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Worst class in the series?


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Just now, Garlyle said:

I'm not thinking highly of Cavaliers/Paladins either, but they are better than you think. The early Paladins in every game (Jeigen) is either an exp sponge, OR a lifesaver. In Binding Blade, Lance is actually the Cavalier who always doubles instead of getting doubled. Their movement is only highly damaged by desert maps, and they cannot climb mountains. Percival is considered to be the best unit in FE6.

Not my favourites, but they have value.

I know. I am an avid fan of Percival myself. The guy single handedly saved my FE6 run from going down the drain and I had some good experiences with Frederick in Awakening, and Mathilda, Randal and Zeke in Echoes as well, but that's just a few examples out of many that - sadly - utterly failed me. Adding to this is the fact that all I ever see and hear from people is "Cavaliers are the best units EVAR!!!" and while I respect their opinion, I strangely fail to see what makes them "the best units EVAR!1!oneone!!1"
As for the Jeigans / Jagens: Despite every argument made in favour of early pre-promotes, I still tend to ignore them for the most part, because I prefer to raise my units myself. It's just more satisfying and fun for me. I have nothing against pre-promotes that come in later when my units are already promoted themselves, though, like the aforementioned Percival, Say'ri or even someone like Jeorge or Minerva.
It's kinda the same reason I didn't really like using Legendary Pokémon that much.

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@Slumber Rolf being insanely good is a bold claim. He's good if trained, but the key there is if trained. He's really weak compared to his comrades and even the enemies at that point. Boyd's not great either, but he's got hammering going for him and does have a somewhat better start. Nolan, I'd put so far above Rolf though. He's a great help in the early DB chapters and actually has pretty decent staying power. Shinon I can agree on wholeheartedly though.

@DragonFlames I think you might've just had some insane bad luck. The only slowish cavs I can think of off-hand are Lowen, Roshea, Vyland, Noah, and Treck. The rest from all my experience have enough speed that they can avoid doubles fairly decently. Then again, I might be biased since they're my favorite class.

As everyone has said, I've got to go with knights. The class itself is garbage and the good characters, like Oswin and Gatrie, are really more good in spite of their class rather than because of it.

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On 3/29/2018 at 7:52 AM, DragonFlames said:

Fighters are strong. That's it. They're incredibly inaccurate, because their Skill stats suck, their usually high HP does nothing to salvage their horrid bulk both physically and magically, they're prone to get crit due to atrocious luck and to top it all off, there is a much better axe using class available from FE10 onwards: the Wyvern Rider. Yeah no, if you're a Fighter, you're benched. End of discussion.

Ditto. Also, I'd like to give a shout-out to Oni Savage for being a missed opportunity on all levels. Oni Chieftain is a hybrid class, and is thus plagued by the fact that most units can only use one of its weapons well. Blacksmith is an alternate Hero with a focus on axes... which might not be too bad. Even Oni Savage itself felt underwhelming. It does not help that the class skills are mostly scattershot - Seal Resistance is borderline useless, Shove is meh, Death Blow is decent but not amazing, Counter requires low defense to be effective, Salvage Blow might be useful, but it only yields Iron weapons, and Lancebreaker is good, but limited in usability on account of being a level 15 skill. Nor does the poor distribution - only 6 units get it without seal shenanigans, and the only one of those who starts in the class is rather awful.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Ditto. Also, I'd like to give a shout-out to Oni Savage for being a missed opportunity on all levels. Oni Chieftain is a hybrid class, and is thus plagued by the fact that most units can only use one of its weapons well. Blacksmith is an alternate Hero with a focus on axes... which might not be too bad. Even Oni Savage itself felt underwhelming. It does not help that the class skills are mostly scattershot - Seal Resistance is borderline useless, Shove is meh, Death Blow is decent but not amazing, Counter requires low defense to be effective, Salvage Blow might be useful, but it only yields Iron weapons, and Lancebreaker is good, but limited in usability on account of being a level 15 skill. Nor does the poor distribution - only 6 units get it without seal shenanigans, and the only one of those who starts in the class is rather awful.

 It doesn’t help that the only default Oni Savage in Birthright, Rinkah, has terrible strength growths. Sakura has better strength then she does.

 

Actually, why does Birthright lack axe users? The only units that can use axes in their base classes are Scarlet and Rinkah. Maybe we should have met more Oni Savages. It could be some world building too, as we don’t see the Flame Tribe unlike its counterparts. 

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I’m on the Archer/Knight short bus.  If I blindly pop open any game and see a character who is one of those classes, my first inclination is to bench.

Archers are bad because IS loves their shota archer who’s bad at everything archetype.  They have no attack or counter at 1 range, are bowlocked, and generally have unimpressive base stats because IS thinks most archers should either be trainees or underwhelming pre-promotes.  Echoes/Gaiden and Fates brought in decent archers or gave them more utility so this is firmly an IS can’t archer issue.

Knights are in a similar situation, they are severely gimped and don’t have much to make up for it.  They are usually weaponlocked, slow, and in spite of having good def, usually have terrible resistance so at a certain point in the game - they’ll stop doing what they were designed for.  Usually they end up casualties of map design or enemy composition.

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21 minutes ago, CyberController said:

Actually, why does Birthright lack axe users? The only units that can use axes in their base classes are Scarlet and Rinkah. Maybe we should have met more Oni Savages. It could be some world building too, as we don’t see the Flame Tribe unlike its counterparts. 

Silly!  Don't you know Axes are evil according to Fire Emblem?  Why else would they get (debatably) better representation in Conquest, where you play as the bad guys?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Like most people have said: armoured units.

Despite their superior defence, there's nothing more to them than that. Low movement, atrocious resistance and speed makes them an absolute pain to use. I end up using them for a such a short amount of time and it's a shame. 

 

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On 3/26/2018 at 12:12 PM, CyberController said:

Aesthetics, stats and usability all factor.

 

I don’t like Armors/Knights. Their low movement prevent them from reliably fighting at the front lines, and they have poor speed as well.

Whats unfortunate is occasionally games introduce buffs to the Knight/General class, only for the subsequent game to permanently do away with this buff. 

Heck, Shadows of Valentia, remake of Gaiden for NES, actually managed to make Generals(Barons here) worse then the original! 

7 minutes ago, Pandoria said:

Like most people have said: armoured units.

Despite their superior defence, there's nothing more to them than that. Low movement, atrocious resistance and speed makes them an absolute pain to use. I end up using them for a such a short amount of time and it's a shame. 

 

Anyone else remember good resistance Generals?

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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5 minutes ago, Pandoria said:

Like most people have said: armoured units.

Despite their superior defence, there's nothing more to them than that. Low movement, atrocious resistance and speed makes them an absolute pain to use. I end up using them for a such a short amount of time and it's a shame. 

 

I can't deny Armor Knights being the worst for the most part, then again, for similar reasons, thieves are the worst too, outside of using them to get in a door or a chest, they have low Str and Def for the most part, so they normally aren't killing or barely scratching an opponent, and they don't always get a promote in games.

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8 minutes ago, Pandoria said:

Like most people have said: armoured units.

Despite their superior defence, there's nothing more to them than that. Low movement, atrocious resistance and speed makes them an absolute pain to use. I end up using them for a such a short amount of time and it's a shame. 

 

Well, Kellam and Effie are decent.

 

But I normally promote them to Great Knight to improve their movement.

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2 minutes ago, CyberController said:

Well, Kellam and Effie are decent.

 

But I normally promote them to Great Knight to improve their movement.

Kellam is terrible and Awakening General is one of the worst incarnations of the class. It doesn't even look good.

Effie is great, but due to her stat spread focusing on speed and offense, she is ultimately better in other classes.

3DS era Great Knight need a nerf, IMO.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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2 minutes ago, CyberController said:

Well, Kellam and Effie are decent.

 

But I normally promote them to Great Knight to improve their movement.

I love the Invisible Wall and the Bottomless Food Hole as well, but yeah, always put them on the horse as well, because Def is even better if its faster.

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1 minute ago, MyBoyHector said:

I love the Invisible Wall and the Bottomless Food Hole as well, but yeah, always put them on the horse as well, because Def is even better if its faster.

Kellam is bad, but Effie is good. However her high speed cap means she's better outside of the Armored line,.

Funny how Hector, one of the best Lords in the series, is an Armor.

Were any of you aware that the Armor in Vestaria Saga has a skill giving significantly increased defense and resistance to adjacent units? This certainly helped the class's position on the tier list for that game.

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1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kellam is bad, but Effie is good. However her high speed cap means she's better outside of the Armored line,.

Funny how Hector, one of the best Lords in the series, is an Armor.

Were any of you aware that the Armor in Vestaria Saga has a skill giving significantly increased defense and resistance to adjacent units? This certainly helped the class's position on the tier list for that game.

Didn't say Kellam wasn't bad, I just like him as a character and use him anyways. As for Hector, well considering Lyn is a Swordmaster basically, and Eliwood is a Caviller, Hector being the Armor Lord only makes sense. 

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2 minutes ago, MyBoyHector said:

Didn't say Kellam wasn't bad, I just like him as a character and use him anyways. As for Hector, well considering Lyn is a Swordmaster basically, and Eliwood is a Caviller, Hector being the Armor Lord only makes sense. 

True, I just mean its notable that Hector is good and an Armored unit. Though I suppose his tier 1 class starting off with infantry movement and only lagging behind after promotion helps.

Funnily enough Axe General of RD has similar stat caps and the same weapon spread as Hector.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

True, I just mean its notable that Hector is good and an Armored unit. Though I suppose his tier 1 class starting off with infantry movement and only lagging behind after promotion helps.

Funnily enough Axe General of RD has similar stat caps and the same weapon spread as Hector.

What makes Hector good in general is that he isn't a copy and paste Lord. Rather then go down the stigma of being a bunch of Sword wielders, he uses Axes instead, which is what a lot of people like about him. After all, there are only so many times using a Lord who use swords is playable before getting boring (Marth, Alm, Sigurd, etc). At the same time Ephraim is also good because he uses Spears and breaks Lord Traditions (Though Ephraim's problems are more his story and personality).

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Just now, MyBoyHector said:

What makes Hector good in general is that he isn't a copy and paste Lord. Rather then go down the stigma of being a bunch of Sword wielders, he uses Axes instead, which is what a lot of people like about him. After all, there are only so many times using a Lord who use swords is playable before getting boring (Marth, Alm, Sigurd, etc). At the same time Ephraim is also good because he uses Spears and breaks Lord Traditions (Though Ephraim's problems are more his story and personality).

I definitely agree that Hector is 100% unique among lords for being an Armored Slow and Strong axe user. One of the most obvious terrible decisions of Fire Emblem Warriors was leaving him out.

What I mean is tier-wise, Hector, is an Armor that is good tier.

I'm just saying perhaps the series could replicate what made Hector a good unit for later Armored units.

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For the most part rather than buffing the Armor Knight, I think the Def of Great Knights and Paladins should come down a margin so that the Def of an Armor knight is more significant that makes it worth the trade off of speed and movement to take them.

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1 hour ago, MyBoyHector said:

I can't deny Armor Knights being the worst for the most part, then again, for similar reasons, thieves are the worst too, outside of using them to get in a door or a chest, they have low Str and Def for the most part, so they normally aren't killing or barely scratching an opponent, and they don't always get a promote in games.

Thieves, as utility units, get graded on a curve. They usually suck in combat, but depending on the game, Thieves can be amazing utility units. 

Being able to steal items and weapons off of an enemy is something no other class can do. 

Yes, modern Thieves suck, since they've been downgraded to just being living door and chest keys, but in quite a few games they're pretty damn good. 

Edited by Slumber
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4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Thieves, as utility units, get graded on a curve. They usually suck in combat, but depending on the game, Thieves can be amazing utility units. 

Being able to steal items and weapons off of an enemy(Equipped ones at that) is something no other class can do. 

Yes, modern Thieves suck, since they've been downgraded to just being living door and chest keys, but in quite a few games they're pretty damn good. 

I find the best thieves in the series to be the ones that can steal weapons.

23 minutes ago, MyBoyHector said:

For the most part rather than buffing the Armor Knight, I think the Def of Great Knights and Paladins should come down a margin so that the Def of an Armor knight is more significant that makes it worth the trade off of speed and movement to take them.

That would definitely help. The defense of the Armored units has to be significant to make up for the movement loss.

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17 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Thieves, as utility units, get graded on a curve. They usually suck in combat, but depending on the game, Thieves can be amazing utility units. 

Being able to steal items and weapons off of an enemy(Equipped ones at that) is something no other class can do. 

Yes, modern Thieves suck, since they've been downgraded to just being living door and chest keys, but in quite a few games they're pretty damn good. 

Sorta wish they take a little trip back to FE4 Thieves where if they attack a unit for the first time, they steal Gold, doesn't have to be a great deal,  just something that randomly helps while you wait or have finished looting a map.

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27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I find the best thieves in the series to be the ones that can steal weapons.

I do, too. It really gives them an actual, prominent role that plays pretty consistently through the game(Depending on the game again). Ones that can just steal items or gold... It's nice and still helpful, but 90% of the time they'd still get benched if there wasn't an item of interest to steal or you didn't need more gold. 

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11 hours ago, MyBoyHector said:

I can't deny Armor Knights being the worst for the most part, then again, for similar reasons, thieves are the worst too, outside of using them to get in a door or a chest, they have low Str and Def for the most part, so they normally aren't killing or barely scratching an opponent, and they don't always get a promote in games.

Bold: I dunno... I would still say they're better than axe infantry in general, which tend to lack in most stats not named HP and Strength.

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  • 2 weeks later...

On the topic of armoured units, their "superior" Defence usually gets jeopardized by them getting doubled by nearly everything, especially in the older games where stat differences weren't as vast as in Awakening, Fates or Echoes, so anything with Strength on the level of, say, a Cavalier is more than likely to deal dangerous amounts of damage to your Armour Knight and may Duma help you if you accidentally put them in magic range...
And with effective weaponry getting more and more prevalent in recent games and on higher difficulties, their usability gets further and further compromised to the point of them being more liability than asset.

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