakening, no longer possible.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

But it feels like everyone travels through Valentia rather quickly. Like you get from the edge of Zofia and then already to Zofia Castle so quickly. Like not that much time passed by. It was only the dungeon crawling that made it feel longer.

Well that's more to do with the time scale of the game. And continents don't have to be big by definition. Europe and Australia are a lot smaller than Asia and North America.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

But it feels like everyone travels through Valentia rather quickly. Like you get from the edge of Zofia and then already to Zofia Castle so quickly. Like not that much time passed by. It was only the dungeon crawling that made it feel longer.

The edge isn't that far from the capitol though. Valentia and Valm are kinda shaped like a dragon. Alm's village is located at the tip of its ''tail'' and the capitol is situated at about the spot where the ''tail'' ends. 

 

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, one thing you didn't mention is how Camus, who was defeated in Grust that is southwest of Archanea, ended up in Rigel, which is the northern part of Valentia. If it was a remote island, makes sense. But a continent right next to Awakening, no longer possible.

My headcanon about that affair is that Gotoh senses Camus role wasn't over yet and warped him far away to ensure he wouldn't die that day. I mean...its more likely then a wounded Camus swimming the entire way or the loyalty obsessed knight choosing to board a ship and leave his country behind. 

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well that was to be given since Awakening is reference game. 

But it feels like everyone travels through Valentia rather quickly. Like you get from the edge of Zofia and then already to Zofia Castle so quickly. Like not that much time passed by. It was only the dungeon crawling that made it feel longer.

I JUST read that thread now from @Køkø

Also, one thing you didn't mention is how Camus, who was defeated in Grust that is southwest of Archanea, ended up in Rigel, which is the northern part of Valentia. If it was a remote island, makes sense. But a continent right next to Awakening, no longer possible.

Even for a small island, Camus' survival is completely ridiculous. He ended up on the north western part of Valentia, which is west of Archanea. The only explanation is that he was floating on the ocean for weeks and is just too bad ass to reuire sustanance. He also must have been sleeping with Rudolf or something to become a general in such an immensely short time. I know they have a strength is everything mentality, but he's been hanging around for like a year and a half. One of the reasons I kind of wish Gaiden was beyond an outrealm gate or something.

4 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The edge isn't that far from the capitol though. Valentia and Valm are kinda shaped like a dragon. Alm's village is located at the tip of its ''tail'' and the capitol is situated at about the spot where the ''tail'' ends. 

 

My headcanon about that affair is that Gotoh senses Camus role wasn't over yet and warped him far away to ensure he wouldn't die that day. I mean...its more likely then a wounded Camus swimming the entire way or the loyalty obsessed knight choosing to board a ship and leave his country behind. 

Nice headcanon. Kind of wish they included it in the games. Would have made for a nice after credits scene in Shadow Dragon or a memory prism in Shadows of Valentia.

Edited by Jotari

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10 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

The continent itself is pretty varied with plains in the south of Zofia, woods in the west and mountains and desserts in the west. Then when you go to Rigel up north its all pine woods, swamps and snow. The journeys tend to take pretty long too. Celica leaves her little island and only two arcs later does she arrive at her destination and Alm spends two thirds of the game before he reaches the Rigelian border. 

Remember that actual gods existed in Gaiden. Mila is stated to have the ability to bless the lands, is it not possible that the difference in landscape is due to this? That would explain why Sofia is green and Rigel is swampy. Also there was no snow in the original Rigel. Unless it's just the graphics that are confusing me. Not sure how to explain the desert, and the only reason the journey felt long was because of tedious gameplay, not scale. 

6 minutes ago, Darros said:

Well that's more to do with the time scale of the game. And continents don't have to be big by definition. Europe and Australia are a lot smaller than Asia and North America.

Valentia was clearly smaller than Europe or Australia. 

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Even for a small island, Camus' survival is completely ridiculous. He ended up on the north western part of Valentia, which is west of Archanea. The only explanation is that he was floating on the ocean for weeks and is just too bad ass to reuire sustanance.

Do we actually know if Camus floated to Valentia?

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37 minutes ago, Darros said:

Well that's more to do with the time scale of the game. And continents don't have to be big by definition. Europe and Australia are a lot smaller than Asia and North America.

True, but compared to how Archanea felt, which did feel much larger to me, Valentia felt way too small in comparison, despite how we see they are now the same size.

35 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The edge isn't that far from the capitol though. Valentia and Valm are kinda shaped like a dragon. Alm's village is located at the tip of its ''tail'' and the capitol is situated at about the spot where the ''tail'' ends. 

Every case of going from one point to another feels rather quick. Especially when you consider how it doesn't even feel like a year took place in the war with Valentia, while the War of Shadows has been going on for a while until Marth finally arrived. 

35 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

My headcanon about that affair is that Gotoh senses Camus role wasn't over yet and warped him far away to ensure he wouldn't die that day. I mean...its more likely then a wounded Camus swimming the entire way or the loyalty obsessed knight choosing to board a ship and leave his country behind. 

Both cases is... rather unlikely, honestly. But the former at least makes just a tad slightly more sense. Though why wouldn't Gotoh inform anyone that Camus was alive? 

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Even for a small island, Camus' survival is completely ridiculous. He ended up on the north western part of Valentia, which is west of Archanea. The only explanation is that he was floating on the ocean for weeks and is just too bad ass to reuire sustanance. He also must have been sleeping with Rudolf or something to become a general in such an immensely short time. I know they have a strength is everything mentality, but he's been hanging around for like a year and a half. One of the reasons I kind of wish Gaiden was beyond an outrealm gate or something.

The power equal everything is very much the reason. I even wrote an entire thread on reddit on how strong Camus is:

Spoiler

 

Plus, Rudolf wanted to also make use of Camus, since he could get Camus to fight for Alm, and Camus' strength would prove invaluable to Alm. Though it's only by another force of luck that Camus even got to survive, but he was destined to survive since he went to Archanea in the War of Heroes.
26 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Do we actually know if Camus floated to Valentia?

@Etrurian emperor had a small possible idea, in that Gotoh warped Camus to a safer location to get treated.

Edited by omegaxis1

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3 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Remember that actual gods existed in Gaiden. Mila is stated to have the ability to bless the lands, is it not possible that the difference in landscape is due to this? That would explain why Sofia is green and Rigel is swampy. Also there was no snow in the original Rigel. Unless it's just the graphics that are confusing me. Not sure how to explain the desert, and the only reason the journey felt long was because of tedious gameplay, not scale. 

Valentia was clearly smaller than Europe or Australia. 

Do we actually know if Camus floated to Valentia?

We no he washed up on Valentia. So he either floated the entire way after being defeated by Marth, or he hopped on a ship and was in a ship wreck. The former is logistically ridiculous, while the latter is pretty out of character.

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14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

@Etrurian emperor had a small possible idea, in that Gotoh warped Camus to a safer location to get treated.

Not sure why he would do that though. 

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We no he washed up on Valentia. So he either floated the entire way after being defeated by Marth, or he hopped on a ship and was in a ship wreck. The former is logistically ridiculous, while the latter is pretty out of character.

We never actually get to see the original depiction of Archanea and Valentia together. We didn't see them together at all until "The Complete", which not only erroneously depicts Valentia to the east, but scaled up to match Archanea's size. If Valentia was a small island really close to Archarnea, floating the entire way isn't that unbelievable. It's likely not the case, as Camus was nowhere near water when he lost. The ship thing makes sense. Do we know when Camus lost his memories? Could have been after he was knocked unconscious in the battle, so his character wouldn't be a factor anymore. Doesn't explain why he'd get on a ship though, but his brain did get screwed up.

Edited by Køkø

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@Jotari I know you said that Duma and Mila were possibly also intended to be dragons, but I really don't think so. For one thing, it's heavily implied that Duma created Falchion in Valentia, which was used to seal Mila. Mila being sealed in there also allowed Falchion to be used against Duma, and defeat him. 

Though he just barely resembles a dragon, believe me, it's barely there, I think it really was intended originally that they were gods. Kaga's works were intended there to be where dragons, gods, and humans all existed together in the same world. 

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

Not sure why he would do that though. 

Cosmic Force of destiny? 

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

We never actually get to see the original depiction of Archanea and Valentia together. We didn't see them together at all until "The Complete", which not only erroneously depicts to the east, but scaled up to match Archanea's size. If Valentia was a small island really close to Archarnea, floating the entire way isn't that unbelievable. It's likely not the case, as Camus was nowhere near water when he lost. The ship thing makes sense. Do we know when Camus lost his memories? Could have been after he was knocked unconscious in the battle, so his character wouldn't be a factor anymore. Doesn't explain why he'd get on a ship though, but his brain did get screwed up.

Actually, I disagree with you there. 

700?cb=20160527071749

Camus was southwest here in Grunia, or Grust. It's very much near water. 

Now looking at the actual maps:

latest?cb=20120909044302

latest?cb=20130618214541

This is the map where Camus is fought. Camus is fought at the top most dot in the second map. As we can see, the map has many areas of water. Camus is at the top dot area, but is overall still relatively close to the water. He actually could have fallen into the water after his defeat. 

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30 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

snip

You should put that in a spoiler, it's pretty long (critique in general, try to make it a bit more succinct if you can). I never knew Medeus appears in the BS Chapter, guess I never killd Bulzark. Unfortunately that can't be the canon event, because it's a bit of a plot hole. The ending of Shadow Dragon expressly says Medeus isn't properly revived and can't leave his castle.

Edited by Jotari

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

You should put that in a spoiler, it's pretty long (critique in general, try to make it a bit more succinct if you can). I never knew Medeus appears in the BS Chapter, guess I never killd Bulzark. Unfortunately that can't be the canon event, because it's a bit of a plot hole. The ending of Shadow Dragon expressly says Medeus isn't properly revived and can't leave his castle.

Didn't know you didn't know. Edited it. 

Also, he cannot use his full powers outside the castle, but nothing says he absolutely cannot leave it. He was just forced to cause Camus is just an overall badass. 

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Cosmic Force of destiny?

Eh, maybe. 

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Actually, I disagree with you there. 

Let me clarify. I know that there's water near Grust but I was specifically talking about the exact spot he was defeated in. I'd understand if he were on the edge or something but he was in the castle. There are even mountains blocking the closest entry. I just don't see him stumbling all the way over there while Marth's army stands there watching. Unless he got blown the fuck back by Aura or something.

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11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

@Jotari I know you said that Duma and Mila were possibly also intended to be dragons, but I really don't think so. For one thing, it's heavily implied that Duma created Falchion in Valentia, which was used to seal Mila. Mila being sealed in there also allowed Falchion to be used against Duma, and defeat him. 

Though he just barely resembles a dragon, believe me, it's barely there, I think it really was intended originally that they were gods. Kaga's works were intended there to be where dragons, gods, and humans all existed together in the same world. 

Cosmic Force of destiny? 

Actually, I disagree with you there. 

700?cb=20160527071749

Camus was southwest here in Grunia, or Grust. It's very much near water. 

Now looking at the actual maps:

latest?cb=20120909044302

latest?cb=20130618214541

This is the map where Camus is fought. Camus is fought at the top most dot in the second map. As we can see, the map has many areas of water. Camus is at the top dot area, but is overall still relatively close to the water. He actually could have fallen into the water after his defeat. 

Don't want to derail and get into a whole other thing, but nothing in Gaiden suggests Doma created Falchion. The sword is only mentioned twice in the entire game, and once by name. All they say is that Duma gave it to Rudolf and it sealed Mila (going by the translated script at least). I wish Duma actually made the sword, as I speculated here prerelease

but so far as the original game implies, Doma just has it for no explained reason.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Didn't know you didn't know. Edited it. 

Also, he cannot use his full powers outside the castle, but nothing says he absolutely cannot leave it. He was just forced to cause Camus is just an overall badass. 

But if he can't use his full power, then leaving the castle to personally intervene with Camus provides no actual benefit aside from intimidation factor. It anything, it's extremly reckless since if Camus is as strong as Anri, he stands a decent chance of killing Medeus in his weakened state.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Don't want to derail and get into a whole other thing, but nothing in Gaiden suggests Doma created Falchion. The sword is only mentioned twice in the entire game, and once by name.

True, but no one else was mentioned. Not many conclusions to come to. It had nothing to do with dragons though, no dragon-slaying effect.

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6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Eh, maybe. 

Given Gotoh's wisdom and magic power, he may have some understanding of the case. I mean, he made Anri travel to the Ice Dragon Shrine to get Falchion. Doubtful that a peasant like Anri would even know about Falchion unless Gotoh told him about it. And unless he could sense that there was a destiny there with someone, he may choose to intervene. But yeah, still seems a bit farfetched, I do not deny. 

6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Let me clarify. I know that there's water near Grust but I was specifically talking about the exact spot he was defeated in. I'd understand if he were on the edge or something but he was in the castle. There are even mountains blocking the closest entry. I just don't see him stumbling all the way over there while Marth's army stands there watching. Unless he got blown the fuck back by Aura or something.

Ah. Well, we never know if he lost at that exact spot. There are movements around and all. Plus, we never get a good look at the more northern part of the map, and based on the way they water was there, it is possible there is some water up north and Camus could fall there. 

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Don't want to derail and get into a whole other thing, but nothing in Gaiden suggests Doma created Falchion. The sword is only mentioned twice in the entire game, and once by name. All they say is that Duma gave it to Rudolf and it sealed Mila (going by the translated script at least). I wish Duma actually made the sword, as I speculated here prerelease

but so far as the original game implies, Doma just has it for no explained reason.

True. However, since there was no adequately explored case of him being a dragon until Echoes, and they have been regarded the entire time as gods, I think it was originally safe to say that they were genuine gods. I believe the reason that it was called Falchion again is because Kaga wanted the ultimate weapon of the games he made to be the Falchion. But he deviated from that path by Genealogy. 

2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

True, but no one else was mentioned. Not many conclusions to come to. It had nothing to do with dragons though, no dragon-slaying effect.

Not like any dragons actually came up aside from necrodragons. 

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But if he can't use his full power, then leaving the castle to personally intervene with Camus provides no actual benefit aside from intimidation factor. It anything, it's extremly reckless since if Camus is as strong as Anri, he stands a decent chance of killing Medeus in his weakened state.

Camus was at his limit. He lost Gradivus, and his sword was broken. He was done. Medeus felt no more threat coming from him. But him coming personally was his way of acknowledging Camus' strength, a show of respect. But at the same time, he wanted to also punish Camus personally because of the annoyance that he has caused. Bulzark never appears in the Archanea series, so it's actually more likely canonical that Camus had defeated Bulzark in the end. Though this can be a discussion in the private messages if you want.

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Ah. Well, we never know if he lost at that exact spot. There are movements around and all. Plus, we never get a good look at the more northern part of the map, and based on the way they water was there, it is possible there is some water up north and Camus could fall there. 

He doesn't move though. And you have to corner him to fight him. I could totally see Marth holding back on him and getting him medical care afterwards. He then wondered off after waking up. 

Just a theory. We'll probably never know. 

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Not like any dragons actually came up aside from necrodragons. 

And the "monster" effect applies to them too. They are zombies after all. Doma isn't, and I'm pretty sure Falchion isn't effective on him.

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Given Gotoh's wisdom and magic power, he may have some understanding of the case. I mean, he made Anri travel to the Ice Dragon Shrine to get Falchion. Doubtful that a peasant like Anri would even know about Falchion unless Gotoh told him about it. And unless he could sense that there was a destiny there with someone, he may choose to intervene. But yeah, still seems a bit farfetched, I do not deny. 

Ah. Well, we never know if he lost at that exact spot. There are movements around and all. Plus, we never get a good look at the more northern part of the map, and based on the way they water was there, it is possible there is some water up north and Camus could fall there. 

True. However, since there was no adequately explored case of him being a dragon until Echoes, and they have been regarded the entire time as gods, I think it was originally safe to say that they were genuine gods. I believe the reason that it was called Falchion again is because Kaga wanted the ultimate weapon of the games he made to be the Falchion. But he deviated from that path by Genealogy. 

Not like any dragons actually came up aside from necrodragons. 

Camus was at his limit. He lost Gradivus, and his sword was broken. He was done. Medeus felt no more threat coming from him. But him coming personally was his way of acknowledging Camus' strength, a show of respect. But at the same time, he wanted to also punish Camus personally because of the annoyance that he has caused. Bulzark never appears in the Archanea series, so it's actually more likely canonical that Camus had defeated Bulzark in the end. Though this can be a discussion in the private messages if you want.

Unless Gotoh was sending a lot more presents down Anri's Way and Anti himself was just the one that happened to be successful...

There are living dragons in Gaiden. The White Dragons guarding Falchion are alive.

Bulzark not reappearing isn't much evidence. Originally none of the characters debuting in Archanea Saga reappeared. It might be what happened, but it just as well might not. Either way it's still foolishly risky for Medeus to leave his castle. I believe the scene is probably based on the artwork where Camus is brought before Medeus for his treason. I don't think there's much more to say on the issue other than that. It's possible, but I also believe there cause for reasonable doubt.

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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

There are living dragons in Gaiden. The White Dragons guarding Falchion are alive.

Are they? They share the same decayed model with the other necrodragons.

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11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

He doesn't move though. And you have to corner him to fight him. I could totally see Marth holding back on him and getting him medical care afterwards. He then wondered off after waking up. 

Just a theory. We'll probably never know. 

I do not know about FE1 or Book 1 of FE3, but in FE11, he does actually move. 

Quote

Tatiana: Eek! Who’s there?! Hmm… He appears badly wounded. Is he dead?

Zeke: Rngh…

Tatiana: *gasp* He’s alive! Are you all right? Stay with me!

Zeke: Nyna…

To be honest, this feels like the wounds and injuries he has here are from the battle with Marth, and him calling for Nyna here sort of reflects his defeat quote in Shadow Dragon where he calls her name.

And even if Marth did not want to fight him, Camus really isn't someone you actually can afford to go easy on, since otherwise he will kill you, and he made it clear that he was going to fight as a Knight of Grust. Marth would have to have given it his all and beyond to be able to best someone like Camus. 

11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

And the "monster" effect applies to them too. They are zombies after all. Doma isn't, and I'm pretty sure Falchion isn't effective on him.

Well, I mean. Falchion is effective on Duma in how it can deal damage to Duma even after his HP drops to 52, so it does count. 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Unless Gotoh was sending a lot more presents down Anri's Way and Anti himself was just the one that happened to be successful...

That would definitely be going against what Naga told him to. But sending him through there was no doubt a test to see Anri's own worth as a person. No way was Gotoh going to hand the most powerful sword in the continent to someone that was unworthy. 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There are living dragons in Gaiden. The White Dragons guarding Falchion are alive.

Pretty sure those are necrodragons that are colored white. Even Echoes labels them as Terrors. Great Terrors, sure. But Terrors nonetheless. They aren't alive. Plus, Echoes makes the difference between living dragons and necrodragons abundantly clear, with living dragons using breath attacks that ignores defense, which all necrodragons lack.

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Bulzark not reappearing isn't much evidence. Originally none of the characters debuting in Archanea Saga reappeared. It might be what happened, but it just as well might not. Either way it's still foolishly risky for Medeus to leave his castle. I believe the scene is probably based on the artwork where Camus is brought before Medeus for his treason. I don't think there's much more to say on the issue other than that. It's possible, but I also believe there cause for reasonable doubt.

In other words, both scenarios are at that point a possibility. I'll choose to take the best part from that as justification on Camus' strength. Its the real deal.

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I do not know about FE1 or Book 1 of FE3, but in FE11, he does actually move. 

I didn't know that. He doesn't in the original. 

 

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1 minute ago, Køkø said:

I didn't know that. He doesn't in the original. 

Speaking of which, I hear in FE1, he was one of the hardest bosses in the game. 

Perhaps the remake changed it so he does move to give more justification that he can move so he could fall into the waters.

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