We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Bluedoom]

I'd rather not claim because it makes me functionally vanilla.

[Bluedoom]

My Junko case isn't just his vote though. Upon kirsche's posts after the vote Junko still signs kirsche off as scum without reading his defence and insight of other players; he types a paragraph on eclipse where he is p waffly but doesn't go anywhere with his eclipse read; ditto with weapons, his opinions don't go anywhere.  Also #Noego but his read on me sucks; Junko is tunneling on kirsche because his justification for his vote on kirsche each time he appears ignores the other things that kirsche does, I'm not making that shit up. It doesn't matter that you state things about eclipse if it doesn't really inform you or lead you to any conclusion, you never voted based off of that intuition there.

[Bluedoom]

Actually I'll claim because people will waste their investigative roles on me.

I'm a Self Watcher Delayer. Yeah, thanks a lot guys.

[Iris]

Day 1.SB Never Does the Votals, TY
athena_57 (5): Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Shinori, Bartozio, eclipse
Bartozio (3): Fenrir, Jaybee, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Junk (3): Zkirsche, Magnificence Incarnate, Refa
Magnificence Incarnate (3): Walrein, vi-astra, BBM
zeus_112 (2): Bibbon, Fable
Jaybee (1): Nightmare
Zkirsche (1): Junk
Shinori (1): Elieson
Bibbon (1): zeus_112
Fable (1): Eurykins
Nightmare (1): athena57

Not Voting: Eärendil

You have ~4.25 hours left in the day. With 22 alive, it takes 8 to lynch and 15 to hammer.

Also looking for more interested subs, DM me, thanks!

Edited April 12, 2018 by Iris

[Bluedoom]

Well I guess I should explain the delay part: any action on me including the scum kill gets delayed by a phase.

[Snike]

I'm here catching up but don't expect a mega wall; I have work to do so I'm not going to spend all my time on mafuia today.

Votals should have my fellow fenrir instead of anime;

Ping me here for fast responses if you want stuff brought up.

[Bluedoom]

My character is JB btw.

 

Hnnng I'm not gonna lie I'm having a bad game but I'm not feeling most of these wagons honestly.

[Zkirsche]

Bart's Athena vote makes me much more unhappy with him, it's a graspy vote made on a big counterwagon (lots of pressure building against Athena the past 24 hours). Criticising someone for their play doesn't mean you find them scummy. Zeus' actions were very anti-town but that doesn't mean I'm scumreading him. His Bibbon stuff is thrown on there, we're talking about one or two lines from Bibbon and while I disagree with Bibbon on Zeus being manipulative I think the comment is made more out of frustration (as is Fable's case on Zeus) than logical thinking and that isn't scummy. I'd almost argue it's townie tbh, scum are much more likely to enjoy Zeus' posts and kinda do what eclipse has done. Don't vig Zeus please guys.

I'm only around for the next 90 minutes. Can Junko wagon happen? @eclipse @BBM @Zeus @Bartozio @anyone else not voting Junko.

I'd probably vote Bart over Athena right now but I keep flip flopping on Athena, Athena should claim and state their reads. Would like a more general reads spectrum from Bart too.

Marth's roleclaim is throwing me through a loop because it's an awful role, almost no town benefit, but it kinda sucks as a scumclaim? He could be hiding something but it's very provable as a role as well.

[Refa]

3 minutes ago, Zkirsche said:

Marth's roleclaim is throwing me through a loop because it's an awful role, almost no town benefit, but it kinda sucks as a scumclaim? He could be hiding something but it's very provable as a role as well.

Town benefit is that if he sees an action delayed on him there are no kills, he probably got killed.  Also I'm assuming if the killer gets lynched, it's basically a no kill night.  It's useless now, though...It has more scum benefit but it's almost...busted?  as scum.  It basically makes him immune to any town roles but also aware of which ones are targeting him.  I think it's town.  Agreed about Barthena needing to post more.

Also don't vig N1 period.

[Snike]

i'm typing an argument to athena's 21 post rn but is there actually that much of a sentiment for a junko turbo? I thought he was ok when I read last night; have not thoroughly read these few pages

[Snike]

This is more a argument listpost than anything bc I cba'd to quote everything

Athenapost page 21:

-You can't crack down on someone making jokeposts

-So then why not let the other members of the thread do that instead? I understand you want him to contribute but what you did was essentially pad the thread.

@Quoteblock bit I explained what I missed, and I specifically said follow the links. You're right in that it appears misleading but I'm directing people to context in that same post. The tldr is that sf software sucks.

I am aware of that point, and I am not disagreeing.

There's indecisiveness and there's refusal to provide a read; you're calling satsuma no content when they're evidently trying to adjust to the site.

If we're talking defense you're doing the same thing here; why should I give you credit?

I mean people did comment about satsuma, and no one was biting, so moving the vote would be an ok play there to add more pressure. What I was more getting at is why didn't you say more on your change of opinion?

Why is it ok when zeus doesn't content, later in the game, but not ok when satsuma doesn't within the first 5-6 pages?

- ;/ So why say anything? I'm going to disagree with @eclipse here because I think that is suspect bc it's a lowkey flame and then no follow-up to apologise or update a read once OP JB delivered.

-I did point to the jb interaction, so you could've mentioned that.

The bit at the end is quote mined; read what I said just underneath it in actual post

Actually, here's the stuff

This is what you quoted:

12 hours ago, Snike said:

I mean yes that post is the instigator  but he had some stuff p12 and never really evolved his scumreads in between the two posts. He also doesn't bring up a notable spat and instead relegates the two individuals as null/scum when he was definitely backing athena previously.

 

here is what I said on bart:

12 hours ago, Snike said:

I mean yes that post is the instigator  but he had some stuff p12 and never really evolved his scumreads in between the two posts. He also doesn't bring up a notable spat and instead relegates the two individuals as null/scum when he was definitely backing athena previously.

I think my saying  that the scumreads didn't really evolve is a little harsh but like there's more to say about the argument than what he did IMO, especially since he had recapped up to p9.

I can understand why my first line seems contradictory but if I can clarify; I'm not saying that they didn't change but that their progression was stagnant.

The second line is important to the point I was trying to make, so cutting it is misleading.

 -Tunneling != focusing majority of a wagon on something. I've had other reads pretty clearly, like the Bartozio thing I mentioned.

cutting post here so everything else I can write altogether

 

 

[Jaybee]

I was fine with Marth's overall Junko case and I didn't really see what threw other people off so much, and I had no issues with the Zeus/Junko vote. But what I really dislike is his claim. This means there's no way to clear you until D3 (and I wouldn't want an alignment cop or something going "well, I targeted Marth and my action failed last night so I guess...") and the first impression I had was scum trying to delay their death by a day or 2.

Another person I'm quite uncomfortable with is eclipse. First off, I think she ultra misread (or misrepped) this - I read it as Bart >>>>> Marth > Zeus and that flows perfectly with Athena's overall play. Plus I am still very against her given reasons for lynching Zeus, exact same logic as earlier (and echoed by many others) that I'm sure this isn't the best use of our D1 lynch. I can conceivably see scum pushing this lynch, honestly, it's a fast, ez kill.

I'm not taking anything Athena says wrt Zeus (so far) as anything alignment-indicative because of the family relationship. I felt the earlier interaction with Hydra was fine (if a little tunnelly) but he moved on to other cases which I'm a little too lazy to read now because it's 2:44am. Main thing I dislike is the vote on Nightmare now because he's not getting lynched today and I feel there could be much better uses of his vote.

My earlier vote on Bart was because of his overly defensive reaction, and I'm still really disliking what I'm seeing. I'm sure there's a lot more to say about Athena aside from his Zeus interactions, and I'm not fully understanding this explanation - several people (off the top of my head, Fable, Via, Bibbon) were scumreading Zeus, so do you think any of them are scummy also? If I'm even reading you correctly? I think he's trying to hop on Snike's (supposedly pretty legit, I'm sorry I really haven't read it thoroughly yet) wagon on Athena 

@Eurykins yes, I'm more willing to dismiss kirsche tunnelling as meta and I don't think it's as alignment indicative as compared to someone else doing it. I didn't think Satsuma's 'tunnelling' was that, if at all; more of newb defense and not knowing what to say or do. No other read on Eury because I really don't have the mood to read your D1 thesis atm sorry

@Refa seems to be playing as per normal, don't recall anything in particular sticking out, I initially tagged him because I wanted to respond to his earlier tag but I don't really have anything to say so w/e lol

Keeping the bart vote, I think I'll get one more post out but if I collapse before that I'm happy with my vote staying on Bart. Don't see a need to switch over to Marth because I'm sure there's enough people online but I'd be ok with that based on the claim alone.

 

[Jaybee]

oh fyi i might not be up for phase end because it's 2:53am and it ends at 6am and I have work in the morning

[Mystic Arcanum]

On 4/10/2018 at 4:57 PM, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

What made you go back and read your role pm? This is the most suspicious thing that’s happened so far imo.

##Vote: Bartozio

I've had times I've had to go back and do that for clarifications on how a part of my role works. Imo it's NAI. You found this to be the most suspicious thing?

[Athena_57]

41 minutes ago, Zkirsche said:

I'd probably vote Bart over Athena right now but I keep flip flopping on Athena, Athena should claim and state their reads.

I mostly stand by my previous reads from 21, with a few exceptions

Marths roleclaim makes him slightly more likely to be town in my eyes.

Bartozio's post was... disappointing to be honest, I was hoping for more.

Zeus's post was something I guess? A bit passive and not too impressive, but better.

 

Let me get this clear, you want me to claim my role? Do others agree with this?

5 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Another person I'm quite uncomfortable with is eclipse. First off, I think she ultra misread (or misrepped) this - I read it as Bart >>>>> Marth > Zeus and that flows perfectly with Athena's overall play. Plus I am still very against her given reasons for lynching Zeus, exact same logic as earlier (and echoed by many others) that I'm sure this isn't the best use of our D1 lynch. I can conceivably see scum pushing this lynch, honestly, it's a fast, ez kill.

I'm not taking anything Athena says wrt Zeus (so far) as anything alignment-indicative because of the family relationship. I felt the earlier interaction with Hydra was fine (if a little tunnelly) but he moved on to other cases which I'm a little too lazy to read now because it's 2:44am. Main thing I dislike is the vote on Nightmare now because he's not getting lynched today and I feel there could be much better uses of his vote.

 

That's how it was intended, yes, with Marth>Zeus because I don't think a Zeus-lynch gives us anything. Not completely sure about that anymore though.

That vote will be moved when we have to consolidate, it's just there to show where I currently stand. I'll be around about 1 hour before phase end, that'll be 23:00 for me (I have an exam tomorrow so I'm checking out after that).

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

3 hours ago, Refa said:

"At this point, I'm inclined to believe zeus is just Town but confused. He doesn't have much direction in his posts, and he's mostly just agreeing with people critiquing his play instead of trying to defend himself from eclipse and others. Even if he does flip scum, we won't really get an idea of who could be related to him; so far, only Bibbon (and me) have had second thoughts about lynching him. Still, he's probably the best candidate for a lynch, since I'm getting the feeling that even if we push him on later days we won't get much more than what we have right now."

Is really suspicious.  He doesn't explain how not having much direction makes Zeus town, and then goes into hypotheticals on "what if" Zeus flips scum.  Yeah, wouldn't that be crazy?  And then ending with "oh, but he's the best candidate to be lynched".  This is actually so scummy.  Don't know what to make of Snike's claim, though.  My gut is that it's more likely to come from town, I really don't get why scum would claim ROLE MILLER.  Would like more opinions on this role, because as it is, I wouldn't lynch Satsuma.

I reread the post and I remember rewriting that same post about three times, except I didn't check properly and just moved text around. I was originally considering Weapons as the best lynch, but dropped the idea after some additional thought. Zeus was supposed to be the best "last resort" lynch if we couldn't agree on anyone more substantial, and we had to pile onto a Day 1 lynch quick, since he has shown that he's willing to do the same thing straight for three pages, and I don't think much will change tomorrow or the day after.

I think that Zeus spent a lot of time dilly dallying, with no real aim except to survive, which to me shows he's relatively uninvested except in not getting lynched, a trait I've found to be more common in Townies than scum, especially true for newer players. In hindsight, he could also just be neutral instead of actually Town, but I just don't think he's Mafia.

[Zkirsche]

What about the Junko/me stuff you said you would read later and I asked for opinions of. Junko is a very real wagon with 3 votes don't dismiss it please. Also there's 3 horus left and currently you're getting lynched. I going in the next 30 mins so I'd much rather you claim now.

Snike's post is completely unreadable I would liek to know what the scummy stuff in Athena's post is in a tl;dr if possible.

[Zkirsche]

39 minutes ago, Snike said:

i'm typing an argument to athena's 21 post rn but is there actually that much of a sentiment for a junko turbo? I thought he was ok when I read last night; have not thoroughly read these few pages

Junko currently has 3 votes along with Bart/Marth so he's as big a wagon as those two.

[Jaybee]

Alright, time to see how far I get on Bibbon! I think she's scum, regardless of what Fable says about her meta.

1. The reluctance to divulge info. I don't see the benefit of you hiding your scumreads on Day 1 at all, you mentioning them but not revealing them gave me the impression that you were scared they would backfire and look bad on you. Which I think is very scummy.

2. Athena's initial wagon. You said you thought there was scum on the wagon and... that's it? I mean, if you say there's scum on the wagon but you don't do anything about it that sounds scummy to me. Appearing to contribute, but not actually providing any meat.

3. The tone of this was overly defensive, same as Bart's earlier post that got me to vote for him. I think easily getting frustrated on early phases is more of a scumtell because there's more pressure on you, and you seem to get very angry over nothing.

4. The waffling on the Zeus vote. You were fine with him, very much in agreement that he should be vigged, then suddenly ??? you voted him? You said you found this 'manipulative' and you phrase it here as though it's a scumplan of some sorts? (I lost my train of thought here, apologies). But, to be frank, Zeus is playing the worst I've ever seen; do you think this post is actually some kind of scum play? Because I just see someone who has no idea what's going on and doesn't care to figure it out. So either he's making some insane meta play, or it's actually just bs and you're scum who decided to double down on an easy lynch.

would look for a d2 lynch, i don't think there's enough time to go for her today.

[Zkirsche]

Also gonna sheep Refa's logic on the role it's much stronger than I thought in scum's hands. Again it's very provable dunno why JB is criticising that aspect? Oh no we'd have to wait until D3 to lynch if it's fake?

[Mystic Arcanum]

Didn't realize how little time there is to deadline, and I have to go home and get stuff before rehearsal so I have to leave even before then. So let's do some ISO work.

Athena still feels off. They apparently never resolved their original problems with Soysoy (see my issues with that earlier) yet when revoting Soysoy it feels like they felt the need to add further/new justification for voting there. The interaction with Zeus feels like more of the "look how townie I am, trying to help people figure out what to do and being all forgiving/clarifying" behavior. I haven't been able to read Zeus's specific posts but from the ones I can see in Athena's ISO I can realistically buy Zeus being lost town, Athena's responses just feel extremely fake. 

If anyone that's townreading them can explain the case for why they're town, I'm all ears. For the time being though I plan to vote Athena as soon as I can find the last votecount and make sure I'm not hammering out of nowhere. :cold_sweat:

[Mystic Arcanum]

##Vote: athena_57

[Snike]

This might be over the top but

tl;dr on athena; interaction with satsuma is bad, changes reads on bart w/o really elaborating (looks like distancing), does not scumhunt zeus (padding), is overly reactionary to the point where I find most of his content had to be pressed out of him, and lastly he just quote mined me on page 21 to undermine my point about Bartozio.

I am oversimplifying but yeah @Zkirsche

[Athena_57]

Fine, I'll claim then.

Each night I can select 1 person who gets a quicktopic with someone else selected by someone with the same ability as I have. I can't target myself.

[Snike]

Half-Networker?