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NekoKnight

Celica: The Selfishness Born of Selflessness

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It wasn't an addition to Shadows of Valentia. Alm and Celica were always royal heirs.

I know that, I was referring to things like Fernand and the Deliverance class dispute. Royalty is not quite the same as aristocracy, Ming Dynasty China had a royal family, but no nobility from what I hear. And Peter the Great of Russia tried to make noble titles inheritable only at a certain high level and beyond, the idea being you encouraged lower nobles to work meritocratically higher to earn those inheritable titles I think.

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15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I know that, I was referring to things like Fernand and the Deliverance class dispute. Royalty is not quite the same as aristocracy, Ming Dynasty China had a royal family, but no nobility from what I hear. And Peter the Great of Russia tried to make noble titles inheritable only at a certain high level and beyond, the idea being you encouraged lower nobles to work meritocratically higher to earn those inheritable titles I think.

Ah. Gotcha. In that case, yes, I do think it was an addition in the remake. I can't recall any reference to any other characters being noble in the original game. Except the Baron class of course, but I doubt one can take that as evidence given how inaccurate Fire Emblem is with class names (and any old Soldier can become a Baron).

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10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Elincia not fighting was because she was the sole survivor of the Crimean royal family left, if she dies, what does Crimea have to rally justly around against Daein? Ike is a disposable mercenary who can be replaced eventually with no such issue. 

The civil war aspect was about Renning. Renning was declared heir to Crimea by Ramon when he would never have a child (and Renning has no children nor even a wife it seems- why is the future of Crimea's royal family so barren?), and then Elincia was born later. The civil war would have been whether the presently declared heir or the heir by inheritance traditions (assuming they would favor a daughter of a ruling king over his brother), deserved the Crimean throne. Ramon didn't either have the power to quash the feuding it'd create, or had no stomach for the internal chaos in the first place. Otherwise if he had a strong hand, he could have changed the inheritance to Elincia upon revealing her and then silence the opposition to the change, with no real issue.

I can't say much of the SoV discussion at hand, but why did Rigel have an aristocracy? A power-based/meritocratic society shouldn't have a hereditary inheritable nobility. Although should Zofia have one either if Mila seems egalitarian? Unless she supported a Medieval/Early Modern European corporate society, as in "Everyone has a place, and everyone in their place", breaking from your place, a good place in a glorious happy system of places, brings chaos and ruin. Does hereditary aristocracy have a place in either Rigel/Duma or Zofia/Mila? Or was this move an addition of SoV not in the original game that was not necessary?

As far as Celica is aware for most of the plot, she's the only surviving member of the Zofian royal family. It's not so much between her and a member of her extended family, but between her and Desaix's faction (or some other non-royal vying for leadership, even if not necessarily to be, strictly speaking, a monarch).

I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about "why" in regards to the power structure in this game (or most others), as even when there are details and descriptions, the writers aren't exactly political scientists. It's worth noting, however, that a central part of any power structure is its self-preservation, and the people in charge are going to do whatever they have to do to stay in charge, even if they have to act hypocritically. I don't think Rigel is (or meant to be) a meritocracy, nor Zofia egalitarian; they have the same power structures, but differing cultures/attitudes.

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On 3/30/2018 at 12:05 AM, Icelerate said:

I'm pretty sure this analysis of her character wasn't to prove that she's well-written, quite the opposite. 

OT: I think you're confusing selfishness with stubbornness. The reason why Celica doesn't listen to her friends and Alm isn't because she's selfish, but because she believes her way is right and even if she pisses everyone off, she's doing it for what she perceives to be the greater good. Pretty sure selflessness is Celica's defining character trait so saying its a facade seems rather biased.

The thread wasn't to say she was poorly written (the main flaws with Celica's writing are often discussed and acknowledged), I wanted to examine what her actions say about her character. Stubbornness and selfishness don't need to be mutually exclusive. Selflessness is indeed a defining element of Celica's character, but as my analysis points out, a lot of the things she does are out of her own interests over that of the many. She wants Alm to stop fighting, even though Zofia needs a leader and she herself refuses to step up. Her unwillingness to compromise isn't merely stubbornness, it's outright ignoring what most people want so she can do things her own way. Celica is a hypocrite, even if she doesn't realize it.

On 3/28/2018 at 6:18 PM, DragonFlames said:

I really don't see why people consider that badly written. Every single action of Celica's during the story is justifiable by what the world-building shows you.

Her drive is understandable but her choices kind of strain belief at times, as though the game made her act as she did to forward the plot more than being a natural result of her character. Things like her fight with Alm, where Alm is the calm, rational one and Celica is hysterical and unreasonable, and her trusting Jedah, don't reflect well on her character.

Edited by NekoKnight

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4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Her drive is understandable but her choices kind of strain belief at times, as though the game made her act as she did to forward the plot more than being a natural result of her character. Things like her fight with Alm, where Alm is the calm, rational one and Celica is hysterical and unreasonable, and her trusting Jedah, don't reflect well on her character.

While I personally disagree,  I can definitely see that. Thank you for explaining!

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8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The thread wasn't to say she was poorly written (the main flaws with Celica's writing are often discussed and acknowledged), I wanted to examine what her actions say about her character. Stubbornness and selfishness don't need to be mutually exclusive. Selflessness is indeed a defining element of Celica's character, but as my analysis points out, a lot of the things she does are out of her own interests over that of the many. She wants Alm to stop fighting, even though Zofia needs a leader and she herself refuses to step up. Her unwillingness to compromise isn't merely stubbornness, it's outright ignoring what most people want so she can do things her own way. Celica is a hypocrite, even if she doesn't realize it.

Her drive is understandable but her choices kind of strain belief at times, as though the game made her act as she did to forward the plot more than being a natural result of her character. Things like her fight with Alm, where Alm is the calm, rational one and Celica is hysterical and unreasonable, and her trusting Jedah, don't reflect well on her character.

I thought you wanted to talk about her being poorly written because you've expressed discontent with the writing in this game. I don't see how her ignoring other people's wants makes her a hypocrite but then again my memory on the plot is pretty hazy because I've only watched an LP of this game and can't be bothered to read the script on SF. 

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5 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I thought you wanted to talk about her being poorly written because you've expressed discontent with the writing in this game. I don't see how her ignoring other people's wants makes her a hypocrite but then again my memory on the plot is pretty hazy because I've only watched an LP of this game and can't be bothered to read the script on SF. 

She accuses Alm of fighting when he doesn't have to, in contrast to Celica herself who fights pirates and brigands even though it isn't necessary. She gives Alm flak for leading the Deliverance, saying it's not his responsibility, even though Alm only got that job because Celica rejected her responsibility to lead. 

Ignoring the wishes of others is an example of her selfishness. 

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