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CyberController

What unit is the worst of their class?

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Like, units that really don't have the stats to fit in their class.

For me, it's Magic Man Ronan. He's got much better magic then strength growths, despite being an archer.

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1 hour ago, CyberController said:

Like, units that really don't have the stats to fit in their class.

For me, it's Magic Man Ronan. He's got much better magic then strength growths, despite being an archer.

Ronan's stats don't fit his class, but he's still a better Archer than Leonardo *coughcough*.

Speaking of Dawn Brigade units, Fiona might be the worst Cavalier in the franchise. Statistically alright, but a horribly, horribly underleveled mounted unit with bad bases, tossed into the ass-end of a hard chunk of game that pretty much punishes mounts. Fiona never has a chance to be even alright unless you baby the fuck out of her.

Sophia is the worst Dark Mage in the series pretty handily. It's astounding that holding Dark tomes doesn't kill her, given her awful constitution, 0 durability and the weight of Dark Magic.

Wyvern Riders might be one of the classes that have no real bad units on paper, but Altenna might be the worst Wyvern Rider in the series. Altenna, despite being beefy as hell and having a Holy Weapon, is tossed at you during a chunk of game that's really not kind to her. She gets shredded by magic, and nothing she has can help, she barely has more utility than Hannibal, a character so bad that he's borderline a meme.

Shannam is Samuel to the extreme. A poor-man's knockoff of a famous Swordsman. But while Samuel's not terrible and has potential to be good, Shannam is pretty much impossible to make good, even with Scrolls. His main utility is buying shit for your army... which, now that I think about, is more than I can say about Marisa.

Edited by Slumber

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I think Ronan's extra movement makes him a little better than Tanya. Not that you should really be using either of them anyway.

Fighters have a pretty rough time across the board, I think I'd say the non-promoting fighters of Archanea have it the worst, Maji and Saji(Bord and Cord?) obviously worse than Barst. Although Johalva is living in the world of horrible axes, so he doesn't have it much better, if at all.

Are the two pre-promoted pegs in the GBA games the worst pegs? Juno will never have decent stats, and there's no reason not to use Shanna. Her weapon levels aren't even good, and that's something almost every pre-promo is supposed to have on their non-promo counterparts. Syrene's a less extreme case. She has actual stats, but if you didn't like Vanessa or Tana, Syrene probably won't make you change your mind. Not to mention that this is the game with Wyvern Knights, she's the only one forced into the inferior Falco Knight.

Mages are tough. Ellrean, or however you spell his name, is god awful, but so is Yubello. Archanea kind of suffers from one unit just invalidating most of the other characters in the class. There's also Tormod, but those games have BEXP, so you could probably make a case for him.

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41 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

No one's said Meg for Knights yet? I mean self-explanatory.

Eh, I'd say Wendy is worse than Meg.  At least Meg can BXP into usability, for Wendy there's not much that can really be done to help her.  

It doesn't help that Wendy's game is mono-seize, which punishes armors more than the DB portions of FE10 which have some defense missions.

Edited by Glaceon Mage

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1 minute ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Eh, I'd say Wendy is worse than Meg.  At least Meg can BXP into usability, for Wendy there's not much that can really be done to help her.  

What bugs me about Meg is even when she's leveled, her growths would have been better suited for a Myrmidon than a knight, and thus the caps prevent her from making use of them. That said, Wendy does have it rough. Then when I think about it there's Barthe.... who is a bit too much of a knight for his own good. Maybe it's not so open and shut.

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1 minute ago, Mad-manakete said:

What bugs me about Meg is even when she's leveled, her growths would have been better suited for a Myrmidon than a knight, and thus the caps prevent her from making use of them. That said, Wendy does have it rough. Then when I think about it there's Barthe.... who is a bit too much of a knight for his own good. Maybe it's not so open and shut.

Barthe's definitely better than Wendy, he's bad yes, but he has much less trouble getting off the ground compared to Wendy.  They join at the same time, with Barthe having much better bases.

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29 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Barthe's definitely better than Wendy, he's bad yes, but he has much less trouble getting off the ground compared to Wendy.  They join at the same time, with Barthe having much better bases.

Guess it depends. I don't mind working a bit harder for someone to get off the ground if there's sufficient reward. Catch is the knights in FE 6 do all suffer from the amount of axe users in the game. So I can't say that I see any as sufficient. On the other hand Meg doesn't really do what her class should do well, comes with the dawn brigade, and probably isn't worth the effort. Only way I can honestly say for sure is doing a run of binding blade with Wendy, then Radiant Dawn with Meg, and see which one frustrates me more. Though even then there's the RNG factor.

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Controversial though as this choice may be, since people like him for... whatever reason, I'd like to nominate Nolan from Radiant Dawn as one of the worst Fighters. Not only does he have the ailment of being stuck with the worst weapon type in the franchise in one of the worst classes in the franchise, he also suffers from severe Strength problems. The ONE selling point his already terrible Fighter class offers and this guy sucks at it.

And then, there's Hinata from Fates. A slow, inaccurate Myrmidon. Let me reiterate: A Myrmidon, whose main selling point is excellent Skill and Speed, is bad in both of these stats. What the actual hell, IntSys? It's a conspiracy to force people into using the Royals, I tell you.

From the same game, we have Rinkah, who is basically a female version of Nolan, except worse, because at least Nolan's bases are... somewhat usable for Part 1 (until the OP Squad joins and renders him and the rest of the Dawn Brigade pretty much superfluous, at any rate), while Rinkah is just... utter garbage, except for a halfway decent Defence stat that makes her one of the only legitimate tanks Birthright has. 

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13 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Controversial though as this choice may be, since people like him for... whatever reason, I'd like to nominate Nolan from Radiant Dawn as one of the worst Fighters. Not only does he have the ailment of being stuck with the worst weapon type in the franchise in one of the worst classes in the franchise, he also suffers from severe Strength problems. The ONE selling point his already terrible Fighter class offers and this guy sucks at it.

You realize Tellius axes are dope? I agree axes usually suck, but Tellius is an exception to this rule afaik. And the reason fighters are usually classified as a bad class is due to axes being bad, not the class itself per se.

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18 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Controversial though as this choice may be, since people like him for... whatever reason, I'd like to nominate Nolan from Radiant Dawn as one of the worst Fighters. Not only does he have the ailment of being stuck with the worst weapon type in the franchise in one of the worst classes in the franchise, he also suffers from severe Strength problems. The ONE selling point his already terrible Fighter class offers and this guy sucks at it.

That's less controversial and more plain wrong. Nolan isn't even the worst fighter/warrior in Radiant Dawn (nor is he a bad unit in any sense of the word), and there's nothing intrinsically bad in having stats that aren't typical for one's class.

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13 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

You realize Tellius axes are dope? I agree axes usually suck, but Tellius is an exception to this rule afaik. And the reason fighters are usually classified as a bad class is due to axes being bad, not the class itself per se.

If Tellius' axes are dope, then the axes in the rest of the franchise must be the lowest tier garbage of lowest tier garbage. With the exception of Haar and Titania, I have not seen a single Axe user in Tellius that showed reliable hit rates (something I consider to be mildly important in a unit). Not Boyd, not Largo and certainly not Nolan.

8 minutes ago, ping said:

That's less controversial and more plain wrong. Nolan isn't even the worst fighter/warrior in Radiant Dawn (nor is he a bad unit in any sense of the word), and there's nothing intrinsically bad in having stats that aren't typical for one's class.

Okay, then I guess I'm wrong for having an opinion based on at least 8 playthroughs worth of personal experience. *shrug*

Edited by DragonFlames

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2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

If Tellius' axes are dope, then the axes in the rest of the franchise must be the lowest tier garbage of lowest tier garbage. With the exception of Haar and Titania, I have not seen a single Axe user in Tellius that showed reliable hit rates (something I consider to be mildly important in a unit). Not Boyd, not Largo and certainly not Nolan.

Okay, then I guess I'm wrong for having an opinion based on at least 8 playthroughs worth of personal experience. *shrug*

How often in those 8 playthroughs have you effectively used the forgery? Base hit of axes ain't bad in Tellius, a couple of forged hit and you're there. Nolan has 11 base skill (Amongst the best amongst your starting units) and his growth rate is 70. How is that bad exactly?

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4 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Controversial though as this choice may be, since people like him for... whatever reason, I'd like to nominate Nolan from Radiant Dawn as one of the worst Fighters. Not only does he have the ailment of being stuck with the worst weapon type in the franchise in one of the worst classes in the franchise, he also suffers from severe Strength problems. The ONE selling point his already terrible Fighter class offers and this guy sucks at it.
 

It's true that Nolan's strengh is bad, but his main (DB) advantage is his bulk. More importantly, you can partly fix it after promotion, since Warrior gets bows as a secondary weapon, and from there you can use the crossbow to deal fixed damage.  Obviously, the Crossbow itself doesn't have the damage to scale to endgame, but it's enough to make him useful for considerably longer than just what his own Strength does. 

I wouldn't compare him to some of the Arachnea axe users.

Also echoing that Telius Axes are fine, even if Nolan isn't one of the people who will be using them. They are kind of hoarded by Haar, Jill, and the Axe Paladins, but still. They have more HT and less weight almost across the board compared to the GBA games, and RD's are even further buffed from POR. I feel like the RD crew can do better without forging than the POR axe users, but even without that, I feel like Axes are easily the best second weapon to take upon promotion for all the POR cavaliers, and with it hand axes completely rickroll that game (to a far greater extent than forged javelins do). In RD you don't get nearly as much money, so the forge isn't quite as broken, but it's still an option.

I consider Nolan a good unit for much the same reason FE11 H5 Jagen is a good unit. He's there to help make the early game consistent, not to hang around and break the game 

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Just now, Reality said:

It's true that Nolan's strengh is bad, but his main (DB) advantage is his bulk. More importantly, you can partly fix it after promotion, since Warrior gets bows as a secondary weapon, and from there you can use the crossbow to deal fixed damage.  Obviously, the Crossbow itself doesn't have the damage to scale to endgame, but it's enough to make him useful for considerably longer than just what his own Strength does. 

I wouldn't compare him to some of the Arachnea axe users.

Also echoing that Telius Axes are fine, even if Nolan isn't one of the people who will be using them. They are kind of hoarded by Haar, Jill, and the Axe Paladins, but still. They have more HT and less weight almost across the board compared to the GBA games, and RD's are even further buffed from POR. I feel like the RD crew can do better without forging than the POR axe users, but even without that, I feel like Axes are easily the best second weapon to take upon promotion for all the POR cavaliers, and with it hand axes completely rickroll that game (to a far greater extent than forged javelins do). In RD you don't get nearly as much money, so the forge isn't quite as broken, but it's still an option.

I consider Nolan a good unit for much the same reason FE11 H5 Jagen is a good unit. He's there to help make the early game consistent, not to hang around and break the game 

That's a statement I can get behind.

6 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

How often in those 8 playthroughs have you effectively used the forgery? Base hit of axes ain't bad in Tellius, a couple of forged hit and you're there. Nolan has 11 base skill (Amongst the best amongst your starting units) and his growth rate is 70. How is that bad exactly?

I haven't used the forgery since I was always short on gold and prioritized Skill scrolls or powerful weapons at the shop.
His Skill base of 11 and growth of 70 sound good... in theory. In practice, his actual growths never reflected the numbers for some weird reason (there are at least two other units in Fates that suffer from the same problem no matter how many times I play) and he usually ends up warming the bench once Jill and especially Volug join the party.

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33 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

From the same game, we have Rinkah, who is basically a female version of Nolan, except worse, because at least Nolan's bases are... somewhat usable for Part 1 (until the OP Squad joins and renders him and the rest of the Dawn Brigade pretty much superfluous, at any rate), while Rinkah is just... utter garbage, except for a halfway decent Defence stat that makes her one of the only legitimate tanks Birthright has. 

Except her tanking ability winds up compromised because she has crap for HP.

BTW, I get the feeling you played Nights of Azure 2: Bride of the New Moon. Especially if your avatar is who I think it is.

Anyway... Seconding Rinkah. FFS, her strength and HP growths are lower than those of freaking Sakura. What the hell, IS?! And then there's Wendy. Trash bases? Check. Armored unit in a game with big maps? Check. In a mono-seize game? Check. Poor join time that makes her a serious hassle to train? Double check.

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3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except her tanking ability winds up compromised because she has crap for HP.

Funny, isn't it? Just goes to show how glass-cannon-y Birthright's units are, save for very, VERY few exceptions.

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

BTW, I get the feeling you played Nights of Azure 2: Bride of the New Moon. Especially if your avatar is who I think it is.

Crap, I've been exposed!!!
Yes, I did. And I enjoyed it very much. It's a fun game, even if the fanservice can be a bit... eeehhh...

EDIT: Also funny how many people mention Ronan, considering he's making himself out to be one of the "MVP"s of Mekkah's FE5 Iron Man LP...

Edited by DragonFlames

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3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

<On Nolan making early game more reliable>

That's a statement I can get behind.

<On forgery>

I haven't used the forgery since I was always short on gold and prioritized Skill scrolls or powerful weapons at the shop.
His Skill base of 11 and growth of 70 sound good... in theory. In practice, his actual growths never reflected the numbers for some weird reason (there are at least two other units in Fates that suffer from the same problem no matter how many times I play) and he usually ends up warming the bench once Jill and especially Volug join the party.

Then we agree for the most part. I agree Jill is miles better after she joins. I also agree Nolan is at his best as a mini-Jeigan. I think the whole  "in practice" part is not a solid argument and I also think him being a solid mini-Jeigan makes him a weird pick for worst fighter when Dorcas/Bartre, Wade/Lott and Bord/Cord exist. Also, you should totally use the forgery, it's great.

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2 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Then we agree for the most part. I agree Jill is miles better after she joins. I also agree Nolan is at his best as a mini-Jeigan. I think the whole  "in practice" part is not a solid argument and I also think him being a solid mini-Jeigan makes him a weird pick for worst fighter when Dorcas/Bartre, Wade/Lott and Bord/Cord exist. Also, you should totally use the forgery, it's great.

Yeah, personal experience is always a shaky argument for anything, but it's really all I have to go by, especially when random elements like growth rates are concerned. Anything else and I'd feel like I'm lying to myself, you know?

I honestly never really bothered with Dorcas, Bartre, Wade, Lott, Bord or Cord, so I can't really judge them. My go-to axe users were Hawkeye and Barst for FE7 and 11 respectively and I only played FE6 once and the total of axe wielders I used in that playthrough was a whopping zero.
Funny story, I even had to look up who Wade and Lott are when I saw their names in your post.

I originally based my argument on the fact that a very short time later, four units that basically render the entirety of the Dawn Brigade absolutely worthless join up with you and I usually benched Nolan right then and there. And the few times I did try using him, he turned out to be a liability more than an asset and so... another Fighter ended up on the perma-bench list, right alongside the ones you mentioned and Boyd, Vaike, Arthur and Charlotte...
I guess I mentioned Nolan since I tried to give the guy a fighting chance after hearing so many good things about him, but he turned out to be disappointing at best. At least with the other Fighters, you know they're terrible from the get-go (especially Arthur), so you can't exactly be disappointed and that's why they didn't really cross my mind when I wrote my original post.

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10 hours ago, Slumber said:

Wyvern Riders might be one of the classes that have no real bad units on paper, but Altenna might be the worst Wyvern Rider in the series. Altenna, despite being beefy as hell and having a Holy Weapon, is tossed at you during a chunk of game that's really not kind to her. She gets shredded by magic, and nothing she has can help, she barely has more utility than Hannibal, a character so bad that he's borderline a meme.

I'm not sure I agree on worst. While she's not exactly stellar, to say that she's the worst wyvern we've ever had might be a bit much. You've got units who can be not worth the hassle (Zeiss, Eda, Heath, all arguably based on context). You can also include Archanean pegasi units as unpromoted wyverns and saying she's worse than Est might be a stretch. She's definitely not going to be near the top half of wyverns though.

As for worst archer, I think I have to say Wil. Why? Ronan has the magic bulk potential, Wolt and Dorothy at least get X3 modifiers, Gordin and the other Archanean archers have benefits in their games too. Even Rebecca and Neimi are better than he is with the limited damage multipliers. Wil kind of exists at the bottom of the pile of crackers that are archers.

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Vyland is the worst cavalier from FE 1 he joins in chapter 5 but has worse base stats than both Cain and Abel who are available from chapter 1. Vyland could be useful if both Cain and Abel are dead but the other 4 units he joins with are better even Roshea.   

 

Vyland                                                                         Abel 

 

Edited by Arden88888

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44 minutes ago, Dayni said:

I'm not sure I agree on worst. While she's not exactly stellar, to say that she's the worst wyvern we've ever had might be a bit much. You've got units who can be not worth the hassle (Zeiss, Eda, Heath, all arguably based on context). You can also include Archanean pegasi units as unpromoted wyverns and saying she's worse than Est might be a stretch. She's definitely not going to be near the top half of wyverns though.

Zeiss' growths and hard mode bonuses are so insane(As a level 7, unpromoted Wyvern Knight, Zeiss will be giving most of your regular units a run for their money when you recruit him in the late game) that I really can't say he's anywhere near as bad as Altena. 

Heath joins early enough and gets good enough HM bonuses that he's viable at recruitment. He's also probably the best flier in the game being Florina, and his game is incredibly kind to fliers. 

Eda is from FE5, the one game in the franchise where basically everyone is viable. She joins just at the cusp of the "mid game", giving her plenty of time to catch up, and most regular enemy units in that game are easy EXP, even in the late game. She gets kind of hammered by being a mounted unit, meaning any indoor map will nerfed her, but her stats are good enough that she should be able to overcome this and her assets as a flying unit outweigh her liabilities as a mounted unit. 

Altena, meanwhile, has really not much at all going for her. She joins as a physical, flying tank during a point where the game is mostly magic from then on, and in a game that restricts flying units to the point where they may as well just be normal cavs/pals. She will die very quickly if you try to be too offensive with her, and tossing to most bosses in the late game will be suicide. 

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Draug.

Just... why is he an armor knight?  His growths for that class are terrible; he's much better off as a myrmidon or archer.

11 hours ago, Cornguy said:

Archanea kind of suffers from one unit just invalidating most of the other characters in the class.

This is very true in general.

The only good units are the major characters (like Caeda or "Sirius"), the Whitewings (mostly the older ones), much of the characters that join in the first two chapters of Book 1, and Hardin's Horsemen in the Shadow Dragon remake.  Also Mallesia; she wipes the floor with all the other clerics in Archanea, and she's only just a student cleric to Lena.

7 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

No one's said Meg for Knights yet? I mean self-explanatory.

You mean the sword armor from Radiant Dawn?

...  Oh god, her base growths are just like Draug's.  Why???

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