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What do you think of Fire Emblem's current state?


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Guest Dreamyboi

What are your thoughts on the current state of the Fire Emblem franchise? I don't mean it's fanbase, I mean like the mainline series.

Positive? Negative? Be honest.

Go nuts, I honestly just need an excuse to talk about something.

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I love that the series has become more mainstream. Never thought it would be possible back in the day.

As for the actual games, the 3DS games were all great. So yeah, you could say I don't mind the current state of the series. If it remains like it is on future games, I'm happy.

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On one hand, I like that it's more mainstream and more popular.

On the other, I don't really like the direction the series has been going in and don't think the 3DS games were very good (not counting Echoes). I feel they're very flawed and focusing too much on things like fanservice and ass-kissing the avatars. I also think the gameplay has been dumbed down a little too much (magic triangle removed, light magic removed, etc.), though I do like pair up. It was too broken in Awakening, but Fates did fix that. Quality of the stories and characters have gone down in favor of more fanservice, some of it in your face and over the top. Fates also tried too hard to ride Awakening's popularity imo.

And yes, I know FE had some fanservice in the past, but none of the other games had as much as Awakening and Fates do and there were certainly no cutscenes like a certain Camilla one.

Also, and this is a more minor nitpick, the titles are less interesting. I prefer the multi-word ones like Path of Radiance over plain single words like Awakening or Fates.

My expectations of FE Switch are very low due to these things and Echoes very well might have been my last FE game (unless Tellius remakes come, but that might not be for quite awhile, if at all).

Edited by Anacybele
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I worry that the more people get into the franchise the more bare bones it's going to become. Hopefully this isn't true and the games are more complex instead as time goes on, but we'll see. I do think the gameplay hit its peak at Fates with Echoes taking a slight dip (mostly due to shit map design), so if we're lucky the trend upward will continue. I hope that IS doesn't conflate "trying new things" with "making better games," because as we have seen in countless examples throughout history, change is not always for the better (and in the case of vidya is usually to the detriment of a franchise).

I stand by my countless statements that story doesn't matter to a video game's quality. The story in Echoes, however nice, doesn't make up for how not-fun the game can feel at times, especially early on. I'm in the tiny camp that likes swamp maps, though.

I think Heroes is alright. I'm not totally stoked about it like some people, but it can be fun on the bus or when otherwise passing the time.

I'm sick of archetypes. I like changing them up though, like with Kaze and Saizo. Can our next Jagen be something crazy like a Sniper? Or a new class altogether?

I don't mind the fan service much. I think it's funny at best and mildly off-putting at worst.

Keep Treehouse far away from future localizations.

Overall, Fire Emblem is doing well. It sounds like I have a lot of complaints, but they're pretty minor.

Edited by YouSquiddinMe
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I like that Fire Emblem is more mainstream since that assures more games, but that mainstream has brought about the pandering and overly fan service heavy nature of more recent games. With Awakening it was fan service for long time fans with references, but with Fates it was with a self insert protagonist, weird face petting mechanics, really sexualized female characters, and a laughable excuse for a story. Echoes did some things better but the main characters had serious problems.

In regards to gameplay I'm not too keen on a heavy skill focus as opposed to just simply units, stats, and maps. Fates (Conquest in particular) was insane about this and while it was challenging I personally prefer the more straight forward approach where the difficulty came out of building a map as opposed to strategically placed enemies with a series of skills to just annoy the player.

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A year of crossovers and a remake has left me feeling a certain type of fatigue. Or more accurately, a craving for any new story and new cast of characters. Heroes is a game I am still playing for the sheer joy of collecting and upgrading characters to seemingly no end. The millions of pieces of data they collect from players has let them craft some of the best, genuinely challenging levels ever in the series. If only the main series games could have millions of playtesters. Echoes is an ill-conceived remake of the worst game in the series. So you can bet I'm delighted to say that it's a solid B tier experience among fire emblem games. And playing any FE game with full voice acting is reason enough to celebrate. Warriors was a dud. And FE Switch is a game we still know nothing about after 14 months. So it's been a rocky year.

Not worried about the series' future. I'm always surprised to see so much doom and gloom in years where we actually get games and have more on the horizon. Even more surprising is when it comes from people who probably do have memories of a time where Fire Emblem games are announced AND released in Japan before word of an international release.

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Guest Dreamyboi
1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

My expectations of FE Switch are very low due to these things and Echoes very well might have been my last FE game (unless Tellius remakes come, but that might not be for quite awhile, if at all).

I'm halfway there with you man, though I'm trying to be hopeful for FE Switch since Awakening and Fates had reasons behind their failures that IntSys would be stupid to try again for reasons more than it just being unnecessary. 

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The last game they release is the most disapointing biggest piece of shit i have ever seen so i honestly have big expectation for the next game(in a sense that while Echoes is.... shit what they did inside Echoes isn't shit)

 

But otherwise i'm ok, i kinda hate how blatant on-the-face the fanservices are(and this is coming from a guy who tried out FE7 because of Fiora) but their games have been fun to play

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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The fanservice isn't as bad as it could have been, but if they tone it down just a teensy tiny bit, then I think we've struck the perfect balance.

Story wise...we've kinda dropped since NMotE, but we seem to be picking it back up with Echoes, so that's good.

Art and music, as always, is fantastic, and remains FE's strongest point.

Gameplay has been good. Can we go back to Shadow Dragon's gameplay please? Actually, no. I enjoyed Echoes' gameplay, just fix the maps and we'll be good.

Title wise...I prefer the one worded titles. Awakening and Fates have more meaning and are more fitting for their games than the older titles did. SoV makes sense too, as it is a remake.

FE has become a lot more mainstream, and that's great. Heroes is bringing in the money constantly for IS, and hopefully that money goes to the right places so FE16 can be absolutely beautiful.

Overall, I love where the series is going at the minute, just a few little tweaks, and it'll be great. I'm looking forward to what FE16 will bring, and I hope that Fire Emblem has a long, bright future ahead of it.

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I disagree somewhat that the series will become too streamlined in order to cater for mainstream. I think that angle has been hit by FE: Heroes and will remain seperated in that way. The casuals have Heroes but the mainline games will probably advance on the 3DS game templates with better script writing, more diverse characters and more interesting battle scenario's.

For me, heroes is a fantastic introduction to characters from titles I have not played and provides the impetus to track down and play those older titles... of course the gameplay in these titles are nothing like Heroes but to be honest it makes me appreciate how far the series has come when I played Blazing Sword shortly after finishing Fates.  However I do not see it as the sign of things to come. This is ultimately one of Nintendo/Intelligent System's prize assets and I highly doubt they will alienate its core audience with dramatic changes to the formula.

But anyway... I think FE is in a real sweet spot. Echoes was less of an experiment to alter the template then it was a fun history lesson and I can't see too many of the changes moving into the main series. If any further experiments happen I think an offshoot non canon valkyria chronicles 3D style would be interesting.

Thanks for reading :)

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On the positive side:

+ The series is getting the attention it should've had a long time ago.

+ SoV was a great remake, huge improvement from FE11. It was also a huge improvement in writing from the previous two games.

+ Heroes is doing great and bringing old characters to the forefront again. This makes me hopeful for future remakes and also better representation in future spin offs or crossovers.

+ Fates showed they're willing to be creative and I liked Conquest and Birthright.

+ The gameplay has never been more fluid and the presentation is at its peak. Voice acting does wonders for this series and the quality is finally good.

On the negative side:

- Awakening is taking them way too long to get over. Yes, the game is popular, it saved the series, it deserves recognition, but it needs to share the spotlight a bit more and they need to take a chance and do new things without fearing the Awakening crowd won't like the new games. Fates was creative but it was also afraid to be too different from Awakening.

- Spin offs thus far have been oversaturated with new characters and we know now that old characters are popular and are marketable, so hopefully if Warriors 2 or a different spin off happens it'll be something more broadly appealing.

- SoV really suffered from them sticking too closely to the original in the gameplay (particularly maps). Future remakes need to be willing to change outdated features.

- Fanservice has gotten out of hand. Limit it more to Heroes.

- Titles have devolved into generic words. Awakening is ok, but Fates could describe any game in the series and means nothing on its own. Heroes is ehh but it's a mobile game. Echoes would've been bad on its own, or if it doesn't become a sub-series, but Shadows of Valentia is good.

Overall, I'm apprehensively optimistic, I guess.

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Oh yeah, I can appreciate the voice acting, yeah. I hope full VAing comes back since it was so fun in Echoes and FE Warriors.

I have to admit though, I can't dislike Awakening and Fates completely, the former in particular because it did save the series and it did give us Frederick whom I absolutely adore to pieces, as people know. :P Fates also gave us Ryoma who I like a lot. And Silas.

All I want is for the story and characters to be better again, the fanservice to be toned down a bit (and make more sense at times...), and the gameplay to be more akin to RD or maybe Conquest (didn't play this one, but I heard the gameplay is fantastic). Also, a support system more like PoR. Everyone x everyone is dumb imo.

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It's... complicated, but overall I am very happy with where the franchise is.

Recent games have been great, even if they have flaws. The fanbase is bigger than it's ever been, thanks to Heroes (to the point where I actually have friends playing it and I can even bump into strangers playing it as well). More importantly, the franchise is actually alive and kicking, unlike others that didn't have their "Awakening moment". I feel sorry for Golden Sun, Advance Wars fans, etc.

However, I firmly believe that what IS/Nintendo does next will be very important for the franchise's future growth. I am mainly talking about Fire Emblem for Switch. Awakening was huge, but it was still limited to a handheld. FE Switch is probably the best opportunity for the franchise to really make a name for itself. I just hope they don't mess it up...

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I didn't really include SoV and Heroes in thinking about the "current state" so I guess I'll touch on them.

SoV is a miracle of presentation. Gameplaywise it's passable enough (mostly due to at least playing quickly), but is mostly a waste of potential and really, a contender for  most embarrasing map design  in post 2008 FE. It can be used to illustrate the mechanics  / story / levels  "three pillar" gameplay model. However, I think the full potential of SoV is a lot lower than other games that intentionally shun 1 (or even 2) pillars, such as PlaneScape: Torment and Jagged Alliance. SoV mechanics with its skill/magic/arrow range would be better on maps specifically designed to accomodate it (or even on GBA maps) but it would still be a pretty light RPG. 

Heroes - Gameplaywise, Fire Emblem Heroes is sometimes really brilliant... More strategy is packed into it's lunatic and infernal maps than in the hardest difficulties of most of the main series games. This is increasingly applicable even to it's Hard mode maps.  I find it especially remarkable that IS has responded to the type of units/strategies players favor to continue to create challenges.  When looking at SA 1 compared to what we have today - we can see  the use of Skill-less enemies with strictly high stats on the one hand contrasted with far more complex design. Heroes does have the perenial RPG problem where it's Player V Event content can decay a bit for people who have succesfully built exceptionally strong units and can simply beat down new content on its first day, but this is nothing that the main games (with postgame maps) can't really be said to be free from. In addition most people are decently below that point, and do actually need to put in a lot elbow grease into new content...

Granted the allowance for difficulty is due to the non-permadeath nature of Heroes, but I think at least the kind of design in its Hard mode maps should definately spill over into a new main series games.

The map design is especially nice considering that the Developers can't narrow down into knowing the players will always use a small pool of 25~ units (as with a main game. The Late-Game maps of most Fire Emblems tend to be a really mixed bag, espeically in the 4 games with Re-classing. I think it's a positive reversal of the trend of IS not being able to account for the range of player compositions. 

I think a lot of why I prefer Fates and Heroes over most of the main series games is that they strike a much better balance between rewarding player phase strategies and enemy phase strategies. Many of main series games of course, feature far more enemy phase combat than player phase combat, sometimes to an absurd degree. In Heroes this is possile with EG, a steady breath or Dragon Team, but you can't make a clear cut judgement that those are strictly better than a player phase team (eg brave/firebow/Desperation stuff). In the regular games, the best EP units are more or less also the best PP units, which can lead to problematic centralization of charathers and (but this is less talked about) the variety of positonal strategies used in the game. 

Obviously a few games have made serious attempts* at making Player Phase combat equally important , but I don't think that they have done so quite as naturally as Fates and Heroes have for the most part. 

*(FE6 gives enemies steel weapons so that they will do some damage and die so that another unit can take their slot, meaning that it encourages a strong but not too strong appraoch to chokepoints- FE11-12 simply steroids the enemies to the point where you'd better not even think about playing the game like it was Blazing Sword)

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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Oh yeah, I can appreciate the voice acting, yeah. I hope full VAing comes back since it was so fun in Echoes and FE Warriors.

I have to admit though, I can't dislike Awakening and Fates completely, the former in particular because it did save the series and it did give us Frederick whom I absolutely adore to pieces, as people know. :P Fates also gave us Ryoma who I like a lot. And Silas.

All I want is for the story and characters to be better again, the fanservice to be toned down a bit (and make more sense at times...), and the gameplay to be more akin to RD or maybe Conquest (didn't play this one, but I heard the gameplay is fantastic). Also, a support system more like PoR. Everyone x everyone is dumb imo.

Agreed 100% with this especially the fanservice bit. Personally I don't mind fanservice all too much so long as it isn't too intrusive or makes sense in the context of the narrative or character. Like beach DLCs/banners are fine because for one it's a beach so obviously you're gonna see guys/girls in skimpy swimsuits and it doesn't really hurt the overall characters or story it's just simple entertaining fanservice. What I don't like are characters like tharja or camilla who are just scantily clad and obsessed with the avatar for really no particular reason other than that it's supposed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Tharja's and Camilla's characters suffer a lot because of this and it's a shame because both have the potential to be great characters if they weren't subject to the whole avatar sexual thing.

Edited by Otts486
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I’ve been debating whether or not I’m qualified to contribute to this discussion, but after considering that many of the commentators here are ones who have played Fire Emblem for almost a decade (possibly more), it might be fair to share my opinion considering I’ve only started getting into the series around 2015.

I started with Awakening, and then played Fates on release by getting the Special Edition. I played Heroes at launch, which then prompted me to play Blazing Sword via emulator. Around last December I moved onto Sacred Stones, and most recently I completed Binding Blade, which dethroned Awakening as my favorite FE game. I refuse to play Echoes for several reasons, and I’ve yet to play the Archanea games/their remakes, the Judgral games, and the Tellius games, though I’m familiar with their respective lores. I do think I otherwise have a decent amount of street cred at this point. 

While it is now currently my second favorite title, I do think Awakening is what I want future titles to be like. I do like having an avatar, having marriages, pair up, reclassing, voice acting, etc. I’m indifferent to fanservice, partially because hardly any of my favorite characters get featured, but I can say I prefer the likes of Eirika and Lyn as opposed to, say, Camilla. I do want games to continue being approachable to people who simply want to have fun and enjoy this games rather than to encourage flexing and enforce punishing mechanics. Also, let’s keep the spin-off train going! I do want to play Warriors someday, not so much TMS... bleh. 

Overall, I have high hopes that my enjoyment of Fire Emblem will continue, and I’m looking forward to the Nintendo Switch game.

Edited by SilvertheShadow
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The state of the franchise itself is quite rosy. It finally got a lot of mainstream attention and the sales that come with it, reviewers give high scores and Heroes might lead to a greater interest in the older games. 

2017 was a pretty big milestone for Fire emblem with three big titles, two of one which went on to do quite well and Warriors didn't exactly fail either. It was a year that showed Fire emblem was part of Nintendo's big boy franchises and that Nintendo realizes it.

But I do wonder what the future holds. Fates didn't really bridge the gap between old and new fans...actually it probably made it a lot worse. With Fates the fans had a clear choice. Newbies could chose the more accessible but bland Birthright while veterans could take the harsh but rewarding Conquest. I don't think that choice is going to be there next time which makes me wonder what route they will take. They can make a ''baby's first FE'' like Birthright again to appeal to the new fans but I doubt incredibly easy enemies, flat field maps and nothing but rout objectives will satisfy the old fans. Is could have reached the conclusion that the new fans grew more comfortable with the series and are ready try something harder but if they are wrong they might only please the old fans while losing the more numerous newer fans. If IS looks for a happy middle ground they might end up pleasing everyone....or no one. 

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26 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Agreed 100% with this especially the fanservice bit. Personally I don't mind fanservice all too much so long as it isn't too intrusive or makes sense in the context of the narrative or character. Like beach DLCs/banners are fine because for one it's a beach so obviously you're gonna see guys/girls in skimpy swimsuits and it doesn't really hurt the overall characters or story it's just simple entertaining fanservice. What I don't like are characters like tharja or camilla who are just scantily clad and obsessed with the avatar for really no particular reason other than that it's supposed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Tharja's and Camilla's characters suffer a lot because of this and it's a shame because both have the potential to be great characters if they weren't subject to the whole avatar sexual thing.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts exactly.

Tharja and Camilla are just way too in your face and dumb. Odin's outfit is stupid too. In fact, all dark mages in Fates look bad imo. But things like beach DLCs and banners in Heroes are fine. People wear swimsuits in the summer and at the beach.

Also, another example, coincidentally for me, is Frederick. His outfit obviously isn't fanservicey, but I'm sure people noticed his...erm, crotch bulge. ...Yeah. I may be a bit biased, but even though his pants are kinda tight and then his swim shorts sometimes show that bulgy-ness too, he IS kind of a big tall hunky guy, so him being big down there isn't unrealistic. I can look past it for that reason alone. But I do think a guy like him would prefer looser pants. He's modest, man. He even acts uncomfortable showing skin when he's in his swim shorts.

Edited by Anacybele
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Honestly, to put it simply... I'm just glad it's alive.

It might be something veterans make fun of, but I'm just literally glad the series is alive. I wouldn't be where I am if not for Awakening. I wouldn't have an almost wife it it weren't for Awakening. I do agree with the sentiment that they are taking FAR TOO LONG to move on from the Awakening formula though. I mean I understand it since their longevity is dependent on the initial numbers they got from the series being saved... but it's feeling a little stale.

It's just great getting hyped for titles on a regular basis, however. Since we have all this spinoff content.

...I definitely stay away from the community more nowadays however. As the series gets bigger the more divisive it gets. Which is natural.

In a way, it's nice being not niche anymore. But also not nice.

I mean when you get a minority saying "I wish Warriors flops" or "I wish the series died with Awakening", it's really irritating to acknowledge that they are essentially a fan of the series like you are.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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I loved Fire Emblem from the moment I first started playing Path of Radiance and I still love it now. I, for one, think the series is doing fine.

What I like most is that they stay true to their core ideas and change up just enough so that every game feels like its own unique experience (remakes notwithstanding). Sure, some story elements are same-y, but I think that's part of a series' identity. Every series follows it's own set of tropes and I'm fine with Fire Emblem doing the same, since, again, they change up just enough to make every story seem at least somewhat unique, even Warriors.
I am also one of the few who are fine with the dating sim aspects in Awakening and Fates and that the franchise as a whole seems to evolve into that kind of direction. But that's probably more from me being a very lonely asshat having a soft spot for these kinds of games and romance stories in general. A lot of my favourite games have dating sim aspects (Persona 5, Stella Glow, Conception II, even 7th Dragon III), so why not Fire Emblem?
 

Though, while I am not one whose glass is always half-empty, I am not quite sure if I am entirely fine with their DLC philosophy lately. Seeing what happened in the video game industry at large in the last few years, I am very worried we might see more and more shady business tactics in the future.

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40 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

...I definitely stay away from the community more nowadays however. As the series gets bigger the more divisive it gets. Which is natural.

In a way, it's nice being not niche anymore. But also not nice.

I mean when you get a minority saying "I wish Warriors flops" or "I wish the series died with Awakening", it's really irritating to acknowledge that they are essentially a fan of the series like you are.

Now this is something I completely agree with and wanted to bring up myself, but omitted in the end to leave my post mostly positive.

Seriously, at times I feel the community puts the Undertale fandom and Onegenners to shame. It’s quite annoying to have people constantly tell you how the game should/shouldn’t be played, and then proceed to not take you seriously for liking/not liking a certain game/character. I honestly find it ridiculous. Whatever happened to “To each their own?”. I even have a couple friends who are hesitant to try the games in fear of being mocked and ridiculed by others. 

I do hope Fire Emblem somehow reaches a decent compromise with their future games (and no, Echoes was not one of them, hence why I didn’t buy it), and hopefully people will gradually be more cordial towards each other. However, I’m not holding my breath.

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5 minutes ago, SilvertheShadow said:

Now this is something I completely agree with and wanted to bring up myself, but omitted in the end to leave my post mostly positive.

Seriously, at times I feel the community puts the Undertale fandom and Onegenners to shame. It’s quite annoying to have people constantly tell you how the game should/shouldn’t be played, and then proceed to not take you seriously for liking/not liking a certain game/character. I honestly find it ridiculous. Whatever happened to “To each their own?”. I even have a couple friends who are hesitant to try the games in fear of being mocked and ridiculed by others. 

I do hope Fire Emblem somehow reaches a decent compromise with their future games (and no, Echoes was not one of them, hence why I didn’t buy it), and hopefully people will gradually be more cordial towards each other. However, I’m not holding my breath.

That's just what happens when groups become larger. Opinions differ and it's human nature to form groups of similar mindsets, separating ourselves from others. We are no different from wolves, lions or other animals that live in packs in that regard, even if some people try to deny it, but those people are - and I'm sorry to say this so directly - wrong.
Such separation usually breeds animosity toward other groups in a constant struggle for superiority. Not everyone can go beyond that basic instinct and those who can really, honestly accept others of different groups are - sadly - few and far between (although SF does seem to be a gathering pool for these kinds of people) and will only get rarer with time, because the middle ground is considered weak, cowardly etc, etc. (If you don't believe me on this one, just look at some posts about how "refusing to pick a side is the coward's way out" in some SMT boards or even Fire Emblem forums, concerning Revelation).
This is also where derogatory terms such as "elitist", "casual" or "Genwunner" are born, which really do not help resolve the core issue, and instead only further fuel the flames of conflict, turning them into an inferno of epic proportions. Discrimination against other groups is both the result and the method.

When new people enter the "domain" of a certain group, the fire gets directed at the newcomers, because the "veterans" are scared to lose their superiority to these new people. Case in point: Every statement ever made about how "the casuals are ruining Fire Emblem", "they pander to the waifu crowd too much", "oh no, Fire Emblem changes" and so on and so forth. While having different meanings on their own, in context, these statements are all symptom for the fear I mentioned earlier.

This is also why I firmly believe the whole globalization deal is doomed to fail sooner or later. But we're not here to talk about politics. 

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