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Worst class in the series?


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Eh i guess I'll jump in on the bandwagon and say armours

low move, super low res, nonexistent speed.

though I've never really had a class perform bad for me, armours always lag behind 

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8 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Granted, I have not played FE5 (even then, I'm guessing it's more the Pugi than the class itself), but in every other game I've played and tried to used them in, they ended up getting benched due to them screwing me over more than they actually helped.

No, Fighters are just good in FE5. Orsin gets Pugi, but on his own he's statistically one of the biggest powerhouses in the game. Halvan, while not nearly as good as Orsin, probably would be mentioned a lot more as one of the better units in the game if he wasn't so colossally overshadowed by Orsin.

If you played FE8 and wondered why Fighters get Hero as their alternate promotion, FE5 Fighters are the first class in the franchise that actually promoted to what we see as "Heroes". FE4 had "Forrests", which were slightly beefier Swordmasters, but still not really how we see Heroes. Machyua being the exception, as she's the sole Swordfighter that promotes to Hero in that game.

I've done this breakdown before, but Barst is great in all of his incarnations, Cord manages to be pretty damn good in his appearances and can match Barst depending on the game, FE5 has broken Fighters, Geitz is really good, Boyd is good to great in both of his appearances, and Nolan is one of the few DB members worth a damn. I'd argue that even the worst fighters(Like Bord and Wade) are still usable. Iucharba might be the closest to unusable, and that's more due to how infantry units get screwed in FE4. He's still better than most foot-locked subs in that game and is still far from the worst unit in a sub run(Thought why you'd do a sub run and go for him and not Iuchar is... a question in and of itself).

I'd say a class with that many standouts really shouldn't be in consideration. Especially when Armor Knights exist, and the standouts in that class are a fraction of the standouts of the Fighter class. Off the top of my head... Oswin and Gatrie? FE10 Tauroneo? Outside of these 3, I'd say the rest of the armors in the series are decent at best, and borderline completely unusable at worst.

16 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Fighters best are in the following games: FE5, FE9, FE10, TS, BS, FE11, FE12, and FE14.

Should be noted that FE11/FE12 Warrior isn't all that good for stat caps though.

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Speaking of Tearring Saga and Berwick Saga, the Fighters there are essentially Axe wielding Myrmidons.

While FE doesn't have to go that route, the Fighter's focus on skill over speed should be noticeable. As it is, the Brigand line has way more speed then Fighter, while the Fighter line only has a negligible advantage in skill.

Too bad more fighters can't be like Boyd and Nolan.

As funny as it is to remember Kaga as somebody who hated axes and completely forgot about them at times, he got waaaaaay kinder to axers starting with FE5, and it seems like it continued in his post-5 games.

 

Edited by Slumber
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1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Exactly how well-liked is Gonzalez?  I'm a bit out of the loop, but from what I can tell his reception as a unit is mixed.  He's either loved for his high damage output (I'm in this camp) or hated for his awful hit rates in a game where axes are at maybe their second-worst.

Path A Gonzales is high tier, especially on hard mode. Path B Gonzales is agreed to be not be as good.

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Reclassing would just open another can of worms, so I don't count it. Adding pirates would do little to bolster their quality, honestly.

It does quite a bit, especially in the DS remakes where reclassing can be done at the drop of a hat. In the second DS remake, Pirates also have the highest speed growth out of the class B set.

Even in Awakening, Vaike does better declassed as a Barbarian/Berserker then he does in his default Fighter/Warrior line.

42 minutes ago, Slumber said:

As funny as it is to remember Kaga as somebody who hated axes and completely forgot about them at times, he got waaaaaay kinder to axers starting with FE5, and it seems like it continued in his post-5 games.

 

The Navarre archetype and best boss killer in Berwick Saga is a Fighter.

In Tearring Saga, while axes were good, they were somewhat rare though. It was really only the Fighter line that used them, which for referenced promoted to Warrior(a beefy swordmaster here), yet Samson the one got was one of the top 4 best units in the game.

Berwick Saga had comparatively more axe using classes. The pirate class even functioned like a beefy thief there.

It really does seem like Kaga overcompensated after realizing how terrible axes were in his first four games!

 

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3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Path A Gonzales is high tier, especially on hard mode. Path B Gonzales is agreed to be not be as good.

...

The Navarre archetype and best boss killer in Berwick Saga is a Fighter.

In Tearring Saga, while axes were good, they were somewhat rare though. It was really only the Fighter line that used them, which for referenced promoted to Warrior(a beefy swordmaster here), yet Samson the one got was one of the top 4 best units in the game.

Berwick Saga had comparatively more axe using classes. The pirate class even functioned like a beefy thief there.

It really does seem like Kaga overcompensated after realizing how terrible axes were in his first four games!

Yeah.  I hope you're taking Larum's route if you intend to use Gonzalez.  He doesn't seem to be worth the effort on Elffin's route unless you really want a Berserker in a hurry.

As for Kaga, it does make me very happy to know that he's started to give Axes better treatment.  Vestaria Saga has its own Bord and Cord duo by the name of Jean and Ashe; I wonder how good they are.

If only IS would follow his example and give axe infantry more respect!

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8 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Yeah.  I hope you're taking Larum's route if you intend to use Gonzalez.  He doesn't seem to be worth the effort on Elffin's route unless you really want a Berserker in a hurry.

As for Kaga, it does make me very happy to know that he's started to give Axes better treatment.  Vestaria Saga has its own Bord and Cord duo by the name of Jean and Ashe; I wonder how good they are.

If only IS would follow his example and give axe infantry more respect!

An interesting thing is in Berwick Saga is Fighters and Brigands/Pirates were given given separate roles. Fighters focusing on removing enemy units and promote to slayer, which is so similar to Berserker that fan translation outright calls by that name.

Brigands/Pirates are equal to a tier 2 class(Pirate promoted from Sailor in one of Kaga's notes), while good at fighting, their big draw is skills allowing them to steal items, find hidden items and hide themselves.

I've heard good things about them, but I've mostly heard good things about the Armor Knights of Vestaria, believe it or not! They have some killer skills that make their deployment worth it. Additionally defend maps are built to encourage the use of an Armor Knight.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

An interesting thing is in Berwick Saga is Fighters and Brigands/Pirates were given given separate roles. Fighters focusing on removing enemy units and promote to slayer, which is like Berserker, which the fan translation outright calls it. Brigands/Pirates are equal to a tier 2 class(Pirate promoted from Sailor in one of Kaga's notes), while good at fighting with high strength and HP, their big draw is skills allowing them to steal items, find hidden items and hide themselves.

I've heard good things about them, but I've mostly heard good things about the Armor Knights of Vestaria, believe it or not! They have some killer skills that make their deployment worth it. Additionally defend maps are built to encourage the use of an Armor Knight.

So basically, those Brigands and Pirates are more like Axe-wielding Thieves?  Interesting.  Very very interesting.

I might actually give Vestaria Saga a try once it gets translated.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai
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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

As funny as it is to remember Kaga as somebody who hated axes and completely forgot about them at times, he got waaaaaay kinder to axers starting with FE5, and it seems like it continued in his post-5 games.

What other games besides Vestaria Saga did he make?

40 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It does quite a bit, especially in the DS remakes where reclassing can be done at the drop of a hat. In the second DS remake, Pirates also have the highest speed growth out of the class B set.

Even in Awakening, Vaike does better declassed as a Barbarian/Berserker then he does in his default Fighter/Warrior line.

I could argue the same for Knights, considering that evade got nerfed into the ground in the DS games.

Only slightly, and it comes at the price of being fodder for sword users.

43 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Path A Gonzales is high tier, especially on hard mode. Path B Gonzales is agreed to be not be as good.

I would argue otherwise.

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42 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

So basically, those Brigands and Pirates are more like Axe-wielding Thieves?  Interesting.  Very very interesting.

I might actually give Vestaria Saga a try once it gets translated.

Yup, though thieves have a slightly more reliable steal command that pirates/Brigands can't do.

All LPers I've talked to prefer the playable Pirate over the two thief units, saying he's like a thief who can also hold his own. Their stats have good strength, HP, and Speed, though they have little defense. Brigands aren't playable, though the enemy ones have similar stats+skills to the playable pirate.

Interesting bit of trivia is Armored Knights in Tearring Saga used swords, used axes in Berwick Saga and they're back to Lances in Vestaria.

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

What other games besides Vestaria Saga did he make?

Tearring Saga and Berwick Saga.

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I could argue the same for Knights, considering that evade got nerfed into the ground in the DS games.

Only slightly, and it comes at the price of being fodder for sword users.

Knights are better then they usually are in the DS games, they are good class to be in for leveling and certain maps. Unlike Berserker, they aren't a good final class though.

Sword using enemies aren't common in the DS remakes. 

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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14 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Sword using enemies aren't common in the DS remakes. 

He was talking about Vaike in Awakening.

Also, I'd like to add healers to my earlier post, seeing as they are a huge pain in the arse to train up.

Edited by NinjaMonkey
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14 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Sword using enemies aren't common in the DS remakes. 

I was talking about Awakening there - Awakening isn't lancespam land like FE7 and SD were. Also, the Berserker design in Awakening is the lowest of the low aesthetics wise. Ugh.

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Bow Armors from FE4 and 5. I know they aren't playable but seriously, they are armored units locked to bows that don't have pursuit or any skills at all for that matter. You can't get any worse than that.

Edited by CatManThree
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19 minutes ago, CatManThree said:

Bow Armors from FE4 and 5. I know they aren't playable but seriously, they are armored units locked to bows that don't have pursuit or any skills at all for that matter. You can't get any worse than that.

It's funny.  I normally have a huge soft spot for classes that are either enemy-only or rarely playable compared to others (one of the reasons I love Berserkers so much).

But I just cannot get behind Bow-wielding armors.  (I would refer to them as Bow Knights based on the current naming conventions seen in Heroes, but that would make things confusing.)  Walking around in heavy armor and wielding a bow at the same time sounds incredibly awkward and frankly kind of stupid.  Which is also why I'm not a huge fan of DS-era Generals.

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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I was talking about Awakening there - Awakening isn't lancespam land like FE7 and SD were. Also, the Berserker design in Awakening is the lowest of the low aesthetics wise. Ugh.

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Playable Berserkers in Awakening, outside of Basilio, look like shit, yes. Their shoulder armor is too big for them.

2 hours ago, CatManThree said:

Bow Armors from FE4 and 5. I know they aren't playable but seriously, they are armored units locked to bows that don't have pursuit or any skills at all for that matter. You can't get any worse than that.

Tearring Saga and FE1 had their version of Shooters, which were pretty close to Bow Armors though. Both were pretty bad.

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On 4/29/2018 at 5:25 PM, Slumber said:

I've done this breakdown before, but Barst is great in all of his incarnations, Cord manages to be pretty damn good in his appearances and can match Barst depending on the game, FE5 has broken Fighters, Geitz is really good, Boyd is good to great in both of his appearances, and Nolan is one of the few DB members worth a damn. I'd argue that even the worst fighters(Like Bord and Wade) are still usable. Iucharba might be the closest to unusable, and that's more due to how infantry units get screwed in FE4. He's still better than most foot-locked subs in that game and is still far from the worst unit in a sub run(Thought why you'd do a sub run and go for him and not Iuchar is... a question in and of itself).

I'd say a class with that many standouts really shouldn't be in consideration. Especially when Armor Knights exist, and the standouts in that class are a fraction of the standouts of the Fighter class. Off the top of my head... Oswin and Gatrie? FE10 Tauroneo? Outside of these 3, I'd say the rest of the armors in the series are decent at best, and borderline completely unusable at worst.

I would disagree, honestly - fighters tend to have low speed AND low defenses. That is an awful combination, to be sure. Which isn't helped by their issues with hitting stuff... And I'd say Wade comes really close to being unusable. Being stuck with low speed, low defenses, and inaccurate weaponry does that to you. I would sooner say RD Boyd is mediocre, at least without a transfer boost (which requires maxing him out in a completely different game) or getting lucky with his speed growth, too. And the less I have to say about Rinkah, Charlotte and Arthur, the better. As for Cord, he might be able to surpass Barst, but I'd say that starting with E axes hurts him in the remakes.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Bishop.

Yeah, their staff rank cap is increased, but their combat is so shit outside of FE8 monsters that they're just glorified staff bots. I'm mainly talking GBA Bishops here.

Serra has 2 base with 50% growth, pretty bad, not unusable.

Renault has 12 base with 40% growth. Not bad, but he comes in near the end of FE7. 

Yoder comes in with 19 base, but can't grow since he's level 20 promoted.

Saul has 4 base and 40% growth. That's pretty bad.

Ellen has 1 magic base and 50% growth.

Natasha has 2 base and 60% growth.

A lot of these are really bad growths for combat, and relegates most, if not all of these characters to staffbot.

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  • 1 month later...

Sword-Locked Lords are pretty fucking bad unless your name is Sigurd, and arguably Ike. Eliwood is too Average, Roy is my boy, and I have shit genes, Lyn sucks, Marth is in Lance hell games, Chrom does better considering he can promote, and Great Lord/Paladin use Swords and Lances, which means he has two range from around mid game or so depending on how much exp you give him. I forget Eirika existed as I’m writing this and she’s like Lyn, but at least she gets a horse. Still not that good though.

But uh, if this was just for the main classes, then Archer/Sniper. Bows are not too good in most Fire Emblem games cause 2-3 range only is pretty shit. Knight would be here but Their GBA animations are way better than the Bowmen.

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On 5/7/2018 at 3:19 PM, FootwaySublong said:

Bishop.

Yeah, their staff rank cap is increased, but their combat is so shit outside of FE8 monsters that they're just glorified staff bots. I'm mainly talking GBA Bishops here.

Serra has 2 base with 50% growth, pretty bad, not unusable.

Renault has 12 base with 40% growth. Not bad, but he comes in near the end of FE7. 

Yoder comes in with 19 base, but can't grow since he's level 20 promoted.

Saul has 4 base and 40% growth. That's pretty bad.

Ellen has 1 magic base and 50% growth.

Natasha has 2 base and 60% growth.

A lot of these are really bad growths for combat, and relegates most, if not all of these characters to staffbot.

You would really consider Bishop worse than Warrior, which tends to be rather slow? Or Sniper, which has no Enemy Phase when Enemy Phase is when most of the action happens?

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3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You would really consider Bishop worse than Warrior, which tends to be rather slow? Or Sniper, which has no Enemy Phase when Enemy Phase is when most of the action happens?

eh, i wanted to be unique and say something different. also warrior has really not a whole lot wrong with it. it's mediocre, not worst by a long shot

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46 minutes ago, FootwaySublong said:

eh, i wanted to be unique and say something different. also warrior has really not a whole lot wrong with it. it's mediocre, not worst by a long shot

Saying that Warrior doesn't have a lot wrong with it is sorely mistaken, given that said class has had a lot of bad units...

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33 minutes ago, FootwaySublong said:

and so does bishop. renault and yoder are the only good ones tbh

I call BS when Renault is hot garbage (if you think 12 Mag at level 16 is good, you must have REALLY low standards for being good), and Yoder is more notable for coming with the S rank staff.

Quote

bad unit doesn't equal bad class

I agree that bad unit might not go hand-in-hand with bad class, but fighters and warriors tend to have garbage stats everywhere but Strength and HP. Low speed and low defenses are a losing combination when it comes to survivability, and their low skill along with their weapon makes them a crapshoot on the battlefield.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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honestly, renault is great as a staff bot, and even with 12 magic that's still good for physic and fortify. he isn't as good as pent with both of those, but really, who is? A staves is still fantastic, and even though he's not around for a while, he can still do some great work. 12 magic isn't unusable. 22 hp with physic or fortify is great, any staff user is a good staff user.

yoder is also great as a staff bot , as you mentioned. this reinforces my point of most bishops being bad, as they end up being slightly better staff bots. honestly, both of them are better than priests and clerics, as the latter need to use a guiding ring which could go to another staff user like priscilla or clarine, who are mounted, or possibly a mage.

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29 minutes ago, FootwaySublong said:

honestly, renault is great as a staff bot, and even with 12 magic that's still good for physic and fortify. he isn't as good as pent with both of those, but really, who is? A staves is still fantastic, and even though he's not around for a while, he can still do some great work. 12 magic isn't unusable. 22 hp with physic or fortify is great, any staff user is a good staff user.

yoder is also great as a staff bot , as you mentioned. this reinforces my point of most bishops being bad, as they end up being slightly better staff bots. honestly, both of them are better than priests and clerics, as the latter need to use a guiding ring which could go to another staff user like priscilla or clarine, who are mounted, or possibly a mage.

You must be crazy if you think that's "great" at that stage in the game when (1) whatever mages I raised would most likely have surpassed that by the time he even becomes relevant, and (2) this is the same game that gives me Athos in the last chapter, which Renault has the misfortune of joining right before. Not to mention that his 12 magic translates to a lousy 6 space range with Physic and Fortify... and why should I bother with Renault when literally every other magic user outclasses him??? About the only reason to do so is if I let all my other mages die, and even then, there's still Athos.

To Yoder's credit, he at least comes with a respectable magic stat, which is more than can be said for Renault. His case is helped by ranged staves having a range of 1-Mag. The issue is, though, that FE6 is a game where a staff user is pretty much mandatory unless you want to suffer. So trying to defend Yoder, I can understand, but trying to defend Renault as a good unit is objectively wrong. FYI, I consider Guiding Rings better used on healers than on mages.

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On 4/29/2018 at 3:59 PM, Rose482 said:

I will have to say Armour Knights, i always find them so hard to use, getting them anywhere could take forever, and even when you do, giving them kills is also not the easiest thing, i almost never use them.....the only time i used one that i can think of is Meg, and that just becasue i wanted to try and use her and see for myself how good/bad she can be 0_0 

 

Armor Knights have wayyyyy too many weaknesses.

They have poor movement, so it takes them some time to get anywhere and they can’t escape powerful enemies (Which makes them terrible for maps with time limits or thieves)

But they can defend a point, right? Well, their high defense is compromised by crap resistance, poor speed, and the existence of the Armorslayer and Hammer.

They should at least have normal infantry movement, IMO.

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