What do you think of Fire Emblem's current state?

[shadowofchaos]

41 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

 "oh no, Fire Emblem changes"

Just focusing on this simple statement.

I mean... games... humans... they all change simply because of the fact that human interests and attention span is volatile. So the unwillingness to accept change, regardless of people liking an older fire emblem or newer one... is... kind of silly to put it lightly.

[DragonFlames]

3 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

Just focusing on this simple statement.

I mean... games... humans... they all change simply because of the fact that human interests and attention span is volatile. So the unwillingness to accept change, regardless of people liking an older fire emblem or newer one... is... kind of silly to put it lightly.

Indeed.

[Ottservia]

4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

That's just what happens when groups become larger. Opinions differ and it's human nature to form groups of similar mindsets, separating ourselves from others. We are no different from wolves, lions or other animals that live in packs in that regard, even if some people try to deny it, but those people are - and I'm sorry to say this so directly - wrong.
Such separation usually breeds animosity toward other groups in a constant struggle for superiority. Not everyone can go beyond that basic instinct and those who can really, honestly accept others of different groups are - sadly - few and far between (although SF does seem to be a gathering pool for these kinds of people) and will only get rarer with time, because the middle ground is considered weak, cowardly etc, etc. (If you don't believe me on this one, just look at some posts about how "refusing to pick a side is the coward's way out" in some SMT boards or even Fire Emblem forums, concerning Revelation).
This is also where derogatory terms such as "elitist", "casual" or "Genwunner" are born, which really do not help resolve the core issue, and instead only further fuel the flames of conflict, turning them into an inferno of epic proportions. Discrimination against other groups is both the result and the method.

When new people enter the "domain" of a certain group, the fire gets directed at the newcomers, because the "veterans" are scared to lose their superiority to these new people. Case in point: Every statement ever made about how "the casuals are ruining Fire Emblem", "they pander to the waifu crowd too much", "oh no, Fire Emblem changes" and so on and so forth. While having different meanings on their own, in context, these statements are all symptom for the fear I mentioned earlier.

This is also why I firmly believe the whole globalization deal is doomed to fail sooner or later. But we're not here to talk about politics. 

Well that was a profound statement. I applaud you for your speech good sir. I agree 100%

[Slumber]

More negative than positive. 

The things I like about the franchise are being overshadowed by things I don't like, which are either becoming more exaggerated or are new entirely. 

Things like Avatars, S rank supports, marriage, meta-gaming, and children are now main selling points of the franchise rather than bullet points and one-off features. I didn't really care about any of these things when they were first introduced, and it's only gotten worse each time they've shown up. Character gimmicks have gotten completely out of hand, and the "Hahaha so whacky and anime" style of writing leaves me wanting to slit my wrists rather than read the text in Fates or Awakening. There being like a billion support conversations only makes it worse. And gameplay wise, as good as Conquest was, it was 1/3 of Fates. It feels like for every 1 step forward, there are about 2 back. 

I'll probably always give FE a chance, but Awakening and Fates have damaged the series in my eyes. Probably half the reason I'm not frothing at the mouth for FE Switch info is because deep down, I'm afraid it'll keep doubling down on things I don't like. So yeah. It might end up that my hope for the franchise might be localized to remakes. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Slumber

[DragonFlames]

8 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Well that was a profound statement. I applaud you for your speech good sir. I agree 100%

Why, thank you!

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

Why, thank you!

Your very welcome. Also about what you said. That’s something that’s always bugged about humans. Why do we feel the need to feel superior to others. I mean I guess it’s just innate primal instinct because y’know survival of the fittest and all but idk it’s just that bothers me.

 

17 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Things like Avatars, S rank supports, marriage, meta-gaming, and children are now main selling points of the franchise rather than bullet points and one-off features. I didn't really care about any of these things when they were first introduced, and it's only gotten worse each time they've shown up. Character gimmicks have gotten completely out of hand, and the "Hahaha so whacky and anime" style of writing leaves me wanting to slit my wrists rather than read the text in Fates or Awakening. There being like a billion support conversations only makes it worse. And gameplay wise, as good as Conquest was, it was 1/3 of Fates. It feels like for every 1 step forward, there are about 2 back. 

I personally see no problem with character gimmicks or “anime” style writing. Fire emblem is a Japanese game and as such is obviously going to be influenced by other Japanese media. Heck fire emblem has always had a sort of “anime” influence. It’s that just like fire emblem anime has changed drastically since the late 80’s and early 90’s. I mean back then we had shows like devilman, dragonball, fist of the north star, etc. and today we have stuff like eromanga sensei, my hero acadamia, miss koboyashi’s dragon maid, and so on and so forth. Fire emblem is just changing because it’s influences and culture have changed as well. Now whether or not you agree with or find these changes good is up to personal preference but it’s important to note these changes and the reasoning behind them. Again I personally have no real issue with it so long as it’s excuted properly and I get a good product out of it. But that’s just my opinion. 

 

[Guest Dreamyboi]

39 minutes ago, Slumber said:

More negative than positive. 

The things I like about the franchise are being overshadowed by things I don't like, which are either becoming more exaggerated or are new entirely. 

Things like Avatars, S rank supports, marriage, meta-gaming, and children are now main selling points of the franchise rather than bullet points and one-off features. I didn't really care about any of these things when they were first introduced, and it's only gotten worse each time they've shown up. Character gimmicks have gotten completely out of hand, and the "Hahaha so whacky and anime" style of writing leaves me wanting to slit my wrists rather than read the text in Fates or Awakening. There being like a billion support conversations only makes it worse. And gameplay wise, as good as Conquest was, it was 1/3 of Fates. It feels like for every 1 step forward, there are about 2 back. 

I'll probably always give FE a chance, but Awakening and Fates have damaged the series in my eyes. Probably half the reason I'm not frothing at the mouth for FE Switch info is because deep down, I'm afraid it'll keep doubling down on things I don't like. So yeah. It might end up that my hope for the franchise might be localized to remakes. 

Gotta say, I think I agree with this response the most. Except the last bit, because I can't wait to hear what they have planned for FE Switch. Mainly because I want to know whether I should start skipping cutscenes or not

 

 

[Slumber]

19 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

I personally see no problem with character gimmicks or “anime” style writing. Fire emblem is a Japanese game and as such is obviously going to be influenced by other Japanese media. Heck fire emblem has always had a sort of “anime” influence. It’s that just like fire emblem anime has changed drastically since the late 80’s and early 90’s. I mean back then we had shows like devilman, dragonball, fist of the north star, etc. and today we have stuff like eromanga sensei, my hero acadamia, miss koboyashi’s dragon maid, and so on and so forth. Fire emblem is just changing because it’s influences and culture have changed as well. Now whether or not you agree with or find these changes good is up to personal preference but it’s important to note these changes and the reasoning behind them. Again I personally have no real issue with it so long as it’s excuted properly and I get a good product out of it. But that’s just my opinion. 

 

... And? 

Shows like EMS and MHA have existed for as long as FE has. Longer, actually. 

But it never felt like FE was directly inspired by that stuff. Ike went around fighting for his friends when One Piece and Naruto were at their peaks, but it never felt like PoR or RD were directly inspired by that stuff. 

Anime as a whole has changed a lot less over the last 30 years than FE has. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Slumber

[Guest Dreamyboi]

Not to mention earlier FE games didn't give us underage looking characters in bikinis. Yes, this does bother me.

[DragonFlames]

20 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Your very welcome. Also about what you said. That’s something that’s always bugged about humans. Why do we feel the need to feel superior to others. I mean I guess it’s just innate primal instinct because y’know survival of the fittest and all but idk it’s just that bothers me.

Me too, but hey, what can you do other than accept it and try to rise above?

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

But it never felt like FE was directly inspired by that stuff. Ike went around fighting for his friends when One Piece and Naruto were at their peaks, but it never felt like PoR or RD were directly inspired by that stuff. 

Don't quote me on this, but I think the whole "doing something for someone else instead of just yourself is better" thing is pretty substantial to Eastern philosophy. I don't know if it's true or not, though.

1 minute ago, Dreamyboi said:

Not to mention earlier FE games didn't give us underage looking characters in bikinis. Yes, this does bother me.

Well, they're not as aggravating, but Tiki and Linde were pretty lightly dressed in FE1 and Shadow Dragon when compared to the others. Just look at their respective Heroes artworks.
Though I don't know why they felt the need to make Linde a loli in Heroes, and I don't think I really want to know, actually.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Well, they're not as aggravating, but Tiki and Linde were pretty lightly dressed in FE1 and Shadow Dragon when compared to the others. Just look at their respective Heroes artworks.
Though I don't know why they felt the need to make Linde a loli in Heroes, and I don't think I really want to know, actually.

Because appealing to pedos rakes in more money Yeah, I don't really know why they did that either.

[Ottservia]

32 minutes ago, Slumber said:

... And? 

Shows like EMS and MHA have existed for as long as FE has. Longer, actually. 

But it never felt like FE was directly inspired by that stuff. Ike went around fighting for his friends when One Piece and Naruto were at their peaks, but it never felt like PoR or RD were directly inspired by that stuff. 

Anime as a whole has changed a lot less over the last 30 years than FE has. 

I think the key difference to note here is prominence. Like back in the day harem and battle shounen manga/anime were very few and far between. It wasn’t really until dragonball that battle shounens as we know them today really became a thing. Same with harem/ecchi fanservice anime. It wasn’t until say love hina that harem shows started cropping up everywhere. As the years went on and more and more fans of anime got into these industries, everything just sort of blended together and became what modern anime is today. It’s the same with FE. As fans grew older and became more involved with the industry they started to implement things they were influenced by in their childhood. Idk if what I’m saying makes much sense but those are my general thoughts. Also it seems We’re never going to see eye to eye on this so let’s just agree to disagree. My apologies for starting this.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Otts486

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, Dreamyboi said:

Because appealing to pedos rakes in more money Yeah, I don't really know why they did that either.

You know, you may be on to something. I mean, why else would they make swimsuit Elise and Sakura in a skimpy cat outfit?

Something else I forgot to mention in my original post (not the philosophical one) was that I also don't mind if the characters are a bit whacky IF it fits the tone of the game. Awakening's occasional whackiness worked for me, because it kept the jokes where they were appropriate (most notably in the DLC scenarios, which were whacky in and of themselves, and some supports) and left the more serious moments untouched by their attempts at humour.
Fates tried to do it, too, but it didn't really fit in with the game's significantly more serious tone, hence why Henry worked (sort of) and Peri... well, didn't. 
But I am glad they went back to generally more realistic characters in Echoes and I hope they stick with this style for future games. Though I would have nothing against an overall more light hearted Fire Emblem story, since I am always up for a good laugh. Bravely Second did it and it worked swimmingly, so I personally see no reason why Fire Emblem can't do the same on occasion.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

You know, you may be on to something. I mean, why else would they make swimsuit Elise and Sakura in a skimpy cat outfit?

Something else I forgot to mention in my original post (not the philosophical one) was that I also don't mind if the characters are a bit whacky IF it fits the tone of the game. Awakening's occasional whackiness worked for me, because it kept the jokes where they were appropriate (most notably in the DLC scenarios, which were whacky in and of themselves, and some supports) and left the more serious moments untouched by their attempts at humour.
Fates tried to do it, too, but it didn't really fit in with the game's significantly more serious tone, hence why Henry worked (sort of) and Peri... well, didn't. 
But I am glad they went back to generally more realistic characters in Echoes and I hope they stick with this style for future games. Though I would have nothing against an overall more light hearted Fire Emblem story, since I am always up for a good laugh. Bravely Second did it and it worked swimmingly, so I personally see no reason why Fire Emblem can't do the same on occasion.

I'm hoping for a more serious FE but maybe it's best they go lighthearted if they're going to have more characters like Peri, because shit like that was just immersion breaking and obnoxious.

[Jave]

1 minute ago, Dreamyboi said:

I'm hoping for a more serious FE but maybe it's best they go lighthearted if they're going to have more characters like Peri, because shit like that was just immersion breaking and obnoxious.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again. I'd LOVE a well-executed Fire Emblem that entirely comedic.

Endgame should be the Lord and his/her party arriving at the final room only to find out another group of people have already defeated the final boss.

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, Dreamyboi said:

I'm hoping for a more serious FE but maybe it's best they go lighthearted if they're going to have more characters like Peri, because shit like that was just immersion breaking and obnoxious.

Agreed. Gimmicky and whacky characters work better in a light hearted setting where you can crank their traits up to eleven and no one will bat an eye, since it's not meant to be taken seriously.
Exaggeration is a common form of comedy, after all.

[Ottservia]

13 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

You know, you may be on to something. I mean, why else would they make swimsuit Elise and Sakura in a skimpy cat outfit?

Something else I forgot to mention in my original post (not the philosophical one) was that I also don't mind if the characters are a bit whacky IF it fits the tone of the game. Awakening's occasional whackiness worked for me, because it kept the jokes where they were appropriate (most notably in the DLC scenarios, which were whacky in and of themselves, and some supports) and left the more serious moments untouched by their attempts at humour.
Fates tried to do it, too, but it didn't really fit in with the game's significantly more serious tone, hence why Henry worked (sort of) and Peri... well, didn't. 
But I am glad they went back to generally more realistic characters in Echoes and I hope they stick with this style for future games. Though I would have nothing against an overall more light hearted Fire Emblem story, since I am always up for a good laugh. Bravely Second did it and it worked swimmingly, so I personally see no reason why Fire Emblem can't do the same on occasion.

I don’t think it’s impossible to successfully blend together serious and light hearted elements into a single story. Then again that has a lot to do with how you define those two terms. I mean a lot of anime and even previous FEs do this well. However I will agree that fates botched it up pretty hard.

[Slumber]

43 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

I think the key difference to note here is prominence. Like back in the day harem and battle shounen manga/anime were very few and far between. It wasn’t really until dragonball that battle shounens as we know them today really became a thing. Same with harem/ecchi fanservice anime. It wasn’t until say love hina that harem shows started cropping up everywhere. As the years went on and more and more fans of anime got into these industries, everything just sort of blended together and became what modern anime is today. It’s the same with FE. As fans grew older and became more involved with the industry they started to implement things they were influenced by in their childhood. Idk if what I’m saying makes much sense but those are my general thoughts. Also it seems We’re never going to see eye to eye on this so let’s just agree to disagree. My apologies for starting this.

Dragon Ball is 35 years old, and Love Hina is some thing like 25.

People who grew up with those shows aren't just NOW getting into the industry. And if they are, they're just as likely to pop up as people who watched Berserk, Jojo, Evangelion, Fist of the North Star, and many, many other highly influential/prominent series that were popular around the same periods of time as DB and LH. The truth of the matter is probably a lot more cynical than people simply wearing their influences on their sleeves.

When Awakening was a last-ditch effort to keep the series afloat, at some point in the development, there was probably a deliberate strategy to appeal to as many people as possible, despite the constant "Nonono, we were only thinking of the fans" claims from IS. When Awakening made boatloads of money, the development from the get-go with Fates likely devolved from "Appeal to the broadest crowd possible" to "Appeal to the absolute lowest common denominator". Which is how, DESPITE HIRING A WELL RESPECTED MANGA AUTHOR TO WRITE FOR THE GAME, the script was butchered, hacked to pieces, and feels more like it was written by a horny 13 year old who just binge-watched Sword Art Online. Or rather, it looks and feels like it was written by a bunch of suits who desperately wanted to appeal to horny 13 year old who just binge watched SAO. 

I don't even know how to describe the further devolution of Heroes. It's like they now want to go for that horny 13 year old who just binge watched SAO's one friend that they keep around purely so nobody can say that they don't have friends. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Slumber

[Ottservia]

19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

When Awakening was a last-ditch effort to keep the series afloat, at some point in the development, there was probably a deliberate strategy to appeal to as many people as possible, despite the constant "Nonono, we were only thinking of the fans" claims from IS. When Awakening made boatloads of money, the development from the get-go with Fates likely devolved from "Appeal to the broadest crowd possible" to "Appeal to the absolute lowest common denominator". Which is how, DESPITE HIRING A WELL RESPECTED MANGA AUTHOR TO WRITE FOR THE GAME, the script was butchered, hacked to pieces, and feels more like it was written by a horny 13 year old who just binge-watched Sword Art Online. Or rather, it looks and feels like it was written by a bunch of suits who desperately wanted to appeal to horny 13 year old who just binge watched SAO

I will actually agree with this. Fates in my opinion does waaay too much to pander to the waifu/otaku community and it can be really annoying at times. I mean with awakening it was sort of ok because it wasn’t so in your face about it. Fates however is ugh disgusting. It’s like if you took all the worst aspects of modern anime(harems, shameful pandering fanservice, imoutos, mary sue self insert protagonists, etc.) and mixed them together and this is what you get. Tbh it really feels like it came straight out of an A1 pictures Light novel adaptation.

19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

People who grew up with those shows aren't just NOW getting into the industry. And if they are, they're just as likely to pop up as people who watched Berserk, Jojo, Evangelion, Fist of the North Star, and many, many other highly influential/prominent series that were popular around the same periods of time as DB and LH. The truth of the matter is probably a lot more cynical than people simply wearing their influences on their sleeves.

Okay that’s a fair point. I will concede this argument. I really do believe the truth of the matter is really the flood of Japanese otaku in the industry and I feel that’s something that needs to be fixed. I mean it’s these guys that are wanting all this goddamn shameful fanservice pandering. It’s also the reason harem and isekai shows are so prominent nowadays because these guys want wish-fulfillment. Ugh it’s annoying.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Otts486

[Guest Dreamyboi]

13 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Dragon Ball is 35 years old, and Love Hina is some thing like 25.

People who grew up with those shows aren't just NOW getting into the industry. And if they are, they're just as likely to pop up as people who watched Berserk, Jojo, Evangelion, Fist of the North Star, and many, many other highly influential/prominent series that were popular around the same periods of time as DB and LH. The truth of the matter is probably a lot more cynical than people simply wearing their influences on their sleeves.

When Awakening was a last-ditch effort to keep the series afloat, at some point in the development, there was probably a deliberate strategy to appeal to as many people as possible, despite the constant "Nonono, we were only thinking of the fans" claims from IS. When Awakening made boatloads of money, the development from the get-go with Fates likely devolved from "Appeal to the broadest crowd possible" to "Appeal to the absolute lowest common denominator". Which is how, DESPITE HIRING A WELL RESPECTED MANGA AUTHOR TO WRITE FOR THE GAME, the script was butchered, hacked to pieces, and feels more like it was written by a horny 13 year old who just binge-watched Sword Art Online. Or rather, it looks and feels like it was written by a bunch of suits who desperately wanted to appeal to horny 13 year old who just binge watched SAO. 

I don't even know how to describe the further devolution of Heroes. It's like they now want to go for that horny 13 year old who just binge watched SAO's one friend that they keep around purely so nobody can say that they don't have friends. 

I wont lie, it DID feel like I was playing a light novel anime.

Mary Sue protagonist, check

One dimensional antagonists, check

Contrivance after contrivance, check

Steriotypical characters, check

I want to believe the script turned out the way it did for more reasons than just a bunch of suits wanting to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but at the same time Revelation exists and......yeah.

[Lewyn]

In the other thread about what you liked about recent Fire Emblem games, I stated the strong positives.  This is going to be some negatives (though not all).

Firstly the good (some more specific stuff in that other thread, don't want to repeat here)

-Fire Emblem is now mainstream.  Most people who play video games will at least have heard of it, I mean it isn't Zelda or Mario level of common knowledge but it is far from obscure.

-Fire Emblem Heroes bring in an absurd $300 million or so in its first year means that they can go all out in terms of budget, like Zelda team and Mario team always get to do for their big console releases.  It also is a satisfying game in its own right, which gives fans something to play between releases.  

-Echoes may have started a separate side series to remake past games, which is exciting particularly for games that never released outside of Japan.  

 

Now the bad

-Avatars need to go.  First we get Robin, who at least is written well and doesn't hog all the spotlight which still shines on Chrom and Lucina.  However then we get Corrin.  My god, Corrin.  The writing for him is a new level of horrendous I've never seen, plus he completely hogs the spotlight, and everyone worships the ground he walks on regardless of what he does.  This is part of the problem of avatars, they represent the player.  So firstly they have to be broken OP, secondly have access to tons of classes or uber unique classes, have to be able to marry the entire cast or close to it regardless of how absurd it is,  they completely distract from the story like a plague coming from another world as well.  

-Sexualization of prepubescent characters.  Nowi, need I say more?  Okay, that you can marry Elise or some of the kids in Fates/Awakening who are super young.  I'll get to fanservice in a minute, but the whole sexualization of kids is frankly disgusting and is really a bad look for the series.

-Fanservice was fine in early games, also fine in Echoes (is their fanservice?  Maybe when Mathilda is in prison her pose?).  Fine in Awakening too, besides the kids thing.  However Fates.  Petting, the house invitations, ah the glorious Camilla cut scene with that enticing incest layer on top!  Fanservice is fine, but better if subtle and not hit with a sledgehammer constantly.  That also greatly distracts from the story and what is supposed to usually be a serious time/world.

 

[Dismissed]

Let me list a grocery list of what FE probably needs to do:

• Less lolis (a limit to one loli, preferably not wearing very revealing outfits)
• If not, then more opposite-gender lolis (What are they called again? I forgot.) (to balance out the lolis)
• Less waifus/husbandos
• GBA Era/Echoes level of fanservice (some characters look pretty/hot, but nothing overtly sexual/skimpy like Camilla or Tharja)
• GBA style animations (I'm tired of units just bonking each other with their weapons)
• Less anime, more medieval/fantasy (Final Fantasy also has a problem with this, becoming less fantasy and more anime as time goes on)
• 5 or more varied nations, like Archanea, Elibe, or Magvel
• Make sure that wacky and funny scenes are seperated/distanced from the serious scenes
• Worldbuilding
• GBA-era mechanics, but with Str/Mag split, and hybrid classes

That's all I can think of right now.

[NinjaMonkey]

I'm not fond of it, to be honest. Awakening was fine, but I'd say that Fates was a change for the worst (which is why I didn't purchase it). The only way I'd ever be hyped for a FE game would be if they made a return to the PoR/RD type of game, but that's never going to happen.

19 minutes ago, Purple Mage said:

Let me list a grocery list of what FE probably needs to do:

• GBA-era mechanics

 The CON system sucks, dude. Just leave it in the past where it belongs.

[Dismissed]

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

 The CON system sucks, dude. Just leave it in the past where it belongs.

That's true. I forgot about that. Con really sucked, and it made me develop a distaste for pegs.

[DragonFlames]

6 hours ago, Purple Mage said:

Less waifus/husbandos

Well, that would mean less characters in general, I think, since people will always pick a "waifu" / "husbando" if they like a character enough, regardless of whether or not the game has an Avatar or romance options. Just look at how many people say that Lyn or Eirika is their waifu or how Marth or Ike is their husbando. That isn't something that Awakening or Fates introduced to the franchise, far from it in fact. They just made it more pronounced.

As an aside, I love how most people rag on Tharja, Nowi and / or Camilla for wearing skimpy outfits (and rightfully so) but then completely ignore Olivia, who might wear the skimpiest outfit that ever skimpied. Maybe because Olivia is less popular? Regardless, it's still interesting to see.